SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

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SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

This thread is inspired by the "all game avatars are the same"or more specifically the link within it named "top then female characters that don't use sex to sell". Namely, many people disagreed with it, including myself.

A point of interest is the objectification and/or over-sexualization of women. Women that serve little other purpose than eye-candy, with ridiculously revealing outfits (often made even more ludicrous under the circumstances in which they live), having perfect proportions, hair and skin at all times, displaying themselves seductively with flimsy justification for doing so, but most of all, not wearing a proper fucking bra and not screaming about back pain.

However, this is not always the case: some developers have recognised this and moved beyond. Developers that have made women in video games that have lovable personalities, identifiable emotional scenes, memorable moments, admirable intellect and/or courage, valuable company during game-play or at least not have breasts the size that chime with "back pain".

So, rather than constantly whine about the same old same-old, why not celebrate these characters by a community-based voting?

I plan to to have two stages for this:
First, is naming all the characters that deserve to be put on the list, according to (openly arguable and contestable) criteria I lined out below.

Second phase (and thread) is voting: taking a finalised list and voting for characters you believe are good examples. If the board's software is unable to automate the process (I have yet to test it to its full potential) I will gather votes. The details of this will be given when the thread is made.

A third thread may be created to give the finalised ranking results and discuss them.

Now, unto the criteria on which competitors may be selected. Remember, these are not rules, but guidelines and you may feel free to challenge or rectify them.

- The character must be a visibly identifiable as a human woman (duh!) with her own personality and voice.
The whole point of the competition. The character must be obviously a woman or given identity of a woman from early-on in the game.

For this reason, Shodan does not count, because while she may be feminine, she's an AI that is female for completely arbitrary reasons. She never acts like a human woman.
Chel should also be on grounds for disqualification because we learned absolutely nothing about her during her game, Portal.

That said, the character should not necessarily be human, merely identifiable as such. She may be a robot or alien or elf, it only matters that she mostly looks like a human and acts like one.

- The character must featured either as the player avatar or as a major character in at least one video game (duh again).
The character must be shown in a video game either as someone the player controls or as someone the player regularly has contact and some kind of relationship with. Characters that only appear in the distance or only occasionally should not count, as it would draw a lot in a little picture

-The character should not have an over-sexualized appearance, including clothes that clearly are there only as fan-service or to pander to immature demographics.

This is a line that is a bit hard to draw. To try and to draw one, here is an example: a woman may ,in a video game, have large breast and still be ranked, as that alone should not disqualify. However, when the same woman has a cleavage that you can dual-purpose for smuggling operations and wears tight shirt to emphasize this even in an environment that such clothing would be impractical, does (high heels do count here). Lack of supporting bra that results in "jiggle physics" is definitely damning.
Fetish gear or similar can be a bit difficult case-by-case, because it may border the rule but not cross it. If it is in-line with the character's personality and background as well as the setting's theme or stylistic elements, it may get a pass.

- Only behaviour and appearance in canon games should count.

This includes cameos, guest appearances (a rare event in video games) or even novelization (as the character is different from the novel-writer's standpoint than from the game designer's standpoint). For example, Samus Aran should be considered from the perspective of the Metroid Series and her appearance in Super Smash Brothers Brawl should not count.

- Only the quality of character, not the game, shall be judged.

Because if we start, we'll never fucking stop, especially once the more obscure games start ranking up.

-Behaviour that are required or added for reasons of game design should also be accounted for.
How a character behaves in cut-scenes and in-game can be different, as game design has priority over story-telling and characterization.

For example, one may make the conclusion that Alxy from Half-Life ep 1 and 2 can be subservient and overly trusting to men in leadership positions based on the fact that she always lets the player (who is supposed to be a man) go with his own pace, never questioning the rate of progress or the reasons for the player's actions, as well as almost always allowing the player to take the initiative.

If you listen to the development commentary, this falls apart. You'll learn that originally Alex did comment on the player's pace more but designers found that play-testers were immensely annoyed by this and disliked Alxy because of this. Since it was important for players to like Alxy (after all, you'll be spending most of the episode with her) and her nagging interrupted the enjoyment of the game, this was cut. In fact, according to the commentary, Alxy was supposed to lead the player most of the episodes (in ep1, in the Citadel, she was supposed to lead the way after using a console to get a map) but designers cut this. So this behaviour isn't due to a reflection of Alxy's personality, just a game design decision.

