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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

Wrong again, asshole.
Yes, you are. :lol:
The general threat of terrorism is in no way, shape, or form even remotely the same as a situation where nationals of one nation are facing immediate danger from a rapidly escalating situation of violence and chaos just broken out in the country where those nationals are located.
Ah, but when the Revolutionary Guards and Jerusalem Force enter the equation, we are no longer talking about “the general threat of terrorism,” but rather specific support for the al-Qaeda organization, which we already know is dedicated to endangering both American nationals and American national security.
No Iranian military attacks upon U.S. forces or personnel. No Iranian attack upon U.S. soil. No Iranian attempts to block off the Straits of Hormuz. No such actions even remotely definiable as an act of war.
No Afghan military attacks upon U.S. forces or personnel. No Afghan attack upon U.S. soil. No Afghan attempts to block off a strategic location. Except that they financed and aided a terrorist organization that was the avowed enemy of the United States of America. And now, elements that Iran cannot – or, worse, will not – police are doing the same.
As intelligence ruses have never constituted grounds for war, you have no argument to begin with.
As you have already proven yourself, precedent is not a requirement in justifying an action.
Not even the CIA are attempting to make the case you're overheating your little brain over.
Conscious support for terrorism in general does not constitute a specific “special favor” to al-Qaeda, moron. As we have already learned, the Iranians had only a vague notion of who, exactly, the “jihadists” were. Hence, the CIA is saying no such thing, you dishonest son-of-a-bitch.
Again, quite simple-minded. No matter Iran's intent or action, nothing negated the U.S. government's responsibiity to actually verify the accuracy of the information coming from Chalabi's INC. It is those who failed to follow through who "harmed the national security integrity of this country", numbskull. Physical consequences followed from that failure and not from any Iranian disinformation —none of which in any case even attempted to characterise Iraq as posing an immediate threat requiring immediate military action, which doesn't support your "Iran tried to lead us to war" drivel.
But the outcome of Iran’s intelligence efforts has no bearing on their original intent, you blithering idiot. If an assassin misses a shot, he remains guilty of conspiracy and attempted murder.
VERY relevant, as disinformation cannot in and of itself result in either death or destruction.
And yet people are convicted in the United States and elsewhere on a regular basis of being responsible for the death and destruction that did result, or might have resulted, from false information that they provided.
TOTALLY correct. And you latest attempted parallel with domestic criminal law is as laughable as the others. Totally different scale of action in a wholly different paradigm to start with. Foreign-sourced intelligence is never supposed to be accepted on face-value, and as a rule is always withheld for verification before being passed along to policymakers. Just no end to your sophistries, is there?
Information provided to the police is never supposed to be accepted at face-value either, moron. Not to mention that failures in intelligence-processing are issues for another debate, and have nothing to do with the original intent – or implications of the intent – of the party that provided that data in the first place.
All counterintelligence, by definition, is aimed against another government.
All counter-intelligence initiatives must be aimed at government, but government is not a target solely of counter-intelligence activities, retard.
You have still failed to negate the responsibility of the U.S. government to actually verify its sources of information before attempting to make a case for war through the argument of Iran's alleged villany.
Because it means nothing in the context of our argument, you dishonest little dipshit.
Neither have you demonstrated a valid example of any war ever resulting from one nation's disinformation against another.
We’ve already dealt with this problem. As you’ve already admitted, precedent is unnecessary in order to take action. Now kindly stop spinning sophistries in that regard.
General sponsorship of terrorism has not and is not considered grounds in and of itself for a military attack not only by the precepts of international law, but by the operational practise of U.S., Israeli, and most other nations' foreign policies. The practical considerations are that military power is not a limitless resource, and political and diplomatic power is undermined by disproportionate employment of military force in situations where it would not only be inappropriate but counterproductive. Terrorism does not and cannot threaten the existence of any state, nor its general material wellbeing. This is why sponsorship of terrorism brings diplomatic and economic sanctions against a state but not military action, which is restricted to retaliation to specific actions, or in rare extreme cases limited preemption of a specific threat, such as Israel's attack on the Tammuz nuclear reactor complex in 1981, where Israeli intelligence had information that it was going to be a key componnent of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons development programme.[/quote

For the last time, precedent is absolutely unnecessary, and the word of any state that engages in obvious support for terrorist organizations must not be considered reliable at face value. Hence Iran’s protestations regarding a “civilian” nuclear program must be viewed with complete skepticism.

As for the practical limitations of military and political power, the United States has already stirred up the hornet’s nest, so to speak. Not only would an air offensive on our part by virtually certain to crush Iran’s defensive reaction, but Iran could not become any more hostile either overtly or covertly, considering prevailing circumstances in that country right now. Hence your “practical considerations” are of no lasting concern in this situation.
As Dick Cheney rejected any argument doubting the certainty of either the Atta-in-Prague story or the mobile bioweapon lab trucks story or the UAV chemical-delivery drones, all of which were products of the Office of Special Plans which employed Chalabi's INC as its source, the evidence stands and not all your moving of the goalposts will erase it.
You will now kindly provide factual evidence that the Office of Special Plans relied only on Chalabi’s INC in analyzing intelligence.
How utterly PATHETIC —you actually imagine that a vague and general one-line definition supports you?! First, you did first employ the specific term "army" and not the more generalised term "military", which refers to the combined armed forces. Now you try to reverse the sense and say that "military" and "army" are equally interchangeable in terms of your first statement. Nevermind that it ignores the fact that a political force such as the SS or the Iranian Revolutionary Guards are not part of the national army and certainly does not answer to the military chain-of-command but its own political authority.
www.Dictionary.com supports my definition of the term, asswipe. Ha ha ha.
On the contrary, dolt, it demonstrates that the case is uncertain as to the extent of official sanction for Al-Qaeda support, on whether the passport overlook policy was intended to aid Al-Qaeda or was aimed at accomodating Saudi nationals in general. Exactly what part of this:
The MSNBC article has already made clear that the consciously intended benefactors were “jihadists.”
Even though US President George W. Bush included Iran in the “axis of evil,” Iranian and US diplomats have held periodic exchanges since the September 11 terrorism tragedy. The meetings reflect the reality that the United States needs Iran's assistance as the Bush administration wages its war on terrorism. At the same time, the exchanges are unlikely to result in the normalization of US-Iranian relations.

Shortly before the United States opened its campaign to oust Iraq dictator Saddam Hussein, senior US officials found themselves in a déjà vu moment: meeting in secret once again with Iranian leaders as the US military prepared to strike one of Tehran’s neighbors. In 2002 , the meeting concerned Afghanistan, this year the subject was Iraq.

According to published reports, White House special envoy to the Iraqi opposition Zalmay Khalilzad asked Iranian officials in Geneva to pledge Tehran’s assistance for any American pilots downed in Iranian territory. Khalilzad also sought assurances that Iran’s armed forces would not join the fighting at any time. According to Iranian sources familiar with the meeting, Tehran agreed to both, but asked for a promise of its own: that the United States would not set its sights on Iran after the US army toppled Saddam Hussein’s regime. American officials reportedly equivocated, though Britain has quietly reassured Iran that the Bush administration has no intention of exerting military pressure against Tehran.

Tehran and Washington share a few common enemies in the war on terrorism. They include: the Taliban (Shi'a Iran regularly quarreled with the Sunni extremists on their border); Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein (Iran fought a brutal eight year war with Iraq after Saddam invaded Iran in1980 ); and even al Qaeda (Iran has called them "a menace" and Osama bin Laden's Sunni extremism turned off virtually all political factions in Iran, even if his politics attracted Iran's hard-liners).

Iran has staked out a position of "active neutrality" in the Iraq conflict, quietly cooperating with the United States where possible, seeking to secure its own legitimate interests in a post-Saddam Iraq, and loudly protesting what some Iranian officials have described as a US desire to control Iraqi oil resources. This double game – quiet assistance coupled with public denunciations – is partly a reflection of Tehran’s fear that it will become Washington’s next target. Another factor is Iran’s perceived need to actively safeguard its own interests against US ambitions to remake the Middle East’s geopolitical landscape. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
Considering Iran’s inability and unwillingness to challenge the Jerusalem Force, these “discussions” – which say nothing about al-Qaeda prisoners in Iranian hands, mind you – mean jack and crap. In light of the movement of Iranian agents to counteract American initiatives in Iraq, and the attempt to bring America to war on Iran’s part, its motives must be looked at not in the spirit of neutrality or goodwill, but in the spirit of manipulation and hostility.

As for “equivocation,” people lie, Deegan. You do it all the time.
US-Iran talks: Iran and the US are holding back channel talks on Afghanistan, Iraq and the Al Qaeda terror network, a leading Iranian parliamentary official said Wednesday. The parliament’s National Security and Foreign Affairs Committee member Elaheh Koulaie said Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi informed the panel on Tuesday of the agenda, the state news agency IRNA reported.
No statement regarding prisoners.
For now, the Bush administration appears to be staking out a dramatically more patient approach than its allies advocate, opting to explore with European countries the possibility of bringing the issue of Iran's nuclear program to the United Nations in the coming months. The idea would be to address the issue through a more general discussion of the fight against nuclear proliferation, sources said.

The administration's goal would be to have the Security Council call for a tighter enforcement of the rules governing the Non-Proliferation Treaty, without specifically referring to Tehran's ambitions. A U.S. official said the administration was considering this option, adding that discussions were still at an early stage.
And this means what, in the context of my argument? Just because the administration takes a particular tack doesn’t mean it’s correct in all things. That’s one of your favorite attacks, I might add.
Tensions between Iran and the European Union continue to escalate over the issue of whether Tehran's nuclear program is designed to make weapons. The U.S. is demanding that a deadline be set for U.N. weapons inspections in the country, and fears are increasing of another conflict in the Middle East.

Yet all is not aggressive confrontation between Iran and the West. Behind the scenes, cultural and scholarly exchanges are taking place. These, rather than direct diplomatic interventions, often produce political effects that cannot be achieved by any other means.

In a signal instance of cultural diplomacy, the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago has returned a set of 300 ancient clay tablets to Iran in what amounts to the first U.S.-led repatriation of archaeological objects to the country since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
Your point? We had an open relationship with Germany prior to our entrance into the Second World War. “Cultural and scholarly” exchanges have apparently meant nothing to Iran, who continues provocative activity regardless.
But Bush administration officials insist that the Iranian link to Al Qaeda was never clear. They also point to a change of attitude by Tehran since 9/11. Iranian officials claim they have "expelled or repatriated" large numbers of bin Laden followers, and last Saturday the country's intelligence chief, Ali Yunesi, announced new arrests. Yet other Qaeda suspects—like bin Laden's son Saad and Saif Al-Adel, once Al Qaeda's security chief, along with eight others—are believed to still be in Iran, possibly under some kind of protective custody to be used as leverage in future U.S.-Iran talks.
Did you actually read this? :lol:
South Korea 1950, Lebanon 1982, Kuwait 1991. Physical enforcement of international law. You have no argument.
Grenada 1982, Iraq 2003. Physical enforcement of American standards. You have no argument.
Grenanda's invasion came at the request of the island's British Governor-General and the U.S. stayed only as long as required to evacuate the students and secure peace on the island. There was no loss of sovereignty no matter how much you try to twist reality to fit your sophistries.
The Cubans certainly didn’t stay.
Only in that delusional mind of yours, fuckface. No Americans on the ground in Iran, no revolutionary chaos endangering Americans on the ground in Iran, and the clear operational history that sponsorship of terrorism is not grounds for military attack. No parallel to Grenada exists. You have no argument.
Are you fucking kidding me? Iran has not moved against the Revolutionary Guards. We thus have grounds for believing it is supporting them in full.

As for this “revolutionary chaos” bullshit, if we subscribe to your argument, there is indeed chaos characterizing the relationship between Iran and large elements of its military forces, a result of which is support for al-Qaeda against AMERICAN targets. You lose.

As for precedent, I could repeat myself, but why?
In your little fantasy world, that is...
In reality, moron. Iraq is experiencing it right now.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with your patently obvious Strawman.
You deny that you’ve attempted to raise Pakistan as the guiding example in terms of what you believe must be done in Iran?
Not only have I not been "to absolve Iran from supporting terrorists" (an OUTRIGHT FUCKING LIE), this:
You certainly have. Arguing that their “general” support for terrorism is no danger, and that their inability to control a swatch of their military (which is known to support al-Qaeda) means nothing to the United States’ national security. Pathetic.
suggests you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
“Protective custody” equals support, moron. :lol:
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

PART TWO: LIES, DAMN LIES, AXI'S BULLSHIT
Axis Kast wrote:We don’t punish Pakistan because we can’t risk the potential that a reactionary group will obtain nuclear weapons, moron. The same conditions don’t obtain in Iran. If the strategic situation is different, so too is the solution. Your repeated insistence that we must shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to Pakistan in order to be in the “right” when we challenge Iran for its own crimes border on the insane.
No, asshole, we don't "punish" Pakistan because we're presently using them as a base for operations against Afganistan and because its corrupt military government are among our few Muslim clients; notwithstanding their backing of the Taliban through the 90s and the pardon handed out to Dr. Khan after being caught red-handed selling nuclear secrets to the North Koreans, but by all means keep pretending that the Iranians are the worse force for regional instability. It also doesn't occur to you that while we have armies in the field —one of which is in a landlocked country— the strategic situation would not be served by starting hostilities with a third Muslim country, nevermind that such an action is also likely to push North Korea further toward obtaining its own nuclear arsenal to deter us from attacking them.
A pathetic attempt at cleverness. The existence of the one condition does not automatically imply the other; i.e. the independent operation of the Jersuaslem Force in sponsoring terrorism = full complicity of the Tehran government. The issue is whether or not said government is facing the danger of mutiny from its military forces, for which no evidence exists.
No, that’s not the issue at all, asshat. The issue is whether Iran cannot control the Jerusalem Force – which it evidently can’t and isn’t trying to do, as your complete inability to prove otherwise shows.
That is exactly the issue, fuckface. You have utterly failed to demonstrate that Iran's government is facing a military coup or that it cannot exercise positive command-and-control over its forces. The pullback of Revolutionary Guard units which crossed the Iraq border several months ago on orders from Tehran demonstrates that the government and the Supreme Religious Council are still in full control.
As a sovereign nation, Iran is responsible to control its territories. If, as you claim, it can do so, but is not, then it is demonstrably supporting terrorists. But, of course, you attempt to strawman the situation in your classic, dishonest way.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
The correct equation is thus:

IF Iran can control affairs within its territories, THEN nothing significant would occur without Iran’s (A) reaction or (B) retaliation.
You mean like Pakistan.
HENCE, IF significant support for terrorism exists within one of the arms of the Iranian government, THEN it must be either tolerated or supported.
Like Pakistan, eh?
This from the basis of your argument, which is that Iran is in complete control.
More so than Pakistan, which issued a blanket pardon to somebody who sold nuclear secrets to an unfriendly nation, which has elements of its intelligence service —the ISI— supporting Al-Qaeda, and whose government is teetering on the brink of overthrow if it attempts a crackdown against Wahabbist elements.
Iran’s support for terrorists includes facilitation of groups we know are actively hostile to the United States. At best, they can’t control al-Qaeda within their country. At worst, they refuse. No matter what, they are a clear threat to our national security and well-being.
The arrests of Al-Qaeda operatives in Iran suggests otherwise.
And, as an aside, precedent is not a prerequisite for the legitimacy of any action, since new situations are arising all the time as the world develops politically and militarily. What was once the norm will change.
Funny, Napoleon, Hitler, and Saddam all thought the same thing. Guess what...?
Can they destroy the United States? Destroy American armies in the field? Drive us from the Middle East? Can they impose their will on us? They endanger Americans, certainly, and represent an ongoing security threat on that level. They do not imperil either the existence of the United States, nor its ability to project its power in the region, nor the continued supply of Middle East oil. As I’ve stated —threats are only as good as the ability to actually carry them out, and no terrorist threat is ever going to represent a source of national peril; either from the organisations or from sponsoring governments. The Soviet Union was a danger to the United States; a danger no terrorist threat is ever going to match in scale.
By this definition, we should respond to no attacks whatsoever, since even were anybody to launch a military strike (unless nuclear), the United States would neither be destroyed or dictated to. This is the stupidest basis for preparing national security behavior I have ever been witness to, and is certainly criminally incompetent.
Nice little Strawman. As I've not argued against retaliatory measures in proportionate response to terrorist attacks, you again have no argument whatsoever. You're not even trying to put up a pretense at honest debate at this point.
LIE: The Asia Times article dismissed the alleged existence of Saddam's Jerusalem Force and speaks to the doubts of European intelligence services as to the effectiveness of the Iranian JF's activities. That issue is not even the focus of the piece.
On the basis of those Europeans’ experience with Saddam’s Jerusalem Force, idiot. Unless, of course, the European dismissals were without evidence whatsoever, and the commentary on Saddam’s Force was mere filler, in which case the article would be unfounded entirely and thus useless.
And your evidence for this is... Oh yeah —pulled out of your own ass as usual.
The Iranians don’t need to provide specific special favors to Bin Laden in order to aid and abet his movements in the broader scope of their active disinterest, idiot. Your argument is stupid.
Nowhere near as stupid as this pathetic excuse of a rebuttal.
Afganistan's responsibility for September 11th included open cooperation with Al Qaeda as it planned and executed the attack, and its subsequent refusal to turn over the Al Qaeda leadership for justice. They were openly complicit in an act of such scale that no diplomatic recourse was left open. Iran by contrast has had no involvement in either the WTC attacks nor in any action of even a fraction of the scale of the WTC strike. Deny that as much as you like, but those are the facts of the matter.
Iran also knowingly facilitated the movement of terrorists over its borders, sponsors terrorism worldwide, and has failed to so much as attempt to bring rogue elements of its own military to heel. These are clear threats to American security, and, as such, may be legitimately preempted. Deny that as much as you like, but those are the facts of the matter.
Pakistan knowingly supported the Taliban and turned a blind-eye to Al-Qaeda throughout the 90s as sanctuary camps were established along the border in tribal enclaves —which they still haven't rooted out. They cannot control rogue elements of the ISI, and they cannot even crackdown on a man who sold nuclear secrets to a foreign nation for fear of touching off radical Islamist revolutionary currents. But by all means continue pretending that Iran is worse.
You'll pardon me for laughing, I trust. If you're trying to reach for Afganistan as your "precedent", you're definitely grasping at straws. Afganistan was a special case by any definition and does not defeat the argument defining what an act of war actually is. And if you actually imagine that a parallel can be drawn between the Taliban's complicity for 9-11 and a disinformation campaign as something other than an "overt military act" rising to the level of an act of war as your "precedent", you are even more deranged than I figured.
Then Afghanistan is also proof that a new precedent can be set in what is evidently an ongoing process of historical development. Hence, your argument that we must have prior, similar situations in mind in order to act in the present or future falls flat on its face. Too bad.
For you, actually —exceptions do not destroy rules.
Which has exactly jack and shit to do with whether or not they were complicit in 9-11 or have committed acts requiring military retaiation as a response. Precedent shows that the sponsorship of terrorism in and of itself is not considered sufficent cause for retaliation by military means.
And precedent can change, dolt.
Not overnight, moron. And not by singular exceptions either.
Not to mention that if the Jerusalem Force is going unchallenged, a clear danger to Americans has arisen in the form of Iran’s complicity in an arm of its military’s support for al-Qaeda. Direct threat.
Direct bullshit. The Jerusalem Force is involved primarily with Hizbollah and HAMAS, which primarily make their war against Israel. The last terrorist act agaginst Americans with clear Iranian connections was the Beirut suicide bombing of 1983. Iranian/Al-Qaeda involvement in the Khobar Towers bombing is suspected, but there is no clear-cut evidence to prove the case. And as Al-Qaeda operatives are being arrested in Iran as a security threat to the state, the issue as to whether there is still a relationship is uncertain.
The Reagan Administration protested but did nothing over the fact of the Cubans building an airstrip on Grenada. That was not the promptor of our intervention but the military coup against the Hudson Austin government and the subsequent condition of immediate threat to American medical students on the island. No such condition obtains with Iran, and no attempt to build a nebulous threat into an imminent threat will make it so —especially as no terrorist organisation supported by Iran has a reach outside of the Middle East.
We have national security interests in the Middle East, idiot. And you will, of course, realize that if Iran has done nothing to curb the Jerusalem Force – which you have been unable, apparently, to deny -, then it is guilty of complicity with al-Qaeda (which does have a global reach, incidentally) in the first place.
We have regional security interests in the Middle East. And all your sophistries do not make a worse case in regards to the Jerusalem Force than towards Pakistan's ISI and elements of its own military cooperating with terrorists. And from what we've seen, Al-Qaeda's reach has diminished considerably since 9-11.
And everybody is well aware that it was the possibility of the creation of a Cuban puppet state that spurned an action in Grenada that went well beyond rescuing those at St. George’s, was it?
In that case, why no American invasion of Nicauragua, which the Cubans were also heavily involved in supporting of its communist government? Possibly due to the fact that Americans were not under threat of imminent danger there. Same as in Angola.
By that argument, we must immediately attack Saudi Arabia, since the kingdom has had a larger hand in funding Al Qaeda than Iran ever has. The issue is whether or not Iran was complicit in 9-11 or any action of comparable scale to justify a military attack. They demonstrably are not so complicit, and as there is not even a clear-cut case on the extent of official sanction for Al Qaeda from the Iranians, there is certainly no clear-cut case for military retaliation.
There is certainly grounds for action against the Jerusalem Force, and, because Iran has evidently not so much as tried to stop them, against Tehran as well.
Only in that addled mind of yours. Wars are not started over support for terrorism.
And we have already been over the fact that our responses to Saudi Arabia do not apply as ruling guidelines to dealings with Iran, and vice-versa, for obvious reasons.
Yes we've been treated to your double-standard for at least two threads now.
And the Clinton White House received a PDB titled "Bin Laden Determined To Strike In U.S." when, exactly? Furthermore, as the Clinton White House successfully averted Al Qaeda's Millenium bomb-plot in 2000, their record on paying attention to terrorist threats outdoes that of the Bush White House in no uncertain terms. Ask Richard Clarke.
Bin Laden struck in Africa, moron. He was hitting American targets. From this, his intelligence officials should have extrapolated that it was only a matter of time before the U.S. was struck.
And America hit back at Bin Laden in Africa as well as Afganistan, asshole. And intelligence officials not only extrapolated but picked up clear warning signs that the U.S. was about to be struck. The Bush White House ignored the problem for eight months.
And, if I remember correctly, the Millennium bomb plot was barely stopped. The success of our efforts was contingent on circumstance, not a general recognition of the threat in the first place.
The difference is that the Millenium plot was stopped because people were alert and followed through on the "lucky break" swiftly —which did not happen with the pre-9-11 arrest of Zaccaris Moussaui in 2001.
The 9/11 Commission states unequivocally that there was nobody out there predicting the kind of strike that actually occurred. No matter what administration they belonged to.
See Ch. 8: "The System Was Blinking Red". And you can stop trying to recycle Condi Rice's catch-all excuse for why this administration failed to follow up on the opportunities they did have to interfere with the 9-11 plot —even if they "couldn't predict" a plan involving flying hijacked planes into buildings. That is the lamest excuse to come out of the mouth of anybody from this White House.
We’re talking about HOMELAND Security now. And this is certainly not “Begging the Question,” since one determines the effectiveness of Homeland Security by assessing the danger to the Homeland. Not to mention that the 9/11 Commission reported that we are, in fact, safer now than we were on 9/11.
Then why is Tom Ridge putting us on Orange Alert every three months if we are supposedly "safer"?
And about that masturbation thing? Dude, I wouldn't fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap...
For you to accuse anybody else of shifting goalposts is the height of comedy. Doubly so now that you've resorted to outright lying about my arguments. I'm sorry it doesn't suit you that in the real world that state sponsorship of terrorism has not been and is not considered sufficent grounds in and of themselves for war. Recognising that fact is not "forgiving them" asshole —that is reality.
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Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
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Axis Kast
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Post by Axis Kast »

