The Force Unleashed - yes, I know I'm late to the party.

[Darth Onasi]

Sorry pal, KotoR's writing is awful too. People just think it isn't becasue... shit, I actually don't know why. People tell me Mass Effect has a good story too, so I think it's some kind of infection. At least TFU doesn't have visors of +5% to-hit.

And what is so irrevocably bad about KOTOR's writing? It may not be award winning but it was decent for what it was.
Oh and lol RPG enhancement items are bad right?

TFU doesn't appear to contradict itself, which frankly is all that matters. Ford's whole point is that by deliberately going outside canon the game was able to do shit it would never have been able to do otherwise. I'm with him because I'm a movie purist and thing the EU is pretty much entirely shit so I'm totaly unintersted in the canonicity issue.

Hey I don't give a rat's ass about the EU and like I said earlier, I'm deeply critical of the half-assed attempts to fit KOTOR in it, and not simply because they violate the sanctity of the player defined character, but because it's totally unecesarry.

I'm of the opinion that TFU violates and undermines movie canon with it's ridiculous "secret apprentice" premise and the whole "har har I kicked off the Rebellion" horseshit.

[Darth Onasi]

Yeah I got that, but then you're comparing it to a game like TFU which is all about how many Stormtroopers you can crush with a TIE fighter on the head.

I hear that TFU's character development takes place in the beat 'em up sections? My complaint, which isn't exactly complex, is that KotOR's development for 'bad' characters defaults to 'mass murderer', much as 'bad' characters in Mass Effect default to 'racist asswipe'. Starkiller actually has a character: his motive is not just revenge, it's a desire to get approval from his father figure.

And his method for gaining this approval is... gratuitous murder.
At least KOTOR and Mass Effect give you the option to *not* be the scumbag.

Right up until the end of the game it's obvious that he still has faith in Vader and believes that they can kill the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son.

Which shows that he's an idiot, and hay look stealing plot points from TESB ftw.

[Stark]

Oh dear. I'm not going to explain to you why it's funny that you laugh at TFU's ridiculous plot but expect to be shown what's wrong with KotoRs ridiculous plot.

Since TFU doesn't have to fit with the movies, who cares if it doesn't?

[Darth Onasi]

Oh dear. I'm not going to explain to you why it's funny that you laugh at TFU's ridiculous plot but expect to be shown what's wrong with KotoRs ridiculous plot.

I know it's flaws, I just think those flaws are forgivable. TFU's aren't.

Since TFU doesn't have to fit with the movies, who cares if it doesn't?

Because it says it does?

[Stark]

*sigh*. That was my point, which you disagreed with. You just like KotoR and don't like TFU. Oh noes character is bald wah wah! I hate the design, but I can recognise that's irrelevant to the plot.

And who CARES what it says - EU stuff says the same thing and it's horseshit. It went outside the box and Ford thinks that's more interesting.

[Darth Onasi]

*sigh*. That was my point, which you disagreed with. You just like KotoR and don't like TFU. Oh noes character is bald wah wah! I hate the design, but I can recognise that's irrelevant to the plot.

True, but I also believe KOTOR has more merit in it's design and story than TFU will ever have.
That doesn't mean I think it's perfect, because it isn't.

And who CARES what it says - EU stuff says the same thing and it's horseshit.

It gets irritating when some idiots take to heart some off-hand comments about TFU being "g-level" canon "just liek teh movies!!" (not speaking of here mind you).

And well it's like this. There's this one Infinities comic about Han Solo deserting from the Death Star and Darth Vader personally going off to arrest him only to be hampered by Boba Fett who's wielding a lightsaber and duels him, allowing Han to escape in an A-Wing. Not only is it EU, it's Infinities. Nobody would ever regard it as canon.
That doesn't mean I don't get to balk at the sheer ridiculousness of it. Same here.

It went outside the box and Ford thinks that's more interesting.