- Out-of-game behaviour should be judged differently than in-game behaviour.

The rule of thumb about the position of character should be the game developer's vision. How marketing men and how the designers treat the character should be accounted for.

That is all I can think of as criteria.

I'll start about competitors.

Cate Archer from "The operative: No one lives forever".
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If there is one character that should be titled "feminist hero", it is Cate Archer.

While gamers often like to mention how they were surprised about how Samus when it turned out to be that she was a woman in the original Metroid on the NES.
Cate made it quite obvious that she was a woman and did not hide the fact, using make-up and dressing fashionably (for the 60's). Yet she is just as competent and deadly as her peers expect her to be. In fact, she does not only have to be strong-willed against her enemies but also against her bosses (well, bosses' assistant) and peers as she enters a field that previously was left to men. She has to keep this when her first handful of missions turn clusterfuck upside down due to circumstances beyond her control. All while being a fairly likeable and compassionate young woman (and the feminist message is done good, that is, not shoved up our ass a repeatedly when we didn't ask for it).

Jade of "Beyond Good and Evil" (which actually wanted to be "between good and evil", hence having no connection to the philosophical work of the same name).

Image

Jade is an interesting and very active character. While not only a reporter of a self-published magazine, as well as a photographer-for-hire, she is a martial artist and a racer, all while taking care of forgotten orphans of the war she lives in.

Alyx Vance of Half Life series, from Half-life 2 and onwards. The picture could have been better but there is only so much dirty fandom pictures I am willing to take up with.

Image

Because sooner or later, she'll come up and we might as well get over with it.
Alyx in many sense is actually quite a dream girl: charming and smart, but also strong and tough. Valve could have easily taken her with the typical sexed-up, machismo action girls that many other video games taken up. However, guided by one of their better wisdom and policies, they decided to make an effort to establish a relatively realistic human being instead. The result is someone that is indeed extraordinary in skills and modest in appearance, but is still believable and likeable precisely because she is human.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Thanas »

Cate Archer takes this IMO.

Jun'ko Zane from Freelancer is also another good addition. Competent, intelligent and actually a character with a believable backstory.

I would also name some BG characters, but most of the characterization there depends on how you interpret the dialogue, so I am not sure they fit.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

Cate Archer takes this IMO.
I don't plan to make a single-competitor winner. Rather, one member can vote by naming as many characters the member favours and ranking will be done by the quantity of votes.

Can get a bit messy, but its worth a try.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Tritio »

Aha, I posted that list! 8)

I nominate Tifa Lockhart.

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Yes, she is sometimes depicted as having overly large boobs and the mini-skirt and her character is there as a love interest in the Cloud-Aerith-Tifa love triangle. However, she does seem like someone who can take care of herself. In FF7, she ran a bar (7th Heaven) and joined a resistance movement, in Advent Children, she isn't oversexed, supports Cloud emotionally, takes care of the orphans and helps Cloud run his delivery service.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

I'll second Jun'ko Zane.

Others to consider:

Joana Dark (Perfect Dark)
Imoen (Baldur's Gate series)
Terra and Celes (Final Fantasy 3/6)
Ophelia and Lita (Brutal Legend)
Zoey (Left 4 Dead)

Some of the above don't have a lot of development given the nature of the games they're in (L4D, Brutal Legend), but all stand as discrete, distinctive characters in their right, un-reliant on exaggerated sexual characteristics (with some exception made for Brutal Legend, it's heavy metal and thus half the point).
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Grif »

Advent Children cannot be considered as a video game, no? Can we take movies based on video games into consideration?

But her behaviour and personality in FF7 still warrants a nomination, despite her rather sexed up appearance. She shown to be likeable and independent at the same time.

Can I also nominate Yuna based on FFX only and not the fan-service that is FFX-2?
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by loomer »

The handful of women in Jagged Alliance spring to mind right away - the mercs you control are strong, skilled individuals, and the female enemies tend to be the same way. Definitely not an overly sexualized appearance.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Chiaki Tachibana from SMT: Nocturne.

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Plucky near high-school graduate thrown into post-apocalypse, finds her own way up and eventually becomes an avatar of strength and personal fortitude.

