World of Warcraft: Legion

[Broomstick]

Just took my highest level rogue to the Broken Isles.

Plus: Bliz is now letting you skip the bit between Org and actually getting to Dalaran, which is just fine by me because it was getting tedious.

I am enjoying how each class has to go through a different thing to get its artifact weapon. It's making the start of the expansion very re-playable.

I wonder - does Papa Wolf Genn Greyman know his precious daughter Tess has fallen in with outlaws and assassins? Also, is Tess a Worgen as well or still Human? It's been so long since I played a Worgen I've forgotten some details.

[TheFeniX]

I'd rather deal with zero queue times and stupid DPS than an hour wait and risk a bad tank. A bad tank breaks the group more than anything. And DH tanks have way too much survivability without a healer to ignore. I've been tanking pugs since Dungeon Finder was added to the game. There's a lot of bad DPS out there, but it is generally a painless experience. Either way, if they complain rather than offer actual advice, I easily tell them to fuck off.

The few times that has happened, the group itself tells the DPS to shape up and they'll vote kick them. I'm not the best tank out there by a long shot, but damned if I can't get through a few dungeons painlessly.

I am enjoying how each class has to go through a different thing to get its artifact weapon. It's making the start of the expansion very re-playable.

Most, I've done, are pretty good. Some are great even if massively cliche (Ret getting Ashbringer). Some are like "Um, give them a few mobs to kill and some voice acted lines. Then um..... EPIC POSE!" But by and far I think the quality slides to the better side of the scale.

I wonder - does Papa Wolf Genn Greyman know his precious daughter Tess has fallen in with outlaws and assassins? Also, is Tess a Worgen as well or still Human? It's been so long since I played a Worgen I've forgotten some details.

I THINK she and her mother avoided having to take the curse as they were already out/leaving Gilneas. The first time I saw her was after broken shore. She was in Alliance getup and was really only there to give exposition about her father being super-mad.

So yea, seeing her in the Dal sewers was rather confusing. I assume Blizzard was just short a few names to throw into the Hall.

[Lord Revan]

As far as we know Mia, Tess and Lorna are all humans, Lorna Crowley is explictly said to not have the curse and it's implied in the Genn short story that his wife and daughter don't have the curse either.

As for pugs when I've been tanking my overwhelming experience has been that DPS go out of their way to pull adds or just force you to do insanely bad pulls to prevent that in a clear effort to try to get you kicked from the group or as healer spam heal because the mage (without using ice barrier ofc) thought he could tank better then the actual tank, oh and there's 3 of them and 1 of me so I'll just have to bare it, which is why I hate tanking/healing LFG or LFR with a passion. the long queues don't bother me as I can use the timer to do other things.

I think Tess wasn't orginally in the council but rather Spoiler

Vanessa Vancleef was

also there was a generic orc dude in the earlier vid I've seen.

[Grumman]

The Invasion vendors are back, so if you're below 109, I recommend stocking up on bandages and other goodies. I bought a bunch of felbats and plan to sit on them for a few months.

The problem with that plan is that literally every other person in the game had the same idea. I doubt there will ever be enough new players to deplete the number of Fel Bats people bought for resale - you can only use a maximum of three per account, after all. Blizzard didn't let me buy most of the level 100 gear those vendors were offering, so I sank my shards into Warglaives instead. I'll save a couple for if I ever roll a Demon Hunter, and sell the rest for startup money.

[Darth Yan]

I'll give credit; the battle of the broken shore was a great "darkest hour" moment. The heroes got curb stomped, some of their best died, and the Legion indisputably won. Gul'dan has become a lot more badass by the way. He's apparently taken what happened to the prime counterpart and decided to be careful. And he's still an evil prick

Er.... they're the same person. Of course, a Tragic Hero can descend into villainy, but that doesn't eliminate the Tragic Hero phase.

Sylvannas' Tragic Hero phase was gone since the end of LK. Since then she has descended into a pit of villainy the likes of which would make Vader jealous. And no, thematically Vader and Anakin are not the same person, but I'm not turning this into a SW thread: so cut the "even if Anakin was." My point was that people were drawn to Vader because he was evil AND a badass. You don't find anyone trying to justify his murderous deeds, at least no one sane.

And I could buy that, but I can't buy anyone on Azeroth putting her in charge of shit. It's lazy ass writing.

The primary responsibility of "video game writers" is to generate a game that keeps the money rolling in via keeping the players playing. WoW seems to have mastered that one. Granted they no longer have 12 millions subscribers or whatever the peak number was, but there are still sufficient to keep the lights on. "Video game writers" are NOT there to generate a novel, or even a coherent narrative over the long term. Continuity is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list, as are rational motivations or a lot of other things considered essential in other media.

