Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by His Divine Shadow »

https://medium.com/@CitationsPodcst/epi ... f8e0fe092f

This is a podcast and this is a transcript.
Intro: This is Citations Needed with Nima Shirazi and Adam Johnson.

Nima Shirazi: Welcome to Citations Needed a podcast on the media, power, PR and the history of bullshit. I am Nima Shirazi.
Adam Johnson: I’m Adam Johnson.

Nima: You can follow us on Twitter @CitationsPod, Facebook, Citations Needed, support the show through Patreon.com/CitationsNeededPodcast with Nima Shirazi and Adam Johnson. All your support is so helpful. Helps us keep going and growing. And we’ve been doing it for now over a year. So your support really has brought us here and hopefully will continue. So thanks everyone for listening.

Adam: Yeah, if you’ve thought about it but haven’t yet, please try to donate to Patreon. It does actually help. So Russia, as we all know, has sinister oligarchs whereas the United States we are told has philanthropists or job creators or industry titans who unlike the oligarchs, they got their wealth through moxie, hard work and dedication and pure merit. Whereas billionaires in other countries, whether it’s China or Russia or kind of batty countries, they got theirs through some form of crony capitalism or manipulation and aside from a few cartoonishly evil billionaires like say the Walton family or Peter Thiel, or increasingly Elon Musk and his and his Twitter meltdowns, or the Koch brothers, the average American, I think, I think it’s fair to say, Nima, has a pretty warm and fuzzy feeling about the super wealthy.

Nima: The most notable of these benevolent billionaires, the less cartoonishly evil ones, the kind of warm and fuzzy ones is Bill Gates, who’s philanthropic works through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation operate the largest overseas nonprofit regime on the planet. It is worth over $40 billion which is almost twice as much as the next biggest foundation. The Gates Foundation receives almost uniformly softball coverage from the media, most of whom from Vox to BBC to The Guardian to Al Jazeera to MTV to BET to NBC, all received funding from Gates in some way through various investment and donor arrangements, partnerships, collaborations, both from his personal coffers and the Gates Foundation itself. The foundation that bears his name and disperses part of his fortune.

Adam: So in this two part episode we’re going to ask how much Gates’ network of patronage effects his coverage in US media, which is broadly overwhelmingly positive and uncritical of Bill Gates. We want to figure out how you can be critical without sort of being too paranoid or too cynical and what the true nature of the capitalist ideology that animates Bill Gates, how it manifests, and how oftentimes it ends up harming the very people it ostensibly aims to help.

Nima: We will be joined this week by Dr. Linsey J. McGoey, Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Essex and author of the book No Such Thing As A Free Gift: The Gates Foundation and the Price of Philanthropy.

[Begin Clip]
Linsey J. McGoey: Having Mr. Gates, who’s, who’s seen as so intelligent and knowledgeable and I don’t doubt that he is in many areas, but in other areas his ignorance has been glaring but never called out by a media that seems to be either just bamboozled by his charisma and his authority or recognizes that there are some concerns with this one individual wielding so much influence over policy making, but they’re fearful of voicing their concerns because a taboo surrounding criticizing philanthropy is so profound in Western nations.
[End Clip]

Nima: Next week we will be joined by Miriam Mayet, Executive Director of the African Center for Biodiversity.

[Begin Clip]
Mariam Mayet: We’re kind of feeling like new technologies are being tested in Africa as if we’re treating Africans as guinea pigs for technologies that even the US military is interested in, which is the gene drive technologies, the US military’s funding this Target Malaria project to the tune of $100 million.
[End Clip]

Adam: Bill Gates, I think it’s fair to say, has probably some of the best public relations on earth. Polls show that he’s broadly liked. Most of the coverage, the vast, vast majority coverage is completely fluffy. What we’re going to sort of try to show on the show is that that is not solely based on the objective merits of his work, but as part of a broader media influence regime, which is pretty tremendous when you stop and take a look at it. So let’s begin by kind of establishing the stakes. The reach of Gates’ influences is not just on how much money he gives, but it’s the prospect inspector of getting the money in the future. The Gates Foundation in the past few years has given, this is solely to media outlets, has given $4 million to the BBC, $5.7 million to The Guardian. He funds the entire global development vertical at The Guardian. And by the way this is annual gifts. And he’s given $100,000 to Le Monde, to $1 million to Al Jazeera, $2.7 million to NPR and PRI, about a million dollars to the Canadian media giant Post Media Network, $800,000 to Univision, $300,000 to MTV, VH1 and BET, $1.3 million to Universal Media LLC and $2 million to the Participant Media Foundation, which is a shell foundation that was used to finance the film Waiting for Superman, which heavily featured Gates singing the praises of charter schools without of course noting he funded the film, so that’s just kind of a cursory review of the amount of money he gives media, which is not a ton of money, but when you look at how cash strapped a lot of media outlets are-

Nima: Right. It’s not a ton of money for Bill Gates or for the Gates Foundation —

Adam: But it’s a lot of money for press outlets.


