People with 30 gb Zunes

[Stargate Nerd]

Because Apple also sells music along with videos, and being able to offer a program that lets you both manage your files and buy new songs at the same time is more convenient than having a separate utility? It's also not that inconvenient to use "open file > add new folder" when you want to put more music on your player.

You don't need a separate utility. Simply have your device support USB mass storage and that's it.

[charlemagne]

Yeah, it's more convenient to drag a pile of stuff and tag manually and manage content instead of just plugging in a device and having it simply work. Turns out most people aren't OCD or computer buffs?! A program that simplifies using a media device - wow why would regular users want that? I think it's funny nerds still whine about this sort of thing.

But pre-existing music has to be tagged correctly or it won't be any use in iTunes either.

Also, I don't get what the difficulty in using your OS's file manager would be. Why would dragging files using explorer in Windows be "harder" than opening iTunes and adding media to it? Both require certain base proficiency in computer use.

[TempestSong]

Because Apple also sells music along with videos, and being able to offer a program that lets you both manage your files and buy new songs at the same time is more convenient than having a separate utility? It's also not that inconvenient to use "open file > add new folder" when you want to put more music on your player.

I can agree to that. However, if you don't use the iTunes store at all, then iTunes itself really isn't needed if you have MTP or USB mass storage.

Yeah, it's more convenient to drag a pile of stuff and tag manually and manage content instead of just plugging in a device and having it simply work. Turns out most people aren't OCD or computer buffs?! A program that simplifies using a media device - wow why would regular users want that? I think it's funny nerds still whine about this sort of thing.

Strawman, there are perfectly normal people out there who do not use iTunes, the Zune manager, etc. and prefer to work with the player directly. If one wanted to tag the mp3s, there are plenty of mp3 file managers out there; mp3tag is what I use personally. Listen to what I said before; if you don't have a use for the proprietary file managers, then they should give an option for the customer not to use it. By providing either one of the two aforementioned interfaces, then it takes off the need to install the programs, and gives the customer the option.

[Vendetta]

Strawman, there are perfectly normal people out there who do not use iTunes, the Zune manager, etc. and prefer to work with the player directly. .

A significant proportion of the computer using public doesn't even know you can drag and drop.

Nor would they know where their music files were in the first place.

[TempestSong]

A significant proportion of the computer using public doesn't even know you can drag and drop.

Nor would they know where their music files were in the first place.

Not to dispute you, but where do you get your data on that? I'd think even the lowest of jobs that required a computer would have something involving dragging/dropping, and/or locating/moving computer files (well, unless said jobs worked with one single UI that wasn't a Windows desktop). Even my computer-illiterate parents knew what dragging/dropping was, before I ever touched a Windows-enabled machine.

Edit: Now that I think about it, with the way iTunes locates your music files, I wouldn't doubt people would not know where they were. They're literally placed in a hidden folder within your My Music directory; had to do some research before I could back them up.

[Bounty]

Not to dispute you, but where do you get your data on that?

Real life? I've had to explain to people over the phone how you save files in Word. I don't doubt for a moment there's an assload of people out there who have an iPod, a computer, and no idea that the music they play is somehow related to 'files'.

[TempestSong]

Real life? I've had to explain to people over the phone how you save files in Word. I don't doubt for a moment there's an assload of people out there who have an iPod, a computer, and no idea that the music they play is somehow related to 'files'.

OK, conceeded. Had a few of those myself too, guess the university break's just been too long.

Still, it would be great to have an option to switch to standard file management. Caters to both the regular computer users and the higher-level ones who don't see the need for such programs.

[General Zod]

Strawman, there are perfectly normal people out there who do not use iTunes, the Zune manager, etc. and prefer to work with the player directly. If one wanted to tag the mp3s, there are plenty of mp3 file managers out there; mp3tag is what I use personally. Listen to what I said before; if you don't have a use for the proprietary file managers, then they should give an option for the customer not to use it. By providing either one of the two aforementioned interfaces, then it takes off the need to install the programs, and gives the customer the option.

