Mass Effect 3 (Spoilers)

[Galvatron]

The whole time Harbinger was telling us in ME2 that the reapers are our salvation, I figured it would turn out to be true. I actually hoped it would.

[Havok]

My guess is dumb? Not knowing that the Reapers can shut down the relays to everyone but themselves is pretty dumb.

Hey dimwit what about you fucking play the game and understand what the fuck is going on, Reapers can not shut down any relay without the fucking citadel otherwise don't you think they would have shut down the Charon relay when they came for Earth.. Jesus Havok i know this is a site meant to make "mockery of stupid people" but do you have to jump to the front of the line on every possible opportunity?

Uh oh. Someone didn't pay attention to a MAJOR PLOT POINT and a few kinda important missions in Mass Effect 2. Oh man.

Does someone else want to field this? I'm getting tired from hitting all these softballs.

The Reapers didn't take the Citadel because the Council got control of it as others have already stated.

The council got control of opening and closing the ward arms and that's all, And you're entire argument is refuted by the fact that the reapers swoop in and take the citadel later in no time.[/quote] Yeah, there was no fleet there to protect the Citadel for one, and two the Citadel was almost taken by a lone Reaper, Sovereign, (with a little Geth help) if it hadn't been for Act of Sheppard.
And how would the Reapers do anything with the Citadel if it closed and they no longer had remote access to it? Especially considering the AAI has shown no propensity to help the Reapers.

Fucking christ. Do you guys actually PAY ATTENTION to the games or do you just play through as fast as you can so you can log in and NERDRAGE?

Which brings up a point FOR the Reapers knowing about the AAI and not wanting to endanger it as to why they left the Citadel alone and only made a move on it when the AAI was in direct danger from the Crucible plan.

This is utterly bullshit - you have no way of guessing the reapers motives to not taking the citadel, Hell you don't even know what is the exact nature of the crucible-catalyst-reaper relationship.

All you and anybody else can judge is what actually happens in the game - Fuck you don't even know if the reapers are aware of the catalysts existence, But keep making shit up it's pretty fun to read.

Holy fucking shit... you don't pay attention to the game OR what people post.

"Fuck you don't even know if the reapers are aware of the catalysts existence" I mean REALLY? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Havok]

The whole time Harbinger was telling us in ME2 that the reapers are our salvation, I figured it would turn out to be true. I actually hoped it would.

It would have been an actual complicated moral dilemma to put Sheppard in instead of the basic one they ended up doing. I am assuming you are referring to the dark energy plot that was completely dropped.

It makes the choice an actual hard one as well... kill the Reapers and save the current civilizations, but ultimately risk the entire galaxy and all the life in it forever.

Of course the people in this thread would rage and call Sheppard New Hitler and claim the Reapers are lying even though the intent of the writers and game is to convey the information as fact.

[Havok]

I don't know if this has been addressed yet (or even if the following is true), but I just read that the reapers were originally intended to be explained as having been created to serve as a defense against extragalactic dark energy causing all the stars in our galaxy to die prematurely (e.g. Haestrom's star). That's why we had so many references to dark energy in ME2.

Apparently, the reapers acted as giant energy sinks which is why they loiter outside the galaxy for 50,000 years: to act as a giant shield. However, as the centuries pass, the amount of dark energy increases so they need to harvest more species to create more reapers, hence the vicious cycle.

The end of the game would have given Shepard the choice of either destroying the reapers and hoping that the advanced races of the galaxy can eventually come up with a new way to stop dark energy OR bargaining the reapers down to just harvesting humans to make a new reaper, thus sparing everyone else.

Yep, what you were talking about.
Like I said, a true and complex moral dilemma.

It's not hard to make any of the choices at the end of ME3 as it stands because they all kill the evil Reapers that only want to take away the freedom of choice. They all have basically the same repercussions.

