Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions!"

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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

I'd still like to hear Elfdart explain why executions are done in such a non-dramatic way if the point of them is blood sport.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

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He already explained-it's the closest that society can get to doing it while pretending to be civilized.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Executions are highly publicized events and serve to project the tough on crime image that authoritarian types love without crossing the line into full-on sadistic gorefests that would turn off some elements of their voting base. They're also a part of the entire crime and punishment show that conservative types love to set up. The playbook is to first create an underclass, then criminalize it, then police it, then punish it. This shows how tough they are and creates an other for them to protect their electorate from.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

States are switching to Nitrogen as it's all but impossible to ban nitrogen or stop selling it -- unlike many of the chemicals used for executions.

Death by nitrogen is basically you go to sleep and don't wake up.

Naturally, there's lots of FUD/bullshit being thrown around about nitrogen.

https://oklahomawatch.org/2018/07/17/pu ... for-state/
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-13 02:17pm States are switching to Nitrogen as it's all but impossible to ban nitrogen or stop selling it -- unlike many of the chemicals used for executions.

Death by nitrogen is basically you go to sleep and don't wake up.

Naturally, there's lots of FUD/bullshit being thrown around about nitrogen.

https://oklahomawatch.org/2018/07/17/pu ... for-state/
It's still inhumane as you're forcing a person to walk into a room they know they'll never walk out of. Unless you were to do it at random, while the inmate is sleeping, after all appeals have been exhausted it will never be humane.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-13 03:38pmIt's still inhumane as you're forcing a person to walk into a room they know they'll never walk out of. Unless you were to do it at random, while the inmate is sleeping, after all appeals have been exhausted it will never be humane.
Way to go. if we use your standard of inhumane, its impossible to execute anyone.

1.) If we make them walk into a room they know they'll never walk out of; then it's inhumane.
or
2.) If they go to sleep every night, not knowing if they'll wake up or not; then it's inhumane.

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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-13 07:36pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-13 03:38pmIt's still inhumane as you're forcing a person to walk into a room they know they'll never walk out of. Unless you were to do it at random, while the inmate is sleeping, after all appeals have been exhausted it will never be humane.
Way to go. if we use your standard of inhumane, its impossible to execute anyone.

1.) If we make them walk into a room they know they'll never walk out of; then it's inhumane.
or
2.) If they go to sleep every night, not knowing if they'll wake up or not; then it's inhumane.

Image
It's almost like executions are inhumane or something...
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

What would they do, modify/redesign the execution chamber so it functions as a gas chamber?
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by bilateralrope »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-13 02:17pm States are switching to Nitrogen as it's all but impossible to ban nitrogen or stop selling it -- unlike many of the chemicals used for executions.

Death by nitrogen is basically you go to sleep and don't wake up.

Naturally, there's lots of FUD/bullshit being thrown around about nitrogen.

https://oklahomawatch.org/2018/07/17/pu ... for-state/
When I've heard people talk about using nitrogen for executions before, the method has been to put the condemned into a sealed room, then pumping in the nitrogen.

No strapping the condemned to a platform. No mask or bag to his head. No need for a sedative to stop the condemned from thrashing around, because the thrashing will accomplish nothing. No need to ask questions about what would happen if the condemned tries to hold his breath, because the answer is obvious.

Minimal risk to staff because they will be safely outside the execution chamber while it has nitrogen within it.

The method described in that article seems to be designed around someone wanting to make nitrogen executions as cruel as possible.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Solauren »

I don't have any problems with fixed execution dates, and the entire 'going into a room knowing they'll never come out'. It gives the convicted time to come to terms with things. Confessions (legal or religious), last thoughts and communications to people, that sort of thing.

It also gives the government a fixed deadline to review the case and possibly wave execution. (okay, maybe not Arizona...)

But doing it at random? That's just torturing the prisoner.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Solauren wrote: 2022-01-14 03:17pm I don't have any problems with fixed execution dates, and the entire 'going into a room knowing they'll never come out'. It gives the convicted time to come to terms with things. Confessions (legal or religious), last thoughts and communications to people, that sort of thing.

It also gives the government a fixed deadline to review the case and possibly wave execution. (okay, maybe not Arizona...)

