Attn: XCOM shit in this thread.

[CaptHawkeye]

As a minor aside i'm kind of sad these TBT games still don't grasp more tactical concepts. Due to the simplistic nature of the role-to-hit mechanics the only thing that really matters is like you say, racing to the 100% accuracy stat. You know what game this genre could do to take lessons from?

Company of Heroes. That game abstracts the squad level tactics these games want fantastically and is only really hurt by Relic's inability to grasp proper balance. It would not be hard to take a game like CoH and make it turn based. That's just my opinion though. I have limited experience with this genre and can't talk about games like Jagged Alliance.

[Stark]

I think people like the idea that combat is a series of aimed shots that hit or do nothing. It lets them move chess pieces with 75% chance to hit around and feel like a tactical genius. None of these games are really bout people in combat.

[CaptHawkeye]

That must be it otherwise you see more than just squads of 4 guys making attacks challenged by one single detail. There would be weapon teams, vehicles, tactical aid, etc. TBT games seem to incorporate little in the way of combined arms because combined arms is for games where you actually manage things and don't just race to beat the game's single mechanic.

[Vendetta]

I've lost interest in the game already. The combat never gets more interesting than the start and piling HP-heavy enemies on the late game is not something I like to see. If this is how the series was is in the hands of semi-competent developer god knows how it was back in the 90s.

I've just finished it, to be honest I didn't really feel like the enemies were too much HP buckets by the end. They scale up over the course of the game, but so does your damage output. The toughest common enemies have 13HP, which sounds like a lot when you start at 3, but your plasma rifle does 6-9 so you're all but guaranteed to kill them in one turn if you have two guys to shoot, and does do enough on a critical to kill them instantly.

There are HP sink enemies, but they tend to show up in isolation or with accompaniment that's far weaker and there are trivial ways of dealing with them, Sectopods have 30HP, but a Heavy Plasma and HEAT ammo can do 20 damage to them in a shot. Muton Berserkers have 20HP but they love to stand in the open meaning you'll barely ever miss them


I never found that I was being exercised unduly by enemies with lots of health. In fact, the one tough encounter I described above was mostly tough because of the 8 regular mutons, enemies which I was trivially able to one shot, but had to actually respect because there were a lot of them. and I couldn't take them all down at once and fend off the berserkers and sectopod. That's something that didn't happen enough late game, encounters with lots of guys that could whittle my super tough titan suited bastards down. Because it's not enemy health scaling that's the problem, it's your health scaling, when you have guys with 18-23HP who aren't even hospitalised unless they take more than 10 in a firefight (and hardly anything does more than that with a single hit) and you have six of them fighting three guys at a time, even if one of them is a bullet sponge, really does not create difficulty, or even impede progress in any way, since I reckon I put paid to most encounters in one round of shooting, rarely two, because they were too small.

[Vendetta]

Also, the last mission is terrible.

For a start it's basically a long exposition dump, the first and only exposition about the aliens at all, where the boss ethereal tells you all about his little minions as they appear in turn, and for seconds it's basically a series of turkey shoots connected by doors where you have an elevated position and get to murder helpless aliens which stand even less of a chance than the usual monster closets because the game freely gives you every advantage you could possibly want.

[Zinegata]

The problem isn't that you can only respond to one thing at a time, the problem is that there is almost never more than one thing to react to, which makes the abductions, the only "choose one, screw the others" choice that actually exists, even more transparently artificial.

Really? Huh, I thought they would be giving more choices like these later on; apparently not :/

(Note: I'm just in my third month, and planning my first Alien Base attack)

The biggest problem on the strategic level though is that there's way too little alien activity and none of it is meaningful. Even with full worldwide detection you're unlikely to see even two UFOs a month, whereas in a game of UFOriginal you would get ten or so easy, and whilst the only ones that really had a tangible effect on shooting them down were terror ships (All the other Alien "missions" were either guaranteed to succeed no matter what you did, or had no ingame effect.) at least it gave you something to shoot for in the strategic phase.

To be fair, lategame in the original X-com also tended to become a tedious micro-managefest because of this especially if you're trying to shoot down every single one of the damn UFOs and salvage them. It sometimes got to the point that I would deliberately shoot down UFOs over the water so I don't have to recover them.

I don't mind not having a frenetic pace anymore, but if the abductions are really the only strat-level decision points then yeah the game gets a bit less interesting for replays.

[Covenant]

I think a lot of gamers feel that when you bring vehicle combat into things, you just lose a lot of the variation in weaponry and tactics that you see in an all-infantry game. I think that's nonsense, but I do understand how hard it can be to balance letting people have a Tank in a game where most of the combat is men v men. Also, tanks usually lack character the way that characters do.

I know in the one TBT game that let me use a tank, Valkyria Chronicles, I basically killed everything with the tank and had the other units around just for laughs. It was my tank and a bunch of engineers but I really felt like there was a massive strategy gap that came from the tank overmatching the men in just about every capacity. They made it rock paper scissors tank instead of tank paper scissors.