That's a pretty weak argument for shit writing. One of the big selling points of WoW by Blizzard and the playerbase was the massive amounts of built-in and easy to understand lore. Further, people didn't buy into 2 Mass Effect sequels based off the combat: people playing RPGs like well-written stories.

One of the appeals of certain types of video game characters is playing an evil character - my Foresaken warlock in WoW is an evil bad-ass who, if given a moral choice, is going to pick the bad one/left hand path/EEEEEEEEEEEEEVUUUUL! one. Because after a hard day at work suppressing my urge to choke the living shit out of someone that richly deserves it - i.e. "taking the high road" - it feels good to fantasize about cutting loose and giving into those evil, violent impulses.

Which fits into what I thought the Forsaken would actually be at launch: a hard-mode "fuck it all" faction KOS for Horde and Alliance. Having them in the Horde made no sense outside a "meat shield" level. The opening narration supported this.

However, after LK: the Undead playerbase kicked up a fuss about how unapologetically evil the Forsaken could and have been. A big part of this was attempting to turn Sylvy around as a character. To humanize her and give her a change of heart.... while she gassed civilians.

At this point I don't give a fuck about 90% of the narrative. We've got broken continuity, a reboot, and arbitrary personality changes. Who the fuck cares? Give me baubles and pew-pew. It's a fucking game, not the Great American Fantasy Novel.

Shit writing is shit writing. Imagine Genn had killed Sylvy at Legion start and the Horde were like "whatever." That's what the lore has become: Blizzard glossing over/flat-out ignoring what should be huge cock-ups.

So yes, in fact, you have a sub-group who are HAPPY Sylvanas is evil. Also, there can never be peace on Azeroth because then there'd be no reason for a new expansion so there always has to be something fucking things up. It will be "Yay! We defeated the Legion!" then of course Sylvanas will backstab someone or something, because there always has to be conflict to keep the game going. That's why it's WARcraft and no Diplomacycraft or Capitalistcommercecraft or whatever.

Expansion end-bosses: Kil'Jaeden, Arthas, Deathwing, Garrosh (an Orc supremacist at the time), Gul'Dan(Archi), and now the Legion: there are plenty of non-Alliance and non-Horde to wage war against.

That the Horde continue to backstab the shit out of the Alliance and Azeroth as a whole means they should have been dismantled.

But "oh, she murdered so-and-so's son in front of him" is not automatically disqualifying for leadership. Real history is replete with leaders who murdered and committed genocide and were hailed as heroes by their side (Vlad Tepes, for example). That's part of the point - the threat faced by Azeroth is so fucking terrible that people will unite behind an evil bitch if it gives them the chance to win. Rather like the Alliance Night Elves freed the Illidari to fight for Azeroth. War makes strange bedfellows (the alliance between Stalin and the UK/US during WWII). Have no fear, when the Legion is defeated whatever union was created to deal with them will immediately fracture and the various factions will go back to trying to exterminate each other.

The Nelves in the Alliance aren't continuing to try and fuck everyone. Sylvy can't even be counted on to not commit attrocities on her own allys: Blood Elves at SoO, Koltira which should have had the DK Horde faction at war, and now Warriors in general.

And her FIRST official act as warchief of the Horde was to cut a deal with cursed-Norse-Devil chick to enslave an entire race of beings for her own benefit. Not the Alliance, not the Horde, not even the Forsaken: her own personal benefit. While a war is going on and like CWM mentioned: trying to steal good soldiers in the fight against the Legion.

Kerrigian 2.0 is pure fucking cancer to Azeroth. She shouldn't be in charge of a latrine, much less an entire faction.

We could have had a moment where GREYMANE was hurting Azeroth with his vendetta against Sylvy. But NOPE: he just happens to stumble upon a plan that, if the roles were switched (imagine Graymane making the same deal to cure the Worgen curse) not a single fucking person would be claiming Greymane wasn't an asshole. And he damn sure would be out on his ass in the Alliance.... if Blizzard even bothered to write a few lines of dialog.

But "something something voo-doo spirits say Kerrgia... I mean ur, The Banshee Queen of Blade.... ur, whatever: SHE'S SUPER-SPECIAL YO! Put her in charge." I wonder if any Sylvy fanatics realize Blizzard is completely recycling Starcraft 2 horseshit for Sylvannas.

Kerrigan gets her head out of her ass after Raynor calls her out on the Moros and becames nicer (she didn't think Raynor would forgive her, Varian had nothing to offer her yet she showed mercy, and even before she knew raynor was alive she showed mercy and felt regret for some of the things she did.) Kerrigan actually becomes a better person over Heart even if it's late in the game. She also tries to do the right thing (Accepting the powers of the xel'naga to make amends and stop Amon.)