So basically what it boils down to is because Apple doesn't cater to every single feature every non normal person could want then you don't think they're giving people enough options? Even though you could just buy a different mp3 player if it's really that big of a deal? (hint: it isn't).

[Beowulf]

I'm a techie. I use iTunes. Why? because I have better things to waste my time on than organizing my music.

[TempestSong]

So basically what it boils down to is because Apple doesn't cater to every single feature every non normal person could want then you don't think they're giving people enough options? Even though you could just buy a different mp3 player if it's really that big of a deal? (hint: it isn't).

Uhh...what kind of a slippery slope are you trying to make? How is me asking for non-iTunes access "every single feature every non normal person could want"? And yes, it is a big deal. Some of us do not like iTunes, believe it or not. It's why I use a Tilt and not an iPhone, and a Sansa instead of an iPod. It's not that hard to implement MTP or USB mass storage; they're both standards for crying out loud. Hell, the Sansa I have has both of them available through an option in the configuration.

iTunes has been guilty of some annoying things in the past for me, such as doing some strange directory rearrangement in my mother's music archive, and stealth-installing Safari as a "critical" update. Yeah, installing Apple's browser sure is necessary for the functioning of a music distribution and management program, right? And based on what I've heard in this thread, the Zune software seems equally as annoying.

Maybe you're willing to put up with this. I'm not. I have better things to do with my time than struggle with software that gets itself confused every now and then, and occasionally decides to go off on its own tangent.

I'm a techie. I use iTunes. Why? because I have better things to waste my time on than organizing my music.

To each their own. I use mp3tag to label my songs and Windows explorer to place them. What makes iTunes that much different in function? What makes navigating a list different from...navigating a list?

[General Zod]

Uhh...what kind of a slippery slope are you trying to make? How is me asking for non-iTunes access "every single feature every non normal person could want"? And yes, it is a big deal. Some of us do not like iTunes, believe it or not. It's why I use a Tilt and not an iPhone, and a Sansa instead of an iPod. It's not that hard to implement MTP or USB mass storage; they're both standards for crying out loud. Hell, the Sansa I have has both of them available through an option in the configuration.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue then. There's plenty of other players out there yet because Apple won't use drag and drop that somehow means they're limiting your options? And somehow limiting your options with regards to their specific player is automatically bad?

iTunes has been guilty of some annoying things in the past for me, such as doing some strange directory rearrangement in my mother's music archive, and stealth-installing Safari as a "critical" update. Yeah, installing Apple's browser sure is necessary for the functioning of a music distribution and management program, right? And based on what I've heard in this thread, the Zune software seems equally as annoying.

You realize that you aren't required to install Safari? It plainly asks you whether you want to or not, this is why you set the options to not automatically update everything; stealth installation my ass. As far as directory rearrangements, I somehow doubt this was Apple's fault.

Maybe you're willing to put up with this. I'm not. I have better things to do with my time than struggle with software that gets itself confused every now and then, and occasionally decides to go off on its own tangent.

Yet funnily enough, I've never noticed any of these bizarre confusions you're talking about. Despite having used iTunes for the better part of a year and a half now.

To each their own. I use mp3tag to label my songs and Windows explorer to place them. What makes iTunes that much different in function? What makes navigating a list different from...navigating a list?

You missed the part about iTunes serving as Apple's storefront and giving people a convenient place to buy music and videos for their player, didn't you? Creative does not offer this, the last I checked.

[TempestSong]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue then. There's plenty of other players out there yet because Apple won't use drag and drop that somehow means they're limiting your options? And somehow limiting your options with regards to their specific player is automatically bad?

...Are you even reading? I'm arguing that their forcing the use of the iTunes software is what turns me off against Apple. This is somewhat mitigated by Stargate Nerd mentioning Winamp and anther program being able to access the iPod, but my point still stands. Why not provide iTunes as a side program, keep the store in there, keep the music management, keep everything iTunes users like. Just provide an alternative access port via Windows explorer, and make iTunes optional!

