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Post by Durandal »

Stravo wrote:Where does it stop? The ones most directly affected by slavery and its aftermath are dead, these are several generations removed from that time and we're still paying for it? What about the American Indians? We WIPED THEM OUT, not just enslaved them and then brought them into our culture. We stole their land, slaughtered them and ruined their culture forever and then gave them reservations to live on in desert lands and other similar paradises. If anyone has a claim to compensation it should be them. The American Indians as a people and a culture are all but extinct. What about the immigrants that were brought over as indentured servants and were discrimanted against for decades until they were finally assimlated? You see the slippery slope/thorny issue here.
We wiped out black culture, as well. That's why the Nation of Islam used "X" for last names.

Like it or not, whites in America enjoy a massive advantage in job selection and admission to universities over blacks and hispanics. Affirmative Action's idea is based on simple statistics. In a given sample of applicants for a university, there are going to be fewer blacks than whites. So, assuming equal qualifications in this sample, a white student is more likely to get in if selected randomly. If you want to encourage racial harmony, you try to get people of different races together and interacting. That won't happen if the overwhelming majority of people in higher education and upper-level jobs are white.

Affirmative Action has a time and a place, and it should by no means be permanent. But it is a necessary evil for now. Without it, blacks will just continue to be marginalized on the socio-economic scale.
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Post by Stravo »

Durandal wrote:
Stravo wrote:Where does it stop? The ones most directly affected by slavery and its aftermath are dead, these are several generations removed from that time and we're still paying for it? What about the American Indians? We WIPED THEM OUT, not just enslaved them and then brought them into our culture. We stole their land, slaughtered them and ruined their culture forever and then gave them reservations to live on in desert lands and other similar paradises. If anyone has a claim to compensation it should be them. The American Indians as a people and a culture are all but extinct. What about the immigrants that were brought over as indentured servants and were discrimanted against for decades until they were finally assimlated? You see the slippery slope/thorny issue here.
We wiped out black culture, as well. That's why the Nation of Islam used "X" for last names.

Like it or not, whites in America enjoy a massive advantage in job selection and admission to universities over blacks and hispanics. Affirmative Action's idea is based on simple statistics. In a given sample of applicants for a university, there are going to be fewer blacks than whites. So, assuming equal qualifications in this sample, a white student is more likely to get in if selected randomly. If you want to encourage racial harmony, you try to get people of different races together and interacting. That won't happen if the overwhelming majority of people in higher education and upper-level jobs are white.

Affirmative Action has a time and a place, and it should by no means be permanent. But it is a necessary evil for now. Without it, blacks will just continue to be marginalized on the socio-economic scale.
This does not address the issue of overwhelming state interest. The argument that we are paying reparations for what was done long ago doesn't fly in a court of law, particualrly when imfringing on someone's rights. You have to show a compelling state interest for an action to infringe on someone's rights.

In the case of AA the compelling state interest is promoting diversity. As Anton Scalia asked in the deliberations of the case decided thsi week WHY is it a compelling state interest? Is it OK to deny a white kid an education, especailly a poor white kid a shot at a university degree to a lesser qualified student of a minority group. Are we really dealing with diversity when all anyone is looking at is a chart and not at the student itself. Quoutas are just as racist as someone denying a kid an education based on skin color.

When AA was abolished in a school in Califonia, Asians quickly shot up as the majority students there because of their grades. I think that AA fails miserbaly to actually rectify the sitaution which is TEACH these kids so that they are just as qualified as the white kids. Every other minority group and new wave of immgrant goes on to do well, their scores going up and soon they no longer need AA. But blacks have progressively conitnued to fill the welfare rolls and do poorly academically. AA does not answer the question WHY.

Is it fair for businesses that they have to hire someone less qualified to fill their quota? Is it fair that less qualified students are given this education over someone better suited for the position.

This is like the fish and fishpole situation.

AA is giving the minority kids the fish. Abolishing AA and getting to the nitty griity and fixing education for these minority kids is teaching them how to fish.

AA is the guilty white liberal response to an issue that goes FAR DEEPER than just filling racial quoatas. When you reduce these kids to quotas and staistics you do no one any favors and in many ways you are saying that aren't good enough to do it on their own.