Also, with Kerrigan it's "she did a lot but without her we're all fucked." As such she's not to terrible. She genuinely mellows out and becomes nicer for selfless reasons (realizing "oh god I've been a bitch") and changing for the better.

[Darth Yan]

double post

[Civil War Man]

Profession are just fucked. Engineering is a joke. They want like 80 felslate per craft for the quest objectives and even then: the shit you get to make is garbage. The cost in mats alone is outrageous. I also read that, until it was just recently hotfix, a major quest objective was tied to a BC rare on a 1-4 day respawn timer. Haha, oh wow. Skinning was stealth nerfed to about 25% of it's original value.

I've heard through the grape vine that cooking is an absolute nightmare. I'm hearing that you can only get the new recipes by doing garrison-like Work Orders, and a lot of people are just flat out unable to level cooking because all the recipes they currently have are grey and they keep getting burnt food from the work orders so they aren't getting any new recipes.

Is it actually that bad, or are people exaggerating?

[Gerald Tarrant]

Is it actually that bad, or are people exaggerating?

It's that bad, my room-mate was showing me; you have this panda in Dalaran, and you ask him what recipes you can make with ingredient "x". Then you submit 5 or so ingredients to him, per work order, then every 2 hours or so there's a chance he'll give you the new recipe. My room-mate had no professions on his character, with off and on work in the test kitchen he'd unlocked 3 recipes, but that was submitting new food every time the panda completed his last work order. The short version is that he managed to get 3 recipes off of probably 40 submissions, and he decided RNG in profession drops is the silliest idea he's ever heard of. I didn't see anything that constituted RNG protection. It's entirely possible that you get burnt food after burnt food.

[Grumman]

The change they made to PvP currency sucks too. Before the Legion pre-expansion patch, you always made progress, win or lose. You'd earn more currency by being effective and winning than by losing, but even when you lost you'd still be one step closer to that heirloom or necklace you wanted to buy.

Then they replaced that with a system where the winners got a chest with a Mark of Honor and a random piece of gear, while the losers got a token amount of gold.

Then they changed it again and now the winners don't get Marks of Honor most of the time either. I still haven't got my first since Legion hit, and I've won half a dozen battlegrounds in that time.

[TheFeniX]

Kerrigan gets her head out of her ass after Raynor calls her out on the Moros and becames nicer (she didn't think Raynor would forgive her, Varian had nothing to offer her yet she showed mercy, and even before she knew raynor was alive she showed mercy and felt regret for some of the things she did.) Kerrigan actually becomes a better person over Heart even if it's late in the game. She also tries to do the right thing (Accepting the powers of the xel'naga to make amends and stop Amon.)

People are way too quick to accept a "change of heart" from a fictional character when they wouldn't do the same for someone in reality. If Dahmer saved a bus full of nuns and orphans from a flaming wreck, it still doesn't absolve him of crimes commited in the past. Sure, Starcraft and Azeroth and shitty places to live, but that doesn't excuse killing anyone who remotely gets in your way because they helped you out when it counted.

Specifics really don't matter though, it's that both characters routinely dodged repercussion for abhorrent behavior because "we need them." At least with Kerrigan it was actually true. There's only three big factions out there and they are fairly scattered. Even the Protoss don't see eye to eye on many things. Meanwhile ignoring the Ally/Horde stuff, Sylvanas should be at war with two Classes in total. Death Knights, who are allied with their faction but are big on "Ebon Blade First" and Warriors because they are Odyn's champions.

Is it actually that bad, or are people exaggerating?

What Gerald Tarrant said. It's a total mess. I looked it up after some trade chat bitching. The best of it? Originally, for one of the opening Engy quests, you were going to need FEASTS from cooking to complete it. Hilarious. They changed it to just needing the ingredients such as some fish and eggs.

Your best bet is really enchanting and jewelcrafting as the raiders are buying up everything getting ready for release. Also glyphs for the cosmetic stuff. But the materials cost is stupid.

The change they made to PvP currency sucks too. Before the Legion pre-expansion patch, you always made progress, win or lose. You'd earn more currency by being effective and winning than by losing, but even when you lost you'd still be one step closer to that heirloom or necklace you wanted to buy.

This I had read about/dealt with even before Legion. It reeks of the original SWTOR PvP system where daily/weekly wins were EVERYTHING. After that, people were just farming medals (which many were not about working with the team) and AFKing the rest of the match to farm valor. WoWs new system manages to be slightly worse than SWTOR since wins are everything.

