Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 02:55am

In the latest escalation of its crimes against humanity, the Trump Regime argued that it does not have to provide detained migrants with tooth brushes, soap, or blankets.

The best comment on this came from journalist and former hostage Michael Scott Moore:
Michael Scott Moore wrote:Somali pirates gave me toothpaste & soap
https://www.newsweek.com/ex-hostage-tru ... ap-1445409
Journalist and author Michael Scott Moore has suggested that his treatment at the hands of Somali pirates who held him hostage was, at least in some ways, better than how President Donald Trump's administration thinks migrants should be treated.

Moore, who was held by Somali pirates from January 2012 to September 2014 for a total of 977 days, called out the Trump administration in a Saturday tweet. In his post, the author, who wrote a memoir about his time in captivity entitled The Desert and the Sea, shared a link to a NowThis video of a lawyer for Trump's Justice Department arguing in court that the administration should not be required to provide basic sanitary products, such as a toothbrush and soap, or blankets to detained migrants.

"Somali pirates gave me toothpaste & soap," Moore pointed out in his caption above the video.

Somali pirates gave me toothpaste & soap. https://t.co/K8zCP3IVMm

— Michael Scott Moore (@MichaelSctMoore) June 22, 2019
After the post went viral, Moore went back and added several tweets to create a thread providing further context.

In one of them, he shared a link to what he considers "the best short essay on America's border camps." That essay is titled: "Some Suburb of Hell: America's New Concentration Camp System." The former hostage also shared a link to donate money to a nonprofit providing legal assistance to immigrant families and children.

The Justice Department's Sarah Fabian argued on Tuesday of last week that creating "safe and sanitary" conditions for detained migrants did not mean that the Trump administration had to provide them with toothbrushes, towels and other basic products. The judges listening to her arguments appeared taken aback by the suggestion.

"If you don't have a toothbrush, if you don't have soap, if you don't have a blanket, it's not safe and sanitary," Senior U.S. Circuit Judge A. Wallace Tashima stated. "Wouldn't everybody agree to that?" he asked.

Last week, progressive Democratic Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ramped up her criticism of the administration's hardline immigration policies as well, referring to the detention centers as concentration camps. Although many right-wing pundits and politicians blasted the congresswoman for using a term most often associated with the Holocaust of World War II, many other jumped to her defense, while also using the term to criticize the camps holding migrants.

The hashtag #CloseTheCamps was trending this weekend, with many social media users calling on the administration to shutter the controversial facilities.

"It's child abuse, it's indefensible, and we cannot wring our hands out of discomfort with the reality of the situation," Ocasio-Cortez wrote on Twitter on Friday. "We must have the courage to see this for what it is."

Actress Patricia Arquette also tweeted at the president: "how about you deal with your child abuse riddled detention centers? Get those kids, diapers, toothpaste and toothbrushes, showers, hair brushes, food that is healthy. Blankets and Matresses, toilets, showers and clean clothes. NOW"
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 03:20am

I keep thinking of Lady Olenna's line to Cersei on Game of Thrones:
Lady Olenna wrote:I wonder if you're the worst person I've ever met. At a certain age its hard to recall. But the truly vile do stand out through the years.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2710
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Tribble » 2019-06-26 09:16am

IIRC around half of Republicans believe separating children from their parents and throwing them into concentration camps was a good idea. Something like 15% thought that wasn’t going “far enough”’which presumably is the shoot them on sight crowd.

Think Trump is bad? He’s just a symptom, and a bumbling ineffectual one at that. As nasty as he is it’s all about playing to the base and satisfying his own ego, which is why he’ll change his mind at the drop of a hat. Wait until the real hard core ones take office.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 05:49pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-06-26 09:16am
IIRC around half of Republicans believe separating children from their parents and throwing them into concentration camps was a good idea. Something like 15% thought that wasn’t going “far enough”’which presumably is the shoot them on sight crowd.