It's really long so if you wanna read on go to the link, you can also listen to it. I wanted to include this bit though...


Adam: Sometimes it’s pretty benign. I think oftentimes if not most times it can be benign. Um, like for example, they partnered with MTV and BET to message television for people to stay in school. Right?

Nima: Right.

Adam: We can sort of all broadly think, ‘Okay, that’s good. People should stay in school.’ But around 2009, 2010 when there was, when there’s a real push by Gates and the Waltons and others to go after teachers unions, The New York Times reported that education themed shows, one of which was was Law and Order and Law and Order SVU. Now at this exact same time, there’s an episode of Law and Order, it’s actually the last episode of Law and Order, it aired in May of 2010. This was about three months before Gates’ other property Waiting for Superman hit theaters. It had premiered at Sundance that previous January and February and this is an episode called “Rubber Rooms.” I don’t know if you guys remember this, but the rubber rooms was this kind of moral panic around that time after a 2008 episode of This American Life aired this thing about teachers who can’t get fired, so they stay in these rubber rooms and then Law and Order contrived this episode that was built around it. I’m going to read you the show description from TV Guide, “After Van Buren discovers a blog site featuring a video of an alarming amount of explosives, Detectives Lupo and Bernard race against time to find the anonymous blogger before he can make good on his threat to blow up a school. The Department of Education’s refusal to take the threat seriously and resistance from teachers’ union further complicates the investigation.” And this episode has woven into it some pretty amazing anti teachers’ union propaganda. This is at the same time that NBCUniversal is getting millions of dollars from the Gates Foundation to weave messages into shows. Let’s play that clip.

[Begin Clip]
[Law and Order “dun, dun”]

Fontova: Sorry, I can’t help you. The teacher in question was the subject of a proceeding, but it was resolved before it got to arbitration.
Detective #1: Resolved how? You fired the teacher?

Fontova: I really can’t discuss it. The unions would be all over us.

Detective #2: Well maybe we didn’t make ourselves clear Mr. Fontova, but there is a credible bomb threat against one of your schools.

Fontova: Bomb threats are a serious matter, but union lawyers are more serious.

Prelutsky: The file was sealed. I wouldn’t be doing my job protecting members of this union if I violated that seal.

Detective #2: Mr. Prelutsky, I assure you this unnamed teacher is not a target in our investigation, but he might have important information-

Prelutsky: I have a collective bargaining agreement to enforce.

[End Clip]

Adam: Okay, so here we have the major plot thrust is that there’s a bomb about to go off and the teachers’ union is preventing them-

Nima: Is blocking the investigation.

Adam: Right. And the Department of Education on the state level is also blocking the investigation because those are obviously a target for these kinds of reform movements.

Nima: You know what’s better than blowing up an entire school full of children? Organized labor!

Adam: No, really, it’s quite shocking actually. It’s, it’s there’s a bomb about to go off in a school and their investigation is being impeded by union lawyers and the evil union reps. But what the episode does somewhat interestingly well is the narrative was always, the whole Waiting for Superman narrative was that teachers were good and that they were pro-teacher, but unions were somehow holding them back, which of course is absurd, but that was the argument they take. So there’s actually parts in the episode when like the good teacher steps in or does the right thing.

Nima: Right.

Adam: So here is when the guy explains the rubber room, it’s of course it’s an African American male who explains why these teachers are getting paid to not work. And of course it’s also the evil unions.

[Begin Clip]
Detective #1: According the Department of Education, most of these teachers are in Queens. At something called a temporary reassignment center.

Detective #2: What is that?

Man: Welcome to the rubber room! This is where teachers accused of incompetence or misconduct or reassigned pending an arbitration hearing.

Detective #2: They’re not teaching?

Man: We don’t want them near the classroom, but we can’t fire them pending the arbitration. So they report here seven hours a day, five days a week.

Detective #1: And do what?

Man: Crossword puzzles, sort recipes. I have teachers here who have been waiting for their hearing for two years. That’s why they call it the rubber room. Two years.

Detective #1: What happens if they don’t show up?