But doing it at random? That's just torturing the prisoner.
I'd not run executions at all, but if I had to I'd make my system opt-in. Prisoners that opt-in are informed that their appeals have run out and that they will be given at least 30 but less than 60 days to get their affairs in order. They are then moved to special cells fitted to carry out the gassing.

As for a random date of death being torture I disagree. We're all going to die at random, some of us might be lucky enough to see it coming but we can never know for sure when our hour will come. Does that torture you?
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-14 03:27pmAs for a random date of death being torture I disagree. We're all going to die at random, some of us might be lucky enough to see it coming but we can never know for sure when our hour will come. Does that torture you?
We don't have to suppose that random execution dates are torture because we know that its torture already. That's how Japan does executions, and its well documented that as a direct result of that, prisoners on death row in Japan are under a constant state of anxiety. It plays merry hell with our survival instincts, and makes the prisoner feel even less in control of their situation than they already are. We are creatures of habit, and this is just exploiting the same biases that ruin the lives of gambling addicts-- except that what is being gambled with is their life, and they know they will inevitably lose. Its also cruel to their families, who receive no notice of when it will happen either, so they can't plan something as basic as when to get everything in order. All in all, its the worst possible way to schedule an execution, just being a dick to the prisoner for the sake of being a fucking dick to them.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote: 2022-01-14 03:38pmWe don't have to suppose that random execution dates are torture because we know that its torture already. That's how Japan does executions, and its well documented that as a direct result of that, prisoners on death row in Japan are under a constant state of anxiety. It plays merry hell with our survival instincts, and makes the prisoner feel even less in control of their situation than they already are. We are creatures of habit, and this is just exploiting the same biases that ruin the lives of gambling addicts-- except that what is being gambled with is their life, and they know they will inevitably lose. Its also cruel to their families, who receive no notice of when it will happen either, so they can't plan something as basic as when to get everything in order. All in all, its the worst possible way to schedule an execution, just being a dick to the prisoner for the sake of being a fucking dick to them.
I'd rather have it done randomly rather than knowing that I'm going to die at a specific time with no say in it but I'm not religious and would rather just be cremated, or used for medical research or organ donation and then tossed in a hole when the world is done with me. My Mom's the same way and I don't have a lot of other family that I'm all the close to.

I presume I'd have even fewer people close to me were I to end up on death row for a crime I'm actually guilty of. If I were on death row and innocent the whole process would be needlessly cruel and the ending an ultimate tragedy so random date or fixed date wouldn't matter much at all.

Also, my system never said anything about anybody else not knowing, just the prisoner wouldn't know. If it were actually random and double-blind how would the prison know to remove the body and clean the cell?
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-14 03:56pm
Formless wrote: 2022-01-14 03:38pmWe don't have to suppose that random execution dates are torture because we know that its torture already. That's how Japan does executions, and its well documented that as a direct result of that, prisoners on death row in Japan are under a constant state of anxiety. It plays merry hell with our survival instincts, and makes the prisoner feel even less in control of their situation than they already are. We are creatures of habit, and this is just exploiting the same biases that ruin the lives of gambling addicts-- except that what is being gambled with is their life, and they know they will inevitably lose. Its also cruel to their families, who receive no notice of when it will happen either, so they can't plan something as basic as when to get everything in order. All in all, its the worst possible way to schedule an execution, just being a dick to the prisoner for the sake of being a fucking dick to them.
I'd rather have it done randomly rather than knowing that I'm going to die at a specific time with no say in it but I'm not religious and would rather just be cremated, or used for medical research or organ donation and then tossed in a hole when the world is done with me. My Mom's the same way and I don't have a lot of other family that I'm all the close to.

I presume I'd have even fewer people close to me were I to end up on death row for a crime I'm actually guilty of. If I were on death row and innocent the whole process would be needlessly cruel and the ending an ultimate tragedy so random date or fixed date wouldn't matter much at all.