No, asshole, we don't "punish" Pakistan because we're presently using them as a base for operations against Afganistan and because its corrupt military government are among our few Muslim clients; notwithstanding their backing of the Taliban through the 90s and the pardon handed out to Dr. Khan after being caught red-handed selling nuclear secrets to the North Koreans, but by all means keep pretending that the Iranians are the worse force for regional instability.
Strawman. Which state is the worse force for regional instability is immaterial. Pakistan is beyond military retribution.
It also doesn't occur to you that while we have armies in the field —one of which is in a landlocked country— the strategic situation would not be served by starting hostilities with a third Muslim country, nevermind that such an action is also likely to push North Korea further toward obtaining its own nuclear arsenal to deter us from attacking them.
First, any attack on Iran would be effected by naval and air assets already in place. Second, the duration of any air campaign is unlikely to be longer than one week in length.

And, finally, that bit about North Korea is a Red Herring. North Korea is already in possession of nuclear weapons, and will continue to pursue them regardless of what America does or does not do. Kim Jong-Il is not a rational man; his fears are, in large part, figments of his own imagination.
That is exactly the issue, fuckface. You have utterly failed to demonstrate that Iran's government is facing a military coup or that it cannot exercise positive command-and-control over its forces.
If Iran can exercise positive command-and-control over its forces but has not yet brought the Jerusalem Force to heel, then we must consider Iran’s central government an active, overt sponsor of al-Qaeda. Your logic.
You mean like Pakistan.
This and all other references to Pakistan have no bearing on our debate. How Washington chooses to approach the problems posed by Pakistan’s unique situation does not dictate our course of action in Iran.
More so than Pakistan, which issued a blanket pardon to somebody who sold nuclear secrets to an unfriendly nation, which has elements of its intelligence service —the ISI— supporting Al-Qaeda, and whose government is teetering on the brink of overthrow if it attempts a crackdown against Wahabbist elements.
If the ISI can be considered a sponsor of al-Qaeda, so too can the Jerusalem Force. But, if, as you claim, Iran is fully in control, then the only remaining logical conclusion is that Tehran is actively in support of the al-Qaeda organization. You are ruining your own defense, Deegan.
The arrests of Al-Qaeda operatives in Iran suggests otherwise.
You mean the minimal police actions designed to deflect American ire, coupled with the very public unwillingness of Tehran to challenge its own Jerusalem Force? Or the al-Qaeda members put in protective custody? :lol:
Nowhere near as stupid as this pathetic excuse of a rebuttal.
Concession accepted. General support for “jihadists” does not represent a specific “special favor” to al-Qaeda.
Pakistan knowingly supported the Taliban and turned a blind-eye to Al-Qaeda throughout the 90s as sanctuary camps were established along the border in tribal enclaves —which they still haven't rooted out. They cannot control rogue elements of the ISI, and they cannot even crackdown on a man who sold nuclear secrets to a foreign nation for fear of touching off radical Islamist revolutionary currents. But by all means continue pretending that Iran is worse.
Strawman. It is not a matter of which is the worse culprit, but which is most susceptible to action.
For you, actually —exceptions do not destroy rules.
Then consider Iran another “special” exception. :lol: You’ve already established that Tehran is a conscious sponsor of al-Qaeda. Anything else to add to bolster my arguments? You’re getting quite good at it.
Not overnight, moron. And not by singular exceptions either.
Then explain September 11th and Afghanistan, you blithering idiot.
Direct bullshit. The Jerusalem Force is involved primarily with Hizbollah and HAMAS, which primarily make their war against Israel. The last terrorist act agaginst Americans with clear Iranian connections was the Beirut suicide bombing of 1983. Iranian/Al-Qaeda involvement in the Khobar Towers bombing is suspected, but there is no clear-cut evidence to prove the case. And as Al-Qaeda operatives are being arrested in Iran as a security threat to the state, the issue as to whether there is still a relationship is uncertain.
Your own ASIA TIMES article cites connections to al-Qaeda. And those arrests you speak of are minimal drops in the ocean – especially what with word of “protective custody” and other arrangements.
In that case, why no American invasion of Nicauragua, which the Cubans were also heavily involved in supporting of its communist government? Possibly due to the fact that Americans were not under threat of imminent danger there. Same as in Angola.
Acts of Congress ring a bell? :lol: We did try to react by sponsoring military resistance in Nicaragua. The result was IRAN-CONTRA. And the South Africans did our dirty work for us when it came to Angola. Ford was told to “back off” by Congress anyway.
Only in that addled mind of yours. Wars are not started over support for terrorism.
Tell that to Afghanistan. And Libya. And Lebannon. :lol:
Yes we've been treated to your double-standard for at least two threads now.
Except the situations are not even remotely the same, so no double standard is in effect. Nice try though.
And America hit back at Bin Laden in Africa as well as Afganistan, asshole. And intelligence officials not only extrapolated but picked up clear warning signs that the U.S. was about to be struck. The Bush White House ignored the problem for eight months.
Americans hit back ineffectually. Clinton later justified it all by arguing that it was the public actually at fault – that partisan politics would have prevented him from ordering effective action without suffering major scrutiny and criticism. But that’s the President’s whole fucking job. Running in the face of controversy comes with the big, white house, idiot. George W. Bush is not solely responsible for September 11th – as your baby, the 9/11 Commission recently stated.
The difference is that the Millenium plot was stopped because people were alert and followed through on the "lucky break" swiftly —which did not happen with the pre-9-11 arrest of Zaccaris Moussaui in 2001.
No. Because one person got a lucky break. But that by no means absolves the Clinton administration of anything. A lucky break is just that – happenstance. And that means that our intelligence agencies were “broken” long before the Republican administration arrived in office.
See Ch. 8: "The System Was Blinking Red". And you can stop trying to recycle Condi Rice's catch-all excuse for why this administration failed to follow up on the opportunities they did have to interfere with the 9-11 plot —even if they "couldn't predict" a plan involving flying hijacked planes into buildings. That is the lamest excuse to come out of the mouth of anybody from this White House.
It was on the front page of Newsday earlier this week, idiot. The 9/11 Commission admitted that nobody could have seen the terrorist strikes coming because nobody was making those kinds of scenarios in the first place. This isn’t only coming out of the White House.
Then why is Tom Ridge putting us on Orange Alert every three months if we are supposedly "safer"?
I’ll take the words of an established political fact-finding committee over your Red Herrings about how proper security actually represents worse danger than before any day of the week.
For you to accuse anybody else of shifting goalposts is the height of comedy. Doubly so now that you've resorted to outright lying about my arguments. I'm sorry it doesn't suit you that in the real world that state sponsorship of terrorism has not been and is not considered sufficent grounds in and of themselves for war. Recognising that fact is not "forgiving them" asshole —that is reality.
Afghanistan was certainly taken to the bank on the basis of its sponsorship and complicity in terrorism, moron. But wait – I forgot. They ride the special bus according to you, don’t they? That makes September 11th a blip on the map, and beyond your vaunted “precedent.” Give me a fucking break. Running around claiming that we must for some reason draw parallels to the past in everything we do isn’t just stupid, it’s impossible. Nice try, though. You get a gold star for effort, dipshit.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Axis Kast wrote:
The general threat of terrorism is in no way, shape, or form even remotely the same as a situation where nationals of one nation are facing immediate danger from a rapidly escalating situation of violence and chaos just broken out in the country where those nationals are located.
Ah, but when the Revolutionary Guards and Jerusalem Force enter the equation, we are no longer talking about “the general threat of terrorism,” but rather specific support for the al-Qaeda organization, which we already know is dedicated to endangering both American nationals and American national security.
Which is supposed to support your tedious non-arguments how, exactly? Invoking the Al-Qaeda bogeyman doesn't blur the distinction between a general threat and an imminent threat.
No Iranian military attacks upon U.S. forces or personnel. No Iranian attack upon U.S. soil. No Iranian attempts to block off the Straits of Hormuz. No such actions even remotely definiable as an act of war.
No Afghan military attacks upon U.S. forces or personnel. No Afghan attack upon U.S. soil. No Afghan attempts to block off a strategic location. Except that they financed and aided a terrorist organization that was the avowed enemy of the United States of America. And now, elements that Iran cannot – or, worse, will not – police are doing the same.
Still trying to use an exception to destroy a general rule. The difference is where the question of official sanction enters the picture. The 9-11 Commission report states clearly that there is no indication of Iranian sanction or even knowledge of the WTC strikes. It states that the degree of sanction for support of Al-Qaeda's activities is uncertain. And there is no record of any Iranian complicity or sanction for any terrorist action remotely approaching the scale of the WTC strike. And as for this:

Except that they financed and aided a terrorist organization that was the avowed enemy of the United States of America.

—so did elements of Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, and its military:
excerpt:

3. Despite this, the US has, from time to time, been expressing its concerns over what it perceives as the lack of satisfactory co-operation from Iran. There were mainly three irritants. The first was the presence in the Iranian territory of Gulbuddin Heckmatyar of the Hizbe Islami (HI) and his associates after they were defeated by the Taliban in Afghanistan. In view of the Pakistan Government's pre-9/11 support to the Taliban, Gulbuddin and his associates apprehended threats to their lives if they took sanctuary in Pakistani territory. They, therefore, crossed over into Iran.

4. Tehran welcomed them in the apparent hope of using them against the Taliban. At the same time, it ensured that they did not indulge in any anti-US activities from its territory. After 9/11, under US pressure, it expelled them from its territory. This has proved counter-productive to the US. They have been welcomed by the Jamaat-e-Islami (JEI) of Pakistan and sympathetic serving and retired officers of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), who have given them sanctuary in Pakistan's tribal belt. The HI remnants have joined hands with the Taliban and Al Qaeda and have been indulging in hit and run raids on US and Afghan troops in Afghan territory.

And:

9. If this has happened, the Iranian Government can by no stretch of imagination be blamed for it. Despite strong evidence that the Pakistani religious parties and serving and retired officers of the ISI have been helping the Taliban and Al Qaeda elements who have been operating from the Pakistani territory, the US Government has refrained from blaming the Musharraf Government for their activities. Instead, it prefers to project their presence and activities in Pakistani territory as due to circumstances beyond the control of the Musharraf regime.
And:

Linky
Pakistan’s support to Taliban helped Qaeda

* September 11 Commission says no sign of Iraq aid for Al Qaeda in anti-US attacks

WASHINGTON: An official report the September 11, 2001 attacks said on Wednesday that Pakistan helped the Taliban regime in Afghanistan provide a haven to Al Qaeda in the face of international pressure.

The report from the official investigation into the attacks by Al Qaeda on New York and Washington said that Pakistan broke with the Taliban only after September 11, even though it knew the Afghan militia was hiding Osama Bin Laden.

“The Taliban’s ability to provide Bin Laden a haven in the face of international pressure and UN sanctions was significantly facilitated by Pakistani support,” the report said. “Pakistan benefited from the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, as Bin Laden’s camps trained and equipped fighters for Pakistan’s ongoing struggle with India over Kashmir.”


However the report said that there was no “credible evidence” that Iraq helped Al Qaeda in any attacks against the United States.

The preliminary report, issued as the official inquiry held two days of public hearings into the September 11 plot, appeared to contradict US administration claims of links between Al Qaeda and ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

The report said Bin Laden “explored possible cooperation with Iraq” while he was based in Sudan in the early 1990s, even though he opposed the secular regime of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, who was ousted by a US-led coalition last year. “A senior Iraqi intelligence official reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Laden in 1994,” the report said. It added that Bin Laden requested space to establish training camps and help in securing weapons. “Two senior Bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties exist between Al Qaeda and Iraq,” said the report. “We have no credible evidence that Iraq and Al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States.” “The intelligence community expects that the trend toward attacks intended to cause ever-higher casualties will continue,” the report said. agencies
Furthermore, as the Taliban employed Al-Qaeda as fighters against the insurgency of the Northern Alliance, it can be said to an extent that Osama binLaden's organisation were acting in the capacity of the Taliban's security forces.
Conscious support for terrorism in general does not constitute a specific “special favor” to al-Qaeda, moron. As we have already learned, the Iranians had only a vague notion of who, exactly, the “jihadists” were. Hence, the CIA is saying no such thing, you dishonest son-of-a-bitch.
They are saying exactly that, lying fuckwad. I grow tired of your endless twisting of every point in this discussion. To reiterate:

Link
MSNBC wrote:excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.

From the report on the 9-11 Commission's findings. You have no argument.
Again, quite simple-minded. No matter Iran's intent or action, nothing negated the U.S. government's responsibiity to actually verify the accuracy of the information coming from Chalabi's INC. It is those who failed to follow through who "harmed the national security integrity of this country", numbskull. Physical consequences followed from that failure and not from any Iranian disinformation —none of which in any case even attempted to characterise Iraq as posing an immediate threat requiring immediate military action, which doesn't support your "Iran tried to lead us to war" drivel.
But the outcome of Iran’s intelligence efforts has no bearing on their original intent, you blithering idiot. If an assassin misses a shot, he remains guilty of conspiracy and attempted murder.
False Analogy Fallacy yet again. And yet another dodge of the central question.
VERY relevant, as disinformation cannot in and of itself result in either death or destruction.
And yet people are convicted in the United States and elsewhere on a regular basis of being responsible for the death and destruction that did result, or might have resulted, from false information that they provided.
Which has absolutely jack and shit to do with any counterintelligence situation between nations.
TOTALLY correct. And you latest attempted parallel with domestic criminal law is as laughable as the others. Totally different scale of action in a wholly different paradigm to start with. Foreign-sourced intelligence is never supposed to be accepted on face-value, and as a rule is always withheld for verification before being passed along to policymakers. Just no end to your sophistries, is there?
Information provided to the police is never supposed to be accepted at face-value either, moron. Not to mention that failures in intelligence-processing are issues for another debate, and have nothing to do with the original intent – or implications of the intent – of the party that provided that data in the first place.
False Analogy Fallacy YET AGAIN.
All counter-intelligence initiatives must be aimed at government, but government is not a target solely of counter-intelligence activities, retard.
HUH? What the fuck point is THIS supposed to make?!
You have still failed to negate the responsibility of the U.S. government to actually verify its sources of information before attempting to make a case for war through the argument of Iran's alleged villany.
Because it means nothing in the context of our argument
Denial does not a rebuttal make.
you dishonest little dipshit.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Neither have you demonstrated a valid example of any war ever resulting from one nation's disinformation against another.
We’ve already dealt with this problem. As you’ve already admitted, precedent is unnecessary in order to take action.
I've admitted no such thing, fucker.
Now kindly stop spinning sophistries in that regard.
Try taking your own advice.
General sponsorship of terrorism has not and is not considered grounds in and of itself for a military attack not only by the precepts of international law, but by the operational practise of U.S., Israeli, and most other nations' foreign policies. The practical considerations are that military power is not a limitless resource, and political and diplomatic power is undermined by disproportionate employment of military force in situations where it would not only be inappropriate but counterproductive. Terrorism does not and cannot threaten the existence of any state, nor its general material wellbeing. This is why sponsorship of terrorism brings diplomatic and economic sanctions against a state but not military action, which is restricted to retaliation to specific actions, or in rare extreme cases limited preemption of a specific threat, such as Israel's attack on the Tammuz nuclear reactor complex in 1981, where Israeli intelligence had information that it was going to be a key componnent of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons development programme.
For the last time, precedent is absolutely unnecessary, and the word of any state that engages in obvious support for terrorist organizations must not be considered reliable at face value. Hence Iran’s protestations regarding a “civilian” nuclear program must be viewed with complete skepticism.
Nobody is saying Iran's word should be taken at face-value. However, no evidence that they are aiming at a clandestine nuclear weapons' effort has been uncovered. Furthermore, Iran's programme is proceeding under both Russian and IAEA supervision:
The Record.com wrote:Russia to Keep Helping Iran Build Nuclear Plant

Daily News Bulletin; Moscow - English 06/28/2004


MOSCOW. June 27 (Interfax) - Russia will continue to provide assistance to Iran in an effort to build the first generating unit for the future nuclear power plant in Bushehr but will simultaneously monitor Iran's relations with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Russian nuclear industry chief said on Sunday. Any country that has signed the Treaty on the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons has the right to international assistance in developing its nuclear power industry, Alexander Rumyantsev, head of the Federal Atomic Energy Agency, told a briefing.

MOSCOW. June 27 (Interfax) - Russia will continue to provide assistance to Iran in an effort to build the first generating unit for the future nuclear power plant in Bushehr but will simultaneously monitor Iran's relations with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the Russian nuclear industry chief said on Sunday.

Any country that has signed the Treaty on the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons has the right to international assistance in developing its nuclear power industry, Alexander Rumyantsev, head of the Federal Atomic Energy Agency, told a briefing.

"We are closely following the developments in Iran and that country's desire to cooperate with the IAEA," he said.

He noted a recent IAEA resolution saying that Iran is cooperating with the agency.

IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei told the briefing that the IAEA had been carrying out strict inspections in Iran to make sure that the country's nuclear program is civilian.

The IAEA's Iranian inspections are based on the agency's guarantees and an additional IAEA-Iranian protocol.

ElBaradei said that Iran had reaffirmed its loyalty to the protocol two days earlier.

He said Iran's commitment to stop enriching uranium remained in force and that the IAEA was closely monitoring Tehran's compliance with it.

Iran does, however, manufacture components for uranium enrichment centrifuges but the country has never pledged to stop doing this, according to ElBaradei.

ElBaradei said the IAEA was holding talks with Iran in a bid to persuade Tehran to stop making and testing centrifuge components.

He also said terrorists were more interested in the chemical and pharmaceutical industries than in the nuclear industry.

During the briefing, he repeatedly called for putting nuclear materials and technology under tighter security and for developing new security technology.