Honestly, I think PvP race/faction switches are the reasoning behind it. EMFH finally got nerfed, so there's been a huge switch back to Horde since (IIRC) Belf's racial is now the FOTM. I have zero interest in dealing with another SWTOR system because in the past, at least failing through losses meant 8 or so matches got my a weapons. Now it's win or die. Gives me no incentive to deal with it unless I was in a PvP boosting guild.

By emphasizing only wins, the casuals might be persuaded to transfer with the PvP FOTM guys pushing ratings and other stuff. Easy money.

[Darth Yan]

Kerrigan actually evolves over the story, and one could make the case the infestation amplified her inner darkness and supressed her sense of empathy. Unlike Dahlmer she had no reason to be good yet she chooses it in the end. That's the difference. Kerrigan actually evolves into a nicer person, Sylvannas just stays nasty.

[Darth Yan]

Honestly I think that what should have happened with Sylvy is that over time she began to genuinely care for the horde (terminating the human plague because she mellowed out.) As such, after Arthas falls she devotes herself to helping the horde. I can see why she feels a need to ensure the foresaken endure (if it's because she cares for them) Then maybe you can have the Valkyr angle work (if she does it later after the legion invasion.)

I also think the angle Blizz wanted with the orcs in data was

1.) Even though most of the orcs in the camps were the children of those who committed warcrimes they were still beaten shat on and forced to live in their own vomit, which created a lot of anger issues
2.) Daelin (and later Varian's) antics convinced orcs the humans would be out to get them
3.) The alliance cutting off trade, and later the cataclysm, caused a decine in resources that resulted in starvation.

In such an environment Garrosh could have easily taken control and it's easy to see orcs falling for him. If blizzard made that clearer I think things would have been better. Or if they had more orcs oppose Garrosh

[White Haven]

There's a rather important detail that I think gets glossed over whenever Orcs get mentioned fluff-wise; of course humans are out to get them. The Orcs are still here. People forget that they are literally extraterrestrial invaders. The Dark Portal is that way, guys, go home. Don't like that your home's a bit fucked? Shame, that. Shouldn't have shattered it like a dinner plate.

[Civil War Man]

The change they made to PvP currency sucks too. Before the Legion pre-expansion patch, you always made progress, win or lose. You'd earn more currency by being effective and winning than by losing, but even when you lost you'd still be one step closer to that heirloom or necklace you wanted to buy.

This I had read about/dealt with even before Legion. It reeks of the original SWTOR PvP system where daily/weekly wins were EVERYTHING. After that, people were just farming medals (which many were not about working with the team) and AFKing the rest of the match to farm valor. WoWs new system manages to be slightly worse than SWTOR since wins are everything.

Honestly, I think PvP race/faction switches are the reasoning behind it. EMFH finally got nerfed, so there's been a huge switch back to Horde since (IIRC) Belf's racial is now the FOTM. I have zero interest in dealing with another SWTOR system because in the past, at least failing through losses meant 8 or so matches got my a weapons. Now it's win or die. Gives me no incentive to deal with it unless I was in a PvP boosting guild.

By emphasizing only wins, the casuals might be persuaded to transfer with the PvP FOTM guys pushing ratings and other stuff. Easy money.

For all of Blizzard's pedigree as a major game developer, they do sometimes make some real rookie mistakes. Anyone who put any thought into how that PvP system worked would have been able to tell them that they'd be creating a feedback loop where the losing faction would be unable to catch up.

I don't necessarily believe that they intentionally did that to incentivize micro-transactions for race and faction changes, though I wouldn't be surprised if the extra cash causes them to drag their feet on fixing it. Kind of like when there was a massive push by raiding guilds to get their members to race change to trolls during Throne of Thunder because a large number of the bosses in that raid were beasts.

[bilateralrope]

For all of Blizzard's pedigree as a major game developer, they do sometimes make some real rookie mistakes. Anyone who put any thought into how that PvP system worked would have been able to tell them that they'd be creating a feedback loop where the losing faction would be unable to catch up.

I don't necessarily believe that they intentionally did that to incentivize micro-transactions for race and faction changes, though I wouldn't be surprised if the extra cash causes them to drag their feet on fixing it. Kind of like when there was a massive push by raiding guilds to get their members to race change to trolls during Throne of Thunder because a large number of the bosses in that raid were beasts.

Even if it's intentional, it's still a bad thing in the long term. First there is the feedback loop of people switching to the winning side. Then there will be people leaving the winning side because they are bored of easy wins and/or taking far too long to find a match.

