Homebrew system thread II, part 2

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Here's the bit that's sitting right in Larric's blind spot; a fair few of my characters, story as well as game, follow a sort of Russellian mould- eric frank russell, that is. That Heinlein quote- embarrassed I can't remember who has it as a sig, but it's a board member- about what a man should be able to do? Russell's characters can do all of that, and boy do they know it. Capable and self- reliant to the point of being almost sociopathic by default.

What do you think it feels like being on the opposite side from somebody like that? Being the target of the brilliantly, deviantly manipulative? Being a piece on somebody else's chessboard- not quite sure what piece you are, where everything else is, or if that's the right game after all?

I have been dropping hints to that effect, after all; if you're feeling frog marched, that means the little grey cells are working.

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Here's the bit that's sitting right in Larric's blind spot; a fair few of my characters, story as well as game, follow a sort of Russellian mould- eric frank russell, that is. That Heinlein quote- embarrassed I can't remember who has it as a sig, but it's a board member- about what a man should be able to do? Russell's characters can do all of that, and boy do they know it. Capable and self- reliant to the point of being almost sociopathic by default.

What do you think it feels like being on the opposite side from somebody like that? Being the target of the brilliantly, deviantly manipulative? Being a piece on somebody else's chessboard- not quite sure what piece you are, where everything else is, or if that's the right game after all?

Well, I already knew we were becoming involved in a complex power play with a minimum of three sides, even before the baron's return. Back then it was Sir Detrick-and-allies versus his rivals (who may split into subfactions depending on your analysis), with (at least) the Krylanyans trying to play those two sides.

Now it is (at least) the Valdemironi and the political figures they've suborned (including most of Detrick's former enemies), versus the baron and those loyal to him (mostly from time spent in the First Age fortress), with someone (probably still including the Krylanyans) trying to play those two sides.

Note that this is a lower bound.

I have been dropping hints to that effect, after all; if you're feeling frog marched, that means the little grey cells are working.

Well, I-the-player am being frog marched by what Larric would try to do, given the stimuli in front of him. His actions are utterly predictable to me, give him a bunch of people acting stupidly under brainwashing and he will try to enlighten them with the biggest clue-by-four he can lay his hands on. Predictably, always.

One of those situations where the character runs away with you.

The possibility that someone else has assessed Larric's character roughly as well as I have is well within the realm of possibility. The chance that someone deliberately maneuvered Larric (and/or the rest of the party) into position to try this did not occur to me, except insofar as I knew that Lisanna, at least, wanted us here and accepted that...

I'm not sure Lisanna actually knows Larric well enough to predict that he'd try to do this, but she might have guessed just from his actions in the baron's council chamber.

Dame D'Avariel might understand Larric that well, but it isn't entirely in keeping with her previous interactions with him, which suggested that she doesn't get what drives him. Without knowing what drives him, without realizing that in his heart of hearts he really is starting to wish that blind unthinkingism had a single neck so that he might strangle it... she wouldn't be able to predict this exact move, I would think.

Nobody else comes specifically to mind who might have tried to steer HIM here, personally. Though any number of people might have wanted to use the party collectively as a knight on their chessboard- moving at funny angles and hopping over obstacles, but still limited to a fairly predictable set of moves.

[Kaelan]

Nobody else comes specifically to mind who might have tried to steer HIM here

Spoiler

Its Fifi, the evil overlord of the known lands and great emperor in disguise with the staff of power.

Ears ringing from the blast wave (Dirt's slightly in front right?) he draws a deep breath, secures his stance on the ground feeling the earth beneath his feet. Reaching out with his mind he asks his friend Earth if he is willing to be shown up by Air. Trying to get the ground underfoot the Valdemironi feet to tremble (Earth magic) to get their attention Dirt Bellows "GO HOME"

OOC - Dirt still works on magic in terms of earth, wind, fire, sea, spirit. Thankfully magic works to bending the world to what you think reality should be, and not what it actually is.

[Simon_Jester]

IC-ish:

The idea was that the extremely loud voice would be channeled past you guys and emerge from ahead of us, as if Larric's voice was coming from somewhere a bit in front of Dirt/Dale/randomguyLarricdoesn'tknow. Significantly less than power-in-yards, though.