However given the choices of:
Destroy the Reapers and save the current civilizations, but doom future civilizations and the galaxy itself. Keeping in mind the Reapers, after countless cycles of searching, haven't come up with another solution.

Allow the Reapers to perform their function and doom the current civilizations, yet save the galaxy and future civilizations.

Make a deal to save humanity and say, one other race, and your team, but still allow the Reapers to harvest the rest to save the galaxy.

Now THAT is a complicated moral dilemma.

[Vendetta]

What's interesting to me is how the gaming press is pretty much all rallying around to support Bioware, and trying to put down the complaints by claiming that gamers are 'entitled' (a codeword for "spoiled crybabies")

Turns out more mainstream press isn't quite on board with that. But then I guess Forbes doesn't rely on EA's marketing dollar quite so much...

[Galvatron]

I fucking love the game despite the ending (and the face import bug), but I wish the "spoiled crybabies" the best of luck in their endeavors.

[Havok]

What's interesting to me is how the gaming press is pretty much all rallying around to support Bioware, and trying to put down the complaints by claiming that gamers are 'entitled' (a codeword for "spoiled crybabies")

Turns out more mainstream press isn't quite on board with that. But then I guess Forbes doesn't rely on EA's marketing dollar quite so much...

I dunno... people that pay for movies or book that they end up not liking don't get to get an ending change. This site would be a whole lot rosier if they did.

The thing is, digital media is a different animal and endings can be changed. Did they really change the ending of Fallout?

[Aaron MkII]

Well if you invest in a three game series, I think yoir owed an ending that isn't a literal deus ex.

But I'd like to hear more of this dark energy idea, with luck they'll go with for the next game.

Yeah Hav, so it could segway into the dlc.

[Galvatron]

I thought this was a good summation of the problem with the ending (posted on the Bioware forums)...

What is wrong with the ending to ME3

[Vendetta]

I dunno... people that pay for movies or book that they end up not liking don't get to get an ending change. This site would be a whole lot rosier if they did.

The thing is, digital media is a different animal and endings can be changed. Did they really change the ending of Fallout?

Except when they do....


And yeah, they changed the ending of Fallout 3 if you have Broken Steel installed so that Fawkes could start the purifier (previously he would just refuse for no adequate reason so that you had to be Post Apocalyptic Jesus and die for everyone's sins.)

Also, in most movies you don't have producers outright lying about what the endings will entail before release. (Casey Hudson actually said in interviews that ME3's ending wouldn't just be a standard videogame ending where you pick from a couple of things and would reflect the majority of your choices up to that point, oops, it actually is and almost nothing you do in the game is reflected in it or the scenes leading up to it)

[PeZook]

Aren't the choices you are given determined by the number of ships that you bring to the battle, too?

How the hell does this follow? If you have 2 dreadnaughts in orbit the Reapers exploderize and burn Earth to a cinder, but if you have 40 they just fall over?

"Oh yeah Shepard I wasn't going to let you merge organics and machines, but I like the amount of Marines that you brought to Earth. Marines! So manly..."

[OmegaChief]

I thought this was a good summation of the problem with the ending (posted on the Bioware forums)...

What is wrong with the ending to ME3

I think this isolates the major problem I have with the ending, I don't mind if Shep sacrifices himself to make the reapers go away (Though I like teh proposed idea of it being a giant off switch for thier shields) it's jsut we don't get closure, ME 1 and ME 2 had closure, after teh big choice we got to see what happened immedetly afterwards, talk with the Council/Anderson and Udina/TIM and whatever.

You could even have worked a boss battle in there, heck the Rannoch stuff foreshadows that you can walk around in cyberspace or whatever, maybe with Sheps body dying, uploads into the crucible and then goes on to fight, I don't know Harbinger inside his own head (Or have convos or whatever because talking to Reapers was always neat) and all teh while you can cut back to the battle to show how things are going, with teh Reapers starting to shut down or loose shields/weapons ebcome uncordinated, which is where the War assets become important! Because if you don't have enough, Shep can't shut the Reapers down in time to save teh galaxy, and so has to settle for saving everyone who comes along after. Works better for me anyway >.>

[Vendetta]

Aren't the choices you are given determined by the number of ships that you bring to the battle, too?