It only makes sense if Blizzard is planning for PvP to die. Maybe because the numbers show that it's going to die soon anyway, so they want to squeeze money out of it before it dies. Maybe because they want to speed the death along so that it dies before players notice that Blizzard has shifted resources away from PvP development.

[Darth Yan]

There's a rather important detail that I think gets glossed over whenever Orcs get mentioned fluff-wise; of course humans are out to get them. The Orcs are still here. People forget that they are literally extraterrestrial invaders. The Dark Portal is that way, guys, go home. Don't like that your home's a bit fucked? Shame, that. Shouldn't have shattered it like a dinner plate.

The orcs fled to Kalimdor and tried to start over. They had an accord with the humans before Daelin attacked them. It goes both ways.

[TheFeniX]

For all of Blizzard's pedigree as a major game developer, they do sometimes make some real rookie mistakes. Anyone who put any thought into how that PvP system worked would have been able to tell them that they'd be creating a feedback loop where the losing faction would be unable to catch up.

I don't necessarily believe that they intentionally did that to incentivize micro-transactions for race and faction changes, though I wouldn't be surprised if the extra cash causes them to drag their feet on fixing it. Kind of like when there was a massive push by raiding guilds to get their members to race change to trolls during Throne of Thunder because a large number of the bosses in that raid were beasts.

Fair enough, but I do think "they'll race/faction change if they want" does play a role in why they'll just make sweeping changes whenever they feel like and try out new systems, ignoring PTR feedback going back months, to try something new.

The orcs fled to Kalimdor and tried to start over. They had an accord with the humans before Daelin attacked them. It goes both ways.

Daelin dealt with an Orc invasion force. The civvy count of the Orcs during the original two wars had to be next to zero. It's only an issue because Orc women are just as fit to fight as men, even if the games where bereft of many stock female units. Even still, I can't wrap my head around the logistics required for the Orcs to be able to populate Azeroth in the time they did. It's been like one generation. Anyways, Daelin was a warmonger who couldn't let things go, during a time when "Humans" were no where near a cohesive faction, meanwhile the Orcs definitely were. Humans had been at war and uneasy peaces with other Human faction for years. This is why the Orcs in Warcraft 1 thought they'd be easy pickings. Even after the First War, you still found large outlier Humans who didn't want to get involved.

So, Daelin waging war is not a mark against the rest of the humans who were just trying to put things back together after a race targeted them for extermination. This is continually ignored: had the Orcs/Legion won the Second War, you'd have very few Humans/Dorfs/etc left alive AT ALL and with no extra planet housing millions of them.

And even then, Human forces helped the Horde defeat Daelin. Oh yea, and the Horde got to Kalimdor, unknowingly invaded Night Elf territory who knew the stories of how the Horde operate (during two previous wars), started clear cutting their land, then when they were met with force: "BETTER DRINK DEMON BLOOD!" Met with yet ANOTHER native race, and no Thrall around to yank their leash: they went right back to attempted genocide.

Total sidenote here: Maybe Thrall could have, I don't fucking know, just spitballing here: Not call his new faction The Horde. This shit would be like the KKK trying to rebrand and reform itself and ask minorities to be cool with it.

A lot of this is like trying to justify wiping out Native Americans because, after being pushed to the breaking point, certain tribes committed their own atrocities against military and civilian targets. Yea, it's not right to kill innocents who are part of an invasion of your land or give their military no quarter, but it's understandable. And as word spread across North America, I'm sure more and more tribes were positive a peaceful solution was not an option (because it sure as fuck wasn't as history showed). Unlike Native Americans though, Native Azeroth races have technological parity. So, there's actually a war, even though the Native Americans still inflicted numerous large losses to Western invaders.

[Darth Yan]

For all of Blizzard's pedigree as a major game developer, they do sometimes make some real rookie mistakes. Anyone who put any thought into how that PvP system worked would have been able to tell them that they'd be creating a feedback loop where the losing faction would be unable to catch up.

I don't necessarily believe that they intentionally did that to incentivize micro-transactions for race and faction changes, though I wouldn't be surprised if the extra cash causes them to drag their feet on fixing it. Kind of like when there was a massive push by raiding guilds to get their members to race change to trolls during Throne of Thunder because a large number of the bosses in that raid were beasts.

Fair enough, but I do think "they'll race/faction change if they want" does play a role in why they'll just make sweeping changes whenever they feel like and try out new systems, ignoring PTR feedback going back months, to try something new.

The orcs fled to Kalimdor and tried to start over. They had an accord with the humans before Daelin attacked them. It goes both ways.