You realize that you aren't required to install Safari? It plainly asks you whether you want to or not, this is why you set the options to not automatically update everything; stealth installation my ass. As far as directory rearrangements, I somehow doubt this was Apple's fault.

Well, tell me how else I disabled the automatic management feature in iTunes and it just suddenly changes things on my mother's computer? Double-checked twice, before and after the incident, and I doubt she switched it on herself. Could just be an isolated incident, but hey. And sure, it asks you about Safari...when you tell the updater to show what's being installed. "Normal" computer users, as you people like to point out, would never do this. Luckily, I caught it in time.

Yet funnily enough, I've never noticed any of these bizarre confusions you're talking about. Despite having used iTunes for the better part of a year and a half now.

Guess you've just been lucky. I've had nothing but hell.

You missed the part about iTunes serving as Apple's storefront and giving people a convenient place to buy music and videos for their player, didn't you? Creative does not offer this, the last I checked.

Once again, as you keep forgetting, I mention iTunes being included as a side-program for those who don't use the iTunes store. No, I didn't miss it; I thought it would be implied that if you needed the iTunes store, you would use iTunes. But did Beowulf mention anything about purchasing music through it? No, he was talking about music organization.

[General Zod]

...Are you even reading? I'm arguing that their forcing the use of the iTunes software is what turns me off against Apple. This is somewhat mitigated by Stargate Nerd mentioning Winamp and anther program being able to access the iPod, but my point still stands. Why not provide iTunes as a side program, keep the store in there, keep the music management, keep everything iTunes users like. Just provide an alternative access port via Windows explorer, and make iTunes optional!

Just maybe the demand isn't there for it?

Well, tell me how else I disabled the automatic management feature in iTunes and it just suddenly changes things on my mother's computer? Double-checked twice, before and after the incident, and I doubt she switched it on herself. Could just be an isolated incident, but hey. And sure, it asks you about Safari...when you tell the updater to show what's being installed. "Normal" computer users, as you people like to point out, would never do this. Luckily, I caught it in time.

I'd be more willing to believe your mother did something without realizing it than it switched on its own.

Once again, as you keep forgetting, I mention iTunes being included as a side-program for those who don't use the iTunes store. No, I didn't miss it; I thought it would be implied that if you needed the iTunes store, you would use iTunes. But did Beowulf mention anything about purchasing music through it? No, he was talking about music organization.

Because trying to keep your music and videos that you purchased organized through the store along with drag and dropped file items would be a logistical nightmare and confusing to remember? I can just imagine some poor schleb deleting one or more of his albums purchased from iTunes without realizing it because he mistook it for one he added via drag and drop. Easier to just organize them all through the same utility.

[Beowulf]

I'm a techie. I use iTunes. Why? because I have better things to waste my time on than organizing my music.

To each their own. I use mp3tag to label my songs and Windows explorer to place them. What makes iTunes that much different in function? What makes navigating a list different from...navigating a list?

Well, I don't have to manually organize my music collection. I just drag and drop the new files into iTunes. My CD ripper is perfectly capable of automatically tagging new CDs, so I don't have to worry about getting them properly tagged. I can create smart playlists that only have songs I've rated, say, 3 stars or better.

iPods require iTunes so that their database can be populated, so they can do stuff like: listen to stuff that's in the "Rock" genre, or listen to stuff that's by "Coheed and Cambria".

[General Zod]

Well, I don't have to manually organize my music collection. I just drag and drop the new files into iTunes. My CD ripper is perfectly capable of automatically tagging new CDs, so I don't have to worry about getting them properly tagged. I can create smart playlists that only have songs I've rated, say, 3 stars or better.

Even iTunes does a pretty good job of tagging CDs. I ripped an obscure Japanese CD with it and it managed to tag everything just fine. (Admittedly it was in moonspeak, but still).

[charlemagne]

iPods require iTunes so that their database can be populated, so they can do stuff like: listen to stuff that's in the "Rock" genre, or listen to stuff that's by "Coheed and Cambria".

You need a database to do stuff like that?