Think Trump is bad? He’s just a symptom, and a bumbling ineffectual one at that. As nasty as he is it’s all about playing to the base and satisfying his own ego, which is why he’ll change his mind at the drop of a hat. Wait until the real hard core ones take office.
He's both a cause and a symptom. He could never have gotten as far as he has if there wasn't a base of support for neo-fascism in America, but he has also fed it, legitimized it, normalized it, and moved it into the mainstream. Its like a Nazi feedback loop.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 07:49pm

Image
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3592
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Agent Fisher » 2019-06-26 08:25pm

Cause detaining people who illegally cross a border is the same as marching them into the ovens. Better fucking pick up a rifle then.

The fucking detention centers not having soap, toothbrushes or blankets is a serious fucking problem if they're holding people for longer than several hours before either releasing them or transferring them to a more long term holding location. But to fucking equate this Concentration Camps and the fucking Holocaust? Yep, tar every single fucking person who believes a country has the right to police it's borders as a nazi. Shit like this is gonna get Trump re-elected, because there are plenty of people who say 'I don't like the orange haired duche, but he's at least enforcing the laws the country has.' And the more of this calling anyone who doesn't lean left a nazi, yeah, that's gonna promote actual positive change.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15224
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-26 08:32pm

Nobody's disputing the "police the border" bit. It's the "locking children away in concentration camps" bit that's causing an issue.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3592
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Agent Fisher » 2019-06-26 08:48pm

Fair enough. I think the detention centers are being poorly run and the situation poorly handled, but I disagree with the label Concentration Camp being applied, as that immediately evokes imagery of the Holocaust and despite claims from certain voices, this isn't the ethnic cleansing of Latinos that they claim it is.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-26 08:54pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 08:25pm
Cause detaining people who illegally cross a border is the same as marching them into the ovens. Better fucking pick up a rifle then.

The fucking detention centers not having soap, toothbrushes or blankets is a serious fucking problem if they're holding people for longer than several hours before either releasing them or transferring them to a more long term holding location. But to fucking equate this Concentration Camps and the fucking Holocaust? Yep, tar every single fucking person who believes a country has the right to police it's borders as a nazi. Shit like this is gonna get Trump re-elected, because there are plenty of people who say 'I don't like the orange haired duche, but he's at least enforcing the laws the country has.' And the more of this calling anyone who doesn't lean left a nazi, yeah, that's gonna promote actual positive change.
As Gandalf noted, I'm not saying that wanting to "police the borders" makes you a Nazi. The fact that you would use such a strawman tells me right off the bat that you are either so defensive on this topic that you take any criticism of border policy as a personal attack (in which case, methinks he doth protest too much), or that you are debating in bad faith, trying to obfuscate the issue and turn the tables by attacking critics of what are frankly crimes against humanity. As does the fact that your first response to this inhumane treatment is to leap to the defense of those who support border security, not to the defense of the people being locked in concentration camps. That says something about your priorities, and who you believe is more in need and worthy of protection.

No, they're not literally herding people into gas chambers. Yet. But the Holocaust didn't start with people being spontaneously herded into gas chambers out of the blue. It began with a steady ramping up of cruelty, discrimination, and inhumanity, with small labour camps growing into factories of industrial-scale mass murder. And many of those who died were not gassed, but died of cruelty, neglect, disease and hunger.

If you wait until people are being herded into gas chambers by the millions, its too fucking late.