Your EMS score modifies the colours of space magic you can choose from and how blowed up the earth is. Also, if you have very high EMS score and choose the red space magic (and only the red space magic) Anderson and potentially Shepard will survive.

There will still be no closure for any of the other things you have just spent 35-40 hours busting your ass off to achieve, and your party will still be randomly teleported to a place suspiciously resembling Sur'Kesh (Even if they were dead next to you when Harbinger showed up and trollfaced you on the way to the Conduit Mk. II).

[Havok]

I dunno... people that pay for movies or book that they end up not liking don't get to get an ending change. This site would be a whole lot rosier if they did.

The thing is, digital media is a different animal and endings can be changed. Did they really change the ending of Fallout?

Except when they do....

How many of those are after the fact and changed because of fan say so and not because of the creators already having them in place someway?

And yeah, they changed the ending of Fallout 3 if you have Broken Steel installed so that Fawkes could start the purifier (previously he would just refuse for no adequate reason so that you had to be Post Apocalyptic Jesus and die for everyone's sins.)

I don't know what any of that means. I'll take your word for it.

Also, in most movies you don't have producers outright lying about what the endings will entail before release. (Casey Hudson actually said in interviews that ME3's ending wouldn't just be a standard videogame ending where you pick from a couple of things and would reflect the majority of your choices up to that point, oops, it actually is and almost nothing you do in the game is reflected in it or the scenes leading up to it)

Is it lying or just having poor writing and having no idea what good writing is? Like I said earlier, I'm starting to get that Bioware's stable of writers is pretty fucking weak. They may honestly think that the ending isn't standard fare.

[CaptHawkeye]

Allow the Reapers to perform their function and doom the current civilizations, yet save the galaxy and future civilizations.

Now THAT is a complicated moral dilemma.

This choice would seem initially hard to justify, but you could push this as the Illusive Man's POV by allowing the Reapers to reveal the Protheans aren't dead. By being "harvested" their collective consciousness has been preserved. Not only are they alive, but they all have eternal life. Thus making this option even more attractive by throwing in an immortality for all angle.

[Zinegata]

Yeah well it took the reapers very short time to defeat the citadel fleet, Capture the citadel and transport it to Earth in ME 3 - in fact it was done of screen while Shep were clearing out a Cerberus base, So i don't really think the reapers had any fear of the citadel fleet, Especially if they showed up in full force.

Yes, but this is already after they also started attacking the homeworlds of the other Citadel races, so the ships originally guarding the Citadel would have been pulled off guard duty

Note that the Destiny Ascension (Citadel fleet flagship) ends up with the combined fleet to retake Earth, instead of being destroyed in the Citadel attack.

[Veramocor]

We at least know from the full military strength ending and choosing to destroy the reapers that the A.I. is a liar. The A.I. states that if you choose to destroy the reapers all inorganic life will die including Shepard who is part synthetic. Well Shepard does live in that 'best' ending.

The best theory is that the whole seqeunce is a dream sequece and/or Shepard is partially indoctrinated after the laser blast. Only choosing to destroy the Reapers wakes you up. Dream sequence theory

some of the best evidence:

1. your gun has unlimited ammo which is indictive of a dream. The alternate in world explantion is that the gun is an old ME1 style gun. Alternate Out of world: devs are lazy.
2. your squad mates survive the laser blast uninjured and are back on the Normandy. Again you dreaming about something good happening. The alternate in world explanation is horrible because if they weren't injured they would have made it to the Conduit before/with you. It's also bad explantion because somehow they would have had to get off the planet and on to the Normandy. And then the Normandy abandons the battle line?
3. waking up in the 'best' ending. The Citadel is shown imploding at the end of the destroy the reapers choice and yet you somehow survive. The rubble around you appears to be concrete and cement not steel structures you'd find on the Citadel. Therefore Shepard is still on after buried in rubble in London.

