The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by MKSheppard » 2020-03-25 08:06am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-21 12:02pm
Oh, yes. Every business under the Sun is being closed, tanking our entire economy out of the necessity to preserve public safety, but God forbid that stressed and frightened people don't have easy access to firearms!
On this morning news (25 March 2020), per Maryland State Police/Governor Hogan, gun stores ARE essential businesses, can remain open, as long as they follow 10 person rule.

I guess Hogan realized the GOP base on the Eastern Shore, Southern Maryland and Western Maryland would abandon him if he didn't do this. :D
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-25 08:08am

That same commission authored the guideline allowing the seizure of already issued ventilators from chronically ill or disabled people who are admitted to acute care facilities during a pandemic. The document is very grim reading both in terms of what it recommends and the disconnect between its requests and the actual state of affairs.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 08:13am

MKSheppard wrote:
2020-03-25 07:41am
mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-25 03:26am
Another nurse fired for warning about inadequate management against coronavirus
TBH, getting fired as a nurse will probably be for the best. You'll be out of the firing line for the soon to come, hottest, most intense ramp up of Corona victims, and you'll be able to set your price for going back to work as hospitals burn through staff.
I mean, from a purely selfish perspective, yeah. From the perspective of society's best interests, firing nurses for trying to be safe is pretty fucking horrible.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-25 08:18am

Punishment for breaking lockdowns by country

Italy - Those found guilty face a three-month prison sentence or a fine of 206 euros

France - French nationals who fall foul of the lockdown restrictions may also face harsher penalties. The minimum fine for violating the confinement rules remains at 135 euros. Repeat offenders, if the offence occurs within 15 days, will be slapped with a 1,500-euro penalty.

In the case of "four violations within 30 days", the offence will be "punishable by a fine of 3,700 euros and up to six months in prison".

Denmark - fine, amount not clear from the article

China.

Its a bit disingenuous to say they are threatening death for breaking the lockdown. They threaten the death penalty as a last resort for crimes against medical personal which includes KILLING a medical worker. Even CNN reports it like so.
https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/ ... c2138b39da
The statement ends by saying the death penalty will not be ruled out in severe cases.

The seven medical-related crimes affected by these new measures are:

1. Beatings, intentional injuries, and intentional killing of medical personnel.

2 Illegally restricting medical personnel's personal freedom using violence, threats, or blatantly insulting, intimidating, or slandering medical personnel.

3 Tearing protective gears off of and spitting on medical personnel, which may cause medical personnel to be infected with the new coronavirus.

4 Refusing to accept checks, quarantine, and treatment measures of medical and health institutions using violence, threats, or other methods, or obstructing medical and health institutions’ lawful disposal of corpses of infectious disease patients according to law.

5 Forcibly or intentionally destroying or occupying properties of medical and health institutions, or causing disturbances in the medical and health institutions, illegally placing dead bodies, setting up the mourning hall without permission, causing disorder and disrupting the normal conduct of epidemic prevention and control.

6 Illegally carrying guns, ammunition, tightly regulated instruments or explosive, radioactive, poisonous and corrosive materials while entering medical and health institutions.

7 Other situations that violate the safety of medical personnel and disrupt medical order.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 08:28am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 06:43am
But if China can make it work, then hopefully the rest of the world will adopt the same model as soon as practicable.
Except for those places that refuse to accept "foreigners" can do things well and refuse to adopt foreigner best-practices....
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 08:30am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-25 06:51am
The US has 67% of China's cases but less than 25% of the population. That should already clue people in.
But would require them to look at numbers! And maybe understand them!

It won't sink in until it hits the rural areas. Too many in the redlands would be happy to have the cities die off.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-25 08:33am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 06:43am
Can't blame them for being cautious, really. I'd rather the lockdowns go on longer than necessary than end too soon, leading to a resurgence of cases.
On the other hand, however, having lockdowns go on longer than necessary is going to have consequences of its own. And I'm not just talking about the economic ones, although they aren't going to be pretty all by themselves: I'm also worried about the psychological effects of spending three months under effective house arrest. There's already talk of a spike in domestic violence incidents and it hasn't even been a full month yet, what's it going to be like by mid-June?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 08:38am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-25 07:15am
The Navajo nation is now at 50 cases, originating out of a church function. Oh, and they don't have enough PPE even with a delivery from the SNS.
No health system in the US has enough PPE. Why would you expect them to be an exception?

And this just highlights the stupidity of American Protestantism which its emphasis on mass events even though exactly nothing in Christianity REQUIRES that people gather together in large groups on a weekly basis, and why allowing missionaries with their toxic religious practices to proselytize ANYWHERE should be completely banned. Which I realize is not going to happen in the real world. >sigh<

I just posted about how you only need one infected person at a church service to become a super-spreader. There's a real life example. Banning large groups has to include worship services because it's clear the Invisible Sky Pixie doesn't give a shit and will happily let the virus eat through the True Believers just as unimpeded as any other group.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 » 2020-03-25 08:39am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-25 08:28am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 06:43am
But if China can make it work, then hopefully the rest of the world will adopt the same model as soon as practicable.
Except for those places that refuse to accept "foreigners" can do things well and refuse to adopt foreigner best-practices....
Nothing to do with foreignness. Look at how long it took most of the West to admit China's measures were necessary, and it was not merely a case of them being evil draconian China once again.