And in response to your second post, yes, I do think the "concentration camp" label applies. The Nazi death camps may be the most well-known concentration camps, but they are not the only valid use of the term. And yes, I do think this policy qualifies as ethnic cleansing. It is motivated primarily by racism, against a group which is predominantly of one ethnicity, with the goal of reducing their numbers in this country via forced detainment and deportation. For that matter, it is well-known that ICE often "accidentally" scoops up people who are hear legally- who can then have a hard time proving their innocence, as immigration courts don't really follow due process. Moreover, the Trump Regime is detaining lawful asylum seekers, so its not just targeting illegal immigrants. The ethnic cleansing label absolutely applies, and if that makes you uncomfortable, maybe you ought to be focussed on doing something to protest this injustice rather than pretending it isn't that bad. That way, when this is over, you won't have to be one of the people in the history books trying to convince themselves and others that they never knew what was happening.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15224
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-26 09:03pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 08:48pm
Fair enough. I think the detention centers are being poorly run and the situation poorly handled, but I disagree with the label Concentration Camp being applied, as that immediately evokes imagery of the Holocaust and despite claims from certain voices, this isn't the ethnic cleansing of Latinos that they claim it is.
Do you object to the label because you don't think it's accurate, or because you don't like the connotation?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3592
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Agent Fisher » 2019-06-26 09:13pm

I don't view them as concentration camps. I don't think it's accurate or like the connotation that the term brings. They are detention centers for people caught while illegally entering the United States. If they're rounding up illegal immigrants who have already entered and settled into the nation's communities and suburbs, sending them to those centers and keeping them there, then yes, they could be considered concentration camps, just like the Internment Camps of WW2 for Japanese descendants in the U.S. could be considered concentration camps. To label the detention centers as such is a clear attempt invoke the memory of the Holocaust and to bring those emotions to the fore front of discussions about them.

Edit: I think if we're going to complain about something, we need to be accurate about it and not try for hyperbole. The Detention Centers are a fucking mess and need to be sorted, but labeling them as Concentration Camps isn't going to help.

And TRR, no, it's not an ethnic cleansing. My sister in law isn't being rounded up for being Nicaraguan, none of her family is. My best friend, born to two illegal immigrants who've since obtained legal status in the US, isn't worried about being rounded up and sent packing and neither are his parents. My coworkers and friends who are from Latin America aren't worried. This isn't the mass round up, detainment, and deportation of anyone of the Latin American ethnicity, this is attempting to reduce the number of people who have, and are attempting to, illegally entered and settled in the country.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15224
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-26 09:35pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 09:13pm
I don't view them as concentration camps. I don't think it's accurate or like the connotation that the term brings. They are detention centers for people caught while illegally entering the United States. If they're rounding up illegal immigrants who have already entered and settled into the nation's communities and suburbs, sending them to those centers and keeping them there, then yes, they could be considered concentration camps, just like the Internment Camps of WW2 for Japanese descendants in the U.S. could be considered concentration camps. To label the detention centers as such is a clear attempt invoke the memory of the Holocaust and to bring those emotions to the fore front of discussions about them.
This article from Esquire really goes into why the title fits. It's too long to post, and I'm on my phone.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3592
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Agent Fisher » 2019-06-26 10:22pm

Broken link, but I got it figured. I admit that the detention centers can be considered to meet criteria that would label them as concentration camps in the historic sense of being detainment facilities for large groups pre-trial, but object to the use due to the current connotations of concentration camps in the cultural memory of the word.

To the average American, use the term 'concentration camp' and you immediately bring to mind the horrors of the Nazi concentration and death camps. And to the average American, they're not going to understand that a concentration camp can exist that isn't Auschwitz. They're going to hear AOC label the detention centers as concentration camps, think Aushwitz and dismiss her as being full of herself and blowing it way out of proportion.

This is not the mass round up of particular ethnic groups for detainment, this is the detainment of people illegally crossing the border. If you're going to have border laws that prohibit people from doing so, and are going to have deportation of those caught in the act, then you need to hold them somewhere prior to deportation.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15224
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-26 10:33pm

So it's the "Americans are idiots" defence for when stuff is correct but not pleasant to acknowledge?

Also, sorry for the busted link. This one should work. What it also raises is that it's not just "illegal immigrants" in these camps. There's American citizens, legal immigrants, asylum seekers, and so on.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Agent Fisher
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 3592
Joined: 2003-04-29 11:56pm
Location: Sac-Town, CA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way, Universe

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Agent Fisher » 2019-06-26 10:46pm

Yeah, it's the 'American's are idiots' defense for when you want to try and sway public opinion cause guess what, they're fucking idiots and you have to adjust the message to match their level.