X-Com is one of the few games I could really see someone getting it right. The maps were kinda big before, especially the two-parters and the goddamned three-part cruise liner missions in TFTD. And it had precedent of terror units and heavy weapon platforms, which could be re imagined as a variety of vehicles. And even more than that, it had a lineage of destructible terrain. Tanks would fit right in. If not tanks then at least armored vehicles. And if alien small arms are able to blast through vehicles it could be obvious that armored vehicles are an expensive and vulnerable platform, making the tank paper scissors idea really not just a gimmick but a sensible combined arms approach.

Anyway, it could go on forever. This game isn't un-fun, but it is frustrating at how close it came without actually achieving the level of awesomeness it could have had if they paid as much attention to the really important stuff as they did to some less important things (cutscenes, the door/window breaching elements) and so on.

One thing I'd ask about is how people would want to see the to-hit math done differently. While I think one of the problems with the way the to-hit is done right now comes from the fact that you're actually TELLING the player what they're rolling, and thus it makes them too focused on jiggering their numbers up to 90%, I'm not sure what would be better on the back-end. CoH had obfuscated mechanics but it was still a to-hit percentage. Can someone clarify what they'd like better, so I can keep that in mind for if I do make an X-Com some day?

[Covenant]

The problem isn't that you can only respond to one thing at a time, the problem is that there is almost never more than one thing to react to, which makes the abductions, the only "choose one, screw the others" choice that actually exists, even more transparently artificial.

Really? Huh, I thought they would be giving more choices like these later on; apparently not :/

(Note: I'm just in my third month, and planning my first Alien Base attack)

I think that's the ONLY base attack, actually.

And you don't need to recover every UFO you downed in UFOD. After 3 days they disappear and count as downed with no additional bonus or penalty. I presume that after 3 days conventional military either smart-bomb the area or send in 40 or so marines to wipe the aliens out by sheer force.

[Zinegata]

I think that's the ONLY base attack, actually.

And you don't need to recover every UFO you downed in UFOD. After 3 days they disappear and count as downed with no additional bonus or penalty. I presume that after 3 days conventional military either smart-bomb the area or send in 40 or so marines to wipe the aliens out by sheer force.

Really? Only one base attack? Ow. Gotta capture the Commander then!

Also, I know you don't have to recover every UFO, but I'm sadly OC about these things and want to get them all .

[Stark]

The alien base is even one of the easiest forced storyline missions. It was much easier than random missions at a similar time.

[Zinegata]

The alien base is even one of the easiest forced storyline missions. It was much easier than random missions at a similar time.

Not if you take a peek and find yourself facing Mutons for the first time with essentially default starting gear (and learn that the bastards are carrying grenades. Half the team went up in smoke because of that). But maybe we ought to spoiler this in case others are looking.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Wel the demo was almost as unplayably choppy as Sword of the Stars II via steam...

[Covenant]

I'm doing much better now that I understand the Line of Sight functions and apparently no longer get dicked over by the RNG. My first few games had me missing constantly, now I feel pretty good and I can safely do most of the stuff the game throws at me via snipers and my horribly overpowered support. For the life of me I do not understand why floaters suck so bad compared to sectoids. Did the floaters really need a 15% accuracy debuff at the same time as I was getting Lieutenants on the field?

The lack of build time for things confuses me. One satellite takes 20 days. Three satellites take... 20 days. In the first month I bought 3 extra sats and have been placing them ever since. Started with Africa, of all places, and rolling in the dough.

[Zinegata]

The lack of build time for things confuses me. One satellite takes 20 days. Three satellites take... 20 days. In the first month I bought 3 extra sats and have been placing them ever since. Started with Africa, of all places, and rolling in the dough.

I'm of the general opinion that Africa is actually the best spot to start with. Money always helps, and everywhere else only gives you conditional discounts which you may not need immediately anyway.

The only early game thing that desperately needs a discount are satellites, but no continent gives you satellite bonuses.

[Vendetta]

I know in the one TBT game that let me use a tank, Valkyria Chronicles, I basically killed everything with the tank and had the other units around just for laughs. It was my tank and a bunch of engineers but I really felt like there was a massive strategy gap that came from the tank overmatching the men in just about every capacity. They made it rock paper scissors tank instead of tank paper scissors.

Ironically, that's actually a terrible way to win VC because the tank takes 2CP to activate and, certainly from mid game onwards, isn't all that much better at doing anything than other units that take 1 (Unless you need it to shoot smoke or act as mobile cover, most people leave it in the base generating CP). It took them until VC3 to realise that no-one ever used tanks because they were an expensive retard magnet most of the time, and we didn't get VC3 because why would we want the version that fixed almost all the problems with the first two? The way to get the highest rank on most missions is actually to only use Alicia most of the time, a scout, because she's so broken (and Zeri in VC2, because commandos became the new king of broken).