Daelin dealt with an Orc invasion force. The civvy count of the Orcs during the original two wars had to be next to zero. It's only an issue because Orc women are just as fit to fight as men, even if the games where bereft of many stock female units. Even still, I can't wrap my head around the logistics required for the Orcs to be able to populate Azeroth in the time they did. It's been like one generation. Anyways, Daelin was a warmonger who couldn't let things go, during a time when "Humans" were no where near a cohesive faction, meanwhile the Orcs definitely were. Humans had been at war and uneasy peaces with other Human faction for years. This is why the Orcs in Warcraft 1 thought they'd be easy pickings. Even after the First War, you still found large outlier Humans who didn't want to get involved.

So, Daelin waging war is not a mark against the rest of the humans who were just trying to put things back together after a race targeted them for extermination. This is continually ignored: had the Orcs/Legion won the Second War, you'd have very few Humans/Dorfs/etc left alive AT ALL and with no extra planet housing millions of them.

And even then, Human forces helped the Horde defeat Daelin. Oh yea, and the Horde got to Kalimdor, unknowingly invaded Night Elf territory who knew the stories of how the Horde operate (during two previous wars), started clear cutting their land, then when they were met with force: "BETTER DRINK DEMON BLOOD!" Met with yet ANOTHER native race, and no Thrall around to yank their leash: they went right back to attempted genocide.

Total sidenote here: Maybe Thrall could have, I don't fucking know, just spitballing here: Not call his new faction The Horde. This shit would be like the KKK trying to rebrand and reform itself and ask minorities to be cool with it.

A lot of this is like trying to justify wiping out Native Americans because, after being pushed to the breaking point, certain tribes committed their own atrocities against military and civilian targets. Yea, it's not right to kill innocents who are part of an invasion of your land or give their military no quarter, but it's understandable. And as word spread across North America, I'm sure more and more tribes were positive a peaceful solution was not an option (because it sure as fuck wasn't as history showed). Unlike Native Americans though, Native Azeroth races have technological parity. So, there's actually a war, even though the Native Americans still inflicted numerous large losses to Western invaders.

That's why I mentioned the camps. They may have been the most humane option but most of the people (or a good number) were the children of those who actually committed the atrocious war crimes. As someone else pointed out

The problem of the camps was to deliver the same treatment (even if said treatment was merely psychological) to children and adults alike.

You may argue the adults deserved it; and yes, they did. Perhaps even more. Perhaps death and much, much more.

The children on the other hand... they didn´t. The negligence with the youngsters was what made possible for someone delusional like Garrosh to manipulate them and earn their loyalty. The discontent. The notion a complete generation of innocent people HAS TO pay for the errors of the previous generetion only makes space for hate. Hate for said parents. Hate for the punishers. Hate for themselves.

In spite of most of the kids not actually doing anything they were still beaten shat on and forced to live in misery and squalor. That creates a lot of anger and resentment; Daelin's antics helped exacerbate that, and the lack of trade leading to death made things even worse. Many were born in the camps (given how long the camps were around that's kinda the only option)

With Grom the night elves technically attacked first. The orcs didn't even know anyone was in those woods and the night elves immediately attacked them. Given that the orcs had friendly contact with the tauren an accord may have been reached had either side tried diplomacy first. Grom was an idiot but the Night elves were too

[TheFeniX]

In spite of most of the kids not actually doing anything they were still beaten shat on and forced to live in misery and squalor. That creates a lot of anger and resentment; Daelin's antics helped exacerbate that, and the lack of trade leading to death made things even worse. Many were born in the camps (given how long the camps were around that's kinda the only option)

No one is claiming the Alliance didn't pull some shady shit, but they weren't exactly in the position to do anything out of the goodness of their hearts. Ignoring the abuses, which no one defends, what exactly could be done with the Horde children? Steal them and raise them with humans? There was no good answer on what to do with the Horde children and if it weren't for the abuses they suffered on top of that, it would have been the best option available besides outright killing them or throwing them back through the portal. You have to realize: how many humans or other Azeroth races had even MET an Orc that wasn't trying to kill them and their families? For all they knew: Orcs were incapable of living peacefully with non-Orcs and that's not exactly far from the truth.

For the record, the Alliance at the start of WC3 was in such a bad way, the Alliance Footman was little better than milita. This is because the wars had drained skilled-manpower so much, they couldn't field well-trained soldiers. They were basically giving farmers crash courses in combat and slapping some plate on their shoulders and a sword in their hand.

As for the camps making Orcs mad at humans: The Dragonmaw never spent a day in them and continued to brutalize the areas where they ran off to. There were other Orc clans in this vein as well. Grom continued to wage his own private war against the remnants of the Alliance. An Alliance so fucking wrecked from multiple attempts at being genocided, they could barely field any adequate warriors.

