Homebrew tabletop game system thread the II

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Kaelan, huh? I have no real idea what you're talking about.

I'm actually trying to take a very generic view- who are these men, what do they do and not do? I don't think the details make much difference as long as you're still dealing with hereditary warrior-aristocrats. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "English model" versus "French model," because I think my argument more or less works even if you change the details of who creates knights, or exactly what a knight's rights are.

About the only thing that really changes it is if you redefine the giving out of knighthoods to be a generic recognition of social service or importance, which has little or nothing to do with war. Which is the modern British tradition, in which spirit you can actually have something like Sir Paul McCartney.

But the idea of such a man being a "knight," in the feudal-warrior sense of the word, would have been complete nonsense, so that model isn't applicable to a place like Kuquan, where the only way a merchant prince sounds likely to get a title of nobility is if he has his own army to provide him with a fighting force at his back.

[Panzersharkcat]

(OOC: Well, I apologize to Sorchus for acting like an ass about his character and lack of posting.)

[Kaelan]

Kaelan, huh? I have no real idea what you're talking about.

the rest of the line goes
... because you've been stitched up a kipper.

It's Naval slang for a poor person being selected at pseudo random for an odious task or trouble.

Hence the expression “can you smell fish” i.e. I can see somebody nearby is going to be handed a job that nobody wants.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I was in the process of writing up a long complicated schpiel (no, no a spiel, this one was definitely a schpiel) on the subject of specifically Kuquani knighthood, and the historic accidents and antecedents, what the law has to look like for feudal privilege to have a place, the pressure of fighting actual monsters, battlefield obsolescence, just war theory, vows and how the polytheistic tradition changes that, when it occurred to me that it was heading straight into tl;dr territory and I should just give you the short version.

Essentially, "warrior aristocrat" is an oxymoron. Those two concepts are pulling in different directions; in theory, there's little difference between a true knight and a gamist paladin, apart from that a good knight is supposed to have less of a ramrod up the arse and more of a sense of humour.
For most of the period though, only the rich can afford the kit needed to be an effective knight, which means that at the worst you quickly get to the view of the ruling class that William holds- parasitic thugs grinding the faces of the poor.

There are book length tangents to be taken here, but the short version (again) is that while defence is the first duty of a lord, if he wants to be taken seriously anyway, the mechanics of power and governance, and the pragmatism of the battlefield, are inherently pulling in the other direction, away from paladinhood.

What I think Kaelan means is that the French took the ideal model more seriously, the English were more corrupt, more prone to dirty fighting and dirty deals- but they're really just points on the same continuum, and the individuals involved were scattered all over.

Kuquan? Well, from the actions of all three Barons and the Count, as contrasted to the bachelor knights and knights- banneret who stood and fought, if you want to guess that the higher in rank they are the less of a true knight they're likely to be, there may be some truth in that.
Also Carfax suffers in this regard, as it has a healthy share of outsiders come to stand watch over the remains of Old Carfax and the Tower, chiefly the monster hunting Order of the Oriflamme; the best of the locals (mostly dead now) rose to the challenge of competition, the worst let the order do all the work.

Eliska may or may not be about to be handed a kipper; depsnds on how Sorchus plays it. Perhaps it would be better, at that, than a political poisoned chalice.

[Simon_Jester]

Kaelan, huh? I have no real idea what you're talking about.

the rest of the line goes
... because you've been stitched up a kipper.

It's Naval slang for a poor person being selected at pseudo random for an odious task or trouble.

Hence the expression “can you smell fish” i.e. I can see somebody nearby is going to be handed a job that nobody wants.

It was actually the part about the knights that I had no idea what you were talking about.

For most of the period though, only the rich can afford the kit needed to be an effective knight, which means that at the worst you quickly get to the view of the ruling class that William holds- parasitic thugs grinding the faces of the poor.

You can make the argument- plenty did, in real life, and I'm not even saying it's wrong.

But if they're parasitic thugs, they're a relatively genteel class of thug, who like to keep up appearances and have a code of conduct to justify not trying to kill each other. Coming in from outside the system and making threats is- I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's damned dangerous.

What I think Kaelan means is that the French took the ideal model more seriously, the English were more corrupt, more prone to dirty fighting and dirty deals- but they're really just points on the same continuum, and the individuals involved were scattered all over.

If that's what he meant, fine- but it really isn't about whether I take knightly codes seriously. I, personally, won't dispute that all knights are, approximately, thugs. But if so, they're thugs who have their own internal culture, their own rules about when it is and isn't permitted to use or threaten to use violence.