Really, the playlist "feature" of iTunes has to be the most annoying thing ever, especially compared to e.g. Winamp. No easy drag-and-drop on-the-fly playlist building, building playlists with iTunes is a chore as far as I remember it. Sure, features like the "intelligent" playlist sound nice at first, and there's propably people who can make good use of it, but seriously, I won't go ahead and rate each and every song of my 60GB+ music collection.

[TempestSong]

Just maybe the demand isn't there for it?

I suppose if you ratio normal users who couldn't live without iTunes to higher-level users who would rather use another program, then you would be right. However, outside the pure marketing comparison perspective, there is a demand for it.

I'd be more willing to believe your mother did something without realizing it than it switched on its own.

Perhaps you're correct, though I did ask her if the program prompted her to re-switch it back on again and she said no.

Because trying to keep your music and videos that you purchased organized through the store along with drag and dropped file items would be a logistical nightmare and confusing to remember? I can just imagine some poor schleb deleting one or more of his albums purchased from iTunes without realizing it because he mistook it for one he added via drag and drop. Easier to just organize them all through the same utility.

I was taught alot on organizational skills when I was younger, so my long-term memory can hold quite a bit of information as to where I locate what, thus I may be a bit one-sided here. For general use, I'll concede on that.

Well, I don't have to manually organize my music collection. I just drag and drop the new files into iTunes. My CD ripper is perfectly capable of automatically tagging new CDs, so I don't have to worry about getting them properly tagged. I can create smart playlists that only have songs I've rated, say, 3 stars or better.

iPods require iTunes so that their database can be populated, so they can do stuff like: listen to stuff that's in the "Rock" genre, or listen to stuff that's by "Coheed and Cambria".

That's all metadata (genre and author), which the mp3 player's firmware should be able to scan and build a database on its own. If the iPod requires iTunes for that...okay, in my opinion that's retarded programming, but I'll leave it at that. If you like the automation iTunes provides with regard to CDs, then I'm confident some other alternative exists on the Internet (it probably uses a database such as CDDB or freedb to get the information).

[General Zod]

I suppose if you ratio normal users who couldn't live without iTunes to higher-level users who would rather use another program, then you would be right. However, outside the pure marketing comparison perspective, there is a demand for it.

The marketing perspective is the only one that counts in this instance. If the demand is so insignificant that it doesn't make it profitable then why should Apple implement it? Especially when "casual users" are precisely who Apple caters to.

I was taught alot on organizational skills when I was younger, so my long-term memory can hold quite a bit of information as to where I locate what, thus I may be a bit one-sided here. For general use, I'll concede on that.

We're talking about average users here. I deal with several hundred gigabytes worth of files at home and the only reason I don't lose files more often is because I'm anal retentive about file structure organization. So I can only imagine that for someone who only occasionally uses a PC it's more confusing having multiple options on how to organize an mp3 player than having one consolidated utility.

That's all metadata (genre and author), which the mp3 player's firmware should be able to scan and build a database on its own. If the iPod requires iTunes for that...okay, in my opinion that's retarded programming, but I'll leave it at that. If you like the automation iTunes provides with regard to CDs, then I'm confident some other alternative exists on the Internet (it probably uses a database such as CDDB or freedb to get the information).

I don't doubt that an alternative exists, but if you're using it for an iPod then what's the point? The negative and dubious gripes are far outweighed by the benefits involved.

[charlemagne]

I don't doubt that an alternative exists, but if you're using it for an iPod then what's the point? The negative and dubious gripes are far outweighed by the benefits involved.

The iTunes love is getting a bit over the top now, isn't it? What's so negative or even "dubious" about using another ripper than iTunes? And what's the benefit in using only iTunes (besides from saving you a single "Add folder to library" click?)

I just checked with my girlfriend's notebook, she has an 80GB iPod classic and therefore iTunes is installed on her machine: so ok, you can choose VBR and quality when encoding to MP3. But standard setting is (of course) .AAC, which might give you headaches if you change players in the future.


