Mass Effect 3 (Spoilers)

[FaxModem1]

Well, it's not over a shitty ending, but 'false advertising'. At least, that's why they'd go to the FTC. Officially, that is.

[Tasoth]

I may be wrong, but I think why someone would lodge a complaint over the ending and not horrible broken gameplay is that with broken gameplay, it's common to think 'Oh this horrid. They'll patch it shortly'. Which isn't always the case. If the ending is bad, it'd be easy to think you can't patch it since it is the ending.

[Simon_Jester]

There's also a precedent- Bioware is notorious for having botched the ending to "Knights of the Old Republic 2," are they not? So fears that they won't fix the bad ending are very strong, and quite reasonable. Even though it would be a relatively quick, cheap thing for them to fix compared to having to go back and reprogram parts of the game.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

There's also a precedent- Bioware is notorious for having botched the ending to "Knights of the Old Republic 2," are they not? So fears that they won't fix the bad ending are very strong, and quite reasonable. Even though it would be a relatively quick, cheap thing for them to fix compared to having to go back and reprogram parts of the game.

Knights of the Old Republic 2 was developed by Obsidian, not Bioware.

[FaxModem1]

Also, that was Lucasarts pushing the game for a Christmas release.

[White Haven]

A better argument would be Dragon Age 2, and 'the last third of the game' rather than just the ending. As much as I detest how ME3 ends, it's worlds ahead of DA2's wire coathanger.

[Simon_Jester]

There's also a precedent- Bioware is notorious for having botched the ending to "Knights of the Old Republic 2," are they not? So fears that they won't fix the bad ending are very strong, and quite reasonable. Even though it would be a relatively quick, cheap thing for them to fix compared to having to go back and reprogram parts of the game.

Knights of the Old Republic 2 was developed by Obsidian, not Bioware.

Sorry. I'm an idiot.

(hangs "not much of a gamer" sign around his neck)

[Losonti Tokash]

In what way is DA2's ending worse? It certainly made more sense than ME3's and offered some closure at least.

[White Haven]

ME3's ending was quiet well done up until the very end, where it absolutely lost its shit. DA2's latter third or so of the game just started hanging together less and less well, ending in a half-coherent morass. While ME3's tail end was absolutely worse, the overall ending segment to the game was of a higher average quality.

[Zinegata]

ME3's ending was quiet well done up until the very end, where it absolutely lost its shit. DA2's latter third or so of the game just started hanging together less and less well, ending in a half-coherent morass. While ME3's tail end was absolutely worse, the overall ending segment to the game was of a higher average quality.

Yep. Dumping a ton of Banshees and Brutes on you for the final "proper" ME3 battle was at least more interesting than pretty much all of the combat in the entire final third of Dragon Age 2, and that's before we get into how it only happens plot-wise because every Mage and Templar character in the game drank from the "I am stupid" Kool Aid.

[tezunegari]

Well, I finished the game... and I think the ending is actually quite good... until you chose either red, blue or green.

At that point the whole piece false apart.
Instead of the promised 16 different endings it's one ending with different colors - which also kills the whole franchise as the Mass Relays go the way of the Tae-Kwon-Dodo.

Is it really that difficult to write three endings and then show some movies according to my war assets I collected?!
If I try to control the reapers: Lil' Space Hitler gives a voice-over how my attempt is as futile as TIMs would have been because... dam dam daaa I'm already indoctrinated. Then check on the war assets and show me how the allied fleet gets pounded. If I have the right war assets Shepard fights the indoctrination and distracts the Reapers enough for the fleet to fight. If I have enough war assets collected... the reapers loose but at a horrendous cost to the fleet. Show the different war assets fighting and either winning or loosing.

If I try to destroy them: Shepards answers Lil' Space Hitler's synthetic vs. organic propaganda a one-liner: "We'll take that risk..." then shoots.
Reapers slow down. If I have enough war assets the allied fleet wins with low losses and I get to see videos showing who is on my side and what my crew does. You might even include a perfect ending with Shepard surviving if the player achieves highest possible War Asset.

If I try synthesis: Lil' Space Hitler gives a giddy voice-over. "And here is your salvation. Idiots." The allied fleet slows down. The Mass Relays change color to look like the Omega-Relay. Only Reaper can use them. videos show how my collected war assets either fight on and are killed or how the turn Husk. The cycle isn't broken... Finish with an alien ship finding the citadel... and reveal the Yahg.

Why did they even bother with Buzz Aldrin as the Stargazer at the end?! In a perfect ending revealing the Stargazer to be an old Shepard would have been at least a consolation.

And yes, I consider DESTROY the perfect ending, not this borgification shit.

---

How Bioware / EA is going to milk the franchise now requires either a massive retcon (Mass Relays rebuilt with prothean design - see conduit from ME) or a massive change in premise (a new galactic FTL drive).