©The Record 2004
Explain that, then.
As for the practical limitations of military and political power, the United States has already stirred up the hornet’s nest, so to speak. Not only would an air offensive on our part by virtually certain to crush Iran’s defensive reaction, but Iran could not become any more hostile either overtly or covertly, considering prevailing circumstances in that country right now. Hence your “practical considerations” are of no lasting concern in this situation.
The bulk of Iran's population are presently apathetic about the Islamic Revolution and have no particular love for the mullahs. That will change in an instant if there is an American attack; they won't love the mullahs but they will rally around their own flag, and any impulse for reform will be set back a decade at least. Which is also a consideration even in this White House:

Linky
excerpt:

Bush did identify Iran, along with Iraq and North Korea, as part of the "axis of evil" in his January 2002 State of the Union speech. Iran had also long been identified by the State Department as a state sponsor of terrorism because of its close relationship with Hizbullah, a Shiite Muslim terror group with a major presence in Lebanon. But the president chose not to threaten military action against the Iranian regime, like he did with Iraq, in part because of a concern about possibly alienating "democratic forces’ within the country who might be in a position to modify Iranian behavior, according to Clarke.
You will now kindly provide factual evidence that the Office of Special Plans relied only on Chalabi’s INC in analyzing intelligence.
Gladly:

Linky
July 25, 2004 | home

SELECTIVE INTELLIGENCE
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH

Donald Rumsfeld has his own special sources. Are they reliable?
Issue of 2003-05-12
Posted 2003-05-05

They call themselves, self-mockingly, the Cabal—a small cluster of policy advisers and analysts now based in the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans. In the past year, according to former and present Bush Administration officials, their operation, which was conceived by Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, has brought about a crucial change of direction in the American intelligence community. These advisers and analysts, who began their work in the days after September 11, 2001, have produced a skein of intelligence reviews that have helped to shape public opinion and American policy toward Iraq. They relied on data gathered by other intelligence agencies and also on information provided by the Iraqi National Congress, or I.N.C., the exile group headed by Ahmad Chalabi. By last fall, the operation rivalled both the C.I.A. and the Pentagon’s own Defense Intelligence Agency, the D.I.A., as President Bush’s main source of intelligence regarding Iraq’s possible possession of weapons of mass destruction and connection with Al Qaeda. As of last week, no such weapons had been found. And although many people, within the Administration and outside it, profess confidence that something will turn up, the integrity of much of that intelligence is now in question.

The director of the Special Plans operation is Abram Shulsky, a scholarly expert in the works of the political philosopher Leo Strauss. Shulsky has been quietly working on intelligence and foreign-policy issues for three decades; he was on the staff of the Senate Intelligence Com-mittee in the early nineteen-eighties and served in the Pentagon under Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Perle during the Reagan Administration, after which he joined the Rand Corporation. The Office of Special Plans is overseen by Under-Secretary of Defense William Luti, a retired Navy captain. Luti was an early advocate of military action against Iraq, and, as the Administration moved toward war and policymaking power shifted toward the civilians in the Pentagon, he took on increasingly important responsibilities.

W. Patrick Lang, the former chief of Middle East intelligence at the D.I.A., said, “The Pentagon has banded together to dominate the government’s foreign policy, and they’ve pulled it off. They’re running Chalabi. The D.I.A. has been intimidated and beaten to a pulp. And there’s no guts at all in the C.I.A.”

The hostility goes both ways. A Pentagon official who works for Luti told me, “I did a job when the intelligence community wasn’t doing theirs. We recognized the fact that they hadn’t done the analysis. We were providing information to Wolfowitz that he hadn’t seen before. The intelligence community is still looking for a mission like they had in the Cold War, when they spoon-fed the policymakers.”

A Pentagon adviser who has worked with Special Plans dismissed any criticism of the operation as little more than bureaucratic whining. “Shulsky and Luti won the policy debate,” the adviser said. “They beat ’em—they cleaned up against State and the C.I.A. There’s no mystery why they won—because they were more effective in making their argument. Luti is smarter than the opposition. Wolfowitz is smarter. They out-argued them. It was a fair fight. They persuaded the President of the need to make a new security policy. Those who lose are so good at trying to undercut those who won.” He added, “I’d love to be the historian who writes the story of how this small group of eight or nine people made the case and won.”

According to the Pentagon adviser, Special Plans was created in order to find evidence of what Wolfowitz and his boss, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, believed to be true—that Saddam Hussein had close ties to Al Qaeda, and that Iraq had an enormous arsenal of chemical, biological, and possibly even nuclear weapons that threatened the region and, potentially, the United States.

Iraq’s possible possession of weapons of mass destruction had been a matter of concern to the international community since before the first Gulf War. Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons in the past. At some point, he assembled thousands of chemical warheads, along with biological weapons, and made a serious attempt to build a nuclear-weapons program. What has been in dispute is how much of that capacity, if any, survived the 1991 war and the years of United Nations inspections, no-fly zones, and sanctions that followed. In addition, since September 11th there have been recurring questions about Iraq’s ties to terrorists. A February poll showed that seventy-two per cent of Americans believed it was likely that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11th attacks, although no definitive evidence of such a connection has been presented.

Rumsfeld and his colleagues believed that the C.I.A. was unable to perceive the reality of the situation in Iraq. “The agency was out to disprove linkage between Iraq and terrorism,” the Pentagon adviser told me. “That’s what drove them. If you’ve ever worked with intelligence data, you can see the ingrained views at C.I.A. that color the way it sees data.” The goal of Special Plans, he said, was “to put the data under the microscope to reveal what the intelligence community can’t see. Shulsky’s carrying the heaviest part.”

Even before September 11th, Richard Perle, who was then the chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, was making a similar argument about the intelligence community’s knowledge of Iraq’s weapons. At a Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee hearing in March, 2001, he said, “Does Saddam now have weapons of mass destruction? Sure he does. We know he has chemical weapons. We know he has biological weapons. . . . How far he’s gone on the nuclear-weapons side I don’t think we really know. My guess is it’s further than we think. It’s always further than we think, because we limit ourselves, as we think about this, to what we’re able to prove and demonstrate. . . . And, unless you believe that we have uncovered everything, you have to assume there is more than we’re able to report.”

Last October, an article in the Times reported that Rumsfeld had ordered up an intelligence operation “to search for information on Iraq’s hostile intentions or links to terrorists” that might have been overlooked by the C.I.A. When Rumsfeld was asked about the story at a Pentagon briefing, he was initially vague. “I’m told that after September 11th a small group, I think two to start with, and maybe four now . . . were asked to begin poring over this mountain of information that we were receiving on intelligence-type things.” He went on to say, “You don’t know what you don’t know. So in comes the daily briefer”—from the C.I.A.—“and she walks through the daily brief. And I ask questions. ‘Gee, what about this?’ or ‘What about that? Has somebody thought of this?’” At the same briefing, Rumsfeld said that he had already been informed that there was “solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of Al Qaeda members.”

If Special Plans was going to search for new intelligence on Iraq, the most obvious source was defectors with firsthand knowledge. The office inevitably turned to Ahmad Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress. The I.N.C., an umbrella organization for diverse groups opposed to Saddam, is constantly seeking out Iraqi defectors. The Special Plans Office developed a close working relationship with the I.N.C., and this strengthened its position in disputes with the C.I.A. and gave the Pentagon’s pro-war leadership added leverage in its constant disputes with the State Department. Special Plans also became a conduit for intelligence reports from the I.N.C. to officials in the White House.

There was a close personal bond, too, between Chalabi and Wolfowitz and Perle, dating back many years. Their relationship deepened after the Bush Administration took office, and Chalabi’s ties extended to others in the Administration, including Rumsfeld; Douglas Feith, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Policy; and I. Lewis Libby, Vice-President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. For years, Chalabi has had the support of prominent members of the American Enterprise Institute and other conservatives. Chalabi had some Democratic supporters, too, including James Woolsey, the former head of the C.I.A.


There was another level to Chalabi’s relationship with the United States: in the mid-nineteen-nineties, the C.I.A. was secretly funnelling millions of dollars annually to the I.N.C. Those payments ended around 1996, a former C.I.A. Middle East station chief told me, essentially because the agency had doubts about Chalabi’s integrity. (In 1992, Chalabi was convicted in absentia of bank fraud in Jordan. He has always denied any wrongdoing.) “You had to treat them with suspicion,” another former Middle East station chief said of Chalabi’s people. “The I.N.C. has a track record of manipulating information because it has an agenda. It’s a political unit—not an intelligence agency.”

In August, 1995, General Hussein Kamel, who was in charge of Iraq’s weapons program, defected to Jordan, with his brother, Colonel Saddam Kamel. They brought with them crates of documents containing detailed information about Iraqi efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction—much of which was unknown to the U.N. inspection teams that had been on the job since 1991—and were interviewed at length by the U.N. inspectors. In 1996, Saddam Hussein lured the brothers back with a promise of forgiveness, and then had them killed. The Kamels’ information became a major element in the Bush Administration’s campaign to convince the public of the failure of the U.N. inspections.

Last October, in a speech in Cincinnati, the President cited the Kamel defections as the moment when Saddam’s regime “was forced to admit that it had produced more than thirty thousand liters of anthrax and other deadly biological agents. . . . This is a massive stockpile of biological weapons that has never been accounted for, and is capable of killing millions.” A couple of weeks earlier, Vice-President Cheney had declared that Hussein Kamel’s story “should serve as a reminder to all that we often learned more as the result of defections than we learned from the inspection regime itself.”

The full record of Hussein Kamel’s interview with the inspectors reveals, however, that he also said that Iraq’s stockpile of chemical and biological warheads, which were manufactured before the 1991 Gulf War, had been destroyed, in many cases in response to ongoing inspections. The interview, on August 22, 1995,was conducted by Rolf Ekeus, then the executive chairman of the U.N. inspection teams, and two of his senior associates—Nikita Smidovich and Maurizio Zifferaro. “You have an important role in Iraq,” Kamel said, according to the record, which was assembled from notes taken by Smidovich. “You should not underestimate yourself. You are very effective in Iraq.” When Smidovich noted that the U.N. teams had not found “any traces of destruction,” Kamel responded, “Yes, it was done before you came in.” He also said that Iraq had destroyed its arsenal of warheads. “We gave instructions not to produce chemical weapons,” Kamel explained later in the debriefing. “I don’t remember resumption of chemical-weapons production before the Gulf War. Maybe it was only minimal production and filling. . . . All chemical weapons were destroyed. I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons—biological, chemical, missile, nuclear—were destroyed.”

Kamel also cast doubt on the testimony of Dr. Khidhir Hamza, an Iraqi nuclear scientist who defected in 1994. Hamza settled in the United States with the help of the I.N.C. and has been a highly vocal witness concerning Iraq’s alleged nuclear ambitions. Kamel told the U.N. interviewers, however, that Hamza was “a professional liar.” He went on, “He worked with us, but he was useless and always looking for promotions. He consulted with me but could not deliver anything. . . . He was even interrogated by a team before he left and was allowed to go.”

After his defection, Hamza became a senior fellow at the Institute for Science and International Security, a Washington disarmament group, whose president, David Albright, was a former U.N. weapons inspector. In 1998, Albright told me, he and Hamza sent publishers a proposal for a book tentatively entitled “Fizzle: Iraq and the Atomic Bomb,” which described how Iraq had failed in its quest for a nuclear device. There were no takers, Albright said, and Hamza eventually “started exaggerating his experiences in Iraq.” The two men broke off contact. In 2000, Hamza published “Saddam’s Bombmaker,” a vivid account claiming that by 1991, when the Gulf War began, Iraq was far closer than had been known to the production of a nuclear weapon. Jeff Stein, a Washington journalist who collaborated on the book, told me that Hamza’s account was “absolutely on the level, allowing for the fact that any memoir puts the author at the center of events, and therefore there is some exaggeration.” James Woolsey, the former head of the C.I.A., said of Hamza, “I think highly of him and I have no reason to disbelieve the claims that he’s made.” Hamza could not be reached for comment. On April 26th, according to the Times, he returned to Iraq as a member of a group of exiles designated by the Pentagon to help rebuild the country’s infrastructure. He is to be responsible for atomic energy.

The advantages and disadvantages of relying on defectors has been a perennial source of dispute within the American intelligence community—as Shulsky himself noted in a 1991 textbook on intelligence that he co-authored. Despite their importance, he wrote, “it is difficult to be certain that they are genuine. . . . The conflicting information provided by several major Soviet defectors to the United States . . . has never been completely sorted out; it bedeviled U.S. intelligence for a quarter of a century.” Defectors can provide unique insight into a repressive system. But such volunteer sources, as Shulsky writes, “may be greedy; they may also be somewhat unbalanced people who wish to bring some excitement into their lives; they may desire to avenge what they see as ill treatment by their government; or they may be subject to blackmail.” There is a strong incentive to tell interviewers what they want to hear.

With the Pentagon’s support, Chalabi’s group worked to put defectors with compelling stories in touch with reporters in the United States and Europe. The resulting articles had dramatic accounts of advances in weapons of mass destruction or told of ties to terrorist groups. In some cases, these stories were disputed in analyses by the C.I.A. Misstatements and inconsistencies in I.N.C. defector accounts were also discovered after the final series of U.N. weapons inspections, which ended a few days before the American assault. Dr. Glen Rangwala, a lecturer in political science at Cambridge University, compiled and examined the information that had been made public and concluded that the U.N. inspections had failed to find evidence to support the defectors’ claims.

For example, many newspapers published extensive interviews with Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, a civil engineer who, with the I.N.C.’s help, fled Iraq in 2001, and subsequently claimed that he had visited twenty hidden facilities that he believed were built for the production of biological and chemical weapons. One, he said, was underneath a hospital in Baghdad. Haideri was apparently a source for Secretary of State Colin Powell’s claim, in his presentation to the United Nations Security Council on February 5th, that the United States had “firsthand descriptions” of mobile factories capable of producing vast quantities of biological weapons. The U.N. teams that returned to Iraq last winter were unable to verify any of al-Haideri’s claims. In a statement to the Security Council in March, on the eve of war, Hans Blix, the U.N.’s chief weapons inspector, noted that his teams had physically examined the hospital and other sites with the help of ground-penetrating radar equipment. “No underground facilities for chemical or biological production or storage were found so far,” he said.


Almost immediately after September 11th, the I.N.C. began to publicize the stories of defectors who claimed that they had information connecting Iraq to the attacks. In an interview on October 14, 2001, conducted jointly by the Times and “Frontline,” the public-television program, Sabah Khodada, an Iraqi Army captain, said that the September 11th operation “was conducted by people who were trained by Saddam,” and that Iraq had a program to instruct terrorists in the art of hijacking. Another defector, who was identified only as a retired lieutenant general in the Iraqi intelligence service, said that in 2000 he witnessed Arab students being given lessons in hijacking on a Boeing 707 parked at an Iraqi training camp near the town of Salman Pak, south of Baghdad.

In separate interviews with me, however, a former C.I.A. station chief and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for counter-terrorism training. In the mid-eighties, Islamic terrorists were routinely hijacking aircraft. In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by pro-Iranian extremists and crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered, killing at least sixty-five people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at war, and America favored Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the West, and got what it wanted from Britain’s MI6. The C.I.A. offered similar training in counter-terrorism throughout the Middle East. “We were helping our allies everywhere we had a liaison,” the former station chief told me. Inspectors recalled seeing the body of an airplane—which appeared to be used for counter-terrorism training—when they visited a biological-weapons facility near Salman Pak in 1991, ten years before September 11th. It is, of course, possible for such a camp to be converted from one purpose to another. The former C.I.A. official noted, however, that terrorists would not practice on airplanes in the open. “That’s Hollywood rinky-dink stuff,” the former agent said. “They train in basements. You don’t need a real airplane to practice hijacking. The 9/11 terrorists went to gyms. But to take one back you have to practice on the real thing.”

Salman Pak was overrun by American troops on April 6th. Apparently, neither the camp nor the former biological facility has yielded evidence to substantiate the claims made before the war.

A former Bush Administration intelligence official recalled a case in which Chalabi’s group, working with the Pentagon, produced a defector from Iraq who was interviewed overseas by an agent from the D.I.A. The agent relied on an interpreter supplied by Chalabi’s people. Last summer, the D.I.A. report, which was classified, was leaked. In a detailed account, the London Times described how the defector had trained with Al Qaeda terrorists in the late nineteen-nineties at secret camps in Iraq, how the Iraqis received instructions in the use of chemical and biological weapons, and how the defector was given a new identity and relocated. A month later, however, a team of C.I.A. agents went to interview the man with their own interpreter. “He says, ‘No, that’s not what I said,’” the former intelligence official told me. “He said, ‘I worked at a fedayeen camp; it wasn’t Al Qaeda.’ He never saw any chemical or biological training.” Afterward, the former official said, “the C.I.A. sent out a piece of paper saying that this information was incorrect. They put it in writing.” But the C.I.A. rebuttal, like the original report, was classified. “I remember wondering whether this one would leak and correct the earlier, invalid leak. Of course, it didn’t.”

The former intelligence official went on, “One of the reasons I left was my sense that they were using the intelligence from the C.I.A. and other agencies only when it fit their agenda. They didn’t like the intelligence they were getting, and so they brought in people to write the stuff. They were so crazed and so far out and so difficult to reason with—to the point of being bizarre. Dogmatic, as if they were on a mission from God.” He added, “If it doesn’t fit their theory, they don’t want to accept it.”

Shulsky’s work has deep theoretical underpinnings. In his academic and think-tank writings, Shulsky, the son of a newspaperman—his father, Sam, wrote a nationally syndicated business column—has long been a critic of the American intelligence community. During the Cold War, his area of expertise was Soviet disinformation techniques. Like Wolfowitz, he was a student of Leo Strauss’s, at the University of Chicago. Both men received their doctorates under Strauss in 1972. Strauss, a refugee from Nazi Germany who arrived in the United States in 1937, was trained in the history of political philosophy, and became one of the foremost conservative émigré scholars. He was widely known for his argument that the works of ancient philosophers contain deliberately concealed esoteric meanings whose truths can be comprehended only by a very few, and would be misunderstood by the masses. The Straussian movement has many adherents in and around the Bush Administration. In addition to Wolfowitz, they include William Kristol, the editor of the Weekly Standard, and Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, who is particularly close to Rumsfeld. Strauss’s influence on foreign-policy decision-making (he never wrote explicitly about the subject himself) is usually discussed in terms of his tendency to view the world as a place where isolated liberal democracies live in constant danger from hostile elements abroad, and face threats that must be confronted vigorously and with strong leadership.

How Strauss’s views might be applied to the intelligence-gathering process is less immediately obvious. As it happens, Shulsky himself explored that question in a 1999 essay, written with Gary Schmitt, entitled “Leo Strauss and the World of Intelligence (By Which We Do Not Mean Nous)”—in Greek philosophy the term nous denotes the highest form of rationality. In the essay, Shulsky and Schmitt write that Strauss’s “gentleness, his ability to concentrate on detail, his consequent success in looking below the surface and reading between the lines, and his seeming unworldliness . . . may even be said to resemble, however faintly, the George Smiley of John le Carré’s novels.” Echoing one of Strauss’s major themes, Shulsky and Schmitt criticize America’s intelligence community for its failure to appreciate the duplicitous nature of the regimes it deals with, its susceptibility to social-science notions of proof, and its inability to cope with deliberate concealment.

The agency’s analysts, Shulsky and Schmitt argue, “were generally reluctant throughout the Cold War to believe that they could be deceived about any critical question by the Soviet Union or other Communist states. History has shown this view to have been extremely naïve.” They suggested that political philosophy, with its emphasis on the variety of regimes, could provide an “antidote” to the C.I.A.’s failings, and would help in understanding Islamic leaders, “whose intellectual world was so different from our own.”

Strauss’s idea of hidden meaning, Shulsky and Schmitt added, “alerts one to the possibility that political life may be closely linked to deception. Indeed, it suggests that deception is the norm in political life, and the hope, to say nothing of the expectation, of establishing a politics that can dispense with it is the exception.”

Robert Pippin, the chairman of the Committee on Social Thought at Chicago and a critic of Strauss, told me, “Strauss believed that good statesmen have powers of judgment and must rely on an inner circle. The person who whispers in the ear of the King is more important than the King. If you have that talent, what you do or say in public cannot be held accountable in the same way.” Another Strauss critic, Stephen Holmes, a law professor at New York University, put the Straussians’ position this way: “They believe that your enemy is deceiving you, and you have to pretend to agree, but secretly you follow your own views.” Holmes added, “The whole story is complicated by Strauss’s idea—actually Plato’s—that philosophers need to tell noble lies not only to the people at large but also to powerful politicians.”

When I asked one of Strauss’s staunchest defenders, Joseph Cropsey, professor emeritus of political science at Chicago, about the use of Strauss’s views in the area of policymaking, he told me that common sense alone suggested that a certain amount of deception is essential in government. “That people in government have to be discreet in what they say publicly is so obvious—‘If I tell you the truth I can’t but help the enemy.’” But there is nothing in Strauss’s work, he added, that “favors preëmptive action. What it favors is prudence and sound judgment. If you could have got rid of Hitler in the nineteen-thirties, who’s not going to be in favor of that? You don’t need Strauss to reach that conclusion.”

Some former intelligence officials believe that Shulsky and his superiors were captives of their own convictions, and were merely deceiving themselves. Vincent Cannistraro, the former chief of counter-terrorism operations and analysis at the C.I.A., worked with Shulsky at a Washington think tank after his retirement. He said, “Abe is very gentle and slow to anger, with a sense of irony. But his politics were typical for his group—the Straussian view.” The group’s members, Cannistraro said, “reinforce each other because they’re the only friends they have, and they all work together. This has been going on since the nineteen-eighties, but they’ve never been able to coalesce as they have now. September 11th gave them the opportunity, and now they’re in heaven. They believe the intelligence is there. They want to believe it. It has to be there.”