Larric would like to think they're not all thugs, and certainly thinks they shouldn't- but when you strip away the peasant's tendency to bow and scrape as a survival mechanism, his attitude toward the martial nobility is "you get to be in charge, you play your elaborate dances with each other, and as long as you keep killing monsters I'm content with it."

To pick another analogy that expresses my original idea in the same words, William put himself in the position of a random street tough who starts picking fights with the made men of a Mafia family. By making William one of his soldiers, Capo Alfred can extend William some protection, but becomes answerable for William's actions. Which can make for trouble with other capos.

Kuquan? Well, from the actions of all three Barons and the Count, as contrasted to the bachelor knights and knights- banneret who stood and fought, if you want to guess that the higher in rank they are the less of a true knight they're likely to be, there may be some truth in that.

I know what the barons did- but all I know about the count is that he got blown up. How does that reflect poorly on his character?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

It's not so much what Antar, Count Riedell did as what he didn't, which was offer any real leadership. He tried to stall, temporise and mediate, and generally look on the bright side and hope nothing would really kick off, for far too long- long after it was obvious to most of his own followers and advisers that it was too late for that. Some useful things were done in his name by his court and friends, but it's becoming obvious now that most of them happened without him.

He failed to get his family and feudal dependents, the barons, operating in anything like concert, failed to organise resistance, get anyone else on his side (most people still aren't sure what it was), convince anybody of anything really- he may personally have died on his feet and with honour, but you could have hung his tabard on a hook and got as much command presence out of it in the runup.

That, at least, is one thing you cannot accuse the new countess of, on the basis of her reputation anyway.

[Panzersharkcat]

(OOC: Actions of Oliver?)

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

I thought it was actually Alfred's move- hm.

Dice happen. They both come up a fraction short of absolute top form. Oliver launched a sequence of outside, sweeping moves intended to force Alfred to honour the threat, presses him close, making him parry more and more wildly- both put on a very fine performance inded, but Alfred's using a heavier weapon with more momentum; after three or four passes he tries to use that, and strikes at Oliver trying to retake the initiative and force him back-

Oliver uses that, takes it on the shield, leaving a dent in the boss, and steps forward inside Alfred's guard faster than he can pull back, brings his sword up to Alfred's throat.

'Good fight. Have you got enough energy left to make it best out of three?'

[Panzersharkcat]

(OOC: It was. I posted back here.)

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

That fits, unfortunately. He is fractionally faster than Alfred (init 14 as opposed to 13), and the fast flurry of blows works a lot better with a lighter weapon, he can defend at the cost of a sore arm and lumps pounded out of his shield, take it on that and counterattack, force Alfred onto the back foot;

where the openings are, Alfred swings for Oliver's right side forcing him to move his own heavy thing, the shield, across- recovers and goes in for the head, a target Oliver can't afford to not protect; he plays it well, though, moves into it and lest Alfred push him down and back so he can dip round and come up from beneath Alfred's guard and force him back onto the defensive, try his own flurry- which ends as above.

(Rolls ten, twelve under, twos and threes on the dice, everywhere.)

Several people in the audience, including Andrea, are actually applauding. Technically Alfred did lose, but he looked good doing it. What now?

[Panzersharkcat]

"Indeed it was. Though I have the energy, I do not have the time. I must get back to my prior business before this duel." He offers to shake his hand, smiling at what he considers to have been well-played on Sir Oliver's part.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Sir Oliver will certainly take Alfred's hand, and as they go their separate ways Andrea moves over to Alfred. 'That was brilliant- I think you'd be as well keeping your armor on, because the treasurer does not look like a happy man.'

Important things to do, then- whatever Larric and Verone get up to, Eliska's religious connections coming back to haunt her and curse her with politics(not that the rest of the group know this yet), the probable arrival of Sir Detrick and his force, unless the Countess decides to ambush them- which doesn't seem to be happening;

and oh, yes, Will's words to Alfred afterwards. I'm in two minds about posting this, because while it's in character and the player's wishes, it is also more or less equivalent to a suicide note- at the very least an attempt to talk himself into the grave.

Crap. I did say something along the lines of play it to the character and damn the consequences, so- the edited highlights, I suppose I could paraphrase but, better in his own words;

Assuming they are alone at this period William will continue:

“Well Alfred, I suppose we should get our positions clear before we continue any further with this pretence.” Mulling it over in his head and coming to the conclusion that you may as well be in for a pound as well as a penny.