Problem is, outside that box was a festering swamp.

[Ford Prefect]

And his method for gaining this approval is... gratuitous murder.
At least KOTOR and Mass Effect give you the option to *not* be the scumbag.

Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, Starkiller kills people, no that is not the defining part of his character development.

Which shows that he's an idiot, and hay look stealing plot points from TESB ftw.

Jesus, what is the point in talking to you? Starkiller is presented as having blind faith in Vader as a defining character element; IE. he is an emotional stunted sociopath who unconditionally loves his father. Shaak Ti even says that Starkilleer is foolish for trusting Vader as implicitly as he does. Vader even implies that Starkiller was a fool for believing in the promises that were made to him. The entire subtext of that scene on Coreillia was that 'you might be powerful, you might be strong, but to Vader you will never be Luke Skywalker'.

"har har I kicked off the Rebellion" horseshit.

Why do people persist with this nonsense? Starkiller kicks off nothing, given he's just a pawn in Palpatine and Vader's plan. That's ridiculous, but it's in-character for Palpatine, given his ludicrous Death Star II bait gambit.

[Darth Onasi]

Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, Starkiller kills people, no that is not the defining part of his character development.

Oh yes it is. He's Vader's attack dog. He's marketed as Vader's attack dog. His character is defined as Vader's attack dog. And he's too damn dense to ever be anything other than that until he's absolutely forced to.

Jesus, what is the point in talking to you? Starkiller is presented as having blind faith in Vader as a defining character element; IE. he is an emotional stunted sociopath who unconditionally loves his father. Shaak Ti even says that Starkilleer is foolish for trusting Vader as implicitly as he does. Vader even implies that Starkiller was a fool for believing in the promises that were made to him. The entire subtext of that scene on Coreillia was that 'you might be powerful, you might be strong, but to Vader you will never be Luke Skywalker'.

The fact that they lampshade that he's an idiot doesn't make it any better you know.

Why do people persist with this nonsense? Starkiller kicks off nothing, given he's just a pawn in Palpatine and Vader's plan. That's ridiculous, but it's in-character for Palpatine, given his ludicrous Death Star II bait gambit.

I wasn't specifically referring to Skinhead in that regard, but to the overall plot. Though for him to have played any part in it at all is ludicrous, and it makes the supposed Rebel leaders look like idiots if they couldn't do this by themselves as per the standard EU methodology of making the Rebels into complete assholes who shouldn't have won.

[Stark]

True, but I also believe KOTOR has more merit in it's design and story than TFU will ever have.
That doesn't mean I think it's perfect, because it isn't.

DOUBLE SIGH. This is my point, that you're incapable of being objective about this because you like KotoR and you don't like TFU.

Problem is, outside that box was a festering swamp.

In your opinion. Frankly I think they need to do it more, because we're all sick of the same 'Sith xyz omg!!!' nonsense that only sells to nerds.

[Ford Prefect]

Oh yes it is. He's Vader's attack dog. He's marketed as Vader's attack dog. His character is defined as Vader's attack dog. And he's too damn dense to ever be anything other than that until he's absolutely forced to.

That's what he is at the start of the game. Do I have to put 'character development' in all caps and bold or will you actually start reading?

The fact that they lampshade that he's an idiot doesn't make it any better you know.

Yeah, it's not like his character conflict stemmed from trying outgrow that state of mind, huh.

I wasn't specifically referring to Skinhead in that regard, but to the overall plot. Though for him to have played any part in it at all is ludicrous, and it makes the supposed Rebel leaders look like idiots if they couldn't do this by themselves as per the standard EU methodology of making the Rebels into complete assholes who shouldn't have won.

Except all that Starkiller was to the rebellious senators was the Jedi figurehead to give them legitimacy. It's why Bail goes looking for Shaak Ti and gets his ass kidnapped: because he wants a Jedi to lead their rebellion.