Man: They don’t show up. They don’t get paid their full salary. Union rules right?

[End Clip]

Adam: Right. And so of course it isn’t union rules. It’s part of the contract the unions made with the city, but whatever. All right, so then there’s the very end. The teacher is (laughing) the teacher wants to tell the police who the person they’re looking for is, he’s a teacher who’s going to blow up the school and shoot everybody, which he ends up actually kind of doing. But guess what? She’s represented by a union lawyer who doesn’t want her to speak to the cops because he’s, I guess evil.

Nima: That’s what unions do, right? That’s, that’s the entire message of what unions exist to do. Protecting bad teachers.

Adam: Right. No, its brilliant. So here he is, they’re being interrogated by a district attorney and the police, and this is what he says:

[Begin Clip]
Lawyer: Maura, hold on. Who gets reassigned to a TRC is not a matter of public record. She doesn’t have to answer you.

DA: This god, this teacher, whoever he may be, presents an imminent danger, not just to himself but to hundreds-

Lawyer: Unless you have a subpoena, you can’t compel her to talk. Do you have a subpoena? I didn’t think so. Maura, let’s go.

[End Clip]

Adam: Yeah, there was a bomb, she’s like, there’s a bomb going to go off and he’s like, you don’t have a subpoena. Let’s go. And then he walks out and then the teacher ends up like crying and giving it away in spite of her lawyer. So the episode ends actually with the disgruntled teacher shooting three students and almost blowing it up and then they catch him at the eleventh hour.

Nima: Right. Made possible by nefarious teachers’ unions.

Adam: Now I want to clarify, I don’t know for 100 percent certainty that that was assisted by the partnership with the Gates Foundation. It was around that time and it’s a very sort of on the nose anti-union message, but I’m going to go and say that the millions of dollars the Gates Foundation gave NBC may have influenced their very weird anti-union stance. Call me crazy.

Nima: (Laughs.)

Adam: Another sort of interesting thing they astroturfed was, was Waiting for Superman, which again, we touched on in Episode 1, but I want to reiterate how kind of brilliant it was and how, how much of the liberal media sort of fell for it. So in 2009, that Gates Foundation entered into a five year multimillion dollar partnership with Viacom, and then in February of 2010 or January and February of 2010, uh, Waiting for Superman premiered at Sundance and was quote “picked up” by Paramount Vantage. Paramount Vantage is the artisanal branch of Paramount. It’s actually just Paramount it isn’t even a subsidiary. It’s the same company. And Paramount of course is owned by Viacom. They needed it to look like it was some organic like film festival, you know, it’d had buzz, but of course the whole thing was already mapped out. Gates entered into an education partnership with Viacom.

Nima: They were obviously going to release the film anyway.
Adam: Yeah they were going to release the, Paramount was going to release the film the whole time, but it needed to have sort of liberal street cred. So they, they totally just astroturfed this silly Sundance purchase.

Nima: Right.

Adam: And what was not known at the time, which we didn’t reveal later, which begin we also briefly discussed was that um, $2 million was given to the film by four major billionaires, two of whom were the Walton family and, uh, Eli Broad, who is the founder of GAP, and a huge charter school supporter. They gave money to something called Participant Media Foundation, which was used to fund the film, but in a nonpublic way and it wasn’t until years later where, you know, you go through their 990s and find it out. So again, there’s a lot of astroturfing going on because you have to look at it this way, right? Gates for fair or not legitimately thinks that teachers’ unions are a huge impediment to education. So his union message is no different. His anti-union message is no different than his stay in school message or his, you know, get tested for HIV message or his mosquito nets, right? It’s all part of the same worldview, which is that unions and those who get in the way of capitalism, technology entrepreneurship are a major problem.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by K. A. Pital »

Billionaire wishing to smash traditional structures that impede capitalism? Truly astonishing.

Sarcasm aside, this is only notable because of Gates’ slick PR machine that paints him as some sort of humble, progressive super capitalist who is concerned about the fates of all mankind.

He really plays his low-key persona to the max. Unlike obviously cartoonishly villainous people like Thiel, Uber’s founders, Pharma Bro and others, Gates is the modern version of the romantic, benevolent slave-owner.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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I mostly know Shirazi from his commentary on the Middle East. In that area he’s been damn good.

Thing is the teachers union is a poor example. My uncle is a teacher and he can attest that in New York the teachers unions DO wield disproportionate power and can be assholes. They have prevented incompetent teachers from getting fired (like how the police union protects dirty cops).

