In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

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MKSheppard
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:Even all that aside, things like whole areas with no music set, the horrible skyboxing where outside is obviously just inside, and the gimmick puzzles and map areas with no guidance and only one path through mark it as a terrible (and terribly old-fashioned) game.
I got it as part of the 75% off sale; and I have to agree with you. It's a very 1996-2001 shooter.

(So was Half Life 2, but HL2 actually got released before it was *too* horribly outdated)

So we have fuckloads of platforming puzzles; but no fucking save other than checkpoints. Furf.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by Starglider »

MKSheppard wrote:I got it as part of the 75% off sale; and I have to agree with you. It's a very 1996-2001 shooter.
(So was Half Life 2, but HL2 actually got released before it was *too* horribly outdated)
'2001 feel' doesn't have to be a problem. BulletStorm is a 'traditional' run+gun corridor shooter with silly weapons, parody macho characters that spout one-liners and no explicit cover mechanic. The engine is not awful but definitely a few years behind the state of the art. It has a dumbed down gravity gun and lots of scripted events. The game still manages to be great fun and absolutely beautiful though, due to very strong art direction and solid game mechanic design. The characters are caricatures but that works fine in an over-the-top game, they don't wallow in filth and misery the way DNF does. I think it could use a couple of HL2 style sections for variety, but that's just personal preference. In fact BulletStorm makes both DNF and Rage look rather sad, considering how much cheaper to make it was than both of those.

P.S. I like the Errant Signal take on what the real problems of DNF were.
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by MKSheppard »

Starglider wrote:'2001 feel' doesn't have to be a problem.
The problem is that playing DNF reminded me of why game designers abandoned many of the ideas of the early FPS genre; such as health packs, huge sprawly levels, and stupid gimmick puzzles to show that your game was somehow *special and unique*.

STRAK Sez:
For instance, near the start you have to 'interact' with a statue display to create a pathway forward, and then carefully walk up it without falling off. In the 90s this would have been an amazing piece of scripting and interactivity, these days it just brings the game to a screaming halt and forces the player into a lame platforming section.

The first 25 minutes or so is actually pretty decent -- the game has just the right feel of Duke self importance such as signing a copy of his book "Why I'm So Great" (which was mentioned in Duke Nukem 2), the over the top casino he owns; the Throne that takes you down to his Duke Cave, and the part where the door says "Red Keycard Required," to which Duke says: "Keycard? I don't need no fucking keycard." and forces the door open.

Sadly, at that point, the game went down hill and became increasingly an irritant with tower defense segments and the fucking shrink ray segments.

Ugh. Shrink ray.

The only way I was able to get through that stupid "walk through an engine" sequence was because I found a way to enable the cheats and slowed the game down to 25% of normal speed.

That's another thing I'd like to talk about.

Gearbox disabled the console, which meant no such thing as 'no-clip mode' to help us bypass lame platformer or puzzle sequences; and in a final insult, made it so that in order to get the "infinite health" "infinite ammo" cheats; you had to...have beat the game on normal mode.

Great Catch-22 there.

I'm no great shooter player, and even on the easiest difficulty level; the damn game was pretty hard; the designers preferring to spam enemies in huge hordes at once; and then doing dumb shit like making the Octabrains be capable of grabbing rockets fired at them, and then throwing them back at you.

That doesn't sound so bad, does it?

Well, see the game makes it so that only turrets or explosive weapons can damage bosses; and then inserts floating octabrain hordes in at least two boss battles.

FFFFFFFFF.

Then there's the stupid seesaw and physics puzzles, where you have to find blue barrels and put them into certain things; such as a shipping container in order to tip it over to give you a platform to jump onto.

Very very Half-Life 2, which was you know, ceasing to not be fun in 2004.

Then there's the dumb monster truck sequence through the ghost towns, which seems to be only there to make use of content that was already built, rather than for any coherent reason.

The monster truck sequence wasn't that bad...but it went on for far too fucking long, and required you to get out of the truck far too many fucking times to find gasoline containers to refuel the truck; similar to how HL 2's airboat sequences went on forever, and required you to dismount to do all sorts of lame shit.

Especially irritating is when you enter a room and find THREE gasoline containers, and Duke grabs only one....and you have to then stop and fill the truck up AGAIN later in the game. Ugh.

Oh, as a final fuck you -- they went with the checkpoint mechanic so common to games now for saving...which works great for linear shooters which don't have platformer puzzles, but becomes a big FUCK YOU when you encounter a platformer segment; as you can't save as you 'unlock' each segment of the platformer puzzle.

Oh, and the Load times. I don't mind load times when you first start the game or a level, but when you die in a level, it takes forever to reload, which is kind of stupid. Isn't all the content already in memory?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by Stark »

It really shows that 90s shooter game design was really feature-driven. This engine has looking up and down! This engine has movable boxes! This engine has simple switch scripting! This engine has break-away walls! This engine has 'real time' lights! Any of these things are trivial and largely irrelevant, but we're big sellin points back in he day. after all, people felt that new things were being done and limits removed, and it's no like mature engines existed.

In the 90s, being able to use drinking fountains was notable. Of course people put as much of that shit in (the first three levels) as they could.
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:It really shows that 90s shooter game design was really feature-driven.
Yes, it does.

I'm sure you've seen this image many times before, and want to beat the shit out idiots who use it in debates to show how games have gotten "dumbed down".

Image

DNF had many points where I was simply stuck, and had to consult an online walkthrough, because there was some *secret* I had to find -- case in point, the Duke Dome crane sequence where you have to find the battery. Why the hell can't I just use the battery that's lying RIGHT THERE?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by MKSheppard »

Stark wrote:Fuck that crane. Trapped in a silent, ugly area to solve a 'puzzle'? Great!
It would have been better as a stress reducer; e.g. you finish a lengthy battle through an area full of bad guys; then you get access to a crane, and can laugh maniacally as you destroy an entire area and kill hordes of bad guys as you drop the wrecking ball on them.