The only mention of American citizens in the article is a link to a news report about two women speaking spanish and being detained by a CBE agent on scene, with the ACLU absolutely correctly suing the agency for the illegal detainment. And I did not see any reference to legal immigrants being sent to the detention centers.

The asylum seekers should be briefly detained, their information taken, a court date given and then released, as the data shows they overwhemingly show up for their court dates. I may disagree on just what should qualify for asylum, as I feel domestic violence is a stretch for refugee status, IE, I'm a victim of domestic violence and am thus entitled to claim asylum status in whatever country I choose.

User avatar
loomer
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3233
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am
Contact:

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by loomer » 2019-06-27 03:34am

I call my country's refugee detainment camps concentration camps, because that's what they are. If you get mad that your country is engaging in the kind of conduct that can be described as such, be mad at the conduct - not the label.
"You're wonderful, and you're alive, and you deserve every little bit of happiness that the universe has to offer anyone, no matter who or what you like. Never forget that." - Achewood

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-27 03:43am

Indeed. Its an ugly truth to face, but it won't go away because you don't face it. All that not facing it does is make you personally culpable in covering it up and condoning it.
Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 09:13pm
I don't view them as concentration camps. I don't think it's accurate or like the connotation that the term brings. They are detention centers for people caught while illegally entering the United States. If they're rounding up illegal immigrants who have already entered and settled into the nation's communities and suburbs, sending them to those centers and keeping them there, then yes, they could be considered concentration camps, just like the Internment Camps of WW2 for Japanese descendants in the U.S. could be considered concentration camps. To label the detention centers as such is a clear attempt invoke the memory of the Holocaust and to bring those emotions to the fore front of discussions about them.

Edit: I think if we're going to complain about something, we need to be accurate about it and not try for hyperbole. The Detention Centers are a fucking mess and need to be sorted, but labeling them as Concentration Camps isn't going to help.
Its not merely that they are a "mess". They are, by the admission of administration officials, designed to be cruel as a "deterrent", and conditions there have reached a point where it is causing children to die:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr ... rs-n954781

Which isn't counting all the people who die trying to cross the border, or will die when they get shipped back to situations of extreme poverty and violence, or the many traumatized children who will undoubtably commit suicide some years down the road due to the life-long mental health issues these camps will leave them with, even if they are one day freed. And yes, some of these atrocities predate the Trump administration- but Trump has done nothing to resolve them and has often deliberately acted to make them worse.
And TRR, no, it's not an ethnic cleansing. My sister in law isn't being rounded up for being Nicaraguan, none of her family is. My best friend, born to two illegal immigrants who've since obtained legal status in the US, isn't worried about being rounded up and sent packing and neither are his parents. My coworkers and friends who are from Latin America aren't worried. This isn't the mass round up, detainment, and deportation of anyone of the Latin American ethnicity, this is attempting to reduce the number of people who have, and are attempting to, illegally entered and settled in the country.
Ethnic Cleansing definition as per Google:

"the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society"

Now, that the primary motivation of Trump's border policy is racism and xenophobia is unquestionable. All the crap about saving jobs or saving money or immigrants committing crimes is so much bullshit, as statistics have shown repeatedly that migrants have lower crime rates than the general populace, and that we actually benefit economically from immigration. This is certainly a policy of mass expulsion, and as conditions become more and more deliberately inhumane and dangerous, it is moving quickly towards becoming an (unspoken, at least in public) policy of mass killing.

And from a UN website (I underlined the most pertinent sections):

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreventio ... sing.shtml
Ethnic Cleansing
Background

Ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law. The term surfaced in the context of the 1990’s conflict in the former Yugoslavia and is considered to come from a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian expression “etničko čišćenje”. However, the precise roots of the term or who started using it and why are still uncertain.

The expression “ethnic cleansing” has been used in resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, and has been acknowledged in judgments and indictments of the ICTY, although it did not constitute one of the counts for prosecution. A definition was never provided.