[Samuel]

The idea that lots of people think that Knights of the Old Republic is good and that The Force Unleashed isn't is broken. TFU is just about the only Star Wars game based on a vaguely original premise which is at all interesting: people complain that the plot violates canon and is retarded, but who the fuck cares when it's twenty million times more interesting that 'hey, looks like the Sith are trying to take over the galaxy' or 'this blind dude is totally God now but you can kill him anyway'. TFU had character progression which, though in ways cliche, was at least competantly written, well foreshadowed and thematically consistent, whereas in KotOR it's more like 'character development' actually means 'I randomly mass murder people because, you know, Bioware'.

The Dark Side ending has you betraying your companions and slaughtering 5 of them. Given the fact your memory has been wiped they are essentially the only people you know in the universe.

Seriously, anything darkside in the game is on the "extreme puppy killing".

People seem to think KoTOR is good because it appeals to our inner desire for absolute power. People generally fill in the script and ignore what actually occurs in the game.

Seriously, why the hell is Carth attracted to Raven? Do you force persuade your companions? That would actually make the game more interesting if you could. The game seems to be more open, but it is very... constrained.

[Admiral Drason]

Seriously, why the hell is Carth attracted to Raven? Do you force persuade your companions? That would actually make the game more interesting if you could. The game seems to be more open, but it is very... constrained.

Well in KoTOR II you can do just that, so I'm sure it can be implied that yes Revan was force persuading Carth right from the get go.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually you only have to kill three of your party if you play a female sith with force persausion in KOTOR

Carth will still love you, but leaves the party, and your loyal minion wookie kills his best friend.

[Samuel]

Actually you only have to kill three of your party if you play a female sith with force persausion in KOTOR

Carth will still love you, but leaves the party, and your loyal minion wookie kills his best friend.

If you take the wookie into the forge he goes beserk and you have to put him down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skEfgF9_gpk

1:15

Is it just me or is Revan completely nuts? Do normal people go around mind controlling others on a whim?

[Trogdor]

The idea that lots of people think that Knights of the Old Republic is good and that The Force Unleashed isn't is broken. TFU is just about the only Star Wars game based on a vaguely original premise which is at all interesting: people complain that the plot violates canon and is retarded, but who the fuck cares when it's twenty million times more interesting that 'hey, looks like the Sith are trying to take over the galaxy' or 'this blind dude is totally God now but you can kill him anyway'. TFU had character progression which, though in ways cliche, was at least competantly written, well foreshadowed and thematically consistent, whereas in KotOR it's more like 'character development' actually means 'I randomly mass murder people because, you know, Bioware'.

The problem is, TFU isn't fun to play. A game which is that unpleasant to play has to have fucking masterpiece of a story in order to be considered good, and Unleashed doesn't have that.

In all honesty, I really wanted only two things out of Unleashed: to feel evil, and to feel powerful. I don't think those are unreasonable desires for a game where you play as a Sith, and I was ready to forgive any other flaw if I got these, but neither was delivered. The way the guy ends up hanging with the rebels stole the evil from the experience, and the fact that storm troopers are a challenge and that your lightsaber is basically a glowing club you have to bludgeon your foes to death with rather than killing them with a slice or two totally takes away any feeling of power. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name another game where you can play as a Jedi and feel weaker than you do in Unleashed.

I sure as hell won't disagree that KOTOR's whole "you must be either a saint or a maniac" thing was stupidly simple, but KOTOR was a lot better to play. It was a hell of a lot less tedious, being a Jedi meant actually being stronger than an elite goon, and, IMHO, I found the characters to be a lot more likeable and original than those in Unleashed. Definetely not perfect, but easily better than Unleashed.

[The Yosemite Bear]

And KOTOR had the wonderful sociopathic droid, who needs jedi minions when you have a fully kitted out HK-47....

[Ford Prefect]

The problem is, TFU isn't fun to play. A game which is that unpleasant to play has to have fucking masterpiece of a story in order to be considered good, and Unleashed doesn't have that.