Even amongst liberals, there is still a strong us-vs-them mentality that makes it difficult for people to admit their framework and reference point can be problematic.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-25 08:42am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-25 08:38am
loomer wrote:
2020-03-25 07:15am
The Navajo nation is now at 50 cases, originating out of a church function. Oh, and they don't have enough PPE even with a delivery from the SNS.
No health system in the US has enough PPE. Why would you expect them to be an exception?

And this just highlights the stupidity of American Protestantism which its emphasis on mass events even though exactly nothing in Christianity REQUIRES that people gather together in large groups on a weekly basis, and why allowing missionaries with their toxic religious practices to proselytize ANYWHERE should be completely banned. Which I realize is not going to happen in the real world. >sigh<

I just posted about how you only need one infected person at a church service to become a super-spreader. There's a real life example. Banning large groups has to include worship services because it's clear the Invisible Sky Pixie doesn't give a shit and will happily let the virus eat through the True Believers just as unimpeded as any other group.
I wouldn't expect them to be, but I had hoped that the call for resources would have been answered promptly, especially when confirmed cases appeared on the Nation. That whole fiduciary duty thing.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 08:45am

Zaune wrote:
2020-03-25 08:33am
On the other hand, however, having lockdowns go on longer than necessary is going to have consequences of its own. And I'm not just talking about the economic ones, although they aren't going to be pretty all by themselves: I'm also worried about the psychological effects of spending three months under effective house arrest. There's already talk of a spike in domestic violence incidents and it hasn't even been a full month yet, what's it going to be like by mid-June?
Increase in domestic violence up to and including killing, and an increase in suicides and other forms of mental illness.

A lot of people are discovering - or reaffirming - that they don't actually like their relatives much.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 08:50am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-25 08:42am
I wouldn't expect them to be, but I had hoped that the call for resources would have been answered promptly, especially when confirmed cases appeared on the Nation. That whole fiduciary duty thing.
The article says that they have enough PPE for a week. Which I agree isn't what they should have, but population centers like NYC are looking to run out even sooner - arguably, they already have with healthcare personnel reusing disposable masks after trying to sanitize them and using garbage bags as protective gowns.

You are correct, the Federal government has failed everyone in this country. But arguably in this particular case the Navajo with a week's worth of supplies actually did proportionally get more than almost anyone else. I know for damn sure no hospital in my area has gotten anything from the Strategic Reserve, we're on our own with our cases doubling every 3-4 days at this point and showing every sign of accelerating.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by loomer » 2020-03-25 09:31am

Aren't you in Indiana?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-25 09:35am

Broomstick wrote:
2020-03-25 08:45am
Increase in domestic violence up to and including killing, and an increase in suicides and other forms of mental illness.

A lot of people are discovering - or reaffirming - that they don't actually like their relatives much.
Quite. When we hit the three-month mark we might have to loosen the quarantine whether the pandemic is starting to burn out or not, either because it's starting to harm as many people as it protects or because compliance fatigue has set in and it's no longer possible to enforce it without resorting to outright violence.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by aerius » 2020-03-25 09:41am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 06:43am
Can't blame them for being cautious, really. I'd rather the lockdowns go on longer than necessary than end too soon, leading to a resurgence of cases.

But if China can make it work, then hopefully the rest of the world will adopt the same model as soon as practicable.
Considering how China carried out and enforced their lockdowns, are you sure you really want to do that considering how much you cry about civil liberties and Constitutional rights? Might want to rethink that. Just saying.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 09:44am

aerius wrote:
2020-03-25 09:41am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 06:43am
Can't blame them for being cautious, really. I'd rather the lockdowns go on longer than necessary than end too soon, leading to a resurgence of cases.

But if China can make it work, then hopefully the rest of the world will adopt the same model as soon as practicable.
Considering how China carried out and enforced their lockdowns, are you sure you really want to do that considering how much you cry about civil liberties and Constitutional rights? Might want to rethink that. Just saying.
One does not have to be a dictatorship to impose temporary lock downs in a crisis.

Your derision for civil liberties, and me for advocating them, is very telling, but then I already knew that you were part of this board's crypto-fascist contingent (and barely bothering with the "crypto" part).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by aerius » 2020-03-25 10:05am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 09:44am
aerius wrote:
2020-03-25 09:41am
Considering how China carried out and enforced their lockdowns, are you sure you really want to do that considering how much you cry about civil liberties and Constitutional rights? Might want to rethink that. Just saying.
One does not have to be a dictatorship to impose temporary lock downs in a crisis.