The "From the Ashes" DLC also doesn't rate $10 - for a single mission, a single gun (simulating the ME1 overheat-style ) and only ONE new character.
THough I have to admit Javik and his interaction with the crew and his experience with the reapers is quite entertaining.
("I prefer my salarian liver raw! - He's right. In my cycle they were a delicacy." or his delivery of "They used to eat flies.")
But for $10 I would have expected a bit more - his recruitment mission plus 2 memory missions perhaps.

[DarkArk]

I thought that destroying the citadel and mass relays was one of the few things that the final ending got right. The relays are fundamentally a system of control made by the reapers that will stunt growth of all galactic civilization. Freedom from the reapers is impossible so long as the relays and citadel remain intact.

Dumping a ton of Banshees and Brutes on you for the final "proper" ME3 battle

I thought the whole ending sequence on Earth was great, and that was a hell of a battle. Only thing is, why did the reaper destroyer not just blow up the missiles while they were sitting out in the open? Suicidal overconfidence? (Wouldn't be the first time for a reaper)

One of the things I thought it really missed out on though was having some sort of control during the final battle, a la the suicide mission. Letting you choose which fleets would be in Sword, Shield, etc. Especially since they built up each of the fleets individually in the war asset descriptions.

[PeZook]

I thought that destroying the citadel and mass relays was one of the few things that the final ending got right. The relays are fundamentally a system of control made by the reapers that will stunt growth of all galactic civilization. Freedom from the reapers is impossible so long as the relays and citadel remain intact.

Oh, come the fuck on. The mass relays can somehow "control" and "stunt growth" of galactic civilization...by providing a cheap, fast and reliable way of interstellar travel?

Totally! What an opressive piece of technology!

[KhorneFlakes]

Unless the Mass Relays indoctrinate people too, there's no goddamn reason to blow them up. The Citadel should probably sealed off, though. I wouldn't surprised if it actually performs minor indoctrination to stop aliens from getting too curious about the keepers or learning about it's functions before the Reapers arrive.

[PREDATOR490]

Dosent really matter... Arrival established that the destruction of a Mass Relay causes an explosion capable of destroying an entire system.
As for the destroy ending... that supposedly wipes out all technology and the galaxy has been cultivated to develop technology in line with Reapers THUS taking out all synthetic life would logical eradicate every VI, ship and technological system. Now the galaxy has suffered the destruction of all FLT

Result:
Shepard just destroyed all FTL for everyone. stranded an armada, completely obliterated solar systems with a mass relay explosions and any Quarians / Geth are now dead as their suits, ships and technology fail.

Congratulations. Shepard just managed to surpass the Reapers in villiany in the space of 5 miniutes worth of an ending.

[tezunegari]

I thought that destroying the citadel and mass relays was one of the few things that the final ending got right. The relays are fundamentally a system of control made by the reapers that will stunt growth of all galactic civilization. Freedom from the reapers is impossible so long as the relays and citadel remain intact.

I tend to disagree there. Personally I came to see the Mass Relays as the remnants of Little Space Germany's Space Autobahn (IN SPACE!!!).
Without them there is no galaxy-wide travel. Interaction (and therefore exchange of knowledge) would be heavily reduced until the Council races could rebuilt that technology.

It would've been an "Up yours!" to the Reapers and Lil' Space Hitler if the galaxy flourishes using their Deathtrap of Doom, limited Collector's Edition(tm).

Unless the Mass Relays indoctrinate people too, there's no goddamn reason to blow them up. The Citadel should probably sealed off, though. I wouldn't surprised if it actually performs minor indoctrination to stop aliens from getting too curious about the keepers or learning about it's functions before the Reapers arrive.

Is there such a thing as minor Indoctrination? So far we were lead to believe that all indoctrinated people WILL end up as husks. Just that the more useful (or resilient) ones take longer to convert.
But an effect that creates a mindset of "This is a save place for our Government." isn't that far off.

As for the destroy ending... that supposedly wipes out all technology and the galaxy has been cultivated to develop technology in line with Reapers THUS taking out all synthetic life would logical eradicate every VI, ship and technological system. Now the galaxy has suffered the destruction of all FLT

Result:
Shepard just destroyed all FTL for everyone. stranded an armada, completely obliterated solar systems with a mass relay explosions and any Quarians / Geth are now dead as their suits, ships and technology fail.

And as far as I remember Lil' Space Hitler told Shepard the Destroy option would destroy all synthetic life, not all technology.
And who told us that?
Is the source really that reliable?
Could the source have lied?
Again, this comes back to the shit ending Bioware has given us. We don't even really know what the consequences of our choice was.