AA is flawed very badly and people on both sides are suffering because of it. It was quite clear that the SC voted along idealogical lines and walked a fine tight rope in trying to keep everyone satisfied, especially when the pro AA people are flinging such nonsense as Clarence Thomas not being their type of black man. Excuse me if he doesn't fit the liberal mold of what a black man should be, someone that believes people should accomplish things on their own instead of having it handed to them.

Oh and in terms of time and place....when will it end? I think you will find that blacks will be very reluctant to give up any advantage that they can get and we get a sense of entitlement which this program should not be promoting.
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Post by Joe »

"Affirmative Action is not meant to help blacks because of the color of their skin, but because they deserve compensation for past and continuing injustices. Opponents may criticize the wisdom of how this compensation is meted out, but they cannot question the principle of compensatory damages, which enjoys a long tradition in our society. "
That is the intent of affirmative action, but the REALITY of affirmative action is undeniably discriminatory. Intent and reality can be two different things entirely.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Indians broke just as many treaties as the other side did and fought a brutal conflict against American citizens, people who scalp men alive and then get slaughtered for it I have no sympathy for. Few tribes even had a concept of landownership beyond however could control it by force. They lost as there own game and got killed by westerns rather then other tribes. Horrors.
Scalping was a tradition of British officers who in “savage” overseas territories would offer compensation for proof of a dead enemy – i.e. his scalp. The practice originated in fact with British bounties. It is reasonably certain that the French and Spanish both followed similar routines.
This does not address the issue of overwhelming state interest. The argument that we are paying reparations for what was done long ago doesn't fly in a court of law, particualrly when imfringing on someone's rights. You have to show a compelling state interest for an action to infringe on someone's rights.
Affirmative Action is not some form of pseudo-reparation. It is instead an effort to “balance the scales” between what should be two near-equal applicants, one of them being a minority. Despite its abuse at Michigan, there are several merits. (1) This country was in fact established by white, Christian males for white, Christian males. (2) Members of any majority are hired more readily than those of a minority. White males have statistically greater professional and vocational opportunities overall. Studies by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in fact discovered that résumés by men with popular or stereotypically “black” names were significantly less likely than those with stereotypical “white” names to receive a response. (3) Affirmative Action takes into account that of the above-mentioned equal applicants, the minority was most likely to have overcome the inferior social status and very probably economic hardship as well. Think of the whole system not so much as offering minorities superiority as equality.
In the case of AA the compelling state interest is promoting diversity. As Anton Scalia asked in the deliberations of the case decided thsi week WHY is it a compelling state interest? Is it OK to deny a white kid an education, especailly a poor white kid a shot at a university degree to a lesser qualified student of a minority group. Are we really dealing with diversity when all anyone is looking at is a chart and not at the student itself. Quoutas are just as racist as someone denying a kid an education based on skin color.
It is indeed a compelling state interest to promote diversity. The greater the number of minorities with access to higher education, the fewer the number statistically likely to remain or fall into poverty. Again, minorities have fewer professional or educational opportunities overall. And despite the supposed “evils” of Affirmative Action, I remind you that the up-and-coming trend of colleges and universities to function as businesses favors the wealthier majority. A white man is more likely to have the money necessary to turn down a large scholarship. That matters more, in fact, than an equal applicant’s minority status.

And keep in mind that this isn’t: “White kid with an ‘A’ loses admission to black kid with a ‘D’.” No, sir. This is – at worst: “White kid with an ‘A’ loses admission to black kid with a ‘B-’.” Most usually it’s, “White kid with an ‘A’ loses admission to black kid with a ‘B’.” Many people also seem to forget that colleges will forgive poorer grades for extra-circular activities or demonstrated aptitude in creative writing. Many of the AA “horror stories” are those about the white kid who feels cheated when his A+ doesn’t carry him into Harvard but he’s heard that the black kid in the other class got a ‘B+’ and yet still made it.
When AA was abolished in a school in Califonia, Asians quickly shot up as the majority students there because of their grades. I think that AA fails miserbaly to actually rectify the sitaution which is TEACH these kids so that they are just as qualified as the white kids. Every other minority group and new wave of immgrant goes on to do well, their scores going up and soon they no longer need AA. But blacks have progressively conitnued to fill the welfare rolls and do poorly academically. AA does not answer the question WHY.
I challenge the notion that AA creates a “hand-me” undercurrent among minorities. Both African-Americans and Latinos often have difficulty achieving parity with Caucasians.