I also don't recall much of anything mentioned (aside from Thrall) about abuses of the children in WC3 proper. The Orcs became listless and sat in their own filth of their own accord due to reliance on Demon Blood. Thrall lost his shit because the Orcs had lost their desire to fight.

I'm sorry, this is a bad thing? And this is from Thrall: "Once proud warriors." Humans are more than capable (and mostly were this way before Warcraft 1) at beating swords into plowshares. When Orcs do it, it's terrible or something.

Yea, the Alliance has become sort of dicks over the years, though no where NEAR what they should have become. Earth humans would have been EXCEEDINGLY more brutal in the same situation. Blizzard is very quick to point this out "Alliance be dicks yo." Except the whole reason this huge Alliance exists was to fight against their own extermination. The original Azeroth humans had their dust-ups, but were nearly unprepared for the original Horde invasion. So if the Alliance is a bunch of warmongering asshats with an axe-to-grind against Orcs: it's well deserved.

The Horde really hasn't changed. Garrosh and the numerous Orcs that backed him proved that. Thrall and maybe a few others (like Drek'Thar to an extent) have no qualms against pretty much any crime on "not-Orcs." How quick are they to jump into taking whatever god-like power they can to crush their enemies?

With Grom the night elves technically attacked first. The orcs didn't even know anyone was in those woods and the night elves immediately attacked them. Given that the orcs had friendly contact with the tauren an accord may have been reached had either side tried diplomacy first. Grom was an idiot but the Night elves were too

The Nelfs knew nothing about Orcs dealing with the Tauren. What they did know what that a self-named "Horde" flying banners very similar to the ones that, on multiple occasions, tried to kill everyone they could on Azeroth were destroying their lands.

So, here's the options:
1. Hide until you have nowhere left to hide.
2. Reveal yourself and negotiate with a force that has NEVER tried to negotiate via anything other than an axe blade to the neck.
3. Strike first and drive back the invaders.

Option 3 is pretty much your best option. And if you're pissing off Demi-Gods, maybe you should re-think where you get your lumber from. I mean, Cenarius wasn't exactly wrong here since the situation drove the Orcs right back to slamming Demon Blood like Tequila. I don't even recall retreat being on the Orc nock-list.

[Lord Revan]

actually Fenix during the third war night elves knew jackshit about what was happening in the parts of Azeroth known as "the eastern kingdoms" nor does the Horde emblem (the symbol most often shown in horde banners) look nothing like the emblem of the Burning Legion (which we have seen), hell not even the "warsong" emblem looks that much like the Burning Legion emblem that the Kaldorei would mistake the horde for legion forces.

[Grumman]

And even then, Human forces helped the Horde defeat Daelin. Oh yea, and the Horde got to Kalimdor, unknowingly invaded Night Elf territory who knew the stories of how the Horde operate (during two previous wars), started clear cutting their land, then when they were met with force: "BETTER DRINK DEMON BLOOD!" Met with yet ANOTHER native race, and no Thrall around to yank their leash: they went right back to attempted genocide.

As I once said in the Warcraft movie thread, the orcs' use of demon blood is an important mitigating factor to both the camps and the Night Elf preemptive attacks against the invading orcs. The orcs were physically marked by their pledge of allegiance to literal demons. That mark lasts longer than their allegiance did, but it's basically like an army of tattooed neo-Nazis showed up on their doorstep and started wrecking the place. That they were actually former neo-Nazis who hadn't had their old tattoos removed doesn't change the fact that the onus is on them to clear up that understandable misinterpretation by not being a bunch of assholes, not on everyone else.

[Lord Revan]

And even then, Human forces helped the Horde defeat Daelin. Oh yea, and the Horde got to Kalimdor, unknowingly invaded Night Elf territory who knew the stories of how the Horde operate (during two previous wars), started clear cutting their land, then when they were met with force: "BETTER DRINK DEMON BLOOD!" Met with yet ANOTHER native race, and no Thrall around to yank their leash: they went right back to attempted genocide.

As I once said in the Warcraft movie thread, the orcs' use of demon blood is an important mitigating factor to both the camps and the Night Elf preemptive attacks against the invading orcs. The orcs were physically marked by their pledge of allegiance to literal demons. That mark lasts longer than their allegiance did, but it's basically like an army of tattooed neo-Nazis showed up on their doorstep and started wrecking the place. That they were actually former neo-Nazis who hadn't had their old tattoos removed doesn't change the fact that the onus is on them to clear up that understandable misinterpretation by not being a bunch of assholes, not on everyone else.

while I agree that it works as migating factor for the camps (though we should also remember that interment camps were the less extreme solution, some alliance leaders including Genn Greymane wanted to kill all orcs), we should ask if the kaldorei knew if the green skin was result of demonic pack and not the orcs natural skin color (the form of a demonic pack the night elves would most familiar with is the Satyrs), so to use the analogy you said, we should ask if the person knew what those tattoos meant.