Fun is way too subjective for you to be able to make that statement. I had dangerous amounts of fun and I could almost certainly make a comprehensive list of everything wrong with TFU. You think that KotOR was better to play, but I found it tediously boring.

In all honesty, I really wanted only two things out of Unleashed: to feel evil, and to feel powerful. I don't think those are unreasonable desires for a game where you play as a Sith, and I was ready to forgive any other flaw if I got these, but neither was delivered. The way the guy ends up hanging with the rebels stole the evil from the experience, and the fact that storm troopers are a challenge and that your lightsaber is basically a glowing club you have to bludgeon your foes to death with rather than killing them with a slice or two totally takes away any feeling of power. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to name another game where you can play as a Jedi and feel weaker than you do in Unleashed.

You are gauranteed to kill over a hundred enemies in every level of TFU except Bespin and the medical ship. Yeah, your enemies are implausibly tough and yet you kill them by the absolute bucketload. In the first section of the first level I stood in the middle of twenty Storm Troopers and dropped TIE fighters on them. Using Force push makes them fly around the room like feathers on the wind. Shit, you can pull bits off the Death Star the size of a couple of cars and smash them in to your enemies. I spent more time clubbing people to death with their friends and allies than I did worrying about whether or not I was being shot. How can you look at game that has basically no challenge and think 'yep, this needs to be easier'?

[General Zod]

You are gauranteed to kill over a hundred enemies in every level of TFU except Bespin and the medical ship. Yeah, your enemies are implausibly tough and yet you kill them by the absolute bucketload.

By "implausibly tough" do you mean "they can withstand more hits from a lightsaber than they should" or "are difficult to kill"? Because the only time I had any serious trouble killing shit was with the Darktroopers and the AT-ATs towards the end when you're trying to fend off dozens of them at once.

[Darth Onasi]

DOUBLE SIGH. This is my point, that you're incapable of being objective about this because you like KotoR and you don't like TFU.

I *am* being objective. I like KOTOR because it's a decent RPG with a passable story. Yes it rehashes the plot of the original movies, but it does it in an interesting way. Yes it uses the "zomg Sith will take over the galaxy" thing so often abused by the EU, but who cares? Fuck the EU. Like I said, sometimes the tried and tested method can be good.

In your opinion. Frankly I think they need to do it more, because we're all sick of the same 'Sith xyz omg!!!' nonsense that only sells to nerds.

Outside TFU's particular box I mean.
I'm the first one who thinks Star Wars needs to move beyond "hay the Sith" and the baggage from the movies.
But I don't think TFU does that in a very good way, if it does that at all. Sure the personal turmoil of a character is good to show.. if they're at all interesting. Skinhead is a generic Sith/Jedi from the get go.

That's what he is at the start of the game. Do I have to put 'character development' in all caps and bold or will you actually start reading?

Yeah, he changes at the very end after being repeatedly beat over the head with the fact that Vader is an asshole.
This character development does not make.

Yeah, it's not like his character conflict stemmed from trying outgrow that state of mind, huh.

It would help if that character was at all interesting or likable to begin with.

Except all that Starkiller was to the rebellious senators was the Jedi figurehead to give them legitimacy. It's why Bail goes looking for Shaak Ti and gets his ass kidnapped: because he wants a Jedi to lead their rebellion.

Yes, what better way to lend legitimacy to your insurgence than being led by a member of an order publicly discredited throughout the galaxy as tricksters and traitors to the Republic.

Seriously, anything darkside in the game is on the "extreme puppy killing".

To be fair, Palpatine himself isn't exactly the posterchild of evil restraint in RotS what with his demented laughter and UNLIMITED POWER!!

People seem to think KoTOR is good because it appeals to our inner desire for absolute power. People generally fill in the script and ignore what actually occurs in the game.