Also, my system never said anything about anybody else not knowing, just the prisoner wouldn't know. If it were actually random and double-blind how would the prison know to remove the body and clean the cell?
So what are you going to do, cut the prisoner off from all outside communication so that their family can't reveal the date to them? The inhumanity of that speaks for itself, which is why even the Japanese don't do it that way; no one gets to know the date except the executioners. The fact that American death row inmates feel like they can potentially delay their executions, even if it is an illusion most of the time, actually, demonstrably reduces their stress about the whole affair because there is less uncertainty about the proceedings; whereas for Japanese inmates, FUD is the entire point. I really don't care what you think you would prefer, seeing as you have never been in a life or death or death situation, the studies on Japanese inmates still say this is cruel and if you really were in that situation, you would probably take your own life before the state got around to it (because that's exactly what a lot of Japanese inmates on death row actually do).

Jesus, just go to Human Rights Watch and look at their reports on the Japanese penal system. This isn't a matter of speculation or dispute. You just don't know what you are talking about.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote: 2022-01-14 04:37pmSo what are you going to do, cut the prisoner off from all outside communication so that their family can't reveal the date to them? The inhumanity of that speaks for itself, which is why even the Japanese don't do it that way; no one gets to know the date except the executioners. The fact that American death row inmates feel like they can potentially delay their executions, even if it is an illusion most of the time, actually, demonstrably reduces their stress about the whole affair because there is less uncertainty about the proceedings; whereas for Japanese inmates, FUD is the entire point. I really don't care what you think you would prefer, seeing as you have never been in a life or death or death situation, the studies on Japanese inmates still say this is cruel and if you really were in that situation, you would probably take your own life before the state got around to it (because that's exactly what a lot of Japanese inmates on death row actually do).

Jesus, just go to Human Rights Watch and look at their reports on the Japanese penal system. This isn't a matter of speculation or dispute. You just don't know what you are talking about.
This isn't the Japanese method, my method is the same as the US method up until the point where your date of execution is set, at that stage, a prisoner can opt for either a fixed date or to be housed within a cell that will execute them within a certain timeframe without any special ceremony or other hassles. They would know that after a fixed period of time has passed they won't receive visitors or letters and would be allowed to have their affairs arranged before then.

I don't see how this can possibly cause extra undue harm to anybody.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Solauren »

Jub, the fact you can't understand it, doesn't mean it's not true.
You'd prefer not to know it was coming, fine. Make a point of telling the warden that if you're ever sentenced to death.
Every study in the world rather strongly disagrees with you.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

Jub wrote:I don't see how this can possibly cause extra undue harm to anybody.
Only because you haven't thought about it. Absolutely no one if given the opportunity to choose would actually choose not knowing, because it would be asinine towards their friends and family if nothing else. Those friends might even be other death row inmates, because only the true psychopaths are unable to make friends with the other prisoners. This too is another reason why Japanese inmates are under constant stress, as they don't even know when their own friends in prison will suddenly die. And again, if you know the date you know that you can potentially stay the execution, because every society that performs execution on the pretense (true or false) that they can do so humanely really does have options for staying the execution. They aren't always judicial options; for instance, death row inmates can always send a letter to the Governor or POTUS asking for a pardon or at least a stay of execution, and that does happen from time to time. So those letters are pretty common. Any gamble they have they will use, because that's what your survival instinct is telling you to do. Its an option no one would take, so why bother being cruel to the condemned person's friends and family? The answer is that its a cruel and inhumane practice no matter how you try to implement it.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

The whole process is already cruel, so is the argument that we should abolish the practice entirely? If so I agree. If not, I'm for giving the condemned options even if any of those options might be very rarely used.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

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I have no objection of giving the condemned the option of now not knowing ahead of time. I am against making it the defacto condition.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Solauren wrote: 2022-01-14 05:32pm I have no objection of giving the condemned the option of now not knowing ahead of time. I am against making it the defacto condition.
Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear. I wasn't wanting something hanging over anybody's head long-term, just a choice to not know exactly when the ax will fall and to have it done without ceremony.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