The rising influence of the Office of Special Plans has been accompanied by a decline in the influence of the C.I.A. and the D.I.A. One internal Pentagon memorandum went so far as to suggest that terrorism experts in the government and outside it had deliberately “downplayed or sought to disprove” the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. “For many years, there has been a bias in the intelligence community” against defectors, the memorandum said. It urged that two analysts working with Shulsky be given the authority to “investigate linkages to Iraq” by having access to the “proper debriefing of key Iraqi defectors.”

A former C.I.A. task-force leader who is a consultant to the Bush Administration said that many analysts in the C.I.A. are convinced that the Chalabi group’s defector reports on weapons of mass destruction and Al Qaeda have produced little of value, but said that the agency “is not fighting it.” He said that the D.I.A. had studied the information as well. “Even the D.I.A. can’t find any value in it.” (The Pentagon, asked for comment, denied that there had been disputes between the C.I.A. and Special Plans over the validity of intelligence.)

In interviews, former C.I.A. officers and analysts described the agency as increasingly demoralized. “George knows he’s being beaten up,” one former officer said of George Tenet, the C.I.A. director. “And his analysts are terrified. George used to protect his people, but he’s been forced to do things their way.” Because the C.I.A.’s analysts are now on the defensive, “they write reports justifying their intelligence rather than saying what’s going on. The Defense Department and the Office of the Vice-President write their own pieces, based on their own ideology. We collect so much stuff that you can find anything you want.”

“They see themselves as outsiders, ” a former C.I.A. expert who spent the past decade immersed in Iraqi-exile affairs said of the Special Plans people. He added, “There’s a high degree of paranoia. They’ve convinced themselves that they’re on the side of angels, and everybody else in the government is a fool.”

More than a year’s worth of increasingly bitter debate over the value and integrity of the Special Plans intelligence came to a halt in March, when President Bush authorized the war against Iraq. After a few weeks of fighting, Saddam Hussein’s regime collapsed, leaving American forces to declare victory against a backdrop of disorder and uncertainty about the country’s future. Ahmad Chalabi and the I.N.C. continued to provoke fights within the Bush Administration. The Pentagon flew Chalabi and hundreds of his supporters, heavily armed, into Iraq, amid tight security, over angry objections from the State Department. Chalabi is now establishing himself in Baghdad. His advocates in the Pentagon point out that he is not only a Shiite, like the majority of Iraqis, but also, as one scholar put it, “a completely Westernized businessman” (he emigrated to England with his parents in 1958, when he was a boy), which is one reason the State Department doubts whether he can gain support among Iraqis.

Chalabi is not the only point of contention, however. The failure, as of last week, to find weapons of mass destruction in places where the Pentagon’s sources confidently predicted they would be found has reanimated the debate on the quality of the office’s intelligence. A former high-level intelligence official told me that American Special Forces units had been sent into Iraq in mid-March, before the start of the air and ground war, to investigate sites suspected of being missile or chemical- and biological-weapon storage depots. “They came up with nothing,” the official said. “Never found a single Scud.”

Since then, there have been a number of false alarms and a tip that weapons may have been destroyed in the last days before the war, but no solid evidence. On April 22nd, Hans Blix, hours before he asked the U.N. Security Council to send his team back to Iraq, told the BBC, “I think it’s been one of the disturbing elements that so much of the intelligence on which the capitals built their case seemed to have been so shaky.”

There is little self-doubt or second-guessing in the Pentagon over the failure to immediately find the weapons. The Pentagon adviser to Special Plans told me he believed that the delay “means nothing. We’ve got to wait to get all the answers from Iraqi scientists who will tell us where they are.” Similarly, the Pentagon official who works for Luti said last week, “I think they’re hidden in the mountains or transferred to some friendly countries. Saddam had enough time to move them.” There were suggestions from the Pentagon that Saddam might be shipping weapons over the border to Syria. “It’s bait and switch,” the former high-level intelligence official said. “Bait them into Iraq with weapons of mass destruction. And, when they aren’t found, there’s this whole bullshit about the weapons being in Syria.”

In Congress, a senior legislative aide said, “Some members are beginning to ask and to wonder, but cautiously.” For now, he told me, “the members don’t have the confidence to say that the Administration is off base.” He also commented, “For many, it makes little difference. We vanquished a bad guy and liberated the Iraqi people. Some are astute enough to recognize that the alleged imminent W.M.D. threat to the U.S. was a pretext. I sometimes have to pinch myself when friends or family ask with incredulity about the lack of W.M.D., and remind myself that the average person has the idea that there are mountains of the stuff over there, ready to be tripped over. The more time elapses, the more people are going to wonder about this, but I don’t think it will sway U.S. public opinion much. Everyone loves to be on the winning side.”

Weapons may yet be found. Iraq is a big country, as the Administration has repeatedly pointed out in recent weeks. In a speech last week, President Bush said, “We’ve begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated.” Meanwhile, if the American advance hasn’t uncovered stashes of weapons of mass destruction, it has turned up additional graphic evidence of the brutality of the regime. But Saddam Hussein’s cruelty was documented long before September 11th, and was not the principal reason the Bush Administration gave to the world for the necessity of war.

Former Senator Bob Kerrey, a Democrat who served on the Senate Intelligence Committee, has been a strong supporter of the President’s decision to overthrow Saddam. “I do think building a democratic secular state in Iraq justifies everything we’ve done,” Kerrey, who is now president of New School University, in New York, told me. “But they’ve taken the intelligence on weapons and expanded it beyond what was justified.” Speaking of the hawks, he said, “It appeared that they understood that to get the American people on their side they needed to come up with something more to say than ‘We’ve liberated Iraq and got rid of a tyrant.’ So they had to find some ties to weapons of mass destruction and were willing to allow a majority of Americans to incorrectly conclude that the invasion of Iraq had something to do with the World Trade Center. Overemphasizing the national-security threat made it more difficult to get the rest of the world on our side. It was the weakest and most misleading argument we could use.” Kerrey added, “It appears that they have the intelligence. The problem is, they didn’t like the conclusions.”



Copyright © CondéNet 2004
And:

Linky

CIA Probe Finds Secret Pentagon Group Manipulated Intelligence on Iraqi Threat
by Jason Leopold

July 25, 2003

A half-dozen former CIA agents investigating prewar intelligence have found that a secret Pentagon committee, set up by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld in October 2001, manipulated reams of intelligence information prepared by the spy agency on the so-called Iraqi threat and then delivered it to top White House officials who used it to win support for a war in Iraq.

More than a dozen calls to the White House, the CIA, the National Security Council and the Pentagon for comment were not returned.

The ad-hoc committee, called the Office of Special Plans, headed by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and other Pentagon hawks, described the worst-case scenarios in terms of Iraq's alleged stockpile of chemical and biological weapons and claimed the country was close to acquiring nuclear weapons, according to four of the CIA agents, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the information is still classified, who conducted a preliminary view of the intelligence.

The agents said the Office of Special Plans is responsible for providing the National Security Council and Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice and Rumsfeld with the bulk of the intelligence information on Iraq's weapons program that turned out to be wrong. But White House officials used the information it received from the Office of Special Plans to win support from the public and Congress to start a war in Iraq even though the White House knew much of the information was dubious, the CIA agents said.

For example, the agents said the Office of Special Plans told the National Security Council last year that Iraq's attempt to purchase aluminum tubes were part of a clandestine program to build an atomic bomb. The Office of Special Plans leaked the information to the New York Times last September. Shortly after the story appeared in the paper, Bush and Rice both pointed to the story as evidence that Iraq posed a grave threat to the United States and to its neighbors in the Middle East, even though experts in the field of nuclear science, the CIA and the State Department advised the White House that the aluminum tubes were not designed for an atomic bomb.

Furthermore, the CIA had been unable to develop any links between Iraq and the terrorist group al-Qaeda. But under Feith's direction, the Office of Special Plans came up with information of such links by looking at existing intelligence reports that they felt might have been overlooked or undervalued. The Special Plans office provided the information to the Pentagon and to the White House. During a Pentagon briefing last year, Rumsfeld said he had "bulletproof" evidence that Iraq was harboring al-Qaeda terrorists.

At a Pentagon news conference last year, Rumsfeld said of the intelligence gathered by Special Plans: "Gee, why don't you go over and brief George Tenet? So they did. They went over and briefed the CIA. So there's no there's no mystery about all this."

CIA analysts listened to the Pentagon team, nodded politely, and said, "Thank you very much," said one government official, according to a July 20 report in the New York Times. That official said the briefing did not change the agency's reporting or analysis in any substantial way.

Several current and former intelligence officials told the Times that they felt pressure to tailor reports to conform to the administration's views, "particularly the theories Feith's group developed."

Moreover, the agents said the Office of Special Plans routinely rewrote the CIA's intelligence estimates on Iraq's weapons programs, removing caveats such as "likely," "probably" and "may" as a way of depicting the country as an imminent threat. The agents would not identify the names of the individuals at the Office of Special Plans who were responsible for providing the White House with the wrong intelligence. But, the agents said, the intelligence gathered by the committee sometimes went directly to the White House, Cheney's office and to Rice without first being vetted by the CIA.

In cases where the CIA's intelligence wasn't rewritten the Office of Special Plans provided the White House with questionable intelligence it gathered from Iraqi exiles from the Iraqi National Congress, a group headed by Ahmad Chalabi, a person whom the CIA has publicly said is unreliable, the CIA agents said.

More than a dozen CIA agents responsible for writing intelligence reports for the agency told the former CIA agents investigating the accuracy of the intelligence reports said they were pressured by the Pentagon and the Office of Special Plans to hype and exaggerate intelligence to show Iraq as being an imminent threat to the security of the U.S.


The White House has been dogged by questions for nearly a month on whether the intelligence information it had relied upon was accurate and whether top White House officials knowingly used unreliable information to build a case for war. The furor started when President Bush said in his January State of the Union address that Iraq had tried to purchase uranium ore from Africa. Bush credited British intelligence for the claims, but the intelligence was based on forged documents. The Office of Special Plans is responsible for advising the White House to allow Bush to use the uranium claims in his speech, according to Democratic Senators and a CIA agent who are privy to classified information surrounding the issue.

CIA Director George Tenet took responsibility last week for allowing Bush to cite the information, despite the fact that he had warned the Rice's office that the claims were likely wrong. Earlier this week, Stephen Hadley, an aide to Rice, said he received two memos from the CIA last year and before Bush's State of the Union address alerting him to the fact that the uranium information should not be included in the State of the Union address. Hadley, who also took responsibility for failing to remove the uranium reference from Bush's speech, said he forgot to advise the President about the CIA's warnings.

Hawks in the White House and the Pentagon seized upon the uranium claims before and after Bush's State of the Union address, telling reporters, lawmakers and leaders of other nations that the only thing that can be done to disarm Saddam Hussein is a preemptive strike against his country.

The only White House official who didn't cite the uranium claim is Secretary of State Colin Powell. According to Greg Thielmann, who resigned last year from the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research – whose duties included tracking Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs – he personally told Powell that the allegations were "implausible" and the intelligence it was based upon was a "stupid piece of garbage."

Patrick Lang, the former head of worldwide human intelligence gathering for the Defense Intelligence Agency, which coordinates military intelligence, said the Office of Special Plans "cherry-picked the intelligence stream" in a bid to portray Iraq as an imminent threat. Lang said in interviews with several media outlets that the CIA had "no guts at all" to resist the allegedly deliberate skewing of intelligence by a Pentagon that he said was now dominating U.S. foreign policy.

Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counter-terrorist operations, said he has spoken to a number of working intelligence officers who blame the Pentagon for playing up "fraudulent" intelligence, "a lot of it sourced from the Iraqi National Congress of Ahmad Chalabi."

In an October 11, 2002 report in the Los Angeles Times, several CIA agents "who brief Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz on Iraq routinely return to the agency with a long list of complaints and demands for new analysis or shifts in emphasis."

"There is a lot of unhappiness with the analysis," usually because it is seen as not hard-line enough, one intelligence official said, according to the paper.

Another government official said CIA agents "are constantly sent back by the senior people at Defense and other places to get more, get more, get more to make their case," the paper reported.

Now, as U.S. military casualties have surpassed that of the first Gulf War, Democrats in Congress and the Senate are starting to question whether other information about the Iraqi threat cited by Bush and his staff was reliable or part of a coordinated effort by the White House to politicize the intelligence to win support for a war.

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is investigating the issue but so far neither the Senate intelligence committee nor any Congressional committee has launched an investigation into the Office of Special Plans. But that may soon change.

Based on several news reports into the activities of the Office of Special Plans, a number of lawmakers have called for an investigation into the group. Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher, D-California, who sits on the House Armed Services Committee, wrote a letter July 9 to Congressman Duncan Hunter, R-California, chairman of the Armed Services committee, calling for an investigation into the Office of Special Plans.

The Office of Special Plans should be examined to determine whether it "complemented, competed with, or detracted from the role of other United States intelligence agencies respecting the collection and use of intelligence relating to Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and war planning. I also think it is important to understand how having two intelligence agencies within the Pentagon impacted the Department of Defense's ability to focus the necessary resources and manpower on pre-war planning and post-war operations," Tauscher's letter said.

Congressman David Obey, D-Wisconsin, also called for a widespread investigation of the Office of Special Plans to find out whether there is any truth to the claims that it willfully manipulated intelligence on the Iraqi threat. During a Congressional briefing July 8, Obey described what he knew about Special Plans and why an investigation into the group is crucial.

"A group of civilian employees in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, all of whom are political employees have long been dissatisfied with the information produced by the established intelligence agencies both inside and outside the Department. That was particularly true, apparently, with respect to the situation in Iraq," Obey said. "As a result, it is reported that they established a special operation within the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which was named the Office of Special Plans. That office was charged with collecting, vetting, and disseminating intelligence completely outside the normal intelligence apparatus. In fact, it appears that the information collected by this office was in some instances not even shared with the established intelligence agencies and in numerous instances was passed on to the National Security Council and the President without having been vetted with anyone other than (the Secretary of Defense)."

"It is further alleged that the purpose of this operation was not only to produce intelligence more in keeping with the pre-held views of those individuals, but to intimidate analysts in the established intelligence organizations to produce information that was more supportive of policy decisions which they had already decided to propose."

And:

Linky
Posted June 19, 2003
More Missing Intelligence
by Robert Dreyfuss


A s the Pentagon scours Iraq for weapons of mass destruction and Iraqi links to Al Qaeda, it's increasingly obvious that the Bush Administration either distorted or deliberately exaggerated the intelligence used to justify the war against Iraq. But an even bigger intelligence scandal is waiting in the wi
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Linky
Posted June 19, 2003
More Missing Intelligence
by Robert Dreyfuss


A s the Pentagon scours Iraq for weapons of mass destruction and Iraqi links to Al Qaeda, it's increasingly obvious that the Bush Administration either distorted or deliberately exaggerated the intelligence used to justify the war against Iraq. But an even bigger intelligence scandal is waiting in the wings: the fact that members of the Administration failed to produce an intelligence evaluation of what Iraq might look like after the fall of Saddam Hussein. Instead, they ignored fears expressed by analysts at the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the State Department who predicted that postwar Iraq would be chaotic, violent and ungovernable, and that Iraqis would greet the occupying armies with firearms, not flowers.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, it turns out that the same people are responsible for both. According to current and former US intelligence analysts and government officials, the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans funneled information, unchallenged, from Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress (INC) to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, who in turn passed it on to the White House, suggesting that Iraqis would welcome the American invaders. The Office of Special Plans is led by Abram Shulsky, a hawkish neoconservative ideologue who got his start in politics working alongside Elliott Abrams in Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson's office in the 1970s. It was set up in fall 2001 as a two-man shop, but it burgeoned into an eighteen-member nerve center of the Pentagon's effort to distort intelligence about Iraq's WMDs and terrorist connections. A great deal of the bad information produced by Shulsky's office, which found its way into speeches by Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush, came from Chalabi's INC. Since the INC itself was sustained by its neocon allies in Washington, including the shadow "Central Command" at the American Enterprise Institute, it stands as perhaps the ultimate example of circular reasoning.

"The same unit [the Office of Special Plans] that fed Chalabi's intelligence on WMD to Rumsfeld was also feeding him Chalabi's stuff on the prospects for postwar Iraq," said a leading US government expert on the Middle East. Says a former US ambassador with strong links to the CIA: "There was certainly information coming from the Iraqi exile community, including Chalabi--who was detested by the CIA and by the State Department--saying, 'They will welcome you with open arms.'" Rumsfeld's willingness to accept that view led him to contradict the Chief of Staff of the US Army, who predicted that it would take hundreds of thousands of troops to control Iraq after the fall of Baghdad, a view that seems prescient today.

According to the former official, also feeding information to the Office of Special Plans was a secret, rump unit established last year in the office of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel. This unit, which paralleled Shulsky's--and which has not previously been reported--prepared intelligence reports on Iraq in English (not Hebrew) and forwarded them to the Office of Special Plans. It was created in Sharon's office, not inside Israel's Mossad intelligence service, because the Mossad--which prides itself on extreme professionalism--had views closer to the CIA's, not the Pentagon's, on Iraq. This secretive unit, and not the Mossad, may well have been the source of the forged documents purporting to show that Iraq tried to purchase yellowcake uranium for weapons from Niger in West Africa, according to the former official.

The catastrophic result of the belief that it would be easy to pacify postwar Iraq and to create a quisling government in Baghdad, a view that was codified as dogma by the White House, is unfolding daily in Iraq. The country is engulfed in economic and political chaos, armed resistance is growing among the Sunni Muslims in central Iraq, and the powerful and largely hostile Shiite clergy in the south has barely begun to flex its muscles. Not only that, but Iraq watchers report that former Baath Party members are coalescing into nascent political formations, leading armed resistance to the occupation, and that they could emerge as either a strong political party or an underground terrorist group.

Astonishingly, the Bush Administration did not even bother to prepare and internally publish an intelligence estimate about postwar Iraq. (An "estimate," in intelligence jargon, is a formal evaluation produced after sifting, sorting and analyzing various bits and pieces of raw intelligence. So-called National Intelligence Estimates are produced by a unit that reports immediately to Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet.) "Back in the old days, there would have been an estimate," says Raymond McGovern, the twenty-seven-year CIA warrior who formed Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity this past January. "In their arrogance, they didn't worry about it."

Other sources concur. "There was no intelligence estimate done, and there weren't a lot of questions being asked," says Melvin Goodman, a former CIA analyst with the Center for International Policy. "And I know for a fact that at CIA and NESA [the State Department's Bureau of Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs], none of them thought that postwar Iraq would be governable." Goodman says that CIA and DIA experts on Iraq were not called in by the Pentagon, and no intelligence roundtables were held to evaluate the situation. Most of the intelligence about how easily the INC and its allies could assume power in Iraq was coming from the INC itself, says a former State Department official. "And I know for a fact that when the subject came up, intelligence officers were extraordinarily skeptical of the exiles' information."


On the eve of the invasion, there was something akin to panic at the Norfolk,Virginia-based US Joint Forces Command, which was responsible for supporting the Pentagon's Iraq task force, then headed by retired Gen. Jay Garner. "They were scared shitless," says a former US official who was in close contact with the command. "They were making it up as they went along." He adds, "There was a great deal of ignorance. They didn't know the names of the [Iraqi] tribes, much less how they relate to each other. They didn't have the expertise, and they didn't have enough time to assemble the expertise."

Such expertise would have allowed the Army to foresee that once Saddam was eliminated, Iranian-backed Shiite forces in southern Iraq, with great influence over the 60 percent of Iraqis who are Shiite, would instantly emerge as a powerful claimant to power. Instead of leading to the democracy envisioned by Bush, the war in Iraq could result in a Shiite-dominated fundamentalist regime, a prospect that is starting to seem the most likely. Not the kind of victory Bush wants to take to the US electorate in 2004.

At a June forum on Iraq at the American Enterprise Institute, Kenneth Katzman, the Middle East specialist at the Congressional Research Service, made a chilling prediction of how the crisis in Iraq will continue to unfold, to the discomfort of his AEI hosts. The Shiite forces in southern Iraq, he said, are content for now to let the Sunni-led guerrillas harass and weaken US troops. "The Shiites hope that Sunni violence in central Iraq will force the United States out, and then the Shiites will move in and pick up the pieces," he said. Despite discord and infighting among the Shiites, Katzman said, most of the Shiite leadership is tied closely to the Iranian government and its ultraconservative clergy. For the rest of this year, he predicted, the US forces in Iraq will be unable to pacify the country or halt the violence, and by next year, as the election nears, there will be enormous political pressure for the United States to withdraw--or, in Washington-speak, to develop an "exit strategy." The question for Bush, according to Katzman, is, Does the United States have the political staying power to continue to sustain one or two casualties a day in October 2004?