Definition
As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.

The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”
Your defense, such as it is, is apparently that its only targeting illegal immigrants, not Latinos generally. But its been clearly shown that that is not the case, that lawful asylum seekers and legal residents are often targeted, and again, the motive is very clearly at least to reduce the growth of the Latino population in America.

It should be noted that I use the term "ethnic cleansing" in lieu of the even more loaded term "genocide", though I feel that that term might also be applicable (underlining mine, again):

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Genocide
Background

The word “genocide” was first coined by Polish lawyer Raphäel Lemkin in 1944 in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe. It consists of the Greek prefix genos, meaning race or tribe, and the Latin suffix cide, meaning killing. Lemkin developed the term partly in response to the Nazi policies of systematic murder of Jewish people during the Holocaust, but also in response to previous instances in history of targeted actions aimed at the destruction of particular groups of people. Later on, Raphäel Lemkin led the campaign to have genocide recognised and codified as an international crime.

Genocide was first recognised as a crime under international law in 1946 by the United Nations General Assembly (A/RES/96-I). It was codified as an independent crime in the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (the Genocide Convention). The Convention has been ratified by 149 States (as of January 2018). The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has repeatedly stated that the Convention embodies principles that are part of general customary international law. This means that whether or not States have ratified the Genocide Convention, they are all bound as a matter of law by the principle that genocide is a crime prohibited under international law. The ICJ has also stated that the prohibition of genocide is a peremptory norm of international law (or ius cogens) and consequently, no derogation from it is allowed.

The definition of the crime of genocide as contained in Article II of the Genocide Convention was the result of a negotiating process and reflects the compromise reached among United Nations Member States in 1948 at the time of drafting the Convention. Genocide is defined in the same terms as in the Genocide Convention in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (Article 6), as well as in the statutes of other international and hybrid jurisdictions. Many States have also criminalized genocide in their domestic law; others have yet to do so.

Definition
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Elements of the crime
The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”
The main difficulty would be in proving intent to destroy, at least in part, the immigrant population, as opposed to simply relocate them. However, it should be noted again that this is actually a fairly narrow definition of genocide. For example, various politicians and organizations have recently determined that the systemic mistreatment of First Nations people in Canada, and the resulting high murder rates of First Nations women in particular, constitute genocide.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10331
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Elfdart » 2019-07-05 12:48am

Anyone getting all trembly with rage because Ocasio-Cortez rightly referred to these kennels as concentration camps needs to try a stronger laxative. The camps used to hold Japanese-Americans during WW2 weren't nearly as awful as the cages in these Trumpvilles (they had beds, showers and soap, for example), yet everyone from Francis Biddle to Earl Warren to Douglas MacArthur called them CONCENTRATION CAMPS. If the jackboot fits, wear it.

This kind of sadistic abuse of people crossing the border (legally or not), as well as Mexican-Americans already living in the US, has a long and ghastly history in south Texas. The late, great Alexander Cockburn described it in detail back in 2007:
Zyklon B on the US Border

A grim history lesson of what happened in the 1920s when fears of alien infection inflamed American eugenicists.
By Alexander Cockburn
June 21, 2007

Zyklon B arrived in El Paso in the 1920s courtesy of the US government. In 1929, for example, a Public Health Service officer, J.R. Hurley, ordered $25 worth of the material–hydrocyanic acid in pellet form–as a fumigating agent for use at the El Paso delousing station, where Mexicans crossed the border from Juárez. Zyklon, developed by Degesch (short for the German vermin-combating corporation), was made in varying strengths, with Zyklon C, D and E representing gradations in potency and price. As Raul Hilberg describes it in The Destruction of the European Jews, “strength E was required for the eradication of specially resistant vermin, such as cockroaches, or for gassings in wooden barracks. The ‘normal’ preparation, D, was used to exterminate lice, mice, or rats in large, well-built structures containing furniture. Human organisms in gas chambers were killed with Zyklon B.” In 1929 Degesch divided the Zyklon market with an American corporation, Cyanamid, so Hurley likely got his shipment from the latter.