Of course, it doesn't work that way. Like you said, it's more of a checkbox for features -- "have faux racing sequence, have faux tower defense sequence, have faux [insert name] sequence", rather than integrated in any meaningful way to the overall game.

It's the same way with the minigames for Fallout or Mass Effect to do things like hack consoles or pick locks. They quickly become an exercise in repetitiveness. Maybe we should be able to use our NPCs to do them for us. BRILLIANT I KNOW?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by Starglider »

MKSheppard wrote:The problem is that playing DNF reminded me of why game designers abandoned many of the ideas of the early FPS genre; such as health packs, huge sprawly levels, and stupid gimmick puzzles to show that your game was somehow *special and unique*.
Health packs were removed mainly because regenerating health smoothes the difficulty. If you can go into any given area with a variable amount of health, the difficulty varies hugely. Think how many players of classic PC FPS games save-scummed when they lost too much health, because doing badly in one area made the next area too hard. You can load up players with health so it averages out, but creating anxiety through resource management (of health) is counteracted by reduced anxiety in individual enemy encounters due to the reduction in lethality. Seeking out health packs also broke flow, which is much more relevant with the 'constantly streaming content tunnel' model than the old 90s 'wander around an area killing things' model. Essentially developers decided that having one scarce resource (ammo) was a sufficient tool for creating resource conservation anxiety (where desired), and that making the player find health recharges was both redundant and counter-immersive (since in real life it's easy to pick up ammo, hard to instantly be healed).

Sprawly levels were dropped partly due to higher detailing meaning large spaces are more expensive to make, and partly due to developers (specifically modellers and artists, not programmers) being too afraid that the player might skip some of their precious and expensive content. A certain amount of dumbing down was also involved, in that players are assumed not to have the patience to double back from dead ends or fiddle with a map screen.

Gimmick puzzles, I guess, although there still seem to be plenty of those around. Dead Space and BulletStorm are chock full of 'spot the thing to grab with your gravity gun' sections, although they're more to emphasise that you are a human being who can manipulate your environment as opposed to an autonomous gun drone who can only interact with the world by shooting it.
The monster truck sequence wasn't that bad...but it went on for far too fucking long, and required you to get out of the truck far too many fucking times to find gasoline containers to refuel the truck; similar to how HL 2's airboat sequences went on forever, and required you to dismount to do all sorts of lame shit.
I personal like vehicle sections in FPS in general and HL2 in particular, but DNF got it utterly wrong and I won't excuse box-stacking puzzles in any FPS (why are they in Deus Ex HR? WHY?).
Oh, and the Load times. I don't mind load times when you first start the game or a level, but when you die in a level, it takes forever to reload, which is kind of stupid. Isn't all the content already in memory?
This is developer laziness; less work to just call your load routines again. Occasionally on consoles there isn't enough memory to snapshot all the mutable state, but there is absolutely no excuse on PC.
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by MKSheppard »

Starglider wrote:Sprawly levels were dropped partly due to higher detailing meaning large spaces are more expensive to make, and partly due to developers (specifically modellers and artists, not programmers) being too afraid that the player might skip some of their precious and expensive content. A certain amount of dumbing down was also involved, in that players are assumed not to have the patience to double back from dead ends or fiddle with a map screen.
Also because they realized that players would not have the patience anymore to spend 10 minutes looking for the path that they just happened to miss. What do you mean, I have to jump puzzle up to that cave up on that cliff?

Additionally, did sprawly levels genuinely add to immersion? There are only a few games where it did (System Shock), and many where it didn't.

In most cases, all they do is just add frustration as you try to remember where you were during that quest to find the elusive keycard.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Re: In Defense of Duke (or So I Finally Played DNF)

Post by Starglider »

MKSheppard wrote:Also because they realized that players would not have the patience anymore to spend 10 minutes looking for the path that they just happened to miss. What do you mean, I have to jump puzzle up to that cave up on that cliff?
The fundamental problem there is the stupid puzzle with inadequate cues, presumably imported from sucky old-school adventure games. Large environments just let you hope the devs weren't that retarded for a bit longer than you would if you were staring at a dead end.
Additionally, did sprawly levels genuinely add to immersion? There are only a few games where it did (System Shock), and many where it didn't.
Suspension of disbelief is a rather personal thing, but I think so. Corridor shooters just have too many 'you can't go that way' and I find it gets more noticable and annoying the more I play. Despite being beautiful and dotted with press-B-to-zipline and press-A-to-pull-obstable out of the way, Bulletstorm's endless locked doors and walls of rubble really grated on me. Much moreso than the equally linear HL2, probably because I've been spoilt by recent open world games, and because there were no vehicle sections to give a sense of space. But compare to say the Battlefield Bad Company games, which are reasonably open without being open world. The single player is a linear trek through specific locales, but many of the major encounters are in clusters of buildings (hamlets, city blocks, industrial complexes) with varied paths and interconnecting spaces. The vehicle sections usually have some choice of route to give you some feeling of freedom. They could afford to do this because the interiors were relatively barren military bases and unpopulated houses, and because the games weren't heavy on scripted sequences you absolutely had to be in a particular spot for. We need some combination of procedural content and flexible scripting/AI direction so that you can have Bad Company style environments while keeping all the environment detail and cinematic stuff.
In most cases, all they do is just add frustration as you try to remember where you were during that quest to find the elusive keycard.
Open world games solve much harder navigation problems so this is no excuse (from a game design perspective).
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