That's a question that ought to disturb Karl Rove's sleep. And it might be a question that Democratic would-be opponents of the President ought to ponder. A massive failure of US intelligence has led to an emerging disaster in postwar Iraq. It's a true crisis, and one that could determine the fate of Bush's presidency. In Watergate, the refrain was: "What did the President know, and when did he know it?" Let me suggest a question for Bush, the know-nothing GOP standard-bearer in 2004: "What didn't the President know, and when didn't he know it?"
And:


Want more?.
How utterly PATHETIC —you actually imagine that a vague and general one-line definition supports you?! First, you did first employ the specific term "army" and not the more generalised term "military", which refers to the combined armed forces. Now you try to reverse the sense and say that "military" and "army" are equally interchangeable in terms of your first statement. Nevermind that it ignores the fact that a political force such as the SS or the Iranian Revolutionary Guards are not part of the national army and certainly does not answer to the military chain-of-command but its own political authority.
www.Dictionary.com supports my definition of the term, asswipe. Ha ha ha.
And real world examples such as the SS, the NKVD, and the Revolutionary Guard support mine. Eat it.
On the contrary, dolt, it demonstrates that the case is uncertain as to the extent of official sanction for Al-Qaeda support, on whether the passport overlook policy was intended to aid Al-Qaeda or was aimed at accomodating Saudi nationals in general.
The MSNBC article has already made clear that the consciously intended benefactors were “jihadists.”

To reiterate:

Link
MSNBC wrote:excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.

We're talking about the issue of whether there was official Iranian sanction for Al-Qaeda movement through their borders, or whether this is down to elements in the Revolutionary Guards acting independently, or whether doubt exists of any special favours being accorded to Bin Laden's group.
Even though US President George W. Bush included Iran in the “axis of evil,” Iranian and US diplomats have held periodic exchanges since the September 11 terrorism tragedy. The meetings reflect the reality that the United States needs Iran's assistance as the Bush administration wages its war on terrorism. At the same time, the exchanges are unlikely to result in the normalization of US-Iranian relations.

Shortly before the United States opened its campaign to oust Iraq dictator Saddam Hussein, senior US officials found themselves in a déjà vu moment: meeting in secret once again with Iranian leaders as the US military prepared to strike one of Tehran’s neighbors. In 2002 , the meeting concerned Afghanistan, this year the subject was Iraq.

According to published reports, White House special envoy to the Iraqi opposition Zalmay Khalilzad asked Iranian officials in Geneva to pledge Tehran’s assistance for any American pilots downed in Iranian territory. Khalilzad also sought assurances that Iran’s armed forces would not join the fighting at any time. According to Iranian sources familiar with the meeting, Tehran agreed to both, but asked for a promise of its own: that the United States would not set its sights on Iran after the US army toppled Saddam Hussein’s regime. American officials reportedly equivocated, though Britain has quietly reassured Iran that the Bush administration has no intention of exerting military pressure against Tehran.

Tehran and Washington share a few common enemies in the war on terrorism. They include: the Taliban (Shi'a Iran regularly quarreled with the Sunni extremists on their border); Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein (Iran fought a brutal eight year war with Iraq after Saddam invaded Iran in1980 ); and even al Qaeda (Iran has called them "a menace" and Osama bin Laden's Sunni extremism turned off virtually all political factions in Iran, even if his politics attracted Iran's hard-liners).

Iran has staked out a position of "active neutrality" in the Iraq conflict, quietly cooperating with the United States where possible, seeking to secure its own legitimate interests in a post-Saddam Iraq, and loudly protesting what some Iranian officials have described as a US desire to control Iraqi oil resources. This double game – quiet assistance coupled with public denunciations – is partly a reflection of Tehran’s fear that it will become Washington’s next target. Another factor is Iran’s perceived need to actively safeguard its own interests against US ambitions to remake the Middle East’s geopolitical landscape. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].


Considering Iran’s inability and unwillingness to challenge the Jerusalem Force, these “discussions” – which say nothing about al-Qaeda prisoners in Iranian hands, mind you – mean jack and crap. In light of the movement of Iranian agents to counteract American initiatives in Iraq, and the attempt to bring America to war on Iran’s part, its motives must be looked at not in the spirit of neutrality or goodwill, but in the spirit of manipulation and hostility.
No, it is your argument which means jack and shit. Simply repeating the same charge ad-infinitum does not rebut the information in the above article.
As for “equivocation,” people lie, Deegan. You do it all the time.
Pot. Kettle. Black. And from the man who once actually attempted to redefine the word "lie" to suit his own purposes.
US-Iran talks: Iran and the US are holding back channel talks on Afghanistan, Iraq and the Al Qaeda terror network, a leading Iranian parliamentary official said Wednesday. The parliament’s National Security and Foreign Affairs Committee member Elaheh Koulaie said Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi informed the panel on Tuesday of the agenda, the state news agency IRNA reported.
No statement regarding prisoners.
Becaue that's not the issue this particular piece is dealing with, pinhead.
For now, the Bush administration appears to be staking out a dramatically more patient approach than its allies advocate, opting to explore with European countries the possibility of bringing the issue of Iran's nuclear program to the United Nations in the coming months. The idea would be to address the issue through a more general discussion of the fight against nuclear proliferation, sources said.

The administration's goal would be to have the Security Council call for a tighter enforcement of the rules governing the Non-Proliferation Treaty, without specifically referring to Tehran's ambitions. A U.S. official said the administration was considering this option, adding that discussions were still at an early stage.


And this means what, in the context of my argument? Just because the administration takes a particular tack doesn’t mean it’s correct in all things. That’s one of your favorite attacks, I might add.
It means that unlike with yourself, sanity appears to be the order of the day in this White House for a change, as well as a recognition of reality. Nice little Style Over Substance Fallacy, BTW, but another poor dodge of the issue at hand.
Tensions between Iran and the European Union continue to escalate over the issue of whether Tehran's nuclear program is designed to make weapons. The U.S. is demanding that a deadline be set for U.N. weapons inspections in the country, and fears are increasing of another conflict in the Middle East.

Yet all is not aggressive confrontation between Iran and the West. Behind the scenes, cultural and scholarly exchanges are taking place. These, rather than direct diplomatic interventions, often produce political effects that cannot be achieved by any other means.

In a signal instance of cultural diplomacy, the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago has returned a set of 300 ancient clay tablets to Iran in what amounts to the first U.S.-led repatriation of archaeological objects to the country since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.


Your point? We had an open relationship with Germany prior to our entrance into the Second World War. “Cultural and scholarly” exchanges have apparently meant nothing to Iran, who continues provocative activity regardless.
The point is that rapproachment has its beginnings in exchanges such as this —such as the ping-pong exhibitions between the U.S. and China in the early 70s. You just totally and deliberately miss the point.
But Bush administration officials insist that the Iranian link to Al Qaeda was never clear. They also point to a change of attitude by Tehran since 9/11. Iranian officials claim they have "expelled or repatriated" large numbers of bin Laden followers, and last Saturday the country's intelligence chief, Ali Yunesi, announced new arrests. Yet other Qaeda suspects—like bin Laden's son Saad and Saif Al-Adel, once Al Qaeda's security chief, along with eight others—are believed to still be in Iran, possibly under some kind of protective custody to be used as leverage in future U.S.-Iran talks.

Did you actually read this?
Yes and unlike you, I can actually comprehend its meaning.
South Korea 1950, Lebanon 1982, Kuwait 1991. Physical enforcement of international law. You have no argument.
Grenada 1982, Iraq 2003. Physical enforcement of American standards. You have no argument.
Wrong, asshole. Grenada was within the context of international law —military action to rescue nationals under threat of immediate danger:

Linky
excerpt:

Right to Protect Nationals

M. Akehurst argued that the use of force to protect nationals abroad constitutes a form of self-defence.11 He equated an armed attack on nationals abroad with that on the state itself, since it is the population that makes up a state.12 It is controversial whether Article 51 permits the use of force in this situation; it depends on one's interpretation of the article.

The right to use force to protect nationals may be justified on two grounds:

* the use of force to protect nationals is a form of self-defence;

* it is "a right exempt from Article 2(4) because it is not (and does not compromise) 'territorial integrity or political independence'".13

An example whereby the alleged use of force to protect nationals abroad is legal is the 1976 Israeli rescue mission at Entebbe Airport, Uganda, which involved the use of armed force to rescue its nationals held hostage abroad.14 Another more controversial case is the Icelandic Fisheries Case between Iceland and Britain. Known as the "Cod War" in the late 1950s and early 1960s, British vessels were used "to protect the asserted right of the British trawlers to fish in the disputed zone".15 Britain justified its use of force in the "Cod War" as its right to protect its nationals fishing in the disputed zone.

And:

Intervention by Invitation

In general, a state may invite external states to intervene in its civil war. "Intervention by foreign states in wars of national liberalisation would be lawful only if it could be shown that the national liberation movement (or the people whom it claims to represent) was the victim of an armed attack."40 "A legitimate government may invite the forces of another state on to its territory for any purpose lawful under international law, that is, not for genocide, wars of aggression, or to prevent an exercise of self-determination etc."41 Thus, the use of force can be lawful if one can prove that one has been invited to intervene. That is, use of force in intervention by invitation is legal. An example is the US and Allied Forces deployment of troops to states in the Middle East following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. However, the use of force in intervention by invitation also gives rise to two problems; namely, it may serve to "encourage dictatorial interference" by other states or it may be a "fabricated invitation", as in the case of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in 1979 and the US in Grenada in 1984.42
As for the present war, one illegal action does not negate the practise of international law. I also must point out at this juncture that in the "Our World Historical Gamble" thread, you were among those claiming that the invasion of Iraq was perfectly legal under an alleged blanket authourisation granted under UNSCR 1441. That is of course when you weren't aping Mr. Hitler. As always, your argument shifts with the breeze.
Grenanda's invasion came at the request of the island's British Governor-General and the U.S. stayed only as long as required to evacuate the students and secure peace on the island. There was no loss of sovereignty no matter how much you try to twist reality to fit your sophistries.
The Cubans certainly didn’t stay.
Cute but irrelevant.
Only in that delusional mind of yours, fuckface. No Americans on the ground in Iran, no revolutionary chaos endangering Americans on the ground in Iran, and the clear operational history that sponsorship of terrorism is not grounds for military attack. No parallel to Grenada exists. You have no argument.
Are you fucking kidding me? Iran has not moved against the Revolutionary Guards. We thus have grounds for believing it is supporting them in full.
"Belief" is not evidence.
As for this “revolutionary chaos” bullshit, if we subscribe to your argument, there is indeed chaos characterizing the relationship between Iran and large elements of its military forces, a result of which is support for al-Qaeda against AMERICAN targets. You lose.
Um nope —you STILL try to duck the fact that Iran is demonstrably not under threat of a military coup, and have failed to provide evidence to the contrary beyond your endless yammerings.
As for precedent, I could repeat myself, but why?
As that has been your entire approach to this debate for the last four pages now, when have you not been repeating the same non-arguments?
You deny that you’ve attempted to raise Pakistan as the guiding example in terms of what you believe must be done in Iran?
No, I've raised it because it contradicts your picture of Iran as unstable and facing revolutionary threat, your argument that general support for terrorism argues a war justification, and of course also exposes your double-standard.
Not only have I not been "to absolve Iran from supporting terrorists" (an OUTRIGHT FUCKING LIE), this:
You certainly have. Arguing that their “general” support for terrorism is no danger, and that their inability to control a swatch of their military (which is known to support al-Qaeda) means nothing to the United States’ national security.
I certainly have not, liar. I clearly stated that regional terrorism —which includes those groups supported by Iranian elements— constitutes a security danger on that level. I have not argued against defending against terrorist threats nor have denied Iranian involvement with Hizbollah, HAMAS, or Al-Qaeda. I'd challenge you to produce an actual text quote from me that says otherwise, but I know you can't and will try to bullshit your way out of admitting yet another of your patently obvious falsehoods.
Pathetic.
Yes, you certainly are. 8)
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Joe
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Post by Joe »

What the hell happened to the formatting? :shock:

By the way, let me express my astonishment at the fact that both of you have still got this thread going.
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I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Which is supposed to support your tedious non-arguments how, exactly? Invoking the Al-Qaeda bogeyman doesn't blur the distinction between a general threat and an imminent threat.
Al-Qaeda is currently attempting to effect attacks on American soil, dumb-ass. If Iran is helping them, then the two are in collusion, and Iran is an accessory to a clear and present danger.

An imminent danger does not arise only, as you would have us believe, after an attack has been made. Preemption is all about challenging those actively seeking to do one harm in the future. If Iran is aiding those parties in any way, shape, or form, then they, too, are contributing to an imminent threat.
Still trying to use an exception to destroy a general rule. The difference is where the question of official sanction enters the picture. The 9-11 Commission report states clearly that there is no indication of Iranian sanction or even knowledge of the WTC strikes. It states that the degree of sanction for support of Al-Qaeda's activities is uncertain. And there is no record of any Iranian complicity or sanction for any terrorist action remotely approaching the scale of the WTC strike.
No, not a “general rule” in any way, shape, or form, but rather a sophistry of your own devising that has now begun to spring obvious holes.

Iran didn’t need prior knowledge of the WTC strikes in order for the Jerusalem Force to become a source of funding, supplies, and intelligence for al-Qaeda. Official Iranian connections to al-Qaeda’s activities are equally unnecessary, so long as they (A) support pro-terrorist activities whose beneficiaries include al-Qaeda members in general (which they have), and (B) go without so much as an abortive attempt by the government to bring them back into line (evidence of which you’ve as yet been unable to provide despite multiple chances).
Except that they financed and aided a terrorist organization that was the avowed enemy of the United States of America.

—so did elements of Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, and its military:
Red Herring. There is no celestial law that states that the United States is bound to treat all situations with the same rote responses. Pakistan’s situation is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from that in Iran, meaning our options – and the consequences of those options – vary greatly. But then, you already know this, and are merely trying to buy time before your argument goes entirely down the tubes.

It’s also quite unusual that Iran was capable of exercising such strict control over the terrorist groups in your quote, but has been utterly unwilling to call to heel its own Jerusalem Force at the same time. Curiouser and curiouser.
Furthermore, as the Taliban employed Al-Qaeda as fighters against the insurgency of the Northern Alliance, it can be said to an extent that Osama binLaden's organisation were acting in the capacity of the Taliban's security forces.
And, as elements of the Iranian armed forces employed al-Qaeda as proxies, it can be said to an extent that Osama bin Laden’s organization were acting in the capacity of Iran’s guns-for-hire – a charge especially damning since Iran has not so much as attempted to challenge the Jerusalem Force’s near-free reign when it comes to terrorist connections.
From the report on the 9-11 Commission's findings. You have no argument.
Findings which do not at all state what you are attempting to prove, moron. It is you who have no argument.
False Analogy Fallacy yet again. And yet another dodge of the central question.
It is only you who are dodging the central question – which is one of the essence of Iran’s intentions vis-à-vis the United States, not of George Bush’s complicity in intelligence failures. But we know this is very hard for you.
Which has absolutely jack and shit to do with any counterintelligence situation between nations.
You argued that false information can never be responsible for death or destruction. You were proven wrong. Wanking about how because Nation A was unable to punish Nation B for specific acts does not a precedent establish.
HUH? What the fuck point is THIS supposed to make?!
Iran’s activities were not counter-intelligence at all, but in fact intelligence activities. Iran was the active forces, not the reactive force in this situation.
Denial does not a rebuttal make.
It’s not denial whatsoever, but raw fact. George Bush and questions of responsibility for domestic intelligence failures have NO FUCKING BEARING AT ALL on how we must read Iranian intentions as a result of their activities.
I've admitted no such thing, fucker.
Were you or were you not forced to admit that our response to Afghanistan defied precedent, you dishonest hatfucker?
Explain that, then.
Russia’s involvement is no guarantee of transparency in Iran, retard. In fact, considering Russia’s record in Iraq, it’s actually a negative.
The bulk of Iran's population are presently apathetic about the Islamic Revolution and have no particular love for the mullahs. That will change in an instant if there is an American attack; they won't love the mullahs but they will rally around their own flag, and any impulse for reform will be set back a decade at least. Which is also a consideration even in this White House:
Then the White House has made an incorrect assessment, considering that the reform movements are nowhere near a decade from seizing power. If anything, the central government’s control over Iranian politics has only increased in the recent past.
If Special Plans was going to search for new intelligence on Iraq, the most obvious source was defectors with firsthand knowledge. The office inevitably turned to Ahmad Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress. The I.N.C., an umbrella organization for diverse groups opposed to Saddam, is constantly seeking out Iraqi defectors. The Special Plans Office developed a close working relationship with the I.N.C., and this strengthened its position in disputes with the C.I.A. and gave the Pentagon’s pro-war leadership added leverage in its constant disputes with the State Department. Special Plans also became a conduit for intelligence reports from the I.N.C. to officials in the White House.
Cooperation with the I.N.C. does not mean exclusive dealings with the I.N.C., genius.
There was a close personal bond, too, between Chalabi and Wolfowitz and Perle, dating back many years. Their relationship deepened after the Bush Administration took office, and Chalabi’s ties extended to others in the Administration, including Rumsfeld; Douglas Feith, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Policy; and I. Lewis Libby, Vice-President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. For years, Chalabi has had the support of prominent members of the American Enterprise Institute and other conservatives. Chalabi had some Democratic supporters, too, including James Woolsey, the former head of the C.I.A.
Immaterial.
With the Pentagon’s support, Chalabi’s group worked to put defectors with compelling stories in touch with reporters in the United States and Europe. The resulting articles had dramatic accounts of advances in weapons of mass destruction or told of ties to terrorist groups. In some cases, these stories were disputed in analyses by the C.I.A. Misstatements and inconsistencies in I.N.C. defector accounts were also discovered after the final series of U.N. weapons inspections, which ended a few days before the American assault. Dr. Glen Rangwala, a lecturer in political science at Cambridge University, compiled and examined the information that had been made public and concluded that the U.N. inspections had failed to find evidence to support the defectors’ claims.
For the thirtieth time: prove that the I.N.C. statements were repackaged without additional corroboration from any other source, not that the I.N.C. itself was later questioned.
A former Bush Administration intelligence official recalled a case in which Chalabi’s group, working with the Pentagon, produced a defector from Iraq who was interviewed overseas by an agent from the D.I.A. The agent relied on an interpreter supplied by Chalabi’s people. Last summer, the D.I.A. report, which was classified, was leaked. In a detailed account, the London Times described how the defector had trained with Al Qaeda terrorists in the late nineteen-nineties at secret camps in Iraq, how the Iraqis received instructions in the use of chemical and biological weapons, and how the defector was given a new identity and relocated. A month later, however, a team of C.I.A. agents went to interview the man with their own interpreter. “He says, ‘No, that’s not what I said,’” the former intelligence official told me. “He said, ‘I worked at a fedayeen camp; it wasn’t Al Qaeda.’ He never saw any chemical or biological training.” Afterward, the former official said, “the C.I.A. sent out a piece of paper saying that this information was incorrect. They put it in writing.” But the C.I.A. rebuttal, like the original report, was classified. “I remember wondering whether this one would leak and correct the earlier, invalid leak. Of course, it didn’t.”
That’s not the Bush administration’s mistake, but the Defense Intelligence Agency’s.
More than a year’s worth of increasingly bitter debate over the value and integrity of the Special Plans intelligence came to a halt in March, when President Bush authorized the war against Iraq. After a few weeks of fighting, Saddam Hussein’s regime collapsed, leaving American forces to declare victory against a backdrop of disorder and uncertainty about the country’s future. Ahmad Chalabi and the I.N.C. continued to provoke fights within the Bush Administration. The Pentagon flew Chalabi and hundreds of his supporters, heavily armed, into Iraq, amid tight security, over angry objections from the State Department. Chalabi is now establishing himself in Baghdad. His advocates in the Pentagon point out that he is not only a Shiite, like the majority of Iraqis, but also, as one scholar put it, “a completely Westernized businessman” (he emigrated to England with his parents in 1958, when he was a boy), which is one reason the State Department doubts whether he can gain support among Iraqis.
Chalabi’s biography is immaterial.
Moreover, the agents said the Office of Special Plans routinely rewrote the CIA's intelligence estimates on Iraq's weapons programs, removing caveats such as "likely," "probably" and "may" as a way of depicting the country as an imminent threat. The agents would not identify the names of the individuals at the Office of Special Plans who were responsible for providing the White House with the wrong intelligence. But, the agents said, the intelligence gathered by the committee sometimes went directly to the White House, Cheney's office and to Rice without first being vetted by the CIA.

In cases where the CIA's intelligence wasn't rewritten the Office of Special Plans provided the White House with questionable intelligence it gathered from Iraqi exiles from the Iraqi National Congress, a group headed by Ahmad Chalabi, a person whom the CIA has publicly said is unreliable, the CIA agents said.[/uote]

Providing the I.N.C.’s reports to intelligence agencies is not issuing public statements of their truth.
Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counter-terrorist operations, said he has spoken to a number of working intelligence officers who blame the Pentagon for playing up "fraudulent" intelligence, "a lot of it sourced from the Iraqi National Congress of Ahmad Chalabi."
“A lot of it,” not all of it. Big difference.
Not surprisingly, perhaps, it turns out that the same people are responsible for both. According to current and former US intelligence analysts and government officials, the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans funneled information, unchallenged, from Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress (INC) to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, who in turn passed it on to the White House, suggesting that Iraqis would welcome the American invaders. The Office of Special Plans is led by Abram Shulsky, a hawkish neoconservative ideologue who got his start in politics working alongside Elliott Abrams in Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson's office in the 1970s. It was set up in fall 2001 as a two-man shop, but it burgeoned into an eighteen-member nerve center of the Pentagon's effort to distort intelligence about Iraq's WMDs and terrorist connections. A great deal of the bad information produced by Shulsky's office, which found its way into speeches by Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush, came from Chalabi's INC. Since the INC itself was sustained by its neocon allies in Washington, including the shadow "Central Command" at the American Enterprise Institute, it stands as perhaps the ultimate example of circular reasoning.
Not all. I win.