“I’m a wanted man back home, for enough crimes to hang several times over. At some point you come to the conclusion that there’s no point worry about it as it will catch up with you eventually so you might as well enjoy the ride. It has lead me to live a more blasé view of the world and life, some would say Jaded.”

“I’ve seen enough of the noble classes to view them with the contempt they disserve. Most of them think no further than themselves and that everybody below them is to be trodden on if convenient. Now let’s look at you. You’re poor by the standards of your class. You’re lands must not be up to much if you feel so little about leaving them behind, or you don’t stand to inherit them, and finally we’re at the back end of a vicious little war that knocked the noble class for six so badly that few of them actually want to fight another war at this moment. As a result of this your chances for battle field employment are slim to none.”

“Yet despite all of this you did what few, if any, of your kind would do. You actually stood up for me. You could of quite easily informed Sir Oliver that I was a free agent and no man of yours, or let me cut him down before being jumped by all and sundry in the room and then stated quite accurately my position with no comeback on you.”

“Despite all of my experiences with knights I actually like and respect you. The question is where do we go from here?”

“I am happy to enter service with you, hell – I’ll even put aside my mercurial tendencies to ask for payment upfront. We just need to reach an accord on terms of service. Given the lifestyle that you’re going to have to live in order to advance in this mess that is our country at the moment I suspect that regular lethal danger will be standard , I doubt the survival rating of other servants you may employ will be that high – given the example we saw at the fort on the way here.”

“So then, Sir Alfred. What terms are we to work under? Do we call for a priest for an official ceremony (though I don’t place much stock in bothering the gods or expecting them to back up such things), or is the spoken word between warriors enough?”

[Panzersharkcat]

(OOC: I just realized that when Sir Oliver paused with the blade at Alfred's throat, he could have just kicked him in the balls while his guard was down. That would have been low, though.)

He nods to Andrea and says, " A moment, please." He takes William aside and listens to what he has to say. He purses his lips over the fact that he's basically walking around with a marked man and then thinks over the fact that he's also walking around with a werewolf.

"Prior to your little outburst, I would have considered it, even if I prefer men-at-arms who can keep me in check. But now? You nearly got me killed unnecessarily and you have effectively made me an accessory to your eluding of justice with your confession. So no, I will not take you on in my employ. We operate on the same terms as before this incident until our business is concluded, after which we will depart, but with one additional proviso: embarrass me like that again and I will not hesitate to crush you. You evaporated much of our credibility with that stunt and I will not have that happen again." He starts to walk away before turning around and saying, "I know it's quite odd coming from me, but do try to think of the social consequences of your actions before doing them, William. I would hate to have to lose somebody with as much potential as you." He leaves to go talk to the treasurer about paying for damages.

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

(OOC: I just realized that when Sir Oliver paused with the blade at Alfred's throat, he could have just kicked him in the balls while his guard was down. That would have been low, though.)

Also, thinking about it... a man who gets kicked in the balls is apt to make sudden, unpredictable, convulsive moves along with the standard "curl up" response. When someone's holding a three-foot piece of sharp steel near your neck, it's not a good time to make him twitch.

"Prior to your little outburst, I would have considered it, even if I prefer men-at-arms who can keep me in check. But now? You nearly got me killed unnecessarily and you have effectively made me an accessory to your eluding of justice with your confession. So no, I will not take you on in my employ. We operate on the same terms as before this incident until our business is concluded, after which we will depart, but with one additional proviso: embarrass me like that again and I will not hesitate to crush you. You evaporated much of our credibility with that stunt and I will not have that happen again." He starts to walk away before turning around and saying, "I know it's quite odd coming from me, but do try to think of the social consequences of your actions before doing them, William. I would hate to have to lose somebody with as much potential as you." He leaves to go talk to the treasurer about paying for damages.

Oooh. That's gotta sting.

[Kaelan]

The turn down, or the bill for the vandalism?

Besides, would you rather Alfred found out later or in advance?

[Agent Sorchus]

vaguely planning to find a quiet space to test and work on her idea, Eliska gets up early, and realises that it's much earlier than she actually planned- still full night, stars and moons high in the sky, and she feels an energy, an enthusiasm for this that she hasn't been able to hold on to since she was very young.

Since going off to the seminary, in fact. (Resistance rolls made and failed, and)- head burbling with confidence, that this is where her path lies, this is what she has to do, and she ought to go and scramble down the broken side of the castle, and follow a particular path- a path that Rohal may stumble across at the right moment actually-

yes, this is effectively a bewitchment and a summoning, one done with a carrot rather than a stick; and it is also a use of one of the powers granted by the goddess Krylanya.