As David Dorado Romo describes it in his marvelous Ringside Seat to a Revolution: An Underground History of El Paso and Juárez: 1893-1923 (Cinco Puntos Press, El Paso), Zyklon B became available in the United States when, in the early 1920s, fears of alien infection were being inflamed by the alarums of the eugenicists, most of them political “progressives.” In 1917 Congress passed, and President Wilson–an ardent eugenicist and pro-sterilizer–signed, the Immigration Act. The Public Health Service simultaneously published its Manual for the Physical Inspection of Aliens.

The manual had its list of excludables from the US of A, a ripe representation of the obsessions of the eugenicists: “imbeciles, idiots, feeble-minded persons, persons of constitutional psychopathic inferiority [homosexuals], vagrants, physical defectives…anarchists, persons afflicted with loathsome or dangerous contagious diseases…all aliens over 16 who cannot read.” In that same year Public Health Service agents “bathed and deloused” 127,123 Mexicans at the bridge between Juárez and El Paso.

The mayor of El Paso at the time, Tom Lea Sr., represented, in Romo’s words, “the new type of Anglo politician in the ‘Progressive Era.'” For Lea, “progressive” meant a Giuliani-style cleanup of the city. He had a visceral fear of contamination and, so his son later disclosed, wore silk underwear because his friend, one Doc Kluttz, had told him typhus lice don’t stick to silk. His loins thus protected, Lea battered the US government with demands for a quarantine camp on the border where the Feds could protect El Paso from typhus by holding all immigrants for fourteen days. Health officer B.J. Lloyd thought this outlandish, telling the surgeon general that typhus fever “is not now and probably never will be, a serious menace to our civilian population.”

Lea sent his health cops into the city’s Mexican quarter, forcing inhabitants suspected of harboring lice to take kerosene and vinegar baths and have their heads shaved and clothes incinerated. After barging into 5,000 rooms, inspectors found only two cases of typhus, one of rheumatism, one of TB and one of chicken pox.

Though Lloyd opposed a quarantine, he did urge delousing for “all the dirty, lousy people coming into this country from Mexico.” His facility was ready for business just as the Immigration Act became law. Soon Mexicans were being stripped and daubed with kerosene, their clothes fumigated with gasoline, kerosene, sodium cyanide, cyanogens, sulfuric acid and Zyklon B. The El Paso Herald wrote respectfully in 1920, “Hydrocyanic acid gas, the most poisonous known, more deadly even than that used on the battlefields of Europe, is employed in the fumigation process.”

The delousing operations provoked fury and resistance among Mexicans still boiling with indignation after a lethal gasoline blaze in the city jail some months earlier. As part of Mayor Lea’s citywide disinfection campaign, prisoners’ clothes were dumped in a bath filled with a mixture of gasoline, creosote and formaldehyde. Then the prisoners were forced, naked, into a second bath filled with “a bucket of gasoline, a bucket of coal oil and a bucket of vinegar.” On the afternoon of March 5, 1916, someone struck a match. The jail went up like a torch. The Herald reported that about fifty “naked prisoners from whose bodies the fumes of gasoline were arising” caught fire. Twenty-seven died. In late January 1917, 200 Mexican women rebelled at the border, prompting a riot and putting to flight police and troops on both sides.

Now, Zyklon B is fatal when absorbed through the skin in concentrations of more than fifty parts per million. How many Mexicans, many crossing daily, suffered agonies or died after putting on those poisoned garments? Through oral histories, Romo has documented cancers, birth defects and deaths that he estimates could go into the tens of thousands and yet, as he told a reporter, “This is a huge black hole in history.”

The use of Zyklon B on the US-Mexico border was a matter of interest to the firm of Degesch. In 1938 Dr. Gerhard Peters wrote an article in a German pest science journal, Anzeiger für Schädlingskunde, which called for its use in German Desinfektionskammern and featured photos of El Paso’s delousing chambers. Peters went on to become the managing director of Degesch, which supplied Zyklon B to the Nazi death camps. He was tried and convicted at Nuremberg. (In 1955, he was retried and found not guilty.)