Funneling information is not issuing information as fact, Deegan. Which means that, as of yet, you’ve been utterly unable to substantiate your earlier remarks. :lol:
And real world examples such as the SS, the NKVD, and the Revolutionary Guard support mine. Eat it.
The SS are always discussed in reference to the German Army, moron. Only you will be eating anything tonight.
We're talking about the issue of whether there was official Iranian sanction for Al-Qaeda movement through their borders, or whether this is down to elements in the Revolutionary Guards acting independently, or whether doubt exists of any special favours being accorded to Bin Laden's group.
Not at all. We’re talking about whether Iran’s general laxity in border control – overtly and intentionally designed to aid “jihadists” constitutes knowing support for al-Qaeda, and whether the Iranian government’s heretofore refusal and/or inability to challenge the Revolutionary Guards represents an imminent danger, and/or conscious and specific support.
No, it is your argument which means jack and shit. Simply repeating the same charge ad-infinitum does not rebut the information in the above article.
You’ve been unable to deny any of those charges effectively, idiot. Your entire argument consists of wanking about hypothetical discussions mentioned in passing by European diplomats and a false interpretation of reports that say that the central government in Iran did not provide specific favors to al-Qaeda in particular.
Becaue that's not the issue this particular piece is dealing with, pinhead.
You’ve never provided anything about the prisoners, moron.
It means that unlike with yourself, sanity appears to be the order of the day in this White House for a change, as well as a recognition of reality. Nice little Style Over Substance Fallacy, BTW, but another poor dodge of the issue at hand.
We’ve already discussed why the administration is wrong on this issue, beginning with Iran’s unwillingness to offer more than token change up to public scrutiny, and ending with their recent intelligence forrays and lack of control over the Revolutionary Guards.
The point is that rapproachment has its beginnings in exchanges such as this —such as the ping-pong exhibitions between the U.S. and China in the early 70s. You just totally and deliberately miss the point.
If Iranian support for terrorism is rapproachment, what’s open friendship? :lol:
Yes and unlike you, I can actually comprehend its meaning.
So now “protective custody” means that they’re being interrogated and sent to the U.S., hm? :lol:
Wrong, asshole. Grenada was within the context of international law —military action to rescue nationals under threat of immediate danger:
And since al-Qaeda is planning to attack American targets and citizens, and Iran supports them, Iran is aiding and abetting an immediate danger.
As for the present war, one illegal action does not negate the practise of international law. I also must point out at this juncture that in the "Our World Historical Gamble" thread, you were among those claiming that the invasion of Iraq was perfectly legal under an alleged blanket authourisation granted under UNSCR 1441. That is of course when you weren't aping Mr. Hitler. As always, your argument shifts with the breeze.
Actually, if we use your argument wherein action always trumps philosophy by providing a historical example, then I still win.

But then, bombing Iran would be perfectly legal, considering their crimes and active negligence.
Cute but irrelevant.
Absolutely relevant, since we intervened beyond protecting American citizens, moron.
"Belief" is not evidence.
But according to you, the Tehran government is in full control. That is prima facie evidence of support for the Jerusalem Force’s activities, because it could technically stop “rogue” elements at any time, according to your characterization. :lol:
Um nope —you STILL try to duck the fact that Iran is demonstrably not under threat of a military coup, and have failed to provide evidence to the contrary beyond your endless yammerings.[/quote

Um nope – this is you STILL trying to convince the world that a nation is only not in complete control of its territories when it is about to collapse completely. Go tell that to the Russians. Or Iraq under Saddam.
As that has been your entire approach to this debate for the last four pages now, when have you not been repeating the same non-arguments?
You’ve already destroyed your own approach. “Special exemptions” my ass.
No, I've raised it because it contradicts your picture of Iran as unstable and facing revolutionary threat, your argument that general support for terrorism argues a war justification, and of course also exposes your double-standard.
Unless Iran is unstable, it is a state sponsor of al-Qaeda. Understand that unless it is considered to be unable to exercise control over its own military – which it evidently is considered not to be able to do -, it is supporting terrorism through the same kind of inaction as was once the case in Afghanistan.

Not to mention that not every justification for war MUST be acted upon, idiot. There goes your last hope.
I certainly have not, liar. I clearly stated that regional terrorism —which includes those groups supported by Iranian elements— constitutes a security danger on that level. I have not argued against defending against terrorist threats nor have denied Iranian involvement with Hizbollah, HAMAS, or Al-Qaeda. I'd challenge you to produce an actual text quote from me that says otherwise, but I know you can't and will try to bullshit your way out of admitting yet another of your patently obvious falsehoods.
You argue that we cannot fairly punish Iran for their support for terrorism because it isn’t a clear and present danger to the United States. You did it in the first statement of your last post. Oops. :lol:
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Comical Axi's continuing campaign to become the Darkstar of the N&P board continues unabated, it seems. This is going to have to be split.
Axis Kast wrote:Al-Qaeda is currently attempting to effect attacks on American soil, dumb-ass. If Iran is helping them, then the two are in collusion, and Iran is an accessory to a clear and present danger.
Oh really? According to this:
9-11 Commission Staff Report n.15 wrote:excerpt:

Al Qaeda today
Since the September 11 attacks and the defeat of the Taliban, al Qaeda’s funding has decreased significantly. The arrests or deaths of several important financial facilitators have decreased the amount of money al Qaeda has raised and increased the costs and difficulty of raising and moving that money. Some entirely corrupt charities are now out of business, with many of their principals killed or captured, although some charities may still be providing support to al Qaeda. Moreover, it appears that the al Qaeda attacks within Saudi Arabia in May and November of 2003 have reduced—perhaps drastically— al Qaeda’s ability to raise funds from Saudi sources. Both an increase in Saudi enforcement and a more negative perception of al Qaeda by potential donors have cut its income.

At the same time, al Qaeda’s expenditures have decreased as well, largely because it no longer provides substantial funding to the Taliban or runs a network of training camps in Afghanistan. Despite the apparent reduction in overall funding, it remains relatively easy for al Qaeda to find the relatively small sums required to fund terrorist operations. Prior to 9/11, al Qaeda was a centralized organization which used Afghanistan as a war room to strategize, plan attacks, and dispatch operatives worldwide. Bin Ladin approved all al Qaeda operations, often selecting the targets and operatives. After al Qaeda lost Afghanistan after 9/11, it fundamentally changed. The organization is far more decentralized. Bin Ladin’s seclusion forced operational commanders and cell leaders to assume greater authority; they are now making the command decisions previously made by him.

Bin Ladin continues to inspire many of the operatives he trained and dispersed, as well as smaller Islamic extremist groups and individual fighters who share his ideology. As a result, al Qaeda today is more a loose collection of regional networks with a greatly weakened central organization. It pushes these networks to carry out attacks, and assists them by providing guidance, funding, and training in skills such as bomb-making or urban combat.
—Al-Qaeda haven't the capability they possessed before 9-11, and they can "strive" to do a thing, but without the actual capacity to do it, their strivings and desires in that direction are meaningless. And according to this:

Linky
excerpt:

But Bush administration officials insist that the Iranian link to Al Qaeda was never clear. They also point to a change of attitude by Tehran since 9/11. Iranian officials claim they have "expelled or repatriated" large numbers of bin Laden followers, and last Saturday the country's intelligence chief, Ali Yunesi, announced new arrests. Yet other Qaeda suspects—like bin Laden's son Saad and Saif Al-Adel, once Al Qaeda's security chief, along with eight others—are believed to still be in Iran, possibly under some kind of protective custody to be used as leverage in future U.S.-Iran talks.
—not only raises doubts about whether there is any Iranian/Al-Qaeda cooperation at present but indicates that the mullahs are holding out for the right deal to sell Al-Qaeda out.
An imminent danger does not arise only, as you would have us believe, after an attack has been made. Preemption is all about challenging those actively seeking fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap....
The only legitimate grounds for preemptive military action is when solid intel of an imminent attack or the active preparations for an imminent attack are found to be undeway and no other option is open. It does not legitimise any action against anyone anywhere at any time on mere suspicion with no factual support behind it.
Still trying to use an exception to destroy a general rule. The difference is where the question of official sanction enters the picture. The 9-11 Commission report states clearly that there is no indication of Iranian sanction or even knowledge of the WTC strikes. It states that the degree of sanction for support of Al-Qaeda's activities is uncertain. And there is no record of any Iranian complicity or sanction for any terrorist action remotely approaching the scale of the WTC strike.
No, not a “general rule” in any way, shape, or form, but rather a sophistry of your own devising that has now begun to spring obvious holes.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Iran didn’t need prior knowledge of the WTC strikes in order for the Jerusalem Force to become a source of funding, supplies, and intelligence for al-Qaeda. Official Iranian connections to al-Qaeda’s activities are equally unnecessary, so long as they (A) support pro-terrorist activities whose beneficiaries include al-Qaeda members in general (which they have), and (B) go without so much as an abortive attempt by the government to bring them back into line (evidence of which you’ve as yet been unable to provide despite multiple chances).
An argument which applied equally well to Pakistan yet was insufficent as grounds for action against that nation, and one which even this White House isn't going to blow its remaining shreds of credibility on. And as for "no evidence", this:

Linky
excerpt:

But Bush administration officials insist that the Iranian link to Al Qaeda was never clear. They also point to a change of attitude by Tehran since 9/11. Iranian officials claim they have "expelled or repatriated" large numbers of bin Laden followers, and last Saturday the country's intelligence chief, Ali Yunesi, announced new arrests. Yet other Qaeda suspects—like bin Laden's son Saad and Saif Al-Adel, once Al Qaeda's security chief, along with eight others—are believed to still be in Iran, possibly under some kind of protective custody to be used as leverage in future U.S.-Iran talks.
—indicates otherwise; probably one reason this White House isn't beating the war drums against Iran.
Except that they financed and aided a terrorist organization that was the avowed enemy of the United States of America.

—so did elements of Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, and its military:
Red Herring. There is no celestial law that states that the United States is bound to treat all situations with the same rote responses. Pakistan’s situation is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from that in Iran, meaning our options – and the consequences of those options – vary greatly. But then, you already know this, and are merely trying to buy time before your argument goes entirely down the tubes.
NOT a Red Herring, but rather YOUR double-standard. The issue of whether or not the mere fact of support for terror organisations constitutes sufficent grounds for war is not bound by what the options may be. Four U.S. administrations, including the present one, clearly do not consider it so and neither does any country. Even Israel, which faces a far more imminent threat from terrorist operations than we ever will. And your latest empty blusterings impress me not.
It’s also quite unusual that Iran was capable of exercising such strict control over the terrorist groups in your quote, but has been utterly unwilling to call to heel its own Jerusalem Force at the same time. Curiouser and curiouser.
Except the Jerusalem Force are the ones who engage in terror support and not the central Iranian government, and operationally is similar to the CIA's manipulation and support of its proxy armies in the 70s and 80s —much of which occurred with no governmental oversight or control of any sort.
Furthermore, as the Taliban employed Al-Qaeda as fighters against the insurgency of the Northern Alliance, it can be said to an extent that Osama binLaden's organisation were acting in the capacity of the Taliban's security forces.
And, as elements of the Iranian armed forces employed al-Qaeda as proxies, it can be said to an extent that Osama bin Laden’s organization were acting in the capacity of Iran’s guns-for-hire – a charge especially damning since Iran has not so much as attempted to challenge the Jerusalem Force’s near-free reign when it comes to terrorist connections.
Cute but no-soap. There is a very obvious difference between Al-Qaeda's independent operation in Afganistan, taking place on a far larger scale than any undertaking in cooperation with the Jerusalem Force and in clear partnership with the Taliban who relied upon them as their main security force against the Northern Alliance, and its activities in connection with the Jerusalem Force, of which the extent is still uncertain and which do not have any connection to 9-11.
From the report on the 9-11 Commission's findings. You have no argument.
Findings which do not at all state what you are attempting to prove, moron. It is you who have no argument.
Oh really:

Linky
excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.

One White House official called the report “confusing” on this point. However, another U.S. official said the general understanding of the U.S. intelligence community is that Iran was specifically seeking to assist “extremist jihadi” or “Afghan Arabs” traveling to and from the Afghan camps.

Another major captured Al Qaeda operative, Tawfiq bin Attash, also known as "Khallad," is cited in the report as telling interrogators that Iranian security services had reached out to bin Laden after the bombing of the USS Cole in October 2000 and proposed a strengthening of their relationship. But bin Laden, according to the 9/11 report, rejected the overture for fear of alienating his Sunni Muslim base in Saudi Arabia.

The new evidence about Iran cited in the 9/11 report builds on findings contained in an interim staff report which challenged the long-held idea among many U.S. intelligence analysts that bin Laden’s Sunni Muslim populated terrorist group would shy away from collaboration with Shiite Muslim terror groups like Hizbullah that are associated with Iran.

In fact, the interim report found that in the mid-1990’s, “Bin Laden’s representatives and Iranian officials had discussed putting aside Shia-Sunni divisions to cooperate against the common enemy. A small group of al Qaeda operatives subsequently traveled to Iran and Hizbullah camps in Lebanon for training in explosives, intelligence and security. Bin Laden reportedly showed particular interest in Hizbullah’s truck bombing tactics in Lebanon in 1983 that had killed 241 U.S. Marines.”

Perhaps most surprisingly, the panel found what it called “strong but indirect” evidence that bin Laden’s organization played a role in the 1996 bombing of a U.S. Air Force housing complex at Khobar Towers in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, an attack that killed 19 Americans injured 372 others. That attack had been previously blamed by U.S. officials on a Saudi Shia Hizbullah group that was receiving direct assistance from Iran.

But the 9/11 panel noted that there were reports in the months before the attack that bin Laden was seeking to facilitate a shipment of explosives to Saudi Arabia. On the day of the attack, the interim staff report said, “Bin Laden was congratulated by other members of the Islamic Army.”
Restoring the context, I don't see anything in that article which supports the alleged Iran/Al-Qaeda Grand Alliance™ you seem to be seeing all over the place. Indeed, Osama binLaden appears to have had his own political reasons for restricting ties between his organisation and the Iranians.
It is only you who are dodging the central question – which is one of the essence of Iran’s intentions vis-à-vis the United States, not of George Bush’s complicity in intelligence failures. But we know this is very hard for you.
Their intent was to deceive the United States —that is the only certain statement about the intent of the Iranian disinformation campaign that has any credibility. The idea that it could lead us into war is the notion that is ludicrous on its face.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Comical Axi wrote:You argued that false information can never be responsible for death or destruction. You were proven wrong. Wanking about how because Nation A was unable to punish Nation B for specific acts does not a precedent establish.
I'd ask if you're insane, but that's become patently obvious. Exactly how was I "proven wrong"? Your idiotic "false information to the police" false analogies? Your simple declaration that I'm wrong? Your patently dishonest rewording of the argument to try to make it fit with your idiotic false analogies? You have yet to demonstrate that one nation's disinformation can result in the loss of the lives or assets of nationals of another country in and of itself and you STILL cannot do so. Because no such example exists. You've been challenged repeatedly to provide examples in history of one nation "being led into war" by another nation's disinformation efforts to back your moronic contention. Again, no such example exists.

However, let's try using one of your favourite sources, shall we:

Linky
Disinformation.com wrote:dis·in·for·ma·tion

n.

1. Deliberately misleading information announced publicly or leaked by a government or especially by an intelligence agency in order to influence public opinion or the government in another nation: “He would be the unconscious channel for a piece of disinformation aimed at another country's intelligence service” (Ken Follett).

2. Dissemination of such misleading information.
Obvious and nothing I'll dispute, but oddly there's nothing in that definition which says "act of war" in any sense.

Let's try the thesaurus, shall we:
Thesaurus.reference.com wrote:3 entries found for disinformation.
Entry: deception
Function: noun
Definition: misleading
Synonyms: bamboozlement, beguilement, betrayal, blarney, boondoggle, cheat, circumvention, cozenage, craftiness, cunning, deceit, deceitfulness, deceptiveness, defraudation, dirt, disinformation, dissimulation, double-dealing, duplicity, equivocation, falsehood, flimflam, fraud, fraudulence, guile, gyp, hokum, hypocrisy, imposition, insincerity, juggling, legerdemain, lying, mendacity, pretense, prevarication, snow job, sophism, treachery, treason, trickery, trickiness, trumpery, untruth
Antonyms: candidness, honesty, integrity, openness
Concept: lying
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: lie
Function: noun
Definition: untruth
Synonyms: aspersion, backbiting, calumniation, calumny, complete distortion of the facts, corker, deceit, deception, defamation, detraction, dishonesty, disinformation, distortion, evasion, fable, fabrication, falsehood, falseness, falsification, falsity, fib, fiction, fish story, forgery, fraudulence, guile, hyperbole, inaccuracy, invention, libel, mendacity, misrepresentation, misstatement, myth, obloquy, perjury, prevarication, revilement, reviling, slander, subterfuge, tale, tall story, terminological inexactitude, vilification, white lie, whopper
Concept: lying
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: propaganda
Function: noun
Definition: information
Synonyms: advertising, agitprop, announcement, ballyhoo, brainwashing, disinformation, doctrine, evangelism, handout, hogwash, hype, implantation, inculcation, indoctrination, newspeak, promotion, promulgation, proselytism, publication, publicity
Concept: information
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
How odd. The phrase "act of war" doesn't appear in any list of synonyms of the word "disinformation" either...

BTW, that is what we around here call "sarcasm". 8)
Iran’s activities were not counter-intelligence at all, but in fact intelligence activities. Iran was the active forces, not the reactive force in this situation.
Trying to redefine terms yet again, are you? Intelligence is the gathering of information, not planting of disinformation —which is the act of the active and not reactive force in any situation.
George Bush and questions of responsibility for domestic intelligence failures have NO FUCKING BEARING AT ALL on how we must read Iranian intentions as a result of their activities.
Except for the fact that disinformation in and of itself cannot result in one nation going to war against another. It has every bearing on the issue. It is your argument which has no bearing on anything whatsoever except for your increasingly desperate attempt to manufacture a war justification against Iran.
I've admitted no such thing, fucker.
Were you or were you not forced to admit that our response to Afghanistan defied precedent, you dishonest hatfucker?
Not at all, you lying piece of shit. A "special case" situation does not negate what constitutes the definitions for an act of war in every other case. And as the situation with Afganistan clearly fell into the right of any nation to undertake reprisial action against another for actions the offending nation is responsible for —and therefore fell right in line with international law— there is no violation of precedent involved. The Taliban facilitated the WTC strike and attempted to shelter the perpetrators from justice. Afganistan was directly complicit in the deaths of 3000 Americans, and as such was subject to U.S. retaliation in accordance with Ch. 7.51 of the UN Charter.

Try again.
Russia’s involvement is no guarantee of transparency in Iran, retard. In fact, considering Russia’s record in Iraq, it’s actually a negative.
Except Russia is not the only one involved but also the IAEA —you remember, the people who made a hash of George Bush's argument that Iraq had nukes. It is also certainly in Russia's own self-interest that Iran not gain the bomb.
The bulk of Iran's population are presently apathetic about the Islamic Revolution and have no particular love for the mullahs. That will change in an instant if there is an American attack; they won't love the mullahs but they will rally around their own flag, and any impulse for reform will be set back a decade at least. Which is also a consideration even in this White House:
Then the White House has made an incorrect assessment, considering that the reform movements are nowhere near a decade from seizing power. If anything, the central government’s control over Iranian politics has only increased in the recent past.
Which negates the argument how, exactly? Or is it that the only time the White House is correct in its assessments is when it's making the case for war?

Oh, and BTW, didn't you say this a couple of weeks ago:
Comical Axi wrote:Iran is reforming, but they’re also an unrepentant state sponsor of terrorism
I believe Plekhanov called you to task for that self-contradiction then.
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Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Comical Axi wrote:If Special Plans was going to search for new intelligence on Iraq, the most obvious source was defectors with firsthand knowledge. The office inevitably turned to Ahmad Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress. The I.N.C., an umbrella organization for diverse groups opposed to Saddam, is constantly seeking out Iraqi defectors. The Special Plans Office developed a close working relationship with the I.N.C., and this strengthened its position in disputes with the C.I.A. and gave the Pentagon’s pro-war leadership added leverage in its constant disputes with the State Department. Special Plans also became a conduit for intelligence reports from the I.N.C. to officials in the White House.

Cooperation with the I.N.C. does not mean exclusive dealings with the I.N.C., genius.
Moving the Goalposts yet again.
There was a close personal bond, too, between Chalabi and Wolfowitz and Perle, dating back many years. Their relationship deepened after the Bush Administration took office, and Chalabi’s ties extended to others in the Administration, including Rumsfeld; Douglas Feith, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Policy; and I. Lewis Libby, Vice-President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. For years, Chalabi has had the support of prominent members of the American Enterprise Institute and other conservatives. Chalabi had some Democratic supporters, too, including James Woolsey, the former head of the C.I.A.