Earth burns, burns some more or is a lifeless rock... no word about the fleet there, on Palaven, Thessia or any other places in the galaxy.
The Mass Relays go boom... (we only get to choose the color ) but we never learn about the impact this had on the galaxy.
Just some random generic octogenarian talking to a brat about what amounts to a religious figure and that most of the story was lost to time...
Then the kid asks for another story and the old dude agrees... "Just one more."

Hell, I would have taken a text message over that as long as I learn about the consequences.

[DarkArk]

Totally! What an opressive piece of technology!

Technology that you can neither control nor replicate. Technology that also herds you into specific corridors of space, doesn't allow you to move outside of it, but is so easy to use that no one will really try and come up with another way to travel. It's so easy that it makes societies form along paths that the reapers desire, that's the whole damn point of the first conversation with Sovereign back in ME1. To be free from that influence yes the relays have to be destroyed.

Without them there is no galaxy-wide travel.

Then they will have to make their own. That's what I like about the Geth so much, they get it, and try and choose their own path.

Congratulations. Shepard just managed to surpass the Reapers in villiany in the space of 5 miniutes worth of an ending.

It does however end the genocidal cycle that has been going on for millions of years. Also, the death caused by the destruction of the mass relays being destroyed is inferred, and the animation at the end looks nothing like what happened in Arrival.

[PeZook]

Technology that you can neither control nor replicate. Technology that also herds you into specific corridors of space, doesn't allow you to move outside of it, but is so easy to use that no one will really try and come up with another way to travel. It's so easy that it makes societies form along paths that the reapers desire, that's the whole damn point of the first conversation with Sovereign back in ME1. To be free from that influence yes the relays have to be destroyed.

Again: they provide easy and cheap interstellar travel. OH MY GOD this is horrible and opressive and thus must be wiped out because it will somehow mean nobody is FREE! (FREEDOM FUCK YEAH!)

Perhaps we should take apart roman-era aqueducts and roads? They squeezed our civilization into a specific technological corridor! They are easy to use that nobody will invent any alternative!

You know what is ACTUALLY preventing galactic civilizations from developing? A race of genocidal, sentient superdreadnaughts that destroys them every 50 thousand years. Without them, the Protheans would've built their own mass relay network just fine.

[DarkArk]

Again: they provide easy and cheap interstellar travel. OH MY GOD this is horrible and opressive and thus must be wiped out because it will somehow mean nobody is FREE! (FREEDOM FUCK YEAH!)

Cut it with the strawman. The fact that the relays are efficient means nothing, because they are a crucial element of the reapers trap. It makes sense that when you're destroying the reapers you also destroy the things that made them as successful as they were.

Though hell for all we know the Catalyst was just being a douche.

A race of genocidal, sentient superdreadnaughts that destroys them every 50 thousand years.

The Reapers have always been successful in large part because they can expect what technology their opponents are going to have, because everyone develops mass effect tech. If the relays weren't there, it is likely that a civilization would develop technology that would put the Reapers at a severe disadvantage. The relays prevent that, precisely because they are so efficient and easy to use.

[bilateralrope]

Technology that you can neither control nor replicate.

Yet. The Protheans managed to replicate it. So what stops someone else from cracking it if the Reapers aren't around to wipe them out ?

Technology that also herds you into specific corridors of space, doesn't allow you to move outside of it, but is so easy to use that no one will really try and come up with another way to travel. It's so easy that it makes societies form along paths that the reapers desire, that's the whole damn point of the first conversation with Sovereign back in ME1. To be free from that influence yes the relays have to be destroyed.

For it to guarantee that civilizations develop on the lines the Reapers want, they need to be near any planet where a civilization might develop. Which means that any areas that aren't near relays probably aren't worth visiting.

Besides, once the space around the relays is developed people will move outwards.

The Reapers have always been successful in large part because they can expect what technology their opponents are going to have, because everyone develops mass effect tech. If the relays weren't there, it is likely that a civilization would develop technology that would put the Reapers at a severe disadvantage. The relays prevent that, precisely because they are so efficient and easy to use.

If the Reapers are destroyed, or otherwise rendered unable to perform their cleansing, why does it matter if civilizations are strong enough to threaten them or not ?

If the Reapers are still able to perform their cleansing, what stops them rebuilding the relays ?

[tezunegari]

The Reapers have always been successful in large part because they can expect what technology their opponents are going to have, because everyone develops mass effect tech. If the relays weren't there, it is likely that a civilization would develop technology that would put the Reapers at a severe disadvantage. The relays prevent that, precisely because they are so efficient and easy to use.