I'd think that's more TFU's territory, KOTOR has a light side path too you know.
Yeah Bioware's limited understanding means that the paths are either "puppy killer" or "the messiah" but the story overall was decent for it's time.

Seriously, why the hell is Carth attracted to Raven? Do you force persuade your companions? That would actually make the game more interesting if you could. The game seems to be more open, but it is very... constrained.

Some people are attracted to strong, evil women you know.
Seriously though, it's evident that Carth thinks he can change and "save" Revan even after he runs away after she starts a-killin' (evidenced by the cut but largely intact female dark side ending where Revan is convinced to kill Bastila and die along with Carth and the Star Forge to end the Sith threat).

[Trogdor]

How can you look at game that has basically no challenge and think 'yep, this needs to be easier'?

Because as much as I like them, I suck at video games and could never quite get the force pushes to work right. Half the time I tried I ended up throwing crap at nothing, and the other half I hurt myself by trying to throw explosive stuff at people and failing. Maybe it's because I played Unleashed on the Wii.

I will concede that a lot of what I brought up in my last post is subjective, though I will also add that the nerfing of the lightsaber and the force lightning in Unleashed was just bad. The lightsaber is one of the coolest parts of SW, and it was practically worthless. Force lightning should be one of the best parts of being a Sith, and it was only really useful when compared to the lightsaber.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah, he changes at the very end after being repeatedly beat over the head with the fact that Vader is an asshole.
This character development does not make.

I'm clearly talking to a brick wall. If you don't think betrayal and a realisation that your father doesn't love you are valid angles for characterisation then you are a moron. If your standards are so high, why don't you tell us what you believe would be valid for character development.

It would help if that character was at all interesting or likable to begin with.

A character doesn't have to start out likeable to become likeable, or to be interesting, or to do be well written.

Yes, what better way to lend legitimacy to your insurgence than being led by a member of an order publicly discredited throughout the galaxy as tricksters and traitors to the Republic.

Clearly you missed how in the movies the Rebellion doesn't buy into Palpatine's bullshit? Clearly it is completely unreasonable for Bail Organa, a close ally to the Jedi Order and a personal friend of Yoda, to want Jedi at the front of the rebellion. Clearly, when most if not all of the people in the Rebel Alliance don't believe the lie that the Jedi were traitors, having a Jedi or two around would be a bad thing. Clearly, the best way to present the revolt against Palpatine is to not try and oppose the lie upon which his First Galactic Empire was built.

I will concede that a lot of what I brought up in my last post is subjective, though I will also add that the nerfing of the lightsaber and the force lightning in Unleashed was just bad. The lightsaber is one of the coolest parts of SW, and it was practically worthless. Force lightning should be one of the best parts of being a Sith, and it was only really useful when compared to the lightsaber.

What the hell? Force Lightning is broken. It's the easiest way to kill the most powerful enemies in the game, like AT-ST variants, the big Junk Golems and Rancors. It even kills multiple enemies at a time - I usually used Force Repulse for crowd control, but Lightning is potentially more useful because it does more damage.

[Darth Onasi]

I'm clearly talking to a brick wall. If you don't think betrayal and a realisation that your father doesn't love you are valid angles for characterisation then you are a moron. If your standards are so high, why don't you tell us what you believe would be valid for character development.

They are valid angles. If done well. TFU doesn't do it well.
And for a start I'd not have Darth fucking Vader as the father figure. It's stupid, gratuitous, everybody knows he's no father figure and it undermines his character development in the movies.

A character doesn't have to start out likeable to become likeable, or to be interesting, or to do be well written.

But they should be interesting, and not some fanwank guy designed to attract 12 year old boys.