Immaterial.
VERY MATERIAL, lying fuck. You asked for evidence that Cheney relied upon the INC as his source, and it's getting shoved down your throat.
With the Pentagon’s support, Chalabi’s group worked to put defectors with compelling stories in touch with reporters in the United States and Europe. The resulting articles had dramatic accounts of advances in weapons of mass destruction or told of ties to terrorist groups. In some cases, these stories were disputed in analyses by the C.I.A. Misstatements and inconsistencies in I.N.C. defector accounts were also discovered after the final series of U.N. weapons inspections, which ended a few days before the American assault. Dr. Glen Rangwala, a lecturer in political science at Cambridge University, compiled and examined the information that had been made public and concluded that the U.N. inspections had failed to find evidence to support the defectors’ claims.

For the thirtieth time: prove that the I.N.C. statements were repackaged without additional corroboration from any other source, not that the I.N.C. itself was later questioned.
That's desperate of you. Exactly how many ways are you going to find to deny inconvenient evidence?
A former Bush Administration intelligence official recalled a case in which Chalabi’s group, working with the Pentagon, produced a defector from Iraq who was interviewed overseas by an agent from the D.I.A. The agent relied on an interpreter supplied by Chalabi’s people. Last summer, the D.I.A. report, which was classified, was leaked. In a detailed account, the London Times described how the defector had trained with Al Qaeda terrorists in the late nineteen-nineties at secret camps in Iraq, how the Iraqis received instructions in the use of chemical and biological weapons, and how the defector was given a new identity and relocated. A month later, however, a team of C.I.A. agents went to interview the man with their own interpreter. “He says, ‘No, that’s not what I said,’” the former intelligence official told me. “He said, ‘I worked at a fedayeen camp; it wasn’t Al Qaeda.’ He never saw any chemical or biological training.” Afterward, the former official said, “the C.I.A. sent out a piece of paper saying that this information was incorrect. They put it in writing.” But the C.I.A. rebuttal, like the original report, was classified. “I remember wondering whether this one would leak and correct the earlier, invalid leak. Of course, it didn’t.”

That’s not the Bush administration’s mistake, but the Defense Intelligence Agency’s.
Except you dishonestly leave this bit out:

Linky
excerpt:

The rising influence of the Office of Special Plans has been accompanied by a decline in the influence of the C.I.A. and the D.I.A. One internal Pentagon memorandum went so far as to suggest that terrorism experts in the government and outside it had deliberately “downplayed or sought to disprove” the link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. “For many years, there has been a bias in the intelligence community” against defectors, the memorandum said. It urged that two analysts working with Shulsky be given the authority to “investigate linkages to Iraq” by having access to the “proper debriefing of key Iraqi defectors.”

A former C.I.A. task-force leader who is a consultant to the Bush Administration said that many analysts in the C.I.A. are convinced that the Chalabi group’s defector reports on weapons of mass destruction and Al Qaeda have produced little of value, but said that the agency “is not fighting it.” He said that the D.I.A. had studied the information as well. “Even the D.I.A. can’t find any value in it.” (The Pentagon, asked for comment, denied that there had been disputes between the C.I.A. and Special Plans over the validity of intelligence.)

In interviews, former C.I.A. officers and analysts described the agency as increasingly demoralized. “George knows he’s being beaten up,” one former officer said of George Tenet, the C.I.A. director. “And his analysts are terrified. George used to protect his people, but he’s been forced to do things their way.” Because the C.I.A.’s analysts are now on the defensive, “they write reports justifying their intelligence rather than saying what’s going on. The Defense Department and the Office of the Vice-President write their own pieces, based on their own ideology. We collect so much stuff that you can find anything you want.”
—to try to alter the context. You'll just do anything to avoid conceding the point.
More than a year’s worth of increasingly bitter debate over the value and integrity of the Special Plans intelligence came to a halt in March, when President Bush authorized the war against Iraq. After a few weeks of fighting, Saddam Hussein’s regime collapsed, leaving American forces to declare victory against a backdrop of disorder and uncertainty about the country’s future. Ahmad Chalabi and the I.N.C. continued to provoke fights within the Bush Administration. The Pentagon flew Chalabi and hundreds of his supporters, heavily armed, into Iraq, amid tight security, over angry objections from the State Department. Chalabi is now establishing himself in Baghdad. His advocates in the Pentagon point out that he is not only a Shiite, like the majority of Iraqis, but also, as one scholar put it, “a completely Westernized businessman” (he emigrated to England with his parents in 1958, when he was a boy), which is one reason the State Department doubts whether he can gain support among Iraqis.

Chalabi’s biography is immaterial.
Which negates the evidence how, exactly?
Moreover, the agents said the Office of Special Plans routinely rewrote the CIA's intelligence estimates on Iraq's weapons programs, removing caveats such as "likely," "probably" and "may" as a way of depicting the country as an imminent threat. The agents would not identify the names of the individuals at the Office of Special Plans who were responsible for providing the White House with the wrong intelligence. But, the agents said, the intelligence gathered by the committee sometimes went directly to the White House, Cheney's office and to Rice without first being vetted by the CIA.

In cases where the CIA's intelligence wasn't rewritten the Office of Special Plans provided the White House with questionable intelligence it gathered from Iraqi exiles from the Iraqi National Congress, a group headed by Ahmad Chalabi, a person whom the CIA has publicly said is unreliable, the CIA agents said.


Providing the I.N.C.’s reports to intelligence agencies is not issuing public statements of their truth.
No, just when Dick Cheney says "We know with certainty" as a preface to his verbatim-regurgitation of INC bullshit. Or will I really have to dig up Cheney's Meet The Press quotes for you yet again?
Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of CIA counter-terrorist operations, said he has spoken to a number of working intelligence officers who blame the Pentagon for playing up "fraudulent" intelligence, "a lot of it sourced from the Iraqi National Congress of Ahmad Chalabi."

“A lot of it,” not all of it. Big difference.
Like that between a piece of gnatshit and a grain of pepper. You have no argument.
Not surprisingly, perhaps, it turns out that the same people are responsible for both. According to current and former US intelligence analysts and government officials, the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans funneled information, unchallenged, from Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress (INC) to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, who in turn passed it on to the White House, suggesting that Iraqis would welcome the American invaders. The Office of Special Plans is led by Abram Shulsky, a hawkish neoconservative ideologue who got his start in politics working alongside Elliott Abrams in Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson's office in the 1970s. It was set up in fall 2001 as a two-man shop, but it burgeoned into an eighteen-member nerve center of the Pentagon's effort to distort intelligence about Iraq's WMDs and terrorist connections. A great deal of the bad information produced by Shulsky's office, which found its way into speeches by Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush, came from Chalabi's INC. Since the INC itself was sustained by its neocon allies in Washington, including the shadow "Central Command" at the American Enterprise Institute, it stands as perhaps the ultimate example of circular reasoning.

Not all. I win.
Excuse me, but BWAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA You are so fucking pathetic, trying desperately to find any exception which lets you off the hook. Take your empty bluster and shove it up your ass.
Funneling information is not issuing information as fact, Deegan. Which means that, as of yet, you’ve been utterly unable to substantiate your earlier remarks.
Words don't exist to describe your stupidity, Kast. The ENTIRE case for war was based upon OSP propaganda stated and restated by George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Condoleeza Rice as FACT. It was incorporated into Bush's 2003 State Of The Union speech. Am I really going to have to quote that back to you as well?
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Comical Axi wrote:
And real world examples such as the SS, the NKVD, and the Revolutionary Guard support mine. Eat it.
The SS are always discussed in reference to the German Army, moron. Only you will be eating anything tonight.
You REALLY are going to attempt to dispute World War II history and the known facts of the Nazi state and its organisation:

The SS
excerpt:

The sweeping National Socialist program and the measures they were prepared to use and did use, could be fully accomplished neither through the machinery of the government nor of the Party. Things had to be done for which no agency of government and no political party even the Nazi Party, would openly take full responsibility. A specialized type of-apparatus was needed - - an apparatus which was to some extent connected with the government and given official support, but which, at the same time, could maintain a quasi-independent status so that all its acts could be attributed neither to the government nor to the Party as a whole. The SS was that apparatus.
And:

German page
excerpt (translated from German):

With the structure of the security agency (SD) under pure hard Heydrich as a SS subsection for the monitoring of opposing organizations and internal-party opposition the SS was assigned to a "party police" within the NSDAP starting from 1931 the role. Under the password "our honour is called loyalty" tried the SS to be characterised by an unconditional loyalty to Hitler. This led it after the seizure of power of the national socialists 1933 to substantial differences with the superordinate SA under Ernst Roehm , who questioned the Gefolgschaft from disappointment about the process of the "National Socialist revolution" in relation to the LV regime substantially. On operation Himmlers collected the security agency of the SS load material against the guidance of the SA regarded as competition an allegedly planned " Roehm roehm-Putsch " used Hitler and the SS at the end of of June 1934 for the murder of the entire SA guidance. Subsequently, Hitler revalued the SS to the independent, it directly subordinated arrangement of the NSDAP. At the same time the SS took over the however competence for all concentration camps (KZ) in the German Reich, which had up to then still often confessed under control of the SA. The guard of the camps was incumbent on now the SS Totenkopfverbaenden under the "inspector of the concentration camps and leader of the SS Wachverbaende", Theodor Eicke (1892-1943). With the combat support force (VT) the SS possessed starting from autumn 1934 besides several thousands men a comprehensive kasernierten combat force, which formed the core of the later weapon S together with the dead head federations.

Himmler completed the power-politics ascent of the SS as well as the gradual assumption of the polizeigewalt from the jurisdiction of the countries on 17 June 1936 with its appointment as the "realm leader SS and boss of the German police". Merged with the police also on lower levels in personnel unions closely, the SS had become the most important power instrument of Hitler. Yardstick of their acting were not law standards, but alone the "will of the leader".
An almost complete monitoring of the population by the SD and the secret state police (Gestapo) as well as an inconsiderate pursuit actual or alleged regime opponents coined/shaped each right-national control the extracted LV state. Itself the SS was quite conscious of their lifted out powerful position thereby: Its weekly paper "the black corps" applied within the coordinated press as only "oppositionals newspaper", which did not shrink from itself, to criticize bad states in the NSDAP and in the LV regime publicly.
And:

Linky
SS: "Schutzstaffel"/"Protection Squad":
A paramilitary organization within the Nazi Party that provided Hitler's bodyguard, security forces including the Gestapo, concentration camp guards, its own business concerns, and a corp of combat troops (the "Waffen-SS"); in 1944 the Waffen-SS was 950,000 men strong.

It was founded in 1925 as a protection squad for Adolf Hitler. It was initially a subsidiary organization of the SA ("Sturmabteilung"/"Storm Troopers"). From 1929 Heinrich Himmler (1900-1945) as "Reichsführer-SS" was its head.
In 1934, following the so-called Röhm putsch (Erst Röhm (1887-1934) German soldier, who organized (1921-1934) Hitler's storm troopers; murdered on Hitler's orders). Hitler made it an independent organization. In 1936 Heinrich Himmler was made "Reichsführer SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei"/ Reichsführer SS and Head of German Police". Through this increase in Himmer's power the SS became the most powerful organization within Nazi German.

The ss, including its subsidiary organizations, was declared a criminal organization by the Nuremberg Trials.
The SS was independent of all civil and military authority, was always referred to seperately as its own military organisation (Waffen SS, SS Panzer, Einsatzgruppen) and had its own rank structure which didn't correspond with the Wehrmacht. The distinction was always made by Allied commanders. Only an utter imbecile argues against these facts.
We're talking about the issue of whether there was official Iranian sanction for Al-Qaeda movement through their borders, or whether this is down to elements in the Revolutionary Guards acting independently, or whether doubt exists of any special favours being accorded to Bin Laden's group.
Not at all. We’re talking about whether Iran’s general laxity in border control – overtly and intentionally designed to aid “jihadists” constitutes knowing support for al-Qaeda, and whether the Iranian government’s heretofore refusal and/or inability to challenge the Revolutionary Guards represents an imminent danger, and/or conscious and specific support.
This says otherwise:

Linky
excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.
—as it appears I'll have to keep reminding you.
You’ve been unable to deny any of those charges effectively, idiot. Your entire argument consists of wanking about hypothetical discussions mentioned in passing by European diplomats and a false interpretation of reports that say that the central government in Iran did not provide specific favors to al-Qaeda in particular.
This says otherwise:

Linky
excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.
—as it appears I'll have to keep reminding you.
It means that unlike with yourself, sanity appears to be the order of the day in this White House for a change, as well as a recognition of reality. Nice little Style Over Substance Fallacy, BTW, but another poor dodge of the issue at hand.
We’ve already discussed why the administration is wrong on this issue, beginning with Iran’s unwillingness to offer more than token change up to public scrutiny, and ending with their recent intelligence forrays and lack of control over the Revolutionary Guards.]
Sounds like we're discussing why this White House is suddenly "wrong" now that it disagrees with you that war is always the sole option as well as your headlong flight from evidence inconvenient to you.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Comical Axi wrote:
The point is that rapproachment has its beginnings in exchanges such as this —such as the ping-pong exhibitions between the U.S. and China in the early 70s. You just totally and deliberately miss the point.
If Iranian support for terrorism is rapproachment, what’s open friendship?
Man of Straw. At no point have I characterised Iran's actions as friendship, nor have I argued against their involvement with terrorism. YOU are the one construcing the false dilemma which says that either diplomacy or hostility is the nature of the U.S./Iran relationship.
Yes and unlike you, I can actually comprehend its meaning.
So now “protective custody” means that they’re being interrogated and sent to the U.S., hm?
I know you think you're being clever, but as I've never argued anything even remotely like the strawman you've put forth, we'll just catalogue this along with the rest of your lies and idiocies spewed in this tedious thread.
Wrong, asshole. Grenada was within the context of international law —military action to rescue nationals under threat of immediate danger:
And since al-Qaeda is planning to attack American targets and citizens, and Iran supports them, Iran is aiding and abetting an immediate danger.
This:
9-11 Commission Staff Report n.15 wrote:excerpt:

Al Qaeda today
Since the September 11 attacks and the defeat of the Taliban, al Qaeda’s funding has decreased significantly. The arrests or deaths of several important financial facilitators have decreased the amount of money al Qaeda has raised and increased the costs and difficulty of raising and moving that money. Some entirely corrupt charities are now out of business, with many of their principals killed or captured, although some charities may still be providing support to al Qaeda. Moreover, it appears that the al Qaeda attacks within Saudi Arabia in May and November of 2003 have reduced—perhaps drastically— al Qaeda’s ability to raise funds from Saudi sources. Both an increase in Saudi enforcement and a more negative perception of al Qaeda by potential donors have cut its income.

At the same time, al Qaeda’s expenditures have decreased as well, largely because it no longer provides substantial funding to the Taliban or runs a network of training camps in Afghanistan. Despite the apparent reduction in overall funding, it remains relatively easy for al Qaeda to find the relatively small sums required to fund terrorist operations. Prior to 9/11, al Qaeda was a centralized organization which used Afghanistan as a war room to strategize, plan attacks, and dispatch operatives worldwide. Bin Ladin approved all al Qaeda operations, often selecting the targets and operatives. After al Qaeda lost Afghanistan after 9/11, it fundamentally changed. The organization is far more decentralized. Bin Ladin’s seclusion forced operational commanders and cell leaders to assume greater authority; they are now making the command decisions previously made by him.

Bin Ladin continues to inspire many of the operatives he trained and dispersed, as well as smaller Islamic extremist groups and individual fighters who share his ideology. As a result, al Qaeda today is more a loose collection of regional networks with a greatly weakened central organization. It pushes these networks to carry out attacks, and assists them by providing guidance, funding, and training in skills such as bomb-making or urban combat.
—says you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Provide evidence that U.S. intelligence is tracking an actual Al-Qaeda plot for another strike in the U.S. and that Iran is or will be involved. EVIDENCE —not baseless assertion.
As for the present war, one illegal action does not negate the practise of international law. I also must point out at this juncture that in the "Our World Historical Gamble" thread, you were among those claiming that the invasion of Iraq was perfectly legal under an alleged blanket authourisation granted under UNSCR 1441. That is of course when you weren't aping Mr. Hitler. As always, your argument shifts with the breeze.
Actually, if we use your argument wherein action always trumps philosophy by providing a historical example, then I still win.
By imagining that a parallel to wars of aggression somehow "proves" your point? No, I don't think so.
But then, bombing Iran would be perfectly legal, considering their crimes and active negligence.
Um, no it wouldn't, since Iran hasn't actually committed a direct act of war, nor are Americans directly engangered, nor does credible evidence for Iranian complicity in actions committed by Al-Qaeda yet exist, nor can a disinformation operation be characterised as an act of war, no matter how many sophistries you spew to try to make it so, nor is general sponsorship of terrorism considered sufficent provocation to warrant a military response.
Cute but irrelevant.
Absolutely relevant, since we intervened beyond protecting American citizens, moron.
By whose declaration? Yours? The danger to Americans was the driver behind the action, asswipe, not whatever the Cubans were doing or even the military coup in and of itself.
But according to you, the Tehran government is in full control.
Strawman —especially as the articles I've cited say no such thing.
That is prima facie evidence of support for the Jerusalem Force’s activities, because it could technically stop “rogue” elements at any time, according to your characterization.
And my arguments and the evidence I've cited to back them say this... where, exactly?
Um nope —you STILL try to duck the fact that Iran is demonstrably not under threat of a military coup, and have failed to provide evidence to the contrary beyond your endless yammerings.
Um nope – this is you STILL trying to convince the world that a nation is only not in complete control of its territories when it is about to collapse completely. Go tell that to the Russians. Or Iraq under Saddam.
Saddam Hussein's regime wasn't in danger of collapse because of the Kurdish insurgency. The Soviet Union dissolved in a peaceful secession after its Supreme Soviet voted itself out of existence to make way for the CIS provisional government. Once more, your supposed "examples" totally miss the mark.

As that has been your entire approach to this debate for the last four pages now, when have you not been repeating the same non-arguments?
You’ve already destroyed your own approach. “Special exemptions” my ass.
And which of the many voices in your head is telling you that?
No, I've raised it because it contradicts your picture of Iran as unstable and facing revolutionary threat, your argument that general support for terrorism argues a war justification, and of course also exposes your double-standard.
Unless Iran is unstable, it is a state sponsor of al-Qaeda.
A conclusion disputed by the CIA's own analysis.
Understand that unless it is considered to be unable to exercise control over its own military – which it evidently is considered not to be able to do -, it is supporting terrorism through the same kind of inaction as was once the case in Afghanistan.
This says otherwise:

Linky
excerpt:

Bush administration officials emphasized today that the 9/11 report also included contradictory information that undercut the idea of a strong relationship between Iran and Al Qaeda-and even cast some doubt on the conclusion that the Iranians were providing special favors for bin Laden’s organization.

In interviews with U.S. interrogators, two high-level Al Qaeda detainees—September 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi bin al-Shibh—confirmed that some of the 9/11 hijackers had transited through Iran on their way to and from the Afghan training camps, the report says, according to knowledgable sources. But the two Al Qaeda captives insisted the hijackers did so mainly to take advantage of a general Iranian practice of not stamping "Saudi passports"—indicating that the Iranian policy may have been cast more broadly than just Al Qaeda members.
—as it appears I'll have to keep reminding you.
Not to mention that not every justification for war MUST be acted upon, idiot.
No, just the ones which are of such a serious and/or destructive nature that diplomacy is no longer a viable option under any definition.
There goes your last hope.
That you'll present anything remotely akin to an honest or sane argument? Gave up on that three pages ago, actually.
I certainly have not, liar. I clearly stated that regional terrorism —which includes those groups supported by Iranian elements— constitutes a security danger on that level. I have not argued against defending against terrorist threats nor have denied Iranian involvement with Hizbollah, HAMAS, or Al-Qaeda. I'd challenge you to produce an actual text quote from me that says otherwise, but I know you can't and will try to bullshit your way out of admitting yet another of your patently obvious falsehoods.
You argue that we cannot fairly punish Iran for their support for terrorism because it isn’t a clear and present danger to the United States. You did it in the first statement of your last post.
A regional security danger is not the same thing as "a clear and present danger to the United States", or are you simply too fucking dense to recognise the concept of degree? And as we have not only not attacked Iran simply for its support for Hizbollah, HAMAS, and other terror groups but actually secretly traded arms with Iran for hostages taken by those groups in the 80s, this is a very clear indicator that general support for terrorism is not considered "a clear and present danger" in and of itself.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
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People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
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Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Al-Qaeda haven't the capability they possessed before 9-11, and they can "strive" to do a thing, but without the actual capacity to do it, their strivings and desires in that direction are meaningless.
Jesus Christ. You’ve got more waffles than a House of Pancakes. First, Iran forfeited nothing in your eyes in being unable to curb supporters of terrorism within its borders. Then, Iran was suddenly complete master of its own domain, meaning that nothing could possibly go on without Tehran’s prior knowledge and either approval or conscious inaction. And finally, Iran isn’t guilty of anything no matter what is actually the case, because the terrorists that elements of its military supports are apparently toothless anyway. There’s a name for this kind of behavior, isn’t there? You call it Changing the Goal Posts, if memory serves me right.