[Zinegata]

This choice would seem initially hard to justify, but you could push this as the Illusive Man's POV by allowing the Reapers to reveal the Protheans aren't dead. By being "harvested" their collective consciousness has been preserved. Not only are they alive, but they all have eternal life. Thus making this option even more attractive by throwing in an immortality for all angle.

Except that's not true. In the case of the Protheans it was explictly stated back in ME2 that their DNA was too complex to Reaperize. That's why they created the Collectors instead - which are essentially Protheans who were indocrtinated into pure slavery.

And do remember that the Reapers essentially just abandoned them after "failing".

So there is really very little to justify the idea that the Reapers are saving anyone because that's their goal. They're genocidal monsters, plain and simple.

[Zinegata]

NOTE THE ORDER OF EVENTS and what he says. "Very early WE" THEN "Rebeled against US", THEN "unite all organic life within OUR empire".

No, you fucking moron. You're again lying because again, the EXACT dialogue I linked says it straight out: The machines were not created by the Protheans. They were created by another race called the Zha.

Moreover, this one's exceedingly easy to explain. Once an organic race has been incorporated into the Prothean empire, they are considered to be Protheans rather than their original race.

So if one video says it was the "Zha" who created the machines, and another says "they rebellef against us", all it actually means is that the Zha were in fact part of the Prothean alliance/empire. But the Prothean race itself - the one Javik belonged to - did not create them unless you can prove that the Zha are in fact the original Prothean (which is again unlikely - why would Javik say the "Zha" created the machines when he could simply had said "We")

In short, again, all of your accusations about other people not listening? Untrue, because you are a fucking moron and a Nazi-lover.

You are simply again employing deliberate wall of ignorance, such as in this case...

Really... so not every example of synthetics/AI in ME hasn't involved either them trying to destroy their creators or their creators trying to destroy them? Is that your contention? REALLY? I mean, go ahead and say that...

I do not have to prove that "Organics and synthetics can ALWAYS live together in harmony".

I am disproving Little Hitler's notion that Organics and Synthetics are ALWAYS destined to kill each other.

Therefore, your attempt to dismiss the Quarian-Geth example, and the fact that the Protheans didn't create the synthetics that rebelled only goes to show how much Wall of Ignorance you are employing. The Catalyst was simply factually wrong. Organics and Synthetics are NOT destined to kill each other. The premise of his entire process is a lie.

That you insist we prove that "All organics and synthetics will always live in harmony!" only goes to show how completely dishonest your debating tactics are. We are not the ones making the assertion that you should genocide most organic life to "save" it because it is doomed to go to war with Synthetics. The Catalyst is the one who made that argument, which you are hailing as absolute truth. So your premise is already shitty even before we go to the fact that nothing justifies genocide, and all you're doing is to support creating a desert and call it peace.

So really, stop trolling because you're a Nazi lover who supports genocide. There is a reason why you're in the 2% of the population of the ending. You're a fucking psycopath just like Little Hitler. And that's why everyone else would prefer the "Fuck Little Hitler" DLC.

[Zinegata]

I don't know if this has been addressed yet (or even if the following is true), but I just read that the reapers were originally intended to be explained as having been created to serve as a defense against extragalactic dark energy causing all the stars in our galaxy to die prematurely (e.g. Haestrom's star). That's why we had so many references to dark energy in ME2.

Apparently, the reapers acted as giant energy sinks which is why they loiter outside the galaxy for 50,000 years: to act as a giant shield. However, as the centuries pass, the amount of dark energy increases so they need to harvest more species to create more reapers, hence the vicious cycle.