Plus, either it might be loud enough to jolt someone from backscatter and echoes, or it might be that Larric didn't manage quite as tight a control as he'd hoped.

OOC:

Moreover, magic actually DOES work in terms of earth, wind, fire, and water.

Larric is funny because he thinks reality should be what it is, and views his magic as a sort of special favor granted by Nature because he cares. As I've said before, if there was a druidism of the physical sciences, Larric would probably join it.

[Fiji_Fury]

Dale is pretty worn out here. He's been at the end of his rope for a while, and his amnesia didn't start him off in the most stable of mental/emotional places. The desperate conditions of Qulan, and power struggle, and knowing that he's being caught in a web of deceit, intrigue and manipulation, while barely himself being clear about his own priorities is pushing him to the brink of exhaustion. But that is not the way of his order. In death, there is peace. Dale does not seek death, but the order of D'nor is typically much more stoic and calm. These principles would serve him better than the current tempest he's been caught up in.

Seeking to calm himself, he understands some of what Larric and Dirt are trying to do, but instead of manipulating or changing the crowd, he's going to take a moment simply to feel it and where the flows and eddies of magic are within the space around him. If nothing else, he desperately needs to gather his own wits back and try to understand the situation rather than merely reacting to it.

[Jub]

IC:

Bertram, experienced enough with the arcane to have some shot at resisting it, can feel magic being directed to the front lines. He's not nearly skilled enough to understand the what sort of effects to expect from the magic, but he makes a move to give himself a bit of time and space away from the front line. He uses it by looking around and assessing the situation; making a plan of action for if it disrupts the enemy front line.

If what he sees after Larric's voice booms out over the enemy allows for it, he'll tap Dale on the shoulder and say, "This gives us a chance to pull their commander off the front line. Perhaps he might be of use to us if we can rouse him and make him speak the truth about what's going on here."

If it has a lesser or no effect he'll instead press forward at Dale's most threatening foe while saying, "Get that enemy commander off the front lines and take a breather. It looks like you've been fighting longer than a man should be expected to."

OOC:

This is assuming that Bertram is able to gather enough information to get a feel for how worn out Dale is and correctly read the battle field. If everything really goes to shit he'll default to holding ground with his axe and shield with the aim of keeping the enemy from recovering their downed commander.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

That kind of precise detail is beyond almost anyone, and would be impossible to arrange anyway except retroactively- technically Countess Calvern would be capable of it, but there are three baronies, a major city, several other towns, many villages and a large population of wibbly things, so she has ample reason to be busy elsewhere. Something, and someone, operating in fuzzier terms and willing to make bits up as they go along.

Hm. That spoilered coment has got me thinking about some of the things dark elves like to grow in their gardens, and parasites and spores and other interesting dirty tricks. Something like that would not be allowed to happen without warning- I do so dislike Hackmaster's voluminous library of instant- kill tiny monsters- but in other circumstances it's quite possible.


The voice- casting works quite well; some of them are indeed intimidated by a mage obviously about to lose his temper in a big way and turn them all into burning things. Between that, the tentacle demon suddenly bursting into green fire, Dirt being intimidatory, and Bertram dragging the battered Templar to safety- Dale and Dirt fending off attempts to rescue him- between all of that, the Valdemironi start to break and run.

You have a prisoner, if somewhat dented, and a staff. And a serious need to make all of this just bloody stop. Reason may still be another barrier away, though- what now?

[Fiji_Fury]

Suggestions for group action:
1) Slightly heal the Templar and wake him for some questioning. Lisanna should have the power and the skills to get him awake without being drooling-dumb exhausted from healing. Dale does too (well, the right powers but maybe not so much the skill/control right now) but...
2) That staff seems pretty damned important. A close examination of it including Larric's analytical thinking, a priest of Ikhrans (spelling?) knowledge and Dale's own perceptions and grab-bag of memories/knowledge should tell us a lot more about why it matters, what it's doing and perhaps even where it came from (evidence of who else is involved in all this perhaps?).