She works this out when, in a small clearing, she sees the paladin she met earlier with the rest of the party, when you all first arrived at the castle, standing waiting for her.

'Welcome; we need to talk. Come, sit down.'

"So talk." So long as I can't get to my own work I might as well find out why. "Not everyday people go so far out of their way to speak to me, though that could be signs of the winds changing."

"I'm going to give it one guess first, you're new and I'm even more recent of a visitor. One with a recent history. You need something done or have a plot of some sort you want me to go in on." Yes, obvious though the less obvious is that this is closer to a turf war. Of course ECR gave some of it away since he speaks of this coming from my past so... we'll go from here.

PS: almost lost the post dammit. Thank god firefox remembered it when I closed the tab.

[Kaelan]

they're a relatively genteel class of thug, who like to keep up appearances

So thats what harrying the north was about, along with all those hunting 'accidents'.....

[Kaelan]

you have effectively made me an accessory to your eluding of justice with your confession

OOC
let me get this straight. Currently you have:
A - Been travelling with a wearwolf
B - Been travelling with a non-guild sanction mage
C - Aided in the killing of an elvin hero and his sister.
D - Taking a fellow knight to stand trial on the say so of a court prostitute.
E - Taking said knight to stand trial in a hostile contry to him.
F - Hedged very close (if not broken) most of the rules in a duel that was called off.
G - Detonated large holes in the castles walls

and you're worried that I've broken a few minor laws in Radulfs lands (where being a mage is punishable by burning at the stake - I guess larric's not going there any time soon) and you could be linked to it by association

[Simon_Jester]

The turn down, or the bill for the vandalism?

A or B? The answer is "Yes."

Besides, it wasn't vandalism, it was a training accident.

you have effectively made me an accessory to your eluding of justice with your confession

let me get this straight. Currently you have... and you're worried that I've broken a few minor laws in Radulfs lands (where being a mage is punishable by burning at the stake - I guess larric's not going there any time soon) and you could be linked to it by association

I think he's more worried that you almost got him killed less than an hour ago.

I mean- hell, would you let a man go from "almost got me killed" to "hire him as my bodyguard" that fast? I wouldn't.




Hmmm. Just to look through the legalities...

OOC

A - Been travelling with a wearwolf

Which is not illegal. Being a werewolf is legal in Auvaine. Ripping people's lungs out is illegal, but there is no evidence that this werewolf has done so, now is there?

B - Been travelling with a non-guild sanction mage

Arguably illegal, but in mitigation, the mage fully intends to get matters sorted out with the guild soon- it's refusal to work within the guild system, active defiance and standing outside of it, that really invites serious legal consequences. Also, the laws are not de facto enforced to the same extent here as they might be elsewhere, and a law which is not enforced is somewhat less of a law.

In some places, Alfred's actions would be more illegal, but then he's not in those places, is he?

C - Aided in the killing of an elvin hero and his sister.

Which is not illegal, and in point of fact may be actively encouraged under the circumstances; most kingdoms have rules against besieging their fortresses in order to touch off a race war.

D - Taking a fellow knight to stand trial on the say so of a court prostitute.

Catarin is not, so far as we can determine, a prostitute, and the "fellow knight" in question was found at the head of an invading mini-army. Most nations have rules against invading them, so that is not illegal.

E - Taking said knight to stand trial in a hostile contry to him.

The country is hostile because of the invading mini-army. Most countries have rules against invading them, so that is not illegal.

F - Hedged very close (if not broken) most of the rules in a duel that was called off.

Which William got him into in the first place, so while it might speak to Alfred's character that he was willing to break the rules, it doesn't do so in a way that argues for hiring William, now does it?

G - Detonated large holes in the castles walls

Which was a training accident- high spirits, a bit of property damage, all in good fun so long as no one gets blown to bits.

[Kaelan]

That's the legal point of view in the area we are in at the moment. Now run through those answers if you were standing in Radulf's home town - where William broke the law.

The point was not the turn down of a job (which i fully understand and expected), it was the associated with a criminal part. as for the fun of part G - I'll defer that to our happy treasurer over there.

I mean- hell, would you let a man go from "almost got me killed" to "hire him as my bodyguard" that fast? I wouldn't.

No, but then again Alfred is between a rock and a hard place with this one. On one hand he's not too happy with William at the moment (understandable). On the other he has already publically declared that William is in his employment as his man.