Solauren wrote: 2022-01-14 05:32pm I have no objection of giving the condemned the option of now not knowing ahead of time. I am against making it the defacto condition.
Japan does it that way. You never know ahead of time when you'll be executed. So every day can be your last
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-14 07:27pm
Solauren wrote: 2022-01-14 05:32pm I have no objection of giving the condemned the option of now not knowing ahead of time. I am against making it the defacto condition.
Japan does it that way. You never know ahead of time when you'll be executed. So every day can be your last
Yeah, we kind of had an entire discussion about that up thread.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-14 05:13pm The whole process is already cruel, so is the argument that we should abolish the practice entirely? If so I agree. If not, I'm for giving the condemned options even if any of those options might be very rarely used.
I do agree that it is inherently cruel, but there are degrees of cruelty, and even allowing the "choice" of not knowing is a false choice. You haven't offered any evidence that having a choice will diminish the inherent psychological torment of it, offered no solution to the social problems it introduces for the family and death row population, and haven't addressed the practicality issue of keeping it a secret from the condemned and only the condemned. The idea you have put forth just doesn't work, and I propose that anyone who actually chose to not know would quickly regret making that decision. Do you have an option to back out of not knowing? I just don't see how you think this is a good idea.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Formless wrote: 2022-01-14 11:23pmYou haven't offered any evidence that having a choice will diminish the inherent psychological torment of it,
You're offering them a choice, something death-row inmates usually don't get to make. It at least gives them an option about how to approach their death even if it can't offer them any good choices.
offered no solution to the social problems it introduces for the family and death row population,
Let them all say their goodbyes on the 30th day when the inmate gets moved into their new cell. Just have everybody treat that as the day the inmate died and then make arrangements with the family behind the scenes without the inmate knowing.
and haven't addressed the practicality issue of keeping it a secret from the condemned and only the condemned.
You could either cut off the inmate's contact with the outside world after they move into the execution cell, have the family communicate via time-delayed and moderated text chat where any attempts to tell the inmate would be censored, or just let the family know that it would take away the inmates agency and disrespect their choice and hope they aren't assholes about it. I assume that an inmate who chooses this option wouldn't want to know and may choose to avoid contact if they feel it risks giving them unwanted info.
Do you have an option to back out of not knowing?
If the cell is designed to execute an inmate via nitrogen gas you could just leave the gas controls in the cell. If they want to die on their own terms they get to turn the nobs, if they want it to be random they just wait, and if they want a set date after all they request one within the specified time frame and have the prison handle things. That way the inmate gets as much choice as possible in how they meet their end.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-14 11:57amIt's almost like executions are inhumane or something...
Know what's inhumane?
Gov. Martin O'Malley announced Wednesday that he would erase the last vestiges of Maryland's death row by commuting the sentences of the state's remaining condemned murderers to life without parole.

Acting on the last day of the year and with three weeks remaining in his term, O'Malley said he will spare the lives of four men left in limbo after Maryland abolished the death penalty for future offenders in 2013.

The four are Vernon Evans, Anthony Grandison, Jody Lee Miles and Heath William Burch.

Evans and Grandison were convicted in a 1983 contract killing at a Baltimore County hotel. Burch was sentenced to die in 1996 for killing an elderly couple when he broke into their home in Prince George's County. Miles was found guilty of the 1997 murder of a man during a robbery in Salisbury.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Grandison

While going through security at Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport on his way to Miami a baggage screener noticed a substantial amount of cash in Grandison's luggage. The U.S. Marshals service later arrested him on suspicion of violating his parole, and a search of his belongings revealed a key for a room at the Warren House Motel (now a Howard Johnson's) in Pikesville, Maryland. A search of the room found a substantial amount of cocaine and heroin, which resulted in Grandison being indicted on federal drug charges.

Two key witnesses in the government's case were David Scott Piechowicz and his wife, Cheryl. David Piechowicz was the motel's manager, and he and Cheryl were the only two witnesses who could place Grandison in the room where the drugs were found. Cheryl's sister, Susan Kennedy, was filling in for her at work on the morning of April 28, 1983, when Vernon Lee Evans, a hitman who had been hired by Grandison, entered the motel lobby and shot Susan and David 17 times.

Despite the murder of her husband and sister, Cheryl Piechowicz testified against Grandison 12 days later at his federal drug trial, which ended in Grandison's conviction.


I thought witness killings were an affront to our democracy, etc etc blah blah.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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