Oh and naturally green skinned humanoid races do exist in Azeroth, goblins and forrest trolls for example.

[Darth Yan]

I think they made it clear that there were a few beatings in Lord of the Clans. They were also deliberately kept in the shittiest conditions imaginable (that may have been Blackmoore as the overseer of all the camps, but because of the expenses it's safe to say he was let off the hook for running them cheaply.)

Also, the NE's had no clue the orcs were tied with the legion. Fenix is outright lying about that. They didn't know a damn thing what was going on in the east, and Tyrande is clearly shocked to see Archimonde back.

The Shattering makes a mention about how after the foresaken pulled their little stunt at the wrath gate the alliance cut off trade with the orcs, which resulted in mass starvation and people dying. Basically the orcs were punished for what their jackass friends did. I can easily see how a demagogue could exploit that.

Edit: Here's the quote

"My people hunger, they thirst for clean water, they must have wood for housing. They believe they were wronged when the night elves closed the trade routes. They see this unwillingness to fill basic
needs as a brutal act—and someone, somewhere, decided to retaliate in kind.”
“Slaughtering night elves and removing their skins is in-kind retaliation for closed trade?” Her voice rose.
“Closed trade permits children to starve, to be exposed to the elements, to become sick. The logic … I can follow it. And so can others."

There was no clear answer. The camps may have been the most humane option but they were implemented terribly.

PS

The only experience NEs had with orcs before was Broxigar the Red (who had grayish skin I think). Tyrande might not make the connection between that guy she befriended millennia ago and the green skinned ones she sees now.

[Darth Yan]

In hindsight it was wrong of me to accuse Fenix of outright lying. I apologize

[Civil War Man]

I think they made it clear that there were a few beatings in Lord of the Clans. They were also deliberately kept in the shittiest conditions imaginable (that may have been Blackmoore as the overseer of all the camps, but because of the expenses it's safe to say he was let off the hook for running them cheaply.)

As I mentioned before, one big difference here is that while Blackmoore is a horrible person who did horrible things, no one in the Alliance defends him. It doesn't speak well to the Alliance that they put him in charge of the camps, but they at least aren't memorializing him in the same way that the Horde does with someone like Doomhammer, who was Warchief of the Horde when it was committing some of its worst atrocities (and he can't even use demon blood as an excuse, since he didn't drink it).

Also, the NE's had no clue the orcs were tied with the legion. Fenix is outright lying about that. They didn't know a damn thing what was going on in the east, and Tyrande is clearly shocked to see Archimonde back.

I seem to recall that in WC3, one of the first NE cutscenes involved Cenarius and I think Tyrande spying on the Orcs as they cut down the trees, and Cenarius immediately detecting that all of the Orcs there were Fel tainted.

The Shattering makes a mention about how after the foresaken pulled their little stunt at the wrath gate the alliance cut off trade with the orcs, which resulted in mass starvation and people dying. Basically the orcs were punished for what their jackass friends did. I can easily see how a demagogue could exploit that.

Though, on the other hand, it's unfair to blame one nation for refusing to trade with the allies of an enemy nation. And you could easily argue that the Night Elves are perfectly justified in not wanting to trade with the Orcs, considering that the Orcs' first instinct once the Night Elves cut off trade was to invade Night Elf territory and start deforesting it. At that point, the Orcs would not be trading with the Night Elves. They'd be committing extortion. Give us lumber, or we invade your lands and take it from you.

The starvation cannot wholly be blamed on the Night Elves, either, considering that it wasn't the Night Elves that polluted the Durotar water table. Nor does deforesting Ashenvale fix the starvation problem, unless the Orcs eat lumber.

The mass starvation that happened after the Shattering reveals some deep-seated cultural issues with the Orcs. Namely, they don't seem to build much in the way of infrastructure beyond what's required to feed a war economy, they refuse to change how they do things even when it's not sustainable, and when they lose access to the most convenient source of resources, they immediately try to take it by force instead of looking for alternatives. Very little attempt to grow food beyond a few pig farms. Being forced to import fresh water from Mulgore because they polluted Durotar's water table. Demanding lumber from the Night Elves to feed their war machine, and invading their territory when they refuse, instead of looking for alternatives to wood for construction and filling in the gaps by trading with allies (just saying, the Forsaken have a lot of untapped forests themselves).