Not quite. The Reapers were always successful because they controlled the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

When a Cycle ended they always began at the Citadel wiping out the government. They either deactivated the Relays or set them to an Omega-Relay configuration, so that only ships with a Reaper IFF could use them successfully.
That gave them the ultimate advantage and made them truelly unstoppable.
Why?
No reinforcements. No transfer of resources to current Project Crucible. No way of getting the Crucible to the Citadel.
The only reason the current cycle even had a fleeting chance at survival was that one act of the Ilos-Protheans.

Without the Blockade of the Mass Relays and access to all military secrets of the current cycle the Reapers were forced into classic warfare instead of leisurely concentrating their forces to harvesting one system after another.

But to make it clear, I do not think the destruction of the Mass Relays makes the ending bad. I think that not showing us the consequences of that destruction makes the ending so bad.

Back in KotOR 1 there were three endings. One Jedi (the good Guys posing for a family foto), one Sith (a Sith, a throne and the Republic crushed at his/her feet) and a perfect Jedi (good guys and Bastila + family foto) ending, each showing us what happened after the McGuffin was destroyed. Mass Effect 3 only shows us how the McGuffin gets flatlined.

[Darth Hoth]

Right, finished the game this night. Not having read major spoilers beforehand.

Also played through the first two games a couple of times each. (Though I refused to pay for bloodsucking DLC.)

Major initial reactions to the story, obviously including spoilers:


*The Reapers, after much huffing and puffing in earlier instalments, appeared distinctly underwhelming when they began showing up in numbers. Unlike Sovereign when first introduced, they never felt even vaguely threatening.

*The "Geth are really good!" subplot struck me as an adaptation of an unfilmed Captain Planet script. So, OK, they wanted to be original/PC/whatever and have the Geth not being a stereotypical Skynet. I can buy that. Only instead they made them squeaky clean noble savages, and the Quarians so retardedly stupid and evil they deserve a Polluting Power Ring. And lo, any kind of moral ambiguity or verisimilitude went straight out the window. The only way I could react to that BS was to instantly dismiss the whole cyber-memories scene as poorly written propaganda from Geth VI to cover up the Evil Genocidal Robots.

*The Illusive Man got a really bad last showing. Not only did he (somewhat predictably) turn out to be Saren Mk II, his ending speech was also an atrociously directed rambling mess.

*The game ending: What the flying Hell?? In other words, my reaction was more or less what appears to be the typical one.


So overall, yes; in terms of plot, this is easily the worst in the series. Then again, I more or less expected a retarded resolution after the big reveal about the Reapers in ME2. Still, Little Hitler (I love that nickname!) did surprise me.

[DarkArk]

The Reapers were always successful because they controlled the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

Thanks for proving my point in the first sentence. A civilization not dependent on the relays would not have been sabotaged in the same way.

Though I had another thought on the matter, which is that it was probably necessary to use up the energy in the relays to propagate the signal to destroy/control/morph the reapers. Hence their necessary destruction.

[Vendetta]

Cut it with the strawman. The fact that the relays are efficient means nothing, because they are a crucial element of the reapers trap. It makes sense that when you're destroying the reapers you also destroy the things that made them as successful as they were.

Why?

What makes sense when you're destroying the reapers is, you know, destroying the actual reapers.

[tezunegari]

The Reapers were always successful because they controlled the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

Thanks for proving my point in the first sentence. A civilization not dependent on the relays would not have been sabotaged in the same way.

Is dependancy on the Mass Relays dangerous. Yes, I never claimed the opposite.

For all we know the Mass Relays might have been built by the creators of Lil' Space Hitler and the little bastard corrupted something innocent to suit his needs... (Husks, Marauders, Harvesters, Banshees ringing a bell?)

The whole IFF to lock Mass Relays might have been a security measure from the time they were built.
A way to control who travels your roads.
Or just to collect tolls... who knows.

• If ME3 is finished with a victory the Reapers are gone. And with that the only enemy to use that tactic.
  (it also appears as if the tactic isn't possible anymore to begin with... the Reapers did seize the Citadel after all)
• If you loose... either the next cycle can use the Mass Relay just like you without fearing the lockdown
  because that modus was removed by the Ilos-Prothean. Or the cycle will continue until someone finds
  the "Holy book of T'Soni" telling stories about "the Shepard".

And it could be that the Mass Relay network is the only workable solution to galactic travel to begin with and the galaxy is now devided until someone reinvents them.

As it is, the Mass Effect franchise is pretty much dead unless the Bioware writers come up with a new way to travel the galaxy.

Now if the Mass Relays were still intact you could write yourself silly with possible situations.

• The Citadel Council goes batshit insane an tries to rule like the Protheans did. They lock the Mass Relays like the Reapers did to gain control over territory.
• A new threat emerges from beyond one of the dormant Mass Relays.
  Either an old empire that successfully hid from the Reapers and tries to reclaim their throne.
  Or something that validates Lil' Space Hitlers position on the neccessity of his little genocides