Argilla from Digital Devil Saga and Digital Devil Saga 2.

Image

Meant only to be a combat-testing program, she regains the personality of the dead researcher she was based off of, and subsequently helps rebel against the dictates of the program she's in.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Crap, missed the edit window...

Chiaki:

Image

Argilla:

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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Thanas »

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote: Imoen (Baldur's Gate series)
Yes, Imoen was the one I wanted to name from that serious, but considering how her character arc got manhandled in BG2....

Still, as a character she is well worth it.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by weemadando »

Cate and Jade certainly win for me in this round. They really are well developed characters in their own right and the fact that they are women is used for far more than just: "LOOK AT TEH BOOOOOOOOOOOOBZ!"
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Ford Prefect »

Tritio wrote:I nominate Tifa Lockhart.
While she got ... sexed down in Advent Children, there's really no denying that much she was pretty designed to be sexy. She's in complete contrast to Aerith, who is much more modestly dressed and ... proportioned.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

Just to note: you don't have to name characters that are necessarily extremely strong and capable. We're not making a top ten feminist game character list, this tread was only inspired by one.
Advent Children cannot be considered as a video game, no? Can we take movies based on video games into consideration?
I'd rather not. Movies are, after all, created by directors, rather than the video game's developers. Besides, you have to use different characterization for a movie than for a video game.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Zixinus wrote:Just to note: you don't have to name characters that are necessarily extremely strong and capable.
That tends to be implicit, though, especially if it's a protagonist. Nobody likes weepy and incompetent heroes.

Furthermore, when one talks about 'strong' female characters it's usually in stark contrast to being there for sex. There's very little middle-ground.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Tritio »

Ford Prefect wrote:While she got ... sexed down in Advent Children, there's really no denying that much she was pretty designed to be sexy. She's in complete contrast to Aerith, who is much more modestly dressed and ... proportioned.
Indeed, you are correct. I was thinking about which one to nominate. Now that you mention it, Aerith did summon 'Holy' to repel Meteor. However, she was killed by Sephiroth soon after in one of the most memorable scenes in FF7. However, what stayed me from nominating her was that she didn't deliberately sacrifice herself. Her death was tragic, but unintended. She wasn't especially strong or capable, despite being a 'Cetra' or Ancient - the first race to live on the planet. Actually, I don't remember her doing anything at all besides selling flowers and dying. :)
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

That tends to be implicit, though, especially if it's a protagonist. Nobody likes weepy and incompetent heroes.
True, but you can have a hero that is just a little weepy or clumsy.

April Ryan of The Longest Journey
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She is nothing less than a college student learning how to paint when she finds that there is a fantasy world contrary to her very technological one. Technology doesn't work too well there but magic does, and is vice versa in our own world (because some artists can't really tell the fundamental difference between science and religion, thus have ideas like these but that's another matter). Expectantly, she isn't very good when she finds that she has to do things like defeat evil wizards (well, a particularly powerful alchemist in this case), sneak into secure facilities, defeat sea monsters, escape from the police, etc. Yet, she manages to do it all in her own way.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Samuel »

Don't forget Zoe Castillo from the sequel.

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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Gramzamber »

I nominate Chris Lightfellow of Suikoden III.

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Though one of 3 selectable protagonists in the game, she was arguably the best (because I say so).
She's the leader of her nation's most prestigious knight chapter and is shown to be a capable leader, fighter and tactician throughout the game.
She always wears proper armor as a knight, and her casual clothes on the right are more feminine, but practical clearly not for titilation.
She also outright kills the game's equivalent to Neelix/Jar Jar Binks. As in, annoying idiot put there for the sake of being annoying.
I will always love her for that.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Ford Prefect »

Tritio wrote:Indeed, you are correct. I was thinking about which one to nominate. Now that you mention it, Aerith did summon 'Holy' to repel Meteor. However, she was killed by Sephiroth soon after in one of the most memorable scenes in FF7. However, what stayed me from nominating her was that she didn't deliberately sacrifice herself. Her death was tragic, but unintended. She wasn't especially strong or capable, despite being a 'Cetra' or Ancient - the first race to live on the planet. Actually, I don't remember her doing anything at all besides selling flowers and dying. :)
Aerith actually is pretty capable, when she's in her element. She's street smart, has been dodging the clutches of Turks for around a year, wholly concocts the crossdressing mission and so on. She doesn't beat people to death with her bare hands, but did become god. :)
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Serafina »

Wait, a female heroine without either a chainmal/plate bikini or ridicolous cups on her armor?
Now that is worth a lot of credit.

