World of Warcraft: Shattering

[Molyneux]

You know Kujas comments are very similar to what zero punctuation expressed in their review (namely that blood elves have taken away the "hottest female" excuse, while giving the worgen a less cool backstory then the goblins)

Really? I've enjoyed the worgen backstory more, myself.

[Civil War Man]

You know Kujas comments are very similar to what zero punctuation expressed in their review (namely that blood elves have taken away the "hottest female" excuse, while giving the worgen a less cool backstory then the goblins)

I personally prefer the Worgen backstory. The problem is that the Worgen side is less polished due to having so many unique aspects that the other races didn't have. Running Wild, while the best thematic choice for the Worgen "mount", was very last-minute in its implementation. Being able to customize both human and Worgen forms took a long time to finish. You couldn't even make a female Worgen on the beta until a couple months before release. The result of this, at least from my experience, is that a lot more bugs in the Worgen starting zone made it to release than in other areas of the game.

The most valid complaint I've heard about the Worgen story is that, like the Draenei in BC, it just ends. If it weren't for other player characters and the occasional NPC found scattered throughout the world, it'd be hard to tell that the Worgen race even exists. In fact, the only way to continue the Worgen story and see the aftermath of the starting area is to immediately roll a Horde character once you've finished with the Gilneas quests and level through Silverpine Forest.

Also, Blood Elves only have the "hottest females" if you find malnourishment sexy.

[Highlord Laan]

There's also the problem that in order to actually see the end of the Worgen sotryline in Gilneas, you have to roll horde and play the Forsaken quests in Silverpine.

Actually playing Worgen, the player never sees what happens to Godfrey, never learns about Crowley's resistance and how it ends, and never learns the fate of their own nation or it's population 9ie: the Scythe of Elune is used to turn every human in Gilenas into a Worgen, and the Forsaken are thrown back.)

Bringing that up on the WoW forums gets one banned.

[Terralthra]

Shamans really are the kings of Heroics right now. Banish Elementals, Hex Humaniods, 5 second CD interrupts.

Just as a nitpick, Shamans have bind elemental, not banish. Banish is the Warlock CC for Demons/Elementals, along with Fear for humanoids (finally made unshitty by the glyph). Shamans definitely have us beat on interrupt timers, though. Our interrupt requires using the pet that they took away the talents for and it's still a 24-second CD.

[Broomstick]

I'm another one who like the Worgen story better than the Goblin, even if it does end abruptly. Does every story have to run endlessly? Be taken up immediately? There are a lot of stories in WoW at this point, and unless you play both Horde and Alliance you don't see the whole story (and not even then sometimes)

[Minischoles]

I'm another one who like the Worgen story better than the Goblin, even if it does end abruptly. Does every story have to run endlessly? Be taken up immediately? There are a lot of stories in WoW at this point, and unless you play both Horde and Alliance you don't see the whole story (and not even then sometimes)

The problem I have with the story is what Highlord Laan said - you get this really great starting set of quests, but it just ends very abruptly, dumping you in Darnassus. So you never really get any conclusion to the story, unless you also roll a horde character as well. Contrast this to the goblin experience, where you get into one of the best starting leveling zones included in Cata.

[Kuja]

The goblin transition into the world at large is infinitely smoother and more polished than the worgens'. Azshara from top to bottom is a distinctly goblin zone with some Horde elements, while Ashenvale and Stonetalon (the most logical leveling path afterwards) are Horce-centric with goblin spicing, making a goblin player feel at home.

Worgen, on the other hand, go into Darkshore, which is all nelf all the time. They won't even see a worgen questgiver until the very end of Stonetalon, or, if you hop continents, you see a couple in Duskwood.

The real kicker, however, is that the goblins play an important role in the new Cataclysm zones - Twilight Highlands, to be specific. Without the Bilgewaters, the Horde wouldn't have been able to mount its offensive there and would have lost a quest hub (Krazzworks) and the force that breaks open Grim Batol (Gob Squad).

To my knowledge, however, the extent of the worgen appearance at the new zones amounts to a few killable npc's at the Shrine of Goldrinn, after which the area is staffed with humans, nelves, and an orc - the freaking worgen don't even get to show up for their own demigod.

[Civil War Man]

Actually, at the very least the leader of the Guardians at the Shrine of Goldrinn is a Worgen. He's just always in his human form. Pretty much every human you see in that area is probably the same way.

Which is really weird. There are a fair number of Gilnean NPCs scattered across the world, but for all the work Blizzard put into the Worgen models, they seem almost hell-bent on not using it for NPCs and instead have uninfected Gilneans and/or Worgen spending all their time in human form.

As for other NPCs, there's also a female Worgen in Vashj'ir who speaks entirely in something resembling Cockney rhyming slang.