Unions can be good but they can also do bad and teachers unions abusing their authority is an example of unions being bad
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

While I agree in principle with K.A. Pital's general stance on the ultra-rich, I don't find this teacher's union example to be particularly convincing as an opprobrium on Bill Gates. As Darth Yan said, there are some very real and deep problems with many teacher's unions in the United States that are pretty tangential to the traditional role of unions. The teacher's unions are in desperate need of reform (and in particular have been wielded as rather vicious tools of racial discrimination in places like Baltimore County, as the primarily white leadership actively pushes policy to continue marginalizing primarily black school districts and so on). Gates is no angel, by any means, but I don't shed many tears for racist and corrupt organizations being screwed over, either.

(To be fair, I don't know anything about the PARTICULAR teacher's union that is being targeted here, and don't feel like researching the case more. It is entirely possible that this union isn't one of the bad ones, in which case I would agree with OP's sentiment.)
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Darth Yan »

My uncle lives in New York (Which is where the show takes place). From what he told me they can be pretty bad (namely they often just assign teachers to some random ass room where they don't do anything.) Teacher's unions will often protect teachers from being fired even if they're either a.) bullies or b.) incompetent fucks. So in THAT regard Shirazi and his partner were uninformed. Teacher's Unions being portrayed as incompetent isn't attacking unions as a whole.

It's like the police union and how they've tried to fight ANY attempt to hold police accountable (the Chicago FOP has appointed leaders who openly deny the atrocities of Jon Burge).

Warren Buffett's an example of the ultra rich NOT being horrible (he lives in a modest home, gives his Grandkids JUST enough money so they can go to college and that's it). He doesn't flout his riches like a lot of other people and he's attacked supply side economics.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 05:35pmWarren Buffett's an example of the ultra rich NOT being horrible (he lives in a modest home, gives his Grandkids JUST enough money so they can go to college and that's it). He doesn't flout his riches like a lot of other people and he's attacked supply side economics.
Always glad to see the Buffett cult of personality show itself. By what non-horrible means did he acquire his absurd net worth?
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Darth Yan »

Really smart investments. Even then it took 28 years before he went from millionaire to billionaire. Other than attempting to buy out some media companies he hasn't really done anything terribly shady. Is it really THAT hard to accept that some billionaires do get their fortunes honestly? This isn't like Jeffrey Epstein where the guy got most of his wealth via blackmail
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 06:41pm Really smart investments. Even then it took 28 years before he went from millionaire to billionaire. Other than attempting to buy out some media companies he hasn't really done anything terribly shady. Is it really THAT hard to accept that some billionaires do get their fortunes honestly? This isn't like Jeffrey Epstein where the guy got most of his wealth via blackmail
Defend those billionaires! Perhaps one day they'll let you clean their boots.

One question about Buffett's "really smart investments;" what effect do they have on the citizenry? From layoffs, to worse experiences for consumers, to greater monopolies because he fucking loves them.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Oh please. There are loads of asshole billionaires (Jeffrey Epstein was hardly the only example. Bezos is also a terrible person and he's hardly the only one). But Buffett's been very low key in a lot of ways; monopolies aside he hasn't endorsed terrible positions (if anything he's been more than willing to criticize his fellows) he hasn't been caught with jeffrey epstein..... Do you REALLY think all billionaires are monsters who exploit others (I'm asking honestly by the way)?

Yes a lot of rich people are assholes. But the world is complex. As I pointed out Nima Shirazi's accusation that the episode where the teacher's union are portrayed as assholes isn't anti union because guess what a LOT of teacher's unions CAN and ARE corrupt. Saying that teacher's unions are bad doesn't actually mean you think all unions are bad.

You're doing the same thing. Pointing out that Warren Buffett hasn't done that much egregious shit is HARDLY me being a sycophant for billionaires like you seem to think it is (then again you also seem on board with communism)
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 07:39pm Oh please. There are loads of asshole billionaires (Jeffrey Epstein was hardly the only example. Bezos is also a terrible person and he's hardly the only one). But Buffett's been very low key in a lot of ways; monopolies aside he hasn't endorsed terrible positions (if anything he's been more than willing to criticize his fellows) he hasn't been caught with jeffrey epstein.....
What difference does it make if Buffett is "very low key?"
Do you REALLY think all billionaires are monsters who exploit others (I'm asking honestly by the way)?
Yes. Capitalism requires winners and losers. How many had to lose so Buffett could make his mint? Fun fact: He owned a lot of Moody's, who cleaned up by selling AAA ratings leading up to the GFC.
You're doing the same thing. Pointing out that Warren Buffett hasn't done that much egregious shit is HARDLY me being a sycophant for billionaires like you seem to think it is (then again you also seem on board with communism)
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Darth Yan »

Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.


Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.


Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Oh, what a surprise. Crybaby Pisspants here runs out on a debate about communism but keeps posting about it and trying to use it as some kind of delegitimising ad hom. Shut the fuck up, crybaby pisspants.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.
Fun fact: There was competition in the USSR. But if you'd like to discuss it, there's a thread going on already.

So maybe address my questions?
Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Call McCarthy! The Reds are emerging from under the bed!
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Zinegata »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.
The competition line had always been stupid, because it's applicable only to a subset of consumer goods where there is sufficient product differentiation for multiple suppliers to be justifiable.

Having multiple companies "compete" for basic utilities such as electricity and water for instance is stupid. Multiple companies can't compete on the basis of "better" water, they can only compete on the basis of the water getting cheaper and that usually involves cutting corners. Indeed, what actually results in is building two or more water treatment plants - all of which turn out unprofitable - because it creates oversupply.

Monopolies can actually be very efficient. One water treatment plant that's just enough to service the city is better than three separate plants producing three times the water the city needs. The thing is they have to be heavily regulated, but all the valiant pro-capitalism defenders are basically clueless about basic economic realities and keep trying to generalize based on the propaganda spiels provided by their pro-capitalism masters.

Really, that's why privatizing utilities and transport have almost always turned out to be unmitigated disasters. But you'll never have pro-capitalism defenders admit to these kinds of titanic failures.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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loomer wrote: 2019-09-18 10:27pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.


Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Oh, what a surprise. Crybaby Pisspants here runs out on a debate about communism but keeps posting about it and trying to use it as some kind of delegitimising ad hom. Shut the fuck up, crybaby pisspants.
No. I have a right to debate and I’m not going to let you drive me out. I’m not so much relitigating the debate as pointing out that demonizing every last billionaire as a monster doesn’t really make sense and is in line with the rather simplistic ideas that KA has. Also that the best countries tend to combine socialistic and capitalist elements or did you miss me dissing on communism?

You act like you have some greater understanding of the world while buying into a simplistic “the west and white people are evil and anything non western and non white is automatically good” (see how you ignored numerous points about how native cultures were incredibly diverse and complex and assuming everyone would play ball in your decolonization fantasy just because people will supposedly negotiate things and that there won’t be any complications, the repeated attempts to defend communism in the previous thread despite the fact that every practical attempt to put communist ideals in charge has been a disaster etc.)

So no. You aren’t acting in good faith either. You’re being dogmatic because people don’t buy into your view that the west is satan
Gandalf wrote: 2019-09-18 10:48pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.
Fun fact: There was competition in the USSR. But if you'd like to discuss it, there's a thread going on already.

So maybe address my questions?
Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Call McCarthy! The Reds are emerging from under the bed!
Oh fuck you. KA might be an idiot but he’s not actively engaged in treason or any attempt to topple a government. He wants communism to come in through peaceful means. It’s a stupid idea but perfectly harmless. McCarthy was against people having opinions and equated that with plotting.....which is stupid.

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Some socialist elements work. The postal service is socialist. Socialized medicine has also done wonders. Pure capitalism is indeed a destructive idealogy. But so is pure communism and you can’t seem to acknowledge that
Last edited by Darth Yan on 2019-09-18 11:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Zinegata »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 11:28pm No. I have a right to debate and I’m not going to let you drive me out. I’m not so much relitigating the debate as pointing out that demonizing every last billionaire as a monster doesn’t really make sense and is in line with the rather simplistic ideas that KA has. Also that the best countries tend to combine socialistic and capitalist elements or did you miss me dissing on communism?
You're the one who doesn't understand basic economics and who tries to generalize it based on an ideological argument about communism vs capitalism. Don't accuse others of being reductive when your argument is itself reductive.
You act like you have some greater understanding of the world while buying into a simplistic “the west and white people are evil and anything non western and non white is automatically good” (see how you ignored numerous points about how native cultures were incredibly diverse and complex and assuming everyone would play ball in your decolonization fantasy just because people will supposedly negotiate things and that there won’t be any complications, the repeated attempts to defend communism in the previous thread despite the fact that every practical attempt to put communist ideals in charge has been a disaster etc.)

So no. You aren’t acting in good faith either. You’re being dogmatic because people don’t buy into your view that the west is satan
You're engaging in whataboutism. Which Americans think is a clever way to get around criticisms of their own system, when in reality studies outside of the United States consistently prove that it's nothing more than Americans being huge hypocrites to hide the fact that they keep comparing themselves to other countries to hide their own titanic problems.