"Taking some time to find out more about this staff and question the Templar may expose us to a regrouped Valdemironi militia. We need more information before we blindly press forward into another fight."

[Jub]

"I agree, staying out in the streets seems foolish. Might I suggest we pull back to my inn and use it as a defensive position?" Offers Bertram.

[Simon_Jester]

Larric is panting, he looks like a man just down from having been swept up in a fit of rage, with an indefinable sense of "pushed himself too hard, but isn't feeling it yet.

The alchemist turns to Bertram. "It's your shop, if you want to." Then he looks at the court sorceress. "Lisanna? You said the staff might let us unbind the mind-witching on the mob. I've got a sense there's more than just the Valdemironi behind this, but they'd never have done something like this if they didn't at least think it was their show. I think your plan sounds wise."

OOC:

I'm not sure anyone's actually come out and said in the presence of the entire group what Lisanna wants the staff for, so I wanted to make sure it was out there in-character.

What, roughly, is Larric's current physical and mental/thaumaturgical condition? Is there anything it'd be unusually dangerous for him to attempt right now?

Also, I am sincerely curious as to whether the Insight thing had any effect here. One thing I must be quite annoying about by now is my efforts to figure out if Insight is good for anything other than scrying; since our setting has quite a liberal dose of illusions and mind-manipulating magic, I'd really like to have a good sense for how such magic can be countered.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

She did explain a bit; to Dirt who has apparently forgotten all about it.

Dale is tired and low on mana, Larric has spent what he gained since making it back from the mountain almost, fourteen points left.

Almost all the mind controlling magic out there is religious; very little of it exists in the broad course of magic in general. Active counters (which can include, for instance, Dirt' s crossbow) are the easiest bet.

'Look on the positive side; this is what being a hero actually consists of.' Lisanna says. 'Constantly playing catchup, never a moment's rest or peace, usually at your wits' end, bouncing from panic to panic- amazing why so many people want to do it really.
If we can get this-' The staff- to their temple, we should be able to break their enchantment without too much more blood being shed. The guild are holding things together at the castle, we may have some help at the temple. Well?'

[Jub]

"Will we be in any shape to fight whatever might lie in our path if we head straight to the temple?" Asks Bertram looking over the rest of the group. "My inn is just up the road and it should be a sturdy enough place to defend if it comes to that, but if all of you feel well enough to do some more chopping I'm all for ending this madness."

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Well, the reason I ask is... it's like this.

Given the history of the setting and the fact that the 'current' magic rules of the setting are based on the changes made to how magic was taught after the fall of the Terminal Empire, there are obvious reasons why wizards aren't trusted with mind-affecting magic.

On the other hand, I would think, purely from inference, that there would be a rich array of methods and techniques for foiling other people's mind control, if nothing else because the armies which broke the Black Towers would have found themselves needing it about every five minutes.

So worthwhile wizards would almost have to have some way of stopping illusions and protecting people from mind-altering effects. Active counters are, yes, an obviously good idea- but somehow I got the idea that you could (for instance) use Insight to show people that they're being tricked- they can still see the illusion but know for what it is. Is there nothing like that in the repertoire of the well-prepared Kuquani wizard?

IC:

"Will we be in any shape to fight whatever might lie in our path if we head straight to the temple?" Asks Bertram looking over the rest of the group. "My inn is just up the road and it should be a sturdy enough place to defend if it comes to that, but if all of you feel well enough to do some more chopping I'm all for ending this madness."

Larric's brains are starting to rally- apparently no major lasting effects from his attempt to crack the brainwashing.

"If your inn's not the temple of Valdemiron, it won't do for putting an end to this. You can bet your last copper I'll be paying you a visit after this blows over, though. And thanks, I know it's a tough thing for a man to offer.

As to fighting through things..."

Larric makes a sweeping gesture including the surprisingly crafty ogre with his penchant for demolishing entire squads of enemy troops, the death-priest who just had his sword at a hostage's neck, the court sorceress who appears to have puppetized a green burning tentacle monster, and the company-strength band of Ikhrani militia who've been at least holding their own so far. Probably including a number of people Bertram knows rather well, as the town fire department if nothing else.