William present him with the option to finish off the declaration with slightly more control rather than "please don't embarrass me in the future". I can think of nothing more embarrasing than poor Alfred trying to attain William (did I spell that right?), only to be anounced that William never took the cloth in the first place and Alfred knows it. Also, given Alfred's statement to the court and Oliver any action William takes within this realm will be linked back to Alfred and thus his family. Would you really want to pat William on the head and say 'off you go'. Further more, do you really want a man who had no qualms about challenging a knight (he was reaching for his axe at the time) to be galavanting around the coutryside undertaking actions under your name?

Hire to protect me - Hell no
Hire to prevent future blowback and retain a measure of control - maybe yes.

[Simon_Jester]

That's the legal point of view in the area we are in at the moment. Now run through those answers if you were standing in Radulf's home town - where William broke the law.

The point was not the turn down of a job (which i fully understand and expected), it was the associated with a criminal part. as for the fun of part G - I'll defer that to our happy treasurer over there.

However, the 'confession' does add another item to the list of William's liabilities as a retainer. Alfred may be quite willing to accept responsibility for his own actions, or the actions a subordinate takes while under his authority. That doesn't mean he's willing to shelter someone from a third party for some past transgression- so he would be naturally reluctant to take an oath that requires him to do so.

...

Hm. When we're talking about 'escaping justice,' there's an alternate interpretation (not the one Panzer meant, but interesting to think about). It's not just that William's an outlaw in his home town, that's only one part of it.

The other part, and while I'm not sure I agree with the interpretation it's certainly relevant to Alfred, is that William's also just now escaped social justice for the consequences of his actions- the ass-kicking he 'deserved' for his behavior toward Sir Oliver- and has done so at Alfred's expense. That's going to make him a bit more ill-disposed toward William for the time being, since (remember, genteel class of thug keeping up appearances) he probably identifies more with Oliver's side of any dispute between William and him.

I mean- hell, would you let a man go from "almost got me killed" to "hire him as my bodyguard" that fast? I wouldn't.

No, but then again Alfred is between a rock and a hard place with this one. On one hand he's not too happy with William at the moment (understandable). On the other he has already publically declared that William is in his employment as his man.

William present him with the option to finish off the declaration with slightly more control rather than "please don't embarrass me in the future". I can think of nothing more embarrasing than poor Alfred trying to attain William (did I spell that right?), only to be anounced that William never took the cloth in the first place and Alfred knows it. Also, given Alfred's statement to the court and Oliver any action William takes within this realm will be linked back to Alfred and thus his family. Would you really want to pat William on the head and say 'off you go'. Further more, do you really want a man who had no qualms about challenging a knight (he was reaching for his axe at the time) to be galavanting around the coutryside undertaking actions under your name?

Hire to protect me - Hell no
Hire to prevent future blowback and retain a measure of control - maybe yes.

The flip side of that is, what self-respecting man allows himself to be blackmailed into offering someone a job on the spot? Especially someone who is of very questionable suitability for the position?

Given his capacity for bull-headed pride, I don't think Alfred would react that way if he decided William presents an unacceptable blowback risk in the long run. I'm pretty sure the thing he'd think it wise to do would be to simply threaten or try to maul William now, preemptively. He tends to think with his hammer a lot, after all.

[Kaelan]

what self-respecting man allows himself to be blackmailed into offering someone a job on the spot

That would be one who made a public statement of having already given said man the job, and then offering to engage in mortal combat to back up said statement.

[Panzersharkcat]

(OOC: And remember, this was done in character as Alfred, which I think fits him well. OOCly, the reason I accepted Oliver's challenge on behalf of William is because I would rather not have to go through the hassle of killing a party member and having to roll up a new character, even though that was not a good idea for me in retrospect because Alfred could have died, making me do it rather than you. In-character, I would say he is peeved that Bryan died and would rather not lose another member of his traveling group, especially one who he felt was useful in the past. You could kind of say it was a one time thing along the lines of "I owe you a little bit, hence I'll cover for you this time.")

[Kaelan]

I owe you a little bit, hence I'll cover for you this time

Hence why william is not pressing the issue.

[Simon_Jester]

OOC: Alfred strikes me as a basically decent man who's very short on foresight. He doesn't worry too much about long-term consequences of his impulsive decisions. Sometimes those decisions are generous, sometimes destructive.

Indeed, I think nothing he's ever said encapsulates his character better than:

"I will pay for the damages!"