Your feigned offense is also frankly very common and reflective of the widespread magical thinking that afflicts the average American on the internet.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by loomer »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 11:28pm
loomer wrote: 2019-09-18 10:27pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.


Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Oh, what a surprise. Crybaby Pisspants here runs out on a debate about communism but keeps posting about it and trying to use it as some kind of delegitimising ad hom. Shut the fuck up, crybaby pisspants.
No. I have a right to debate and I’m not going to let you drive me out. I’m not so much relitigating the debate as pointing out that demonizing every last billionaire as a monster doesn’t really make sense and is in line with the rather simplistic ideas that KA has. Also that the best countries tend to combine socialistic and capitalist elements or did you miss me dissing on communism?
Then go finish the debate we're having about communism, crybaby pisspants, instead of trying to use some supposed communist leanings of Gandalf's as an ad hom.
You act like you have some greater understanding of the world
I certainly have a greater understanding of the world than you do, crybaby pisspants.
while buying into a simplistic “the west and white people are evil and anything non western and non white is automatically good” (see how you ignored numerous points about how native cultures were incredibly diverse and complex and assuming everyone would play ball in your decolonization fantasy just because people will supposedly negotiate things and that there won’t be any complications, the repeated attempts to defend communism in the previous thread despite the fact that every practical attempt to put communist ideals in charge has been a disaster etc.)
I'm not here to relitigate decolonization. If you want to, we can, again, do so - but I'll be expecting you to actually follow basic debate etiquette. That seems to be something you have a problem doing, crybaby pisspants, so you might be better served to stop trying to score points off a debate you pretty soundly lost the last time.
So no. You aren’t acting in good faith either. You’re being dogmatic because people don’t buy into your view that the west is satan
I don't have that view, crybaby pisspants. You seem to be the one relying on a sense of dogmatic 'it's us against them!' reasoning, which is the only way I can figure that you'd arrive at the conclusion I do.
Gandalf wrote: 2019-09-18 10:48pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 09:52pm Unbridled capitalism absolutely is as bad as you say. But considering that even countries like Norway FranceFinland Sweden Denmark the Netherlands Spain Belgium New Zealand Australia Japan Switzerland Canada Ireland and Great Britain (which have successfully implemented Soviet ideals) operate in tandem with capitalist elements.

Some degree of competition is healthy. The problem is that capitalism has devolved to the point where just like communism it monopolizes and stifles actual competition.
Fun fact: There was competition in the USSR. But if you'd like to discuss it, there's a thread going on already.

So maybe address my questions?
Also the mere fact that you wrote off all billionaires as evil monsters? That is EXACTLY what a communist does. You've pretty consistently endorsed the idea that capitalism is evil, that the western world is inherently evil/colonialist and that anyone who takes issue with your claims is a fool.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like duck......
Call McCarthy! The Reds are emerging from under the bed!
Oh fuck you. KA might be an idiot but he’s not actively engaged in treason or any attempt to topple a government. He wants communism to come in through peaceful means. It’s a stupid idea but perfectly harmless. McCarthy was against people having opinions and equated that with plotting.....which is stupid.

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Some socialist elements work. The postal service is socialist. Socialized medicine has also done wonders. Pure capitalism is indeed a destructive idealogy. But so is pure communism and you can’t seem to acknowledge that
ITT: Crybaby Pisspants can't read and thinks 'the reds are under the bed!' was about KA, not his own ridiculous communism ad hom against another poster.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Darth Yan »

1.) The guy said that ALL billionaires are monsters who exploit others. What am I supposed to make of that? I freely admitted American capitalism is bad (why the hell do you think I said that the best countries provide both?).

2.) there’s no point in debating you. People far better at debating than me have done that and you basically dodged what they said like a cowardly child (pretty much the entire decolonization thread). When I was in college one of my professors was a communist (and no she proudly owned that label.) Thing is she understood nuance far better than you.

3.) you also ignored my point about how Nima shirazi’s points were undermined when he claimed that the negative portrayal of teachers unions on law and order was anti union even though teachers unions like police unions have horrible track records. I’ll take your refusal to address that as a concession

That you resort to calling me Crybaby Pisspants just shows that you’re an idiot who thinks everything is big and simple. My points about decolonization was that you have a general habit that manifests repeatedly no matter what thread you’re on.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Zinegata »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 11:53pm 1.) The guy said that ALL billionaires are monsters who exploit others. What am I supposed to make of that? I freely admitted American capitalism is bad (why the hell do you think I said that the best countries provide both?).
1. They mostly are. That's what happens in a zero sum game of "winners" and "losers". That enormous effort and PR must be expended to self-rationalize this into a species of "intelligence" rather than greed really points to how people need to get over their own power fantasies.