As for al-Qaeda’s apparent reduction in striking capability, you’d best notify Central Command, because our troops in Iraq would doubtless be much obliged for your new, late-breaking reading on the situation there, as would be Tom Ridge and the Department of Homeland Security. Somebody, it seems, hasn’t told them of our smashing victory over bin Laden and Co. and about how it’s okay to let down our guard when it comes to their supporters, because the threat has been sufficiently reduced. But wait … the 9/11 Commission didn’t recommend a pull-back or a let-up or leniency with bin-Laden’s supporters, now did it? No, it didn’t. You’re the only one raving about that kind of ridiculousness.
not only raises doubts about whether there is any Iranian/Al-Qaeda cooperation at present but indicates that the mullahs are holding out for the right deal to sell Al-Qaeda out.
You do realize that Iran can be considered a conscious accessory to al-Qaeda’s activities through inaction against a general threat even without contributing to a specific joint project or pursuing an overt relationship, correct?

Not to mention that deal-making should always be a last-resort. We don’t need to run the risk of yet another debacle analogous to that in North Korea, where Tehran begins skimping on its half-hearted commitments any time it suddenly feels pangs of longing for a new golden toilet. Technically, if what you say is true, they should be combating terrorism with renewed vigor already. But, as the continued unmolested existence of the Jerusalem Force shows us, they’ve clearly found excuses to avoid doing just that.
The only legitimate grounds for preemptive military action is when solid intel of an imminent attack or the active preparations for an imminent attack are found to be undeway and no other option is open. It does not legitimise any action against anyone anywhere at any time on mere suspicion with no factual support behind it.
So support of al-Qaeda by some group such as the Revolutionary Guards is acceptable, then, regardless of Iran’s will-full inaction, just so long as we don’t know about the next big attack? Is that how it works in Deegan’s Fantasy World?
An argument which applied equally well to Pakistan yet was insufficent as grounds for action against that nation, and one which even this White House isn't going to blow its remaining shreds of credibility on.
Untrue. We never planned a military action against Pakistan in the first place. This was not owing to a lack of rationale for war, but rather an assessment on our part that Pakistan posed unique problems as a wartime enemy, not least of which were those involving its nuclear arsenal.

As for the White House? You can drop all hope of escape on an Appeal to Authority right now. You’ve always been the first to cry out when you think the Bush administration has dropped the ball. Now I’ll return the favor.
indicates otherwise; probably one reason this White House isn't beating the war drums against Iran.
This is not evidence of talks, but evidence of Iran’s hope that it might one day be able to use its al-Qaeda prisoners as bargaining tools in what would doubtless be a farcical round of discussions in which the United States would be called upon to ante up far too much to far too fundamentally dishonest and hostile a nation in return for minimal returns in the War on Terrorism.
NOT a Red Herring, but rather YOUR double-standard. The issue of whether or not the mere fact of support for terror organisations constitutes sufficent grounds for war is not bound by what the options may be.
Here’s a little hint: double standards only apply when different solutions are applied to the same problem. That is precisely why your continued attempts to derail our the debate by unnecessarily referencing the completely different situation in Pakistan are such bullshit.
Four U.S. administrations, including the present one, clearly do not consider it so and neither does any country. Even Israel, which faces a far more imminent threat from terrorist operations than we ever will. And your latest empty blusterings impress me not.
But we’re not talking about support for terrorist organizations that may or may not pose a security risk to the United States. We’re talking about a regime that is clearly supporting the Jerusalem Force – a known source of aid for al-Qaeda – by its will-full inaction, or a regime that is unable to, by itself, challenge an imminent danger to American national security interests.

And if Israel’s position on state sponsors of terrorism eludes you, I recommend anything on the subject of Lebanon after 1982.
Except the Jerusalem Force are the ones who engage in terror support and not the central Iranian government, and operationally is similar to the CIA's manipulation and support of its proxy armies in the 70s and 80s —much of which occurred with no governmental oversight or control of any sort.
And who was called to task for the CIA’s manipulative, under-the-table ventures during the 1980s? Could it be Ronald Reagan, the President of the United States, and Chief Executive of the central government? Why, yes! Yes, it could! The United States government was forced to rectify the situation and take action to end our involvement with activities such as IRAN-CONTRA and “the Activity,” as Col. North’s clandestine little group was known. Why is Iran, if we are to believe your constant yammering about its complete control over the Revolutionary Guard, not doing the same?
Cute but no-soap. There is a very obvious difference between Al-Qaeda's independent operation in Afganistan, taking place on a far larger scale than any undertaking in cooperation with the Jerusalem Force and in clear partnership with the Taliban who relied upon them as their main security force against the Northern Alliance, and its activities in connection with the Jerusalem Force, of which the extent is still uncertain and which do not have any connection to 9-11.
That one, obvious difference being that, in Afghanistan, our inaction led to the deaths of over three thousand people in Washington, New York, and Pennsylvania? So which is it, Deegan? The United States government was negligent not to punish Afghanistan when it had snippets of notice, or the United States government cannot be faulted for waiting until the hatchet dropped before waking to the problem? Allowing the terrorists to continue to profit from their relationship with Iran on the grounds that we don’t know what will come of it isn’t proper deference to international law. It’s the height of sick, self-defeating stupidity.
Restoring the context, I don't see anything in that article which supports the alleged Iran/Al-Qaeda Grand Alliance™ you seem to be seeing all over the place. Indeed, Osama binLaden appears to have had his own political reasons for restricting ties between his organisation and the Iranians.
I’ve already dealt with this in the earlier portion of my response. No need to reiterate.
Their intent was to deceive the United States —that is the only certain statement about the intent of the Iranian disinformation campaign that has any credibility. The idea that it could lead us into war is the notion that is ludicrous on its face.
Hardly. Their intent was hostile. They provided information they clearly hoped would reinforce the rationale for war in the White House and prevent possible deviation from that course. They were attempting to manipulate us into war. All of those are also certains tatements regarding the intent of the Iranian disinformation campaign, all of which are transparently true. The ideas that Iran’s activities were either not hostile or “run-of-the-mill” are the only ludicrous propositions on the table thus far.
I’d ask if you’re insane, but that’s become patently obvious. Exactly how was I “proven wrong”? Your idiotic “false information to the police” false analogies? Your simple declaration that I’m wrong? Your patently dishonest rewording of the argument to try to make it fit with your idiotic false analogies? You have yet to demonstrate that one nation’s disinformation can result in the loss of the lives or assets of nationals of another country in and of itself and you STILL cannot do so. Because no such example exists. You’ve been challenged repeatedly to provide examples in history of one nation “being led into war” by another nation’s disinformation efforts to back your moronic contention. Again, no such example exists.
A ruse in the course of a crime and a ruse in the course of an intelligence activity are not at all different things, idiot. Just as providing false information to the police is capable of setting into motion a dangerous chain of events based on one set of lies, false information provided to an opposing government is equally a liability. In the worst-case-scenario, a criminal provides information to the police, who then fumble the ball and declare it actionable, a series of events that results in the death of an officer on a raid. In the wake of that raid, there are not only shake-ups to remove incompetent officers on the police force, but also efforts to apprehend and potentially punish the false informant. Why would the procedure with nation-states be any different? Certainly not because you say so, which is all we have to go on right now.

As for examples, you’ve already dazzled us all by deciding that anything which does not suit your definitions are mere “exceptions to the rule,” not to be trifled with. And that means that the only person making foolish and arbitrary declarations based on nothing but hot air is you, Deegan.
Obvious and nothing I'll dispute, but oddly there's nothing in that definition which says "act of war" in any sense.
A dictionary definition is not the be-all and end-all for a complicated condition such as war, Deegan. Kindly go type in “attack” on the same site (Dictionary.com). I’m afraid that neither the Dictionary or Thesaurus options award the curious with the result of “act of war.” Nice try, though. I have to admit, your desperation at least drives you to creativity.
Trying to redefine terms yet again, are you? Intelligence is the gathering of information, not planting of disinformation —which is the act of the active and not reactive force in any situation.
The planting of disinformation is not counter-intelligence when there is no threat being deflected, moron. Counter-intelligence must be in opposition to the activities of another body or agency’s own attempts to effect or discover something. That was demonstrably not the case here.
Except for the fact that disinformation in and of itself cannot result in one nation going to war against another. It has every bearing on the issue. It is your argument which has no bearing on anything whatsoever except for your increasingly desperate attempt to manufacture a war justification against Iran.
You must substantiate your assertions, Deegan. Why, if the police prosecute somebody for murder when they provide false information that leads to a raid, do nations take some other path? Certainly your bullshit sophistries about how “since everyone does it, there’s a tacit understanding that nobody suffers retaliation” do not apply, since everybody knows that a crime is a crime no matter how often it is committed, and that a criminal’s ability to avoid or discourage punishment does not equate to innocence by any stretch of the imagination.
Not at all, you lying piece of shit. A "special case" situation does not negate what constitutes the definitions for an act of war in every other case. And as the situation with Afganistan clearly fell into the right of any nation to undertake reprisial action against another for actions the offending nation is responsible for —and therefore fell right in line with international law— there is no violation of precedent involved. The Taliban facilitated the WTC strike and attempted to shelter the perpetrators from justice. Afganistan was directly complicit in the deaths of 3000 Americans, and as such was subject to U.S. retaliation in accordance with Ch. 7.51 of the UN Charter.
Of course a “special case” changes precedent, you brain-dead moron. A situation does not suddenly mean nothing because the Great Deegan has had another mind fart.

Al-Qaeda is an organization of murderers who are actively seeking to do harm to the United States. When elements of the Iranian military aid al-Qaeda and then go purposely unpunished, that is a crime in support of a clear and present danger to the United States and its citizens. Iran is not suddenly exempt from punishment because there hasn’t yet been another attack on the scale of September 11th in which it is involved. If we waited for that to happen, we’d be criminally negligent. Thankfully, only you would cling to an argument as twisted as that.
Except Russia is not the only one involved but also the IAEA —you remember, the people who made a hash of George Bush's argument that Iraq had nukes. It is also certainly in Russia's own self-interest that Iran not gain the bomb.
The IAEA – the people who made a hash of our attempts to ensure that North Korea didn’t cheat on the Agreed Framework? :lol:

It was in Russia’s self-interest that Iraq not develop weapons of mass destruction. But I guess someone forgot to tell that to Vladimir Putin. Oops.
Which negates the argument how, exactly? Or is it that the only time the White House is correct in its assessments is when it's making the case for war?
It negates the argument because it belies your Appeal to Authority that “the White House knows better.”
I believe Plekhanov called you to task for that self-contradiction then.
Plekhanov did nothing of the sort. The fact of the matter is that Iran’s government is safe from any threat posed by left-wing radicals or grass-roots reformers, who are regularly excluded from high-level politics and pushed off the street by regime thugs.

But then, this whole argument has spun out of control. We’ve gone from something approaching rational debate (although it’s always a question with you) to something approaching an episode of the latest cop drama, in which I attempt to follow your latest mixture of lies and bullshit about why Iran’s support for terrorism either isn’t dangerous or isn’t illegal or isn’t conscious or isn’t our problem. This isn’t an exchange, it’s a circus. I should have known better when you started talking about how Afghanistan was “special” after realizing it didn’t fit your analysis of how the world worked. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about that anymore.
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Patrick Degan
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Time constraints as well as the danger of exceeding buffer-limits forces me to deal with this in stages:
Comical Axi wrote:Jesus Christ. You’ve got more waffles than a House of Pancakes. First, Iran forfeited nothing in your eyes in being unable to curb supporters of terrorism within its borders. Then, Iran was suddenly complete master of its own domain, meaning that nothing could possibly go on without Tehran’s prior knowledge and either approval or conscious inaction. And finally, Iran isn’t guilty of anything no matter what is actually the case, because the terrorists that elements of its military supports are apparently toothless anyway. There’s a name for this kind of behavior, isn’t there? You call it Changing the Goal Posts, if memory serves me right.
No, asshole, this is what we call Putting Up A Strawman. Or in your case, Strawmen. I know how difficult it is for you to acknowledge a little something called reality, but the situation is quite clear as it is complex: Iran's central government is not facing the threat of a military coup or revolutionary overthrow from its army. The Supreme Religious Council acts independently of the central government but is not about to overthrow it. The Jerusalem Force of the Revolutionary Guards provide support for terrorist organisations with no sanction from the central government. However, they dare not defy the Supreme Religious Council, which has never directly or indirectly backed any terrorist action of the scope or effect of the WTC strike, or any terrorist attack upon American soil. The mullahs may hate America but they aren't insane and will not back an action which will invite massive American retalitation. Furthermore, the case that Iran has accorded special favour to Al-Qaeda is far from clear, as the 9-11 Commission Report has stated. Iran is not Afganistan and has not acted as Al-Qaeda's war room according to evidence gathered to date unlike the clear alliance which did exist between Bin Laden's organisation and the Taliban. And nobody is saying that the terrorist organisations backed by the Jerusalem Force are "toothless", but they do not constitute a threat beyond regional security and are best dealt with on that scale instead of the wholly disproportionate resort to a general war.
As for al-Qaeda’s apparent reduction in striking capability, you’d best notify Central Command, because our troops in Iraq would doubtless be much obliged for your new, late-breaking reading on the situation there, as would be Tom Ridge and the Department of Homeland Security. Somebody, it seems, hasn’t told them of our smashing victory over bin Laden and Co. and about how it’s okay to let down our guard when it comes to their supporters, because the threat has been sufficiently reduced. But wait … the 9/11 Commission didn’t recommend a pull-back or a let-up or leniency with bin-Laden’s supporters, now did it? No, it didn’t. You’re the only one raving about that kind of ridiculousness.
It looks far more like you're the one who's raving. Nobody except you is babbling about anybody believing that Al-Qaeda has been totally smashed or that they aren't acting against our troops in Iraq. The crux of the matter is whether or not Al-Qaeda are at present capable of attempting another attack beyond the Middle East, and the indications are that with the loss of their Afgan base and the drying up of their sources of funding, along with the deaths and captures of many of their leadership, that Al-Qaeda is not capable of mounting another 9-11 style attack. Recognising this reality does not mean not hunting down the remainder of Bin Laden's organisation; yet another of the many arguments I've never made at any point in this increasingly tedious discussion, but you just can't resist putting up more and more of your Strawmen.
You do realize that Iran can be considered a conscious accessory to al-Qaeda’s activities through inaction against a general threat even without contributing to a specific joint project or pursuing an overt relationship, correct?
Except that is not the crux of the matter, imbecile. The question is whether or not Iran had any complicity with 9-11. They didn't. The next question is whether the case that Al-Qaeda were granted any particular favour over and above other jihadist elements can be made, and the issue is not at all clear on that score. So you can stop trying to build Iran into a far larger threat than the record indicates.
Not to mention that deal-making should always be a last-resort.
No, moron —WAR is supposed to be the last resort. Deal-making is a far less expensive proposition in both treasure and lives.
We don’t need to run the risk of yet another debacle analogous to that in North Korea, where Tehran begins skimping on its half-hearted commitments any time it suddenly feels pangs of longing for a new golden toilet.
Except Tehran has not been kicking IAEA inspectors out of the country and shows no evidence of pursuing a nuclear weapons programme. The North Korea problem is not yet beyond solution, but as yet while Pyongyang has boasted that they can make bombs, their boasts have yet to be backed by evidence of any actual nuclear test having been conducted. But bombing Iran is certainly going to push the North Korean situation beyond solution, or does that not even occur to you for a second?
Technically, if what you say is true, they should be combating terrorism with renewed vigor already. But, as the continued unmolested existence of the Jerusalem Force shows us, they’ve clearly found excuses to avoid doing just that.
Nobody is saying that Iran's record on terrorism isn't mixed. They've taken action against Al-Qaeda elements in the country but continue to support organisations such as HAMAS and Hizbollah. The question however is whether the scope of Iran's activities fall into the same category as Afganistan's had with its wholesale partnership with Al-Qaeda. Clearly they have not been, and the threats represented by HAMAS, Hizbollah, and the reduced Al-Qaeda are best dealt with through counterinsurgency warfare and counterintelligence operations and not a general war against Iran.
The only legitimate grounds for preemptive military action is when solid intel of an imminent attack or the active preparations for an imminent attack are found to be undeway and no other option is open. It does not legitimise any action against anyone anywhere at any time on mere suspicion with no factual support behind it.
So support of al-Qaeda by some group such as the Revolutionary Guards is acceptable, then, regardless of Iran’s will-full inaction, just so long as we don’t know about the next big attack? Is that how it works in Deegan’s Fantasy World?
No, fuckface —the way things work in real life is that military action against actual threats is what constitutes the wise course of action as well as the least politically-destructive course of action instead of blindly thrashing out against every imagined danger —the Way of things in Comical Axi's World of Galloping Paranoia.
We never planned a military action against Pakistan in the first place. This was not owing to a lack of rationale for war, but rather an assessment on our part that Pakistan posed unique problems as a wartime enemy, not least of which were those involving its nuclear arsenal.
Yes, the threat of the Mighty Pakistani Strategic Rocket Force. Naturally it had nothing to do with the fact that the last thing we need is to knock over the military government and further radicalise Pakistan's population, or further complicate general policy in the Middle East by attacking another Muslim country, or the fact that we quite simply could not hope to put down enough troops to pacify the country, or the fact that even with whatever support Al-Qaeda received from elements of Pakistan's ISI, it simply wasn't sufficent to constitute grounds justifying war by any rational definition of the situation.
As for the White House? You can drop all hope of escape on an Appeal to Authority right now. You’ve always been the first to cry out when you think the Bush administration has dropped the ball. Now I’ll return the favor.
I'm not engaging in any Appeal to Authority; my arguments stand on their own supports quite adequately. The point of mentioning the White House is to demonstrate that even they are less loony than you are.
indicates otherwise; probably one reason this White House isn't beating the war drums against Iran.
This is not evidence of talks, but evidence of Iran’s hope that it might one day be able to use its al-Qaeda prisoners as bargaining tools in what would doubtless be a farcical round of discussions in which the United States would be called upon to ante up far too much to far too fundamentally dishonest and hostile a nation in return for minimal returns in the War on Terrorism.
We've had to deal with dishonest nations before and have done so despite their alleged dishonesty. And unless you can verify the accuracy of your crystal ball, your assertions remain baseless and therefore quite meaningless.
NOT a Red Herring, but rather YOUR double-standard. The issue of whether or not the mere fact of support for terror organisations constitutes sufficent grounds for war is not bound by what the options may be.
Here’s a little hint: double standards only apply when different solutions are applied to the same problem. That is precisely why your continued attempts to derail our the debate by unnecessarily referencing the completely different situation in Pakistan are such bullshit.
And here's a little hint for you: the problem of Islamic radicalism is essentially the same problem be it in Iran or Pakistan, and you have not demonstrated why war is the optimal solution for the one but not the other —especially as Pakistan provided far more support for the Taliban and Al-Qaeda than Iran ever did, yet nowhere near the degree that Afganistan did.
Four U.S. administrations, including the present one, clearly do not consider it so and neither does any country. Even Israel, which faces a far more imminent threat from terrorist operations than we ever will. And your latest empty blusterings impress me not.
But we’re not talking about support for terrorist organizations that may or may not pose a security risk to the United States. We’re talking about a regime that is clearly supporting the Jerusalem Force – a known source of aid for al-Qaeda – by its will-full inaction, or a regime that is unable to, by itself, challenge an imminent danger to American national security interests.
No, we're talking about you trying desperately to manufacture an excuse for war where war is neither the optimal or the appropriate solution and certainly not on the basis of the evidence. Nor can you demonstrate imminent danger —which is evidence of a pending strike in the very short-term future— as opposed to simply equating the whole general threat of terrorism as "imminent danger".
And if Israel’s position on state sponsors of terrorism eludes you, I recommend anything on the subject of Lebanon after 1982.
Funny, but I read no history of Israel launcing attacks against such state-sponsors of terrorism as Syria, Iraq or Iran simply on the basis of support for terrorist activities. They invaded Lebanon, then were involved in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, then were forced out under weight of international pressure. But I don't read of Israel launching wars against Syria, Iraq, or Iran. Perhaps you can point out exactly when these additional wars for which there seems to be no historical record actually occurrred.
Except the Jerusalem Force are the ones who engage in terror support and not the central Iranian government, and operationally is similar to the CIA's manipulation and support of its proxy armies in the 70s and 80s —much of which occurred with no governmental oversight or control of any sort.
And who was called to task for the CIA’s manipulative, under-the-table ventures during the 1980s? Could it be Ronald Reagan, the President of the United States, and Chief Executive of the central government? Why, yes! Yes, it could!
Actually, it didn't. The Reagan Administration attempted to stonewall the investigation, and then St. Ronnie himself went up before the special prosecutor and said "I don't remember" 183 times, and George HW Bush pardoned the main Iran/Contra conspirators in December 1992 ahead of their being indicted. Remember seeing this New York Times frontpage:

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Guess not...
The United States government was forced to rectify the situation and take action to end our involvement with activities such as IRAN-CONTRA and “the Activity,” as Col. North’s clandestine little group was known.
Except Col. North's conviction was voided, and George HW Bush pardoned the main Iran/Contra conspirators in December 1992. But I guess that when The New York Times ran this:

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—Orson Welles was writing the news that week.
Why is Iran, if we are to believe your constant yammering about its complete control over the Revolutionary Guard, not doing the same?
You mean the way George HW Bush did? Oh that's right —he didn't. Instead, he handed out pardons as Christmas gifts;

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So much for accountability...

Part two forthcoming.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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