[Zinegata]

Ironically, that's actually a terrible way to win VC because the tank takes 2CP to activate and, certainly from mid game onwards, isn't all that much better at doing anything than other units that take 1 (Unless you need it to shoot smoke or act as mobile cover, most people leave it in the base generating CP). It took them until VC3 to realise that no-one ever used tanks because they were an expensive retard magnet most of the time, and we didn't get VC3 because why would we want the version that fixed almost all the problems with the first two? The way to get the highest rank on most missions is actually to only use Alicia most of the time, a scout, because she's so broken (and Zeri in VC2, because commandos became the new king of broken).

To be fair, Edelweiss can also be used for cover-busting multiple enemies thanks to mortar shells (the Shamrock was useless though); and it also served as ad-hoc cover by simply being furniture.

But yeah, given that everything is time-based the best way to win is to send in Alicia and let her cap the base on her own. Maybe throw in another scout or two to rifle grenade any enemies in cover.

How'd they fix it in VC3 BTW?

[Skgoa]

The alien base is even one of the easiest forced storyline missions. It was much easier than random missions at a similar time.

Not if you take a peek and find yourself facing Mutons for the first time with essentially default starting gear (and learn that the bastards are carrying grenades. Half the team went up in smoke because of that). But maybe we ought to spoiler this in case others are looking.

This. Three Mutons and three Cryssalids at the same time, spawning one dash length in front of my team at the very end of my round. It didn't end well.

[Stark]

You guys really need to clue up and get decent gear then, because the regular-size UFOs are way harder. 12 of anything at once means you lose thanks to good old n squared, and the game is pretty unreliable at remembering guys haven't activated yet if you load.

Man even talking about the amazingly stupid per-squad monster closets makes me laugh. Lapping the outside of the ship can even activate guys (god knows walls are unreliable) and trick them into running out into your headshot reaction fire cheese. What a satisfying tactical experience!

[AniThyng]

I found it amusing in light of the Scotland independence vote that there is both a "Scotland" and a "UK" (still with st. andrew's cross) nationality for soldiers. (but no "England")

[Vendetta]

How'd they fix it in VC3 BTW?

Tanks only take 1CP. Also any character can be moved to any class and, I think, also the potentials system was changed so you can guide the development of characters rather than just using the ones that come with the broken potentials.

It also went back to the war plot with your guys being a penal battalion, rather than stupid anime high school nonsense of VC2.

Sadly, never translated.

In VC2 you got APCs, which were also 1CP and therefore the only vehicle worth using, especially since you could still mount flamethrowers on them (which ignore cover) as well as all sorts of other gubbins and transport slow ass characters around.

[Tolya]

I found it amusing in light of the Scotland independence vote that there is both a "Scotland" and a "UK" (still with st. andrew's cross) nationality for soldiers. (but no "England")

Last time I studied devolution, I got the impression that even if bloody Scotland, all of Ireland and Wales broke off, people down south would still call their crippled state "United Kingdom".

[streetad]

Yeah the firing through walls thing gas started to annoy me now...

Also little things like 'Why do my multinational superteam all have American accents?'. Except when they say 'Australia'. They pronounce just that one word in an Australian accent. Its like they are all played by Sam Worthington or something....

And how come I can launch a satellite that can cover the entirety of Russia but if I park it over Germany I can't see what's going on in France?

And why are half my soldiers rabid members of the Scottish National Party who insist on wearing a Saltire instead of a Union Jack? The UK is right there and appears to have its current borders...

[streetad]

Double post

[AniThyng]

I found it amusing in light of the Scotland independence vote that there is both a "Scotland" and a "UK" (still with st. andrew's cross) nationality for soldiers. (but no "England")

Last time I studied devolution, I got the impression that even if bloody Scotland, all of Ireland and Wales broke off, people down south would still call their crippled state "United Kingdom".

I suppose the "United Kingdom of England [and only England]" would need to try to prevent an upstart Cornish rebellion.

Most of my soldier's are Aussies for some reason. And for some reason, and I didn't really do this on purpose, I swear, all my assault get close and personal berserkers come from Africa...

I also have a cold punkish russian woman for my top Psionic.

In any case, I like customizing them. Everyone with a nickname earns the right to run with different colours.

Leaving all its flaws aside, the game has more atmosphere and engagement with troops then most strat games bar JA.

Actually in terms of TBS inspiration, EU most reminds me of Shadow Watch - if anyone remembers that?

[streetad]

Don't get me wrong its still a fun game, just flawed. Sometimes the flaws can lead to hilarity like the time I rashly climbed my heavy weapons guy onto a roof only to find two chrysalids right up in my face (literally two squares away). They then used their free move to flee in terror as far away from my guy as possible, down some stairs and right in front of my other four guys who hadn't moved yet.

With regards to the Scottish thing I suppose if an independent Scotland elected to keep the monarchy there would still be a United Kingdom of sorts, i.e. Queen Elizabeth would still be queen of Scots and of England. Maybe that's what happened...