In the United States, the eugenicists rolled on to their great triumph, the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924, much admired by Hitler, which would doom millions in Europe to their final rendezvous with Zyklon B twenty years later. By the late 1940s, the eugenicists were mostly discredited, but the Restriction Act, that monument to racism, bad science and do-gooders, stayed on the books unchanged for forty years.

In 1918 disease did leap across the El Paso border. Romo quotes a letter from Dr. John Tappan, who had disinfected thousands of Mexicans. “10,000 cases in El Paso and the Mexicans died like sheep. Whole families were exterminated.” This was “Spanish” flu, which originated in Haskell County, Kansas.
Let's hear some more about how it's so unfair to liken Trump's regime to other fascist regimes.
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

--Matt Taibbi

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-05 01:01am

And meanwhile, Canada continues to recognize the United States as a "safe third country", meaning we won't accept refugees who try to come over the US border.

If the Cons weren't worse on this and pretty much every other issue, that alone would be enough to make me turn my back on Justin Trudeau forever. As it is, I'm glad I live in a riding where its going to be either NDP or Green, so I don't have to suck it up and vote for the lesser evil.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26536
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-07-05 05:44pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 09:13pm
I don't view them as concentration camps. I don't think it's accurate or like the connotation that the term brings. They are detention centers for people caught while illegally entering the United States.
Well.... except for the detail that a definite portion of them asked for ASYLUM which is a legal act (or supposed to be) and not a crime, and therefore WERE locked up for no good goddamned reason.

Also, even if they adults were breaking the law we should not be locking kids up in cages, or making them sleep on concrete floors, for what their parents did

AND - even if adults were breaking the law it would be ILLEGAL to hold convicted felons in standing-room only conditions for days at a time, deny them food and water, and make them sleep on bare concrete, much less people who have never been in front of a judge, much less convicted of what they are accused of doing.

Or weren't you aware of the above?
To label the detention centers as such is a clear attempt invoke the memory of the Holocaust and to bring those emotions to the fore front of discussions about them.
Indeed. It is in the hope of preventing death camps that I call these "detention centers" concentration camps. Because that's where this is headed if it's not stopped. I don't think it will be a direct repeat of what was seen in WWII under the Nazis, but so what? "Not as bad as Dachau" is the epitome of damning with faint praise. The other, non-death-camp concentration camps in WWII were also unacceptable, too.
Edit: I think if we're going to complain about something, we need to be accurate about it and not try for hyperbole. The Detention Centers are a fucking mess and need to be sorted, but labeling them as Concentration Camps isn't going to help.
Fuck your delicate sensibilities - they ARE concentration camps. Don't drink the Koo-Aid about "concentration camp" and "Nazi death camp" being the same thing. I am not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings on this issue. It's a humanitarian emergency and it needs to be stopped.
And TRR, no, it's not an ethnic cleansing. My sister in law isn't being rounded up for being Nicaraguan, none of her family is. My best friend, born to two illegal immigrants who've since obtained legal status in the US, isn't worried about being rounded up and sent packing and neither are his parents. My coworkers and friends who are from Latin America aren't worried. This isn't the mass round up, detainment, and deportation of anyone of the Latin American ethnicity, this is attempting to reduce the number of people who have, and are attempting to, illegally entered and settled in the country.
Yep, the ethnic cleansing of French Vichy regime started with "illegals" and non-citizens, too.

Then they took away the citizenship of thousands of naturalized French people.

Don't make me quote Niemöller at you.

Were you aware that the Trump administration has something called the "Operation Janus" a.k.a. "Operation Second Look" reviewing 700,000 US naturalizations to see who they can strip of citizenship?

I don't like where this is going and I refuse to soft-pedal the issue or engage in creative euphemisms.