[Serafina]

Heck, they actually introduced a lot of goblins in alliance-leveling zones. And what did they do to counter that? Put GNOMES there. Yes, it makes sense to counter technology with technology and all that - but they could have really sprinkled some worgen in there, too. Have them being stealthy melee heavy-hitters or something like that - i actually got to see that once in Felwood, and it worked well.

I guess parts of the problem are
-Worgen don't offer anything special that the Alliance and the Night Elves in particular don't already have. Goblins are technological and good at a specific part of scheming - no other Horde race has that. Worgen are good skirmishers - the Night Elves are good at that, too. They are better at melee, but that's about it. Still something you can write stories about, but it doesn't have as much impact as goblins do.
-The cool part about the worgen is not that easy to weave into a plot as the cool part about the goblins. The goblins technology can be employed almost anywhere, as can their greedy shadiness. The Worgen transformation offers almost nothing for a greater plot that doesn't just focuss on one person.
-Warfare in Warcarft in general is either a lot about technology or a lot about magic. Worgen are not particulary apt at either, they are a more mundane race as far as fighting goes (read_ hit things with sharp claws). Their PC-classes include magic characters, but their NPCs are largely non-magic foot soldiers and skirmishers.
-Goblins were around before and have much more background than Worgen.
-Blizzard doesn't care that much about the Alliance.

For these and possibly other reasons, the Worgen get little to no impact on the actual story - i could take my whole Kalimdor-centric levelling experience as an alliance-character, and i would not change that story in any notable way when i would remove the Worgen from it, except for losing a few insignificant sidequests. If i would remove the Goblins however, whole areas i quested in would have been changed.

[Molyneux]

Heck, they actually introduced a lot of goblins in alliance-leveling zones. And what did they do to counter that? Put GNOMES there. Yes, it makes sense to counter technology with technology and all that - but they could have really sprinkled some worgen in there, too. Have them being stealthy melee heavy-hitters or something like that - i actually got to see that once in Felwood, and it worked well.

I guess parts of the problem are
-Worgen don't offer anything special that the Alliance and the Night Elves in particular don't already have. Goblins are technological and good at a specific part of scheming - no other Horde race has that. Worgen are good skirmishers - the Night Elves are good at that, too. They are better at melee, but that's about it. Still something you can write stories about, but it doesn't have as much impact as goblins do.
-The cool part about the worgen is not that easy to weave into a plot as the cool part about the goblins. The goblins technology can be employed almost anywhere, as can their greedy shadiness. The Worgen transformation offers almost nothing for a greater plot that doesn't just focuss on one person.
-Warfare in Warcarft in general is either a lot about technology or a lot about magic. Worgen are not particulary apt at either, they are a more mundane race as far as fighting goes (read_ hit things with sharp claws). Their PC-classes include magic characters, but their NPCs are largely non-magic foot soldiers and skirmishers.
-Goblins were around before and have much more background than Worgen.
-Blizzard doesn't care that much about the Alliance.

For these and possibly other reasons, the Worgen get little to no impact on the actual story - i could take my whole Kalimdor-centric levelling experience as an alliance-character, and i would not change that story in any notable way when i would remove the Worgen from it, except for losing a few insignificant sidequests. If i would remove the Goblins however, whole areas i quested in would have been changed.

Funny, I keep hearing people say that Blizzard hates both sides...I'm not sure how much of that is individual bias (Horde players seem to think Blizzard hates them, and Ally players feel left out themselves.)

I do like that they've introduced a good few worgen NPCs in Stormwind, at least; King Greymane is in the throne room, and both of the druid trainers I've found in SW are Worgen. The one on the docks seems to spend most of his time in shifted form, but the woman northeast of the city, by the pumpkin farm, is more often human than not, and only changes occasionally.

I'm fairly sure that she's the same Druid trainer from the tutorial, as well, which I thought was a good move on Blizzard's part. I'm hoping I'll run into the alchemist from the intro, as well.

[Civil War Man]

She probably is. As far as I've been able to tell, the trainers and major NPCs that followed the player through the starting zone are in the main world as well. Most are confined to the Howling Oak in Darnassus, but the alchemist that developed the drug that allowed Worgen to regain control of their minds is in Rut'theran Village.

[Molyneux]

She probably is. As far as I've been able to tell, the trainers and major NPCs that followed the player through the starting zone are in the main world as well. Most are confined to the Howling Oak in Darnassus, but the alchemist that developed the drug that allowed Worgen to regain control of their minds is in Rut'theran Village.

Really? Damn, I'll have to swing by there.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Also, in the blasted lands there's a village of Gilnean refugees and a number of their ships wrecked along the coast.

[Molyneux]

Also, in the blasted lands there's a village of Gilnean refugees and a number of their ships wrecked along the coast.

That's true, and I've done some quest lines there - but mostly, I just like seeing characters from the tutorial get a bit more face-time in the main game.