Oh, on a side note: standard folder where iTunes for Windows will put all ripped and downloaded music is "My Music" in "My Documents". This can - and, with my girlfriend, has - lead to trouble with very long artist names/album titles. We all know about the max cases filenames can have, and on one or two occasions filenames plus the looooooong folder name pointing to "My Music" and the subfolders within broke that max number. iTunes will just act like the file's not there then, and good luck to your average user solving that problem without knowing about stuff like "My Music" in fact being buried deep somewhere in "C:\local users..."

[General Zod]

The iTunes love is getting a bit over the top now, isn't it? What's so negative or even "dubious" about using another ripper than iTunes? And what's the benefit in using only iTunes (besides from saving you a single "Add folder to library" click?)

I was referring to the gripes overall. Not just using another ripper.

I just checked with my girlfriend's notebook, she has an 80GB iPod classic and therefore iTunes is installed on her machine: so ok, you can choose VBR and quality when encoding to MP3. But standard setting is (of course) .AAC, which might give you headaches if you change players in the future.

So you change the codec you rip the music to. Big deal.

Oh, on a side note: standard folder where iTunes for Windows will put all ripped and downloaded music is "My Music" in "My Documents". This can - and, with my girlfriend, has - lead to trouble with very long artist names/album titles. We all know about the max cases filenames can have, and on one or two occasions filenames plus the looooooong folder name pointing to "My Music" and the subfolders within broke that max number. iTunes will just act like the file's not there then, and good luck to your average user solving that problem without knowing about stuff like "My Music" in fact being buried deep somewhere in "C:\local users..."

I'd imagine that anyone who isn't a total idiot and is capable of ripping a cd and setting the format they want is at least familiar enough with file navigation to understand the concept of renaming their folders when they rip the album in addition to changing the default output directory.

[JLTucker]

Really, the playlist "feature" of iTunes has to be the most annoying thing ever, especially compared to e.g. Winamp. No easy drag-and-drop on-the-fly playlist building, building playlists with iTunes is a chore as far as I remember it.

Are you fucking stupid? Creating a playlist in iTunes is easy as shit. File > New Playlist. Give it a name and drag and drop the songs onto the playlist. It's identical to how you do it with Winamp. You're wrong, fucktard.

[charlemagne]

Are you fucking stupid? Creating a playlist in iTunes is easy as shit. File > New Playlist. Give it a name and drag and drop the songs onto the playlist. It's identical to how you do it with Winamp. You're wrong, fucktard.

All right, I was wrong about "no drag and drop", but it's still more convenient in Winamp for my taste. It's not that big a deal, I know.

I concede that to some extent I'm pulling bad things to say about iTunes out of my ass, because I just don't like the program. I don't like working with it, I don't like to use it to organise things, I don't like the look and "feel" of it. I think that the 'cover flow' thingy looks cool and can be nice to play around with, but it never made me like or want to use the program. It's just a matter of taste I guess. I'll just stay out of this discussion from now on

[Beowulf]

I've got a computer with hundreds of MIPS of processing power and a terabyte of space. Why the fuck should I try to remember where everything is? The computer is better at that than I am.

As for your MP3 player automatically reading the ID3 tags and populating it's own internal database: that's retarded. It'd take forever, because both the processor is slow, and the disk is slow. There's a reason why the iPod is one of the few that allows you to play by genre.

[Stark]

Oh man, so much hilarious nerdnoise. I hear AAC might give you problems, even though it's better and smaller than MP3s and so ubiquitous even fucking 360s support it. Stay away from that h.264/mp4 stuff too, because shitty $20 devices from Singapore don't support it! Stay with xvid. Even better, stay with MPEG2.

I love that after all the noise gets demolished, they just come back with 'wah I don't like it'. So, why the dishonestly? I have an extremely strong technical background, and once upon a time back in the 90s I managed media the hard/manual way. Then they invented 'media jukebox' software, which grew into our current 'media library' stuff. All it takes is the ability to learn and it makes managing media easier; but it turns out learning and change is too hard for most people. The fact that it does everything my mum needs it to do without confusing her with 'files' and 'paths' is of course irrelevant. Not liking something is a perfectly good reason not to use it; it's a terrible reason to lie about a bunch of shit you don't know fuck-all about to try to talk someone out of using it. After all, I hear iTunes can't help you tag your music? LOL!