Personally, i want to mention the heroines from Supreme Commander.
Ok, they are not really fleshed out, but no character is - but most characters in the game are female, and they are not sexed-up either.
Image Image Image

And i am really eager to see what happens to them in SupCom 2 - Clarke is dead, but Dostya might be revieved (they dropped a hint the size of a fatboy for that).

Otherwise, i would vote for Jun'ko and Cate Archer - Cate first, since she actually is a main character.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

I nominate Chris Lightfellow of Suikoden III.
Damn, from your description alone, I want to play that game just to see this rare spectacle of a sensible medieval-ish warrior.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by TheFeniX »

Keira Stokes from FEAR 2
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Just recently played the game and she seems to have her shit together besides end-game, which is more plot contrivance than anything. The only annoying part is her not offering anything with how to get into the elementary school, but that's likely due to the before mentioned HL2 Alyx behavior and that FPS convention dictates you'll be cut off from her before anything actually happens. You don't see much of her during the game, but she's constantly talking to you. In combat, she's competent enough to hold her own but also more than willing to drop a few F-bombs when things go to shit.

Jan Ors from Dark Forces
ImageImage
Live action or in-game avatar, Jan not only dragged your ass out of the fire or let you know that you're about to run into something that will require ass-dragging, she could also hold her own against Stormtroopers and Dark Jedi alike. That and she's one of the few SW game characters they didn't give Jedi powers to at some point.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Zixinus »

OK, a bit of revising. I'm not sure how to do this, but I think these should added below the criteria list, as posting guidelines:

- Please introduce us to the character you nominate.

While screen-shots are not needed yet still appreciated, the important thing is to introduce us to this character and tell us why she is awesome/likeable/memorable/effective. The point of this competition is to celebrate female characters in video games that made the game they were in better because of their character.

Do this because there is a first-hand experience gap: the niceties of say, Jade will be a bit lost to those who haven't played her game of Beyond Good and Evil.
And yes, I admit that I am guilty of not doing this fully and properly as well.

- Feel free to name several characters from the same game, but introduce them separately.

Self-explanatory, this is due to avoid grouping. For example, is Terra from FF3 and Celes from FF6 or both or what?

Also keep in mind: the character must be a major character that the player is either plays as or regularly meets and has some kind of relationship with that goes trough most of the game.

And this bit to the criteria list:

- Character can be on any side of the player, as long as there is some sort of a direct and acting relationship involved.

Don't be afraid to mention baddies if you believe that their personality and relationship with the player contributes to the game's experience.
Otherwise, i would vote for Jun'ko and Cate Archer - Cate first, since she actually is a main character.
You can vote both: my plan is that ranking will be determined by quantity alone, unless there is a tie or "undervoting".

Otherwise, I am not sure whether the characters you mention should count. I didn't play Supreme Commander: how fleshed out are they? I understand that they aren't given a deep personality, but aside the question of sexualization, how good are they as characters? Do they deliver effective emotional moments, interesting revelations or gameplay? Do you (or rather, could anyone) find them as useful people to have on your side? Can you emotionally and/or rationally identify with them?

Judging by the fact that you are curious about their fate does seem that they would be worthy nominees.
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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by Jade Falcon »

What about Quistis from Final Fantasy 8, she never seems over the top in the manner in which she is dressed, nor is she outrageously out of proportion.

Image

Another good nomination would be Kate Walker from the Syberia series of adventure games. She's usually modestly dressed, sensibly proportioned and not a Xena type warrior woman.

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Re: SDN Women of Video Games Competition (p1)

Post by fgalkin »

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Fall-From-Grace, from Planescape: Torment. A chaste succubus cleric who runs the Brothel for Slating Intellectual Lusts (that's where you go to exercise the other part men think with, the one with a brain inside). Is a Lawful Neutral healer, despite being from a Chaotic Evil demon race. Doesn't wield weapons, but can kill with a kiss.

She is also has some of the best characterization of all game characters, male or female. And, being a character in an RPG, the player's interactions with her and her interaction with other party members is one of the more memorable parts of the game.

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