Your derision for civil liberties, and me for advocating them, is very telling, but then I already knew that you were part of this board's crypto-fascist contingent (and barely bothering with the "crypto" part).
How, exactly, do you propose to ensure compliance when the people get sick of being stuck inside and start losing their shit? Ask them real nicely and hope they obey? You actually think Americans will peacefully obey an indefinite long term quarantine order? How much glue did you eat as a child?
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by ray245 » 2020-03-25 10:08am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 09:44am
One does not have to be a dictatorship to impose temporary lock downs in a crisis.
Yes, but the West waited too long to impose lock down because of the narrative that was being created, in seeing the West as somehow being exceptional to China in terms of measures used to contain the outbreak.

China locked down one region. The West are basically locking down the entire country because they did not want to implement a lock down much earlier.
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 10:30am

ray245 wrote:
2020-03-25 10:08am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 09:44am
One does not have to be a dictatorship to impose temporary lock downs in a crisis.
Yes, but the West waited too long to impose lock down because of the narrative that was being created, in seeing the West as somehow being exceptional to China in terms of measures used to contain the outbreak.

China locked down one region. The West are basically locking down the entire country because they did not want to implement a lock down much earlier.
Much of the West (and the non-West, see Iran) waited too long and lied to themselves and others about how bad it was. Although once it left China, I doubt there was any containing it, unless everyone had agreed to do much stricter lock downs much earlier.

In some good news, the Olympics have FINALLY bowed to reality and postponed to 2021.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-25 10:49am

In terms of enforcing strict lockdowns, AFAIK only Italy actually deployed the army to enforce it. Others deployed the army for logistics (France, China), and used army medics (China), but mostly the civilian police force were sufficient to enforce their lockdown. Arguably the Chinese attempt was more successful in terms of keeping people off the street (one of the Chinese doctors giving advice in Italy was stunned at seeing so many people on the streets during a supposedly "lockdown"), but I would argue that's not necessarily because China used more force. Their population just grasped how serious the matter is earlier than some Western countries (as evidence by how many percentage don't even COVID 19 as a problem in the US?).

The lockdown itself for Hubei province (minus Wuhan) has ended as of 25 march, while Wuhan if all goes well will have their lockdown ended on 8 April.

I suspect part of the reason the West took longer relative to lockdown was because the media framed it not as a public health issue, but as a democracy vs non democracy issue.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 11:13am

Well gee, some people were less than trusting of the motives of a government that's put hundreds of thousands or millions of minorities in concentration camps. Who'd have thought?

Yes, temporary lockdowns during a pandemic are a good idea. Yes, some places should have enacted them sooner.

No, this is not the grand proof of the superiority of the Chinese dictatorship over the evil West that you're enthusiastically fapping over.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Broomstick » 2020-03-25 11:18am

loomer wrote:
2020-03-25 09:31am
Aren't you in Indiana?
Yep.

Specifically Lake County. 19 official cases and counting. A week ago we had 1. Small numbers but by now we all know how they go up and up. And everyone knows a lot of cases are missed due to how little testing has been available.

Right now the attention/aid is focused on Chicago, not us. Our local hospitals are getting resupplied with things like gloves and masks by donations from local business or even individuals digging through their DIY supplies. They're getting hand sanitizer from local distilleries switching from beverages to sanitizer. Illinois might manage to get some help from the Feds, and governor Pritzger has made noises about using his personal fortune to help out (he's a billionaire), but that's for Chicago and Illinois, we're in another state and won't get anything of that even if it is literally across the street from us. Our governor Holcomb is most likely going to focus any obtainable aid on Indianapolis, which currently has 226 cases and is the state hotspot. We're the forgotten red-headed step-child of the region and state.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 11:18am

Prince Charles has it:

ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/prince-charles-tests-positive-for-new-coronavirus-1.4867279
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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mr friendly guy
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by mr friendly guy » 2020-03-25 11:31am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-25 11:13am
Well gee, some people were less than trusting of the motives of a government that's put hundreds of thousands or millions of minorities in concentration camps. Who'd have thought?

Yes, temporary lockdowns during a pandemic are a good idea. Yes, some places should have enacted them sooner.

No, this is not the grand proof of the superiority of the Chinese dictatorship over the evil West that you're enthusiastically fapping over.
You miss the point. When the media portrays the required public health measure as bad, then that just makes people hesitant to implement these measures. The delay literally costs lives, and the media will never ever take responsibility for this of course.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

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Zaune
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Re: The Walls Come Down: No Travel Betwen US and Europe for 30 Days

Post by Zaune » 2020-03-25 12:13pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2020-03-25 11:31am
You miss the point. When the media portrays the required public health measure as bad, then that just makes people hesitant to implement these measures. The delay literally costs lives, and the media will never ever take responsibility for this of course.
How many media outlets actually, literally did that? In the sense that they said "Ignore what the government is saying, it's all a big con by the deep state" or whatever, as opposed to raising the entirely valid question of how that was supposed to be practical without the government implementing a bunch of other stuff? Much of which either hasn't happened at all or been implemented in a half-arsed manner, I might add.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


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