[TheFeniX]

The specific mention of 'PVP duration' in the patch notes for all the CC nerfs makes that quite clear, Fenix.

I try and keep on on general patch notes and my class specific ones. I rely on the rest of my team for their class specific abilities (like how our shaman informed me he lost his cleanse totem a while back). This was just a couple of mages bitching in guild chat about losing some utility in PvE. But it's good to know that isn't the case.

While I am personally specced into Endless Winter, it is very much an optional talent. It's invaluable when on interrupt duty, but Frost has very little leeway when it comes to allocating talent points, so putting points in Endless Winter means taking them out of talents like Improved Blood Tap or major quality-of-life buffs like On a Pale Horse.

The only time I've seen frost get very restrictive is if you're going dual wielding, as you're forced to put 6 talent point into abilties to make it viable. Meanwhile, two-handed weapons only requires 3 talent points and Might of the Frozen Wastes isn't all that great anyways (45% chance to generate more RP, whoop-di-fucking-do). But after the patch, speccing into it will give a 20% damage bonus as well, so it's even less incentive to dual wield.

I've found greater utitilty with unholy command for PvP and epidemic for PvE (keep the diseases rolling longer). Although adding festering strike into your rotation removes the need for that, but frost rotation is so fucked up as it is and people need to also focus on not standing in the fire now. God damn DKs love to stand in the fire.....

Anyway, defending Tol Barad is a joke. It seems alliance on our server is able to take it back early morning and hold it pretty much for the rest of the day. It's just a more violent version of ring around the rosy. Hilariously, they've already started with the "need 2 tanks for BH, pst ach" shit.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Thats the one thing I hate most is 'post achievement'.

[Highlord Laan]

Thats the one thing I hate most is 'post achievement'.

Thats where you post a random achievement and call the jackass a total moron.

[Melchior]

Thats the one thing I hate most is 'post achievement'.

Thats where you post a random achievement and call the jackass a total moron.

I don't understand the hostility, seems reasonable to me, there are plenty of terrible players around. I occasionally (very occasionally, I'm generally a pure raid-logger and clearly we don't do BH on real raid hours) get stuck with finding randoms for a BH run (we don't do true guild runs because it's a very small guild and ten men hardmodes, which we're starting progression on, require pretty strict class stacking and it would be suboptimal to just go in with multiple warlocks/priests/whatever) and I politely ask for it - something like "LF x and y for BH, whisper class, spec and achievement if you have it", then I look them up on armory and if on the whole it doesn't look too bad they get invited; doing BH isn't interesting at all and I don't see why one should make it worse by refusing to vet the candidates.

[Civil War Man]

The only time I've seen frost get very restrictive is if you're going dual wielding, as you're forced to put 6 talent point into abilties to make it viable. Meanwhile, two-handed weapons only requires 3 talent points and Might of the Frozen Wastes isn't all that great anyways (45% chance to generate more RP, whoop-di-fucking-do). But after the patch, speccing into it will give a 20% damage bonus as well, so it's even less incentive to dual wield.

They are actually both very restrictive. Here's how the specs go for PvE:

Tier 1:
For Dual Wield, 3/3 Nerves of Cold Steel, then either 2/2 Icy Reach or 2/3 Runic Power Mastery
For Two-handed weapons, 3/3 Runic Power mastery and 2/2 Icy Reach because Nerves of Cold Steel gives zero benefit for two-handed weapons
Dual-wield frost is required to spend points in Nerves of Cold Steel, Two-handed frost is required to not spend points in Nerves of Cold Steel. Both equally restricted in different ways.

As for the rest of the tree, everything below Tier 1 is almost identical for both specs, barring 3/3 Threat of Thassarian for dual-wield versus 3/3 Might of the Frozen Wastes for two-handed weapons. Both do 3/3 Annihilation with 2 discretionary points for tier 2. Both take Merciless Combat, Killing Machine, Rime, Pillar of Frost, Improved Icy Talons, Brittle Bones, Hungering Cold, Improved Frost Presence, Chill of the Grave, and Howling Blast.

[White Haven]

Link 'em the 'Ready for Raiding' achievement from HVC.

[TheFeniX]

As for the rest of the tree, everything below Tier 1 is almost identical for both specs, barring 3/3 Threat of Thassarian for dual-wield versus 3/3 Might of the Frozen Wastes for two-handed weapons. Both do 3/3 Annihilation with 2 discretionary points for tier 2. Both take Merciless Combat, Killing Machine, Rime, Pillar of Frost, Improved Icy Talons, Brittle Bones, Hungering Cold, Improved Frost Presence, Chill of the Grave, and Howling Blast.

Merciless combat and Rime are not required for PvE or PvP. If all you want is damage, that's fine. But talents like chillblains give you better utility. Unlike Killing Machine which, since your crit gets beaten to the ground at 85, is pretty much required.