"You know, I think we'll be all right."

[Fiji_Fury]

"Like it or not, the Temple of Valdemiron is where the threads of this problem are gathered. We need to deal with the problem there. Let us press on. I look forward to enjoying the hospitality of your inn Bertram... after we deal with the Temple."

Dale hefts his sword (the drawn blade is one of two swords he is carrying, plus both obvious and non-obvious knives) and adjusts the straps of the shield he has slung across his back.

"Let us see what other hellish surprises will spring forth into our path."

OOC: Being worn down as much as he is, Dale's not terribly optimistic at the moment. We'll see if addressing the current crisis brings a short respite. If so, he'll probably be much better centred. If not... well I may have to explore the role-playing of a further mental breakdown...

[Simon_Jester]

Larric scratches his chin.* "That wirework shield from the mountain'd be a fine thing right now. Their priests will be trying to scramble our brains with magic. I think we'll have to just lay into them and hope for the best- besides, their best mind-benders will have to be over with the mob at the castle."

*I think he managed to get a shave in earlier today before all this blew up...?

[Jub]

"If you think you're all fresh enough to storm that temple I'm all for it. I'd like nothing better than to see this madness ended before more damage can be done."

OOC: If Bertram knows any back routes through the city or rumored weaknesses in the temple walls this is where he'd offer that information up.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Yes, Larric is in reasonably good physical condition, and is moderately presentable- not that anyone is much worried about that except himself.

Slightly wrong about the history of it, though- most of the methods and techniques for foiling mind control are that religious magic which is currently being abused. Some of the revisions, though, were not as radical as the new order would have liked; it proved impossible to entirely delete from the repertoire most of the powers, and quite a lot of the clean up consisted at chalk- face level of simply not teaching the little tricks of the trade.

Sense magic, for instance, can be used for more than merely optical illusions, and for that matter for anaesthesia, but- where, precisely, does perception exist? In the sense organs, or in the mind? If you can make someone hear voices and see visions, if you can get feedback loops running that make their body react the way you want them to, if you can play with what they sense and how they react to it until they feel that this is genuine, then is that not mind control by other means?

The catch is that relatively few of these exploits and adaptations are passed around, or spoken of openly. (Can Shape magic, for instance, be used to shape something as inherently formless as a thought?) Independently rediscovered is another matter, but- zoom in for a moment; in character, who would be both able and willing to pass on their secrets?



There are ways Bertram knows; two, at least, one of which may be guarded. The town of Qulan is not massively old, but there has been something here for a long time. Being by the shore of a lake, the water table is high, and what of the, for want of a better term, undercity, there actually is- if there are monsters down there, they are water- breathers. There is a way through the rubble and collapsed cellars and old basements, but they might know of it too. Or you could go deeper, with fewer human obstacles on the way.

[Simon_Jester]

OOC:

Yes, Larric is in reasonably good physical condition, and is moderately presentable- not that anyone is much worried about that except himself.

It's mostly that scratching his chin is one of his tics, and I as a player like to keep track of how long it's been since he last shaved. Five day growth of beard is itchy.

Since in this case that was several hours of game time and several months of real time ago, I got mixed up.

The catch is that relatively few of these exploits and adaptations are passed around, or spoken of openly. (Can Shape magic, for instance, be used to shape something as inherently formless as a thought?) Independently rediscovered is another matter, but- zoom in for a moment; in character, who would be both able and willing to pass on their secrets?

Indeed.

That being the case, I suspect Larric is going to start trying to figure out Insight tricks for countering mind-altering magic. From what I've heard so far, he can use it to scry and analyze substances, structures, and objects. He can use it to understand the nature of a thing, and to know an illusion for what it is, and in that sense to reveal the truth.

So far he's been trying to use that power to reveal truth, as a tool to reveal illusions and tricks to other people. If he's feeling any success at all, he'll keep practicing. Which sort of leads into my original question of whether Larric's attempt to use Insight to damage the puppet-strings holding the Valdemironi troops actually seemed to budge those strings. Or whether they simply broke those strings and fled in terror because of all the loud scary things in front of them.