And remember this of Asian students:

(1) A majority are “new immigrants” from countries usually more stable than those of Latin America. It means that many come over with greater quantities of money in hand, under less social or political duress, and with various traditions still in-hand.
(2) Many Asian immigrants originate on Taiwan, in India, Japan, or China, all of which are fairly stable. Of those, two countries (India and China) tend to discharge primarily middle-class emigrants to the United States. This means they’re coming with a bit of wealth in hand (in most cases).
(3) There is less a structure of opposition to Asians than to African-Americans. While both are discriminated against, the “root anger” at blacks remains most heavily-entrenched.

Point-blank: we need a program to redress racial disparities in the professional community and increasingly place minorities into the business world. Financial programs might help, but they’re less focused as they also deal with the majority Caucasian population – which is already assisted (as are minorities) by “blind admission” policies.
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Post by Durandal »

Stravo wrote:AA is giving the minority kids the fish. Abolishing AA and getting to the nitty griity and fixing education for these minority kids is teaching them how to fish.
And how do you propose we fix the education of minority kids? Education is a state-level matter. Affirmative Action is federal. If the federal government would get off its ass, tell those bitching about states' rights to shut up and federalize education standards and funding, then it'd be a different story. I'd much rather give preferential funding to poorer school districts composed of minorities than give minority kids preferential admission. After receiving an education equal to that of your average white kid, a black kid can blame no one but himself for not getting into the university of his choice.

However, as it stands, minorities are still heavily ghettoized into districts which receive shit for educational funding, and consequently they get a shitty education. Are you going to sit back and say, "Well that's too damn bad that he was born into that situation. Fuck him," especially when they're in that situation because of the majority?
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Post by kojikun »

Durandal wrote:And how do you propose we fix the education of minority kids? Education is a state-level matter. Affirmative Action is federal. If the federal government would get off its ass, tell those bitching about states' rights to shut up and federalize education standards and funding, then it'd be a different story.
You just answered your own question: Federal backing.
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kojikun wrote:
Durandal wrote:And how do you propose we fix the education of minority kids? Education is a state-level matter. Affirmative Action is federal. If the federal government would get off its ass, tell those bitching about states' rights to shut up and federalize education standards and funding, then it'd be a different story.
You just answered your own question: Federal backing.
Easier said that done. It'd be impossible to federalize education, because a federalized education would never have creationism as a part of the curriculum, and that'd piss off all the moron states out there, who would end up pissing and moaning about states' rights.
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Post by Joe »

Of course, then there's the fact that that pesky Constitution of ours says absolutely nothing about the federal government having anything to do with education (and implies quite heavily that it should be left to the states), but who gives a shit about that?
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Post by russellb6666 »

Durandal wrote:
kojikun wrote:
Durandal wrote:And how do you propose we fix the education of minority kids? Education is a state-level matter. Affirmative Action is federal. If the federal government would get off its ass, tell those bitching about states' rights to shut up and federalize education standards and funding, then it'd be a different story.
You just answered your own question: Federal backing.
Easier said that done. It'd be impossible to federalize education, because a federalized education would never have creationism as a part of the curriculum, and that'd piss off all the moron states out there, who would end up pissing and moaning about states' rights.
well you know what fuck the moron states if people can't get their heads out of the asses then to fuck with 'em people got more important things to do then to listen to some over bearing bible thumping fundie jackass bitch and moan about how the Federal Government isn't teaching their upside down and ass backwards view of everything so screw 'em
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Post by kojikun »

Is determining education and schooling a reserved power? Cause if it is the US government can amend the constitution to alter that. Or maybe finagle some shit. Amending the thing would be a bitch tho, because it would require a 2/3rd supermajority and ratified by 3/4ths "hyper" majority.
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Durran Korr wrote:Of course, then there's the fact that that pesky Constitution of ours says absolutely nothing about the federal government having anything to do with education (and implies quite heavily that it should be left to the states), but who gives a shit about that?
We don't necessarily have to develop federal education standards (I just think it'd be a good idea, but that was a red herring), but federal funding of education would be nice. For example, in Illinois, education is funded by property taxes, which has worked out horribly. The day education becomes federally funded (or even if the federal government puts forth guidelines of how to fund and where funding for education should come from in states), I'll stop supporting Affirmative Action and start supporting preferential funding for minority school districts.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Durandal wrote:
We wiped out black culture, as well. That's why the Nation of Islam used "X" for last names.
Is it just me, or does the idea of "Black culture" imply that all black people have the same cultural values??