2. My point is that your criticism of American capitalism is wrong because you don't understand that the "competition" it supposedly injects into the system is largely a myth. Being a monopoly is in itself not the problem. Monopolies in fact make for more efficient industries, but the potential for abuse is precisely why they must be heavily regulated.

Why build three power plants providing three times the power actually needed by the city? Shouldn't you just build one power plant - therefore expending only exactly the needed amount of resources to supply a city - and just heavily monitor the power company to ensure it is not abusing the consumer?
3.) you also ignored my point about how Nima shirazi’s points were undermined when he claimed that the negative portrayal of teachers unions on law and order was anti union even though teachers unions like police unions have horrible track records. I’ll take your refusal to address that as a concession
Blaming unions is frankly reductive. Its capitalists not wanting to admit they have bad management practices and believe that the ability to fire / hire at will is the actual constraint to a productive work force. It's more power fantasy arguments, based on too much belief in Donald Trump-style "You're Fired" management techniques.
(pretty much the entire decolonization thread). When I was in college one of my professors was a communist (and no she proudly owned that label.) Thing is she understood nuance far better than you.
And we have labeling exercises on top of whataboutism. This is really the microcosm of the American mental self-delusion.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by loomer »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-18 11:53pm 1.) The guy said that ALL billionaires are monsters who exploit others. What am I supposed to make of that? I freely admitted American capitalism is bad (why the hell do you think I said that the best countries provide both?).

2.) there’s no point in debating you. People far better at debating than me have done that and you basically dodged what they said like a cowardly child (pretty much the entire decolonization thread). When I was in college one of my professors was a communist (and no she proudly owned that label.) Thing is she understood nuance far better than you.

That you resort to calling me Crybaby Pisspants just shows that you’re an idiot who thinks everything is big and simple. My points about decolonization was that you have a general habit that manifests repeatedly no matter what thread you’re on.
In other words, you're a gutless wonder can barely read, who refuses an actual debate and who can't defend his own positions. I'll treat you appropriately from now on, crybaby pisspants. I'm also happy to tackle any of the people you claim are 'far better at debating than you' again, but unsurprisingly, they all failed to dislodge me from my positions because their arguments were also incoherent, just like yours - though I'll agree with you, crybaby pisspants, that at least unlike yourself they understood that a position needs to be defended and not merely asserted.

As for why I'm calling you crybaby pisspants? It's not because I think everything is big and simple (indeed, I think I probably pay far more attention to the details and nuances of life than you do. For instance, I don't think the Communist Manifesto is the be all and end all of Marxism, unlike yourself!) but rather because it's an accurate summation of how you act. You cry about human nature and how everyone else is an idealist while advancing an idiotic argument, then piss your pants and run away when challenged to actually defend your corner. You are, in fact, a crybaby pisspants - so either get used to the label or stand your corner in debate. If you don't feel competent enough to stand your corner, stop advancing the argument in the first place.

You also have a very bad habit of editing in entire new arguments after you post, but let's address the one you tried to slip by:
3.) you also ignored my point about how Nima shirazi’s points were undermined when he claimed that the negative portrayal of teachers unions on law and order was anti union even though teachers unions like police unions have horrible track records. I’ll take your refusal to address that as a concession
A concession would require that I was at any point contending the issue. I was not. This isn't the first time you've misunderstood how debate - and indeed ordinary conversation works, crybaby pisspants. I don't have a particular stake in whether the portrayal of teachers unions is accurate or anti-union and have made no comments on the issue precisely because I don't feel I know enough about the state of America's teachers unions to offer an informed opinion, let alone an argument - and thus, I have nothing to concede, no claim to abandon, and no argument to admit was mistaken. Your attempt at a little final grandstand here is thus as hollow and devoid of value as everything else you shit out and mistakenly believe to be a valid opinion. No doubt you'll confuse this in the echo chamber you call a brain for more of my 'dodging'.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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Uh my professor openly owned the communism label. She was and probably still is PROUD to be called that. Thing is she was also highly intelligent and fair. I made clear I disagreed with her and she still gave me a high score in class and was willing to act as a reference.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

If you were any more full of shit you’d explode. Your entire argument in the decolonization thread was empty platitudes and saying that assuming that not everyone would abide by whatever genius settlement was proposed was racist (as was the idea that old tribal tensions might explode into violence.) you openly misrepresented Broomstick’s position and than lied about it because she wouldn’t address that bundjalung nonsense while you were still bitching about it 14 pages on.