Ideally there'd be a synergy, they're scared and they realize they've been tricked at the same time, which is the ideal combination if you're trying to get the other guy to fail his "am I getting paid enough for this" check.

IC:

There are ways Bertram knows; two, at least, one of which may be guarded. The town of Qulan is not massively old, but there has been something here for a long time. Being by the shore of a lake, the water table is high, and what of the, for want of a better term, undercity, there actually is- if there are monsters down there, they are water- breathers. There is a way through the rubble and collapsed cellars and old basements, but they might know of it too. Or you could go deeper, with fewer human obstacles on the way.

Since Bertram shares what he knows with the (rest of the?) party, Larric will say:

"Whichever way is faster, I think. They only have so much strength. They're running a mob, guarding their temple gates, chasing us around in circles, I don't know who they have watching the back door but he's probably not their best man.

"Hmmm... what if the militia attack the gates while we sneak in below... wait, how would the militia know we're ready... bad plan. Never mind.

Specifically to Bertram- "By the way, I didn't catch your name. I'm Larric. Larric Smith. Pleased to meet you." The alchemist extends a hand.

[Jub]

"You may be right about their strength and our need for haste being greater than our need to stay hidden, but I wonder if they would expect us to know of another way in and if it would be nearly as guarded as the front gate would be?" Bertram leaves that suggestion to the group before turning to Larric, shaking the offered hand and replying, "Bertram Shepard and pleased to have met you as well."

[Kaelan]

OOC
Sorry for the delay in posting, things have been going manic around here at the moment.

IC
So, either we go thru humans, or strange otherworld creatures. If I can recall last time we ventured via an underground cavern it didn't go exactly to plan...

alternatively there is always plan B.

"Plenty of dead priest people here." Hefting up the fifi with staff that they are after. "How'bout play dress up and walk in holding stick they want?"

[Fiji_Fury]

"Clever idea, but no. The clothing is spattered with blood and any priest, Acolyte or even likely the Templars would be very likely to see past the disguise and recognize servants of other gods or 'heretics.' We move ourselves from a position of strength to one of vulnerability and risk exactly what they seem to want/need while doing so. I would go so far as to advise that we stay all together and approach the Temple of Valdemiron directly. Qulan needs more than merely an end to the current scheme. It needs a 'win' to bring people in the community together. Let us help that happen."

[Simon_Jester]

Larric grins wearily at the irony of what he's about to say.

"Dirt, you're just too tricky for my poor little human brain.* I'm with Dale, up and at them is good, having a few good men sneak a short ways through a back way might work. If things get complicated... not so much. We've got, what-" he turns around and eyeballs the size of the Ikhrani militia-blob-crowd- "a hundred fifty men? Two hundred? I think we can take whatever we're going to run into, with some of Ikhran's priests, and Lisanna, with us."

OOC:

*I would hope that after the past several days it is obvious to Dirt that Larric respects his intelligence, and is simply playing off the usual human stereotype of the 'dumb ogre.' And, for that matter, the presumable ogre stereotype of the 'tricky little human."

[Jub]

"So, I guess it's settled. We take the quickest route to the temple, bash our way in, and mess up whatever we need to to break this mind control nonsense. Then, when we make it, I break open a cask of the good stuff and we relax and figure out what to do about the mess we'll be left with."

[Kaelan]

- picks a bit of skull of his shoulder and looks around......

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Was that a subtle hint to get on with it?

What happens next is that you do indeed- with much of the Ikhrani militia, well about half of them, fifty, the others either casualties themselves or looking after prisoners and wounded- take the shortest route to the temple. There are flares of magic clashing over the castle, much shouting and chanting.

The temple itself is on a large cleared plot, about twenty yards of grass all around- there are various bits and pieces, debris of temporary shelters left lying around, and a few holes in the ground.

The holy symbol is that of a crown and mailed fist, so their temples are usually round in outline, with a tower in the centre; there is a gate in the base of the tower, facing the main gate in the outer ring. Centre of the temple should be the ground floor of the tower.

The gate is open, but there are people on the walls. Plan?