Clearly you missed how in the movies the Rebellion doesn't buy into Palpatine's bullshit? Clearly it is completely unreasonable for Bail Organa, a close ally to the Jedi Order and a personal friend of Yoda, to want Jedi at the front of the rebellion. Clearly, when most if not all of the people in the Rebel Alliance don't believe the lie that the Jedi were traitors, having a Jedi or two around would be a bad thing. Clearly, the best way to present the revolt against Palpatine is to not try and oppose the lie upon which his First Galactic Empire was built.

The leadership doesn't believe it, and having Jedi around would be a bonus, but the galaxy at large still regards the Jedi as traitors. Wanting to put one in as a figurehead is retarded.

[Stark]

I *am* being objective. I like KOTOR because it's a decent RPG with a passable story. Yes it rehashes the plot of the original movies, but it does it in an interesting way. Yes it uses the "zomg Sith will take over the galaxy" thing so often abused by the EU, but who cares? Fuck the EU. Like I said, sometimes the tried and tested method can be good.

Thanks for restating that you like KotoR. I had forgotten. What's sad is that you admit that KotoR has lazy, uninspired plotting and it's good, yet you HATE TFU for having a plot you simply DON'T LIKE. Hilarious. BTW, KotoR good/bad is actually totally irrelevant to the discussion, since Ford's point was 'KotoR unoriginal', which you just agreed with.

Outside TFU's particular box I mean.
I'm the first one who thinks Star Wars needs to move beyond "hay the Sith" and the baggage from the movies.
But I don't think TFU does that in a very good way, if it does that at all. Sure the personal turmoil of a character is good to show.. if they're at all interesting. Skinhead is a generic Sith/Jedi from the get go.

Thanks for agreeing with me, but arguing just because you love KotoR. Ford's covered your inability to understand character (whether the writing in TFU was decent or not, which is irrelevant).

How can you argue so much with people you essentially agree with, just because KotoR is your nerd baby and TFU is so mean and rude?

[Stark]

They are valid angles. If done well. TFU doesn't do it well.
And for a start I'd not have Darth fucking Vader as the father figure. It's stupid, gratuitous, everybody knows he's no father figure and it undermines his character development in the movies.

Thanks for explaining why you don't like TFU and can't be objective about the attributes of it's story. And sorry, a part of the TFU ZOMG SUPAH FIGHTAH angle is that you're Darth Vader's apprentice. Frankly I think it was a good decision as it clearly tells everyone 'this is a game where things are different', like the high-end powers and the comedy physics.

But they should be interesting, and not some fanwank guy designed to attract 12 year old boys.

You mean unlike Carth, who likes characters just because they're tough and evil? Only fanservice with tits is allowed; designing characters and settings to sell games is terrible.

The leadership doesn't believe it, and having Jedi around would be a bonus, but the galaxy at large still regards the Jedi as traitors. Wanting to put one in as a figurehead is retarded.

ITT we discover Onasi thinks it's impossible for Bail Organa to be a conservative Jedi loyalist!

[Darth Onasi]

Thanks for restating that you like KotoR. I had forgotten. What's sad is that you admit that KotoR has lazy, uninspired plotting and it's good, yet you HATE TFU for having a plot you simply DON'T LIKE. Hilarious. BTW, KotoR good/bad is actually totally irrelevant to the discussion, since Ford's point was 'KotoR unoriginal', which you just agreed with.

Yeah it's unoriginal. But my point is TFU doesn't do anything the least bit original (for Star Wars) and the few attempts it does to "go outside the box" fall flat on their faces. Vader would be a bad dad. No, really?

Thanks for agreeing with me, but arguing just because you love KotoR. Ford's covered your inability to understand character (whether the writing in TFU was decent or not, which is irrelevant).

How can you argue so much with people you essentially agree with, just because KotoR is your nerd baby and TFU is so mean and rude?

KOTOR is hardly my baby. I'm simply not a fanboy. I see it's flaws. What I don't see however is what's so objectionable about it's plot.
TFU on the other hand has a useless, downright intelligence insulting plot designed solely to shoe-horn in somebody's pet fanwank character into the franchise.