You aren’t nuanced. You think “White Western bad non white non western good”. You ignore that while communist idealogy might have been discussed at its core no the communist manifesto IS there. You ignore how many economic powerhouses have communist ELEMENTS while those that went full communist inevitably collapsed or wound up incorporating capitalist ideals.

You are not an intellectual. You’re an idiot
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Zinegata »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-19 12:18am Uh my professor openly owned the communism label. She was and probably still is PROUD to be called that. Thing is she was also highly intelligent and fair. I made clear I disagreed with her and she still gave me a high score in class and was willing to act as a reference.
Uh, who cares? All you’re doing is claiming some professor gave you a high grade. Thats just appeal to authority and no substitute for you not making any winning arguments.

Indeed if you understood the school system better you’d realize thick-skulled students like you have to be given high scores they don’t deserve, otherwise they might have their evaluations dragged down. Its what happen when you let whining be a substitute for critical thinking.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by loomer »

Darth Yan wrote: 2019-09-19 12:18am https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

If you were any more full of shit you’d explode. Your entire argument in the decolonization thread was empty platitudes and saying that assuming that not everyone would abide by whatever genius settlement was proposed was racist (as was the idea that old tribal tensions might explode into violence.) you openly misrepresented Broomstick’s position and than lied about it because she wouldn’t address that bundjalung nonsense while you were still bitching about it 14 pages on.

You aren’t nuanced. You think “White Western bad non white non western good”. You ignore that while communist idealogy might have been discussed at its core no the communist manifesto IS there. You ignore how many economic powerhouses have communist ELEMENTS while those that went full communist inevitably collapsed or wound up incorporating capitalist ideals.

You are not an intellectual. You’re an idiot
Learn to use quote, crybaby pisspants.

Again, I'm not interested in relitigating the decolonization thread here. If you want to, start one, otherwise, shut the fuck up. If you think it's evident that I think 'White Western bad non white non western good', prove it. It should be easy enough if you feel confident advancing the claim - or is this another of your assertions that you'll refuse to defend, all while squalling about how other people 'misrepresent' and 'dodge' and 'evade'. Hey, here's an idea - maybe that's your own projection issues coming out because you're an incompetent debater.

Let's consider point two. Do I ignore that the communist manifesto exists? No - and you'd be hard pressed to show otherwise. My position is this: The communist manifesto is a pamphlet that was hurried off to spread the ideas during a year of revolutionary fervour, not the sum of all Marxist thought. It is expressly contradicted elsewhere in Marx's work in places and it's widely acknowledged by both pro- and anti-Marxists that it's really not the best guide to Marxism of any stripe - any claim of which I'm happy to back up. Your position seems to boil down to 'yeah but it exists and therefore because of [...] (which you don't show or prove) it is the best summation of marxism and therefore Darth Wong's critique of it is all that I need to point to'. Nor do I ignore, as you assert, that 'many economic powerhouses have communist elements [but full communism always fails]. Again, you'd be hard pressed to show where I do, but I get the sense that inserting arguments into your opponents mouths is a vital part of your argumentative style, crybaby pisspants. I again wonder if your screeching about ignorance and ignoring things is projection from your own manifest failings as a thinker.

You are not an intellectual. You are a crybaby pisspants, and if you tried any of the nonsense you try here in one of my classes, you'd be laughed out of the room and given a fail grade - or quite possibly taken aside to be asked what help you need because something must be going wrong for you. I can only hope the standard of your academic work was higher, because otherwise that communist professor's judgment is highly questionable and I hate when that happens. It devalues every other higher education degree when fuckwit muppets get handed high grades they don't earn.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

Post by Xisiqomelir »

This is a delightful thread.

Check out the strings attached to the Foundation's "humanitarian" efforts in Africa.
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Re: Bill Gates, not as benevolent as he likes to portray himself

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I'm curious what part of Australian industry has communist elements, incidentally, but unfortunately I doubt Yan will enlighten us with his stellar wisdom about communism and Australia. Probably for the best, as he may have confused the Red Kangaroo for some kind of particularly effective Bolshevik Unionist movement (side note, I now know what I'm calling any communist group I start if I convert to that ideology!) It's also entirely possible he means some other 'economic powerhouses' than the bizarre rambling list of countries he dropped earlier but it's hard to tell with someone so utterly incoherent and scattershot.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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