Such a concept is, of course, bullshit. I don't think a native of South Africa has much in common with a native of Ghana, who in turn doesn't have much in common with a native of Ethiopia.
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Post by Hobot »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Durandal wrote:
We wiped out black culture, as well. That's why the Nation of Islam used "X" for last names.
Is it just me, or does the idea of "Black culture" imply that all black people have the same cultural values??
Yes, it's just you. Saying that black culture was wiped out implies that any unique culture they had has been destroyed. It does not suggest that they had one homgenous culture, in fact it doesn't say much about the nature of their culture other than to say it doesn't exist anymore.

Jeeze, you're so hyper-sensitive...
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Hobot wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Durandal wrote:
We wiped out black culture, as well. That's why the Nation of Islam used "X" for last names.
Is it just me, or does the idea of "Black culture" imply that all black people have the same cultural values??
Yes, it's just you. Saying that black culture was wiped out implies that any unique culture they had has been destroyed. It does not suggest that they had one homgenous culture, in fact it doesn't say much about the nature of their culture other than to say it doesn't exist anymore.
Pardon me, but back in Africa many of the native cultures are existant.
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Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Hobot wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote: Is it just me, or does the idea of "Black culture" imply that all black people have the same cultural values??
Yes, it's just you. Saying that black culture was wiped out implies that any unique culture they had has been destroyed. It does not suggest that they had one homgenous culture, in fact it doesn't say much about the nature of their culture other than to say it doesn't exist anymore.
Pardon me, but back in Africa many of the native cultures are existant.
OMG, we're not talking about Africa!
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Hobot wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Hobot wrote: Yes, it's just you. Saying that black culture was wiped out implies that any unique culture they had has been destroyed. It does not suggest that they had one homgenous culture, in fact it doesn't say much about the nature of their culture other than to say it doesn't exist anymore.
Pardon me, but back in Africa many of the native cultures are existant.
OMG, we're not talking about Africa!
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

The very TERM "Black culture" is racist.
Show me "black land.," and explain their "unique " culture.
There are Kenyans, Zulus, Hutus, Borundi, ect... There is no such thing as black culture, any more than there is WHITE culture.

Saying "black culture" reveals racism you can't see in your self.

The same is true of "African" culture, Asian culture, and European culture.
These are CONTINENTS, not cultural designations.
You telling me Lithuanians, and Sweedes have the same culture?Croations and French?
How about Chinese, Koreans, and Japanise? Do they "all look alike to you" culturaly?
Unless you are trying to talk about urban hip hop, and the bling bling shit, which would best be described as Northern American Urban youth culture.
Which decries an education as a bad thing, selling out to "the man."
If you are talking about slaves, brought to the USA, and later freed with their past culture supressed in the USA, the culture they came from is no more destroyed than the culture of Italy has been destroyed, due to Italian immigrants being "forced" to learn english.
Their original culture is still intact, back where they CAME from.
If it is that important, they can get it from the source.
"Blacks," have a culture, in America, called, GASP, American culture.
Culture, like a rainbow, has many different parts.

Now, most of the Northern American Indian cultures WERE all but wiped out, because the people that held the culture in trust, (the elders, artists, and medicine men) were KILLED, and not written records left. Most being illiterate neolithics, I only mourn the only lost data, not the lost value system.
It literaly takes genocide, or complete conquest to wipe out a culture.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

Affirmative action was an emergency remedy, for a long standing problem in America.
Emergencies, by definition are temporary. Times up!
After 30 YEARS, this is no longer an emergency.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

Perhaps a "parental education and income" disparity adjustment program could be done. As long as it is color blind, AND applies ONLY to schooling.
Race hustlers like Jessie Jackson, and Farrakan would never go for it, but the people they claim to represent would.
Hmmmmmm.

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