The end of the game would have given Shepard the choice of either destroying the reapers and hoping that the advanced races of the galaxy can eventually come up with a new way to stop dark energy OR bargaining the reapers down to just harvesting humans to make a new reaper, thus sparing everyone else.

And then they replaced Drew Karpyshyn with Mac Walter, who gave us ME3.

Take it FWIW.

Yeah, I mentioned this earlier. It's a more logical ending, but I still think it's a bit ham-fisted as they're trying to make us sympathize with a bunch of genocidal machines.

Also, do note that Drew Karpyshyn wasn't really actively involved in ME2 very much. From what I heard he was only really able to give the general outline and some story notes.

I'm more inclined to believe that Drew's vision of the Reapers is of an evil, genocidal race actively eating people to simply reproduce. They don't OMNOM the less advanced civs simply to have some food for the next cycle.

Then Mac Walters came along in ME2 and tried to add this Dark Matter thing to give the Reapers a reason for existing outside of simply OMNOMing the organics. Then the ME3 script got leaked, people reacted poorly to it (because everything up to ME2 leads us to believe that the Reapers are ireedeemable evil genocidal bastards.) and Bioware panicked and cut all the Dark Matter portions but STILL tried to make us work with the Reapers... only they didn't HAVE a good reason to OMNOM the peoples of the galaxy anymore.

Regardless, somebody needs to meet the Commissar for this fuckup.

[dragon]

over all greatg game though ending kind of lame as well as what happens to Miranda. What really pissed me off was the scripted fight with the assassin in the temple. I hated scripted fights that you have no chance of winning.

What happened to Miranda? She survived in mine as far as I know.

Must have done something wrong somewhere as she got killed in the facility run by her father

edit I chose synthesis merging organics and inorganics into one was kind of interesting to see Joker with circuitry all over.

[Zinegata]

Must have done something wrong somewhere as she got killed in the facility run by her father

edit I chose synthesis merging organics and inorganics into one was kind of interesting to see Joker with circuitry all over.

You need to warn her about Kai Leng and complete her loyalty quest in ME2 for her to survive. And I think you need to take the Paragon/Renegade interrupt on the dad.

[Galvatron]

Just saw this posted on the Bioware forums and thought it was spot on.

[Zinegata]

MAJOR PLOT POINT and a few kinda important missions in Mass Effect 2. Oh man.

Does someone else want to field this? I'm getting tired from hitting all these softballs.

Uh, what the hell are you lying about now? It was established way back in ME1 that the Citadel did enable to shutdown of all relays. The only other way to mess up the relays is to either make a special relay (i.e. Omega) which also has suicidal defenses right past it, or to blow it up (which Shep did) - but the Reapers don't necessarily want the latter since they apparently use the relays too.

Havok tries to be smug and all, but all he's doing is trolling because he's a goddamn fucking Little-Hitler loving moron.

And how would the Reapers do anything with the Citadel if it closed and they no longer had remote access to it? Especially considering the AAI has shown no propensity to help the Reapers.

Uh, right. This is literally the fourth time you ignore the fact that he said he created the Reapers as the solution to the problem, and that he frowns upon destroying them because it claims that it will cause the cycle to continue. That's not "no propensity to help the Reapers" when the ONLY solution that he has qualms about is the one that results in their destruction.

Wall of Ignorance Mk IV.

This is utterly bullshit - you have no way of guessing the reapers motives to not taking the citadel, Hell you don't even know what is the exact nature of the crucible-catalyst-reaper relationship.

And yet you keep foisting this bullshit notion that "The Catalyst can't control the Reapers!" on us. There is actually nothing to support your notion that the Catalyst has no control over the Reapers either. In fact, the implications that it was able to make a control mechanism for Shepard means that it does know how to control the Reapers - otherwise no "Control" scenario would be possible.

So really, stop being such a troll because you're a psycopath who threatens other forum-goers with physical harm due to your retardedness.

[Thanas]

Well done.