I don't understand the hostility, seems reasonable to me,

Maybe because I don't respect DPS as much as they think I should. It's easy mode and they routinely fuck even that up. At the end of WotLK, I was around 5800. Some random wanted to run naxx, and demanded a gearscore of 5400+ (ha!). I was volunteered by a guildmate and upon entering the raid was told "You better have your shit together pally" which lead me to check this hunter's (go fucking figure) armory page, only to find a mish-mash of 213 and 251PVP gear. I told him to go fuck himself and left.

And that's my thing about baradin hold: it's a fucking gear-check (mostly on the DPS mind you) and idiot check fight. It's not 7/12 ICC. I got a whisper from some random guy while doing my dailies that was "You're geared, link ach and I'll get you in on BH." My reply was "go fuck yourself."

If you can't accept the fact that people are human and maybe other people who haven't done content should be given a shot, whatever. But don't expect anyone to respect you for it.

[Civil War Man]

Merciless combat and Rime are not required for PvE or PvP. If all you want is damage, that's fine. But talents like chillblains give you better utility. Unlike Killing Machine which, since your crit gets beaten to the ground at 85, is pretty much required.

I will agree that Chillbains is good utility for PvP in general, but it is very situational in PvE. It doesn't snare as much as Chains of Ice, but has a longer duration, which is largely moot since a vast majority of bosses and a significant number of non-trivial trash can't be snared. In PvE, it works best when in a fight involving groups of adds that can and should be snared, since you'd be able to apply it more efficiently than Chains of Ice on groups with a glyphed Howling Blast.

As for Merciless Combat and Rime not being required for PvE, that's just nonsensical. Merciless Combat is a massive boost to all of Frost's main attacks (ie Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Howling Blast) during a boss's execute phase. You'd be asking to get laughed out of a raid if you show up without it. Rime, meanwhile, is a free Howling Blast proc. Damage may not be everything, but if you need to spec into Chillbains, you should take the points out of a less critical talent like Chill of the Grave or one of the Blood/Unholy talents where you put the remainder after getting Howling Blast.

[TheFeniX]

As for Merciless Combat and Rime not being required for PvE, that's just nonsensical. Merciless Combat is a massive boost to all of Frost's main attacks (ie Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Howling Blast) during a boss's execute phase. You'd be asking to get laughed out of a raid if you show up without it.

I had to balance my build for PvP while still maintaining a consistent damage output. MC was the first to go because I don't raid with my DK, at least not seriously. Raiding is a whole different animal from heroics. Since cata, I've been considering just ditching my blood build completely and having two separate frost builds: PvP and PvE. But I've put it off as I can pull 8k in heroics, so most groups won't bitch, except one guy (pulling like 6k) who complained because I was in a crafted set of 339 PvP gear. At least the tank was cool and said "he can pull his weight, so STFU." But I really can't see me putting in the time on a second character to score 346 gear.

Rime, meanwhile, is a free Howling Blast proc. Damage may not be everything, but if you need to spec into Chillbains, you should take the points out of a less critical talent like Chill of the Grave or one of the Blood/Unholy talents where you put the remainder after getting Howling Blast.

Ditching Unholy command would be the first thing in PvE. But I've found epidemic, bladed armor, and butchery way to useful to sacrifice. I think we're just arguing different aspects. But I still contend that Frost isn't all that restrictive in it's ability to pull decent damage, provided you know your rotation. Now, during raiding: that attitude goes out the window.

[Melchior]

Maybe because I don't respect DPS as much as they think I should. It's easy mode and they routinely fuck even that up. At the end of WotLK, I was around 5800. Some random wanted to run naxx, and demanded a gearscore of 5400+ (ha!). I was volunteered by a guildmate and upon entering the raid was told "You better have your shit together pally" which lead me to check this hunter's (go fucking figure) armory page, only to find a mish-mash of 213 and 251PVP gear. I told him to go fuck himself and left.

You had gearscore installed and criticize me for checking people up in the armory?

If you can't accept the fact that people are human and maybe other people who haven't done content should be given a shot, whatever. But don't expect anyone to respect you for it.

If I have multiple people whispering me for spot, choosing the most qualified players seems the most correct thing to do. Having the achi is a guarantee of at least a modicum of skill (managing to not wipe a raid during a kill, so you know that he won't taunt the boss or something and will at worst die in the fire in a corner while being carried).
Being (hilariously) unreasonable about it would be asking for unrelated proofs of skill ("LFM Baradin Hold, link your Firefighter" and then checking the date), but even this would frankly make me smile, not rage and be rude to people (maybe because I don't feel insecure about my skills).

[Lord Revan]

well at least it's not yet gone to the "need ICC25 heroic gear for lvl 80 normals" what it was during the late Wrath (on my realm at least).