Anyone who shits on something 'cool' to hate like iTunes, spits out a bunch of easily countered nonsense arguments, has obviously barely even used it and then runs away while saying 'wah I just don't like it' is a dishonest coward. Is it really that hard to learn new ways of doing things? The idea that it's easier to use one app to buy media and another to deliver it to the device than have an integrated store is so utterly retarded that I honestly can't think of anything to say.

[TempestSong]

Oh man, so much hilarious nerdnoise. I hear AAC might give you problems, even though it's better and smaller than MP3s and so ubiquitous even fucking 360s support it. Stay away from that h.264/mp4 stuff too, because shitty $20 devices from Singapore don't support it! Stay with xvid. Even better, stay with MPEG2.

I hear you're throwing out a red herring, too. It's starting to really stink up the thread. Please put it back in the scum-infested pond it came from.

I love that after all the noise gets demolished, they just come back with 'wah I don't like it'. So, why the dishonestly? I have an extremely strong technical background, and once upon a time back in the 90s I managed media the hard/manual way. Then they invented 'media jukebox' software, which grew into our current 'media library' stuff. All it takes is the ability to learn and it makes managing media easier; but it turns out learning and change is too hard for most people. The fact that it does everything my mum needs it to do without confusing her with 'files' and 'paths' is of course irrelevant. Not liking something is a perfectly good reason not to use it; it's a terrible reason to lie about a bunch of shit you don't know fuck-all about to try to talk someone out of using it. After all, I hear iTunes can't help you tag your music? LOL!

When did I ever say this? I even stated that iTunes has its uses for people who needed it. When did I ever argue that media libraries are superbly inferior to file management? I use a damn media library myself, you know, mp3tag. What I said was dragging/dropping could be about as convenient as managing the iTunes database due to it being similar to how regular Windows file operations work. To which I was told that wasn't necessarily true, and which I already conceded.

Great way of misrepresenting and twisting my words. Read the fucking topic before you try and comment on what I say, moron.

Anyone who shits on something 'cool' to hate like iTunes, spits out a bunch of easily countered nonsense arguments, has obviously barely even used it and then runs away while saying 'wah I just don't like it' is a dishonest coward. Is it really that hard to learn new ways of doing things? The idea that it's easier to use one app to buy media and another to deliver it to the device than have an integrated store is so utterly retarded that I honestly can't think of anything to say.

I've had experience with iTunes before. I didn't like it. However, I did admit it had its uses for some people, and thus should still be included...but I stated it would be best-used as a side program. Instead of it being absolutely fucking required to use the device. You know, I'm not going to repeat myself. Go and read what I posted real carefully before you make another idiotic and uninformed comment.

I've got a computer with hundreds of MIPS of processing power and a terabyte of space. Why the fuck should I try to remember where everything is? The computer is better at that than I am.

As for your MP3 player automatically reading the ID3 tags and populating it's own internal database: that's retarded. It'd take forever, because both the processor is slow, and the disk is slow. There's a reason why the iPod is one of the few that allows you to play by genre.

I don't know, I thought putting soundtracks in appropriate genre/band/album directories would be good enough. Not to mention the labeling, which you know, mp3 players use for their databases instead of reading the raw directory structure, and any tagging program could handle perfectly. But hey, like I said, to each their own. If you like iTunes, so be it, use it all you want. And my old Zen did a nice job at a good speed in its recordkeeping. I know this because when said Zen once hit the ground and shut itself off, it had to re-index its contents, and that took way under a half-minute. What's more, this only happened once! This slowness you speak of, what is it?

And the iPod being...one of few that allows you to play by genre? What's your definition of few? Microsoft's Zune, Creative's Zen, Sandisk's Sansa, and basically the majority of first-world mp3 players out there do that. It's as simple as reading the fucking tags. You know, you can't throw stones at other people if you haven't even looked at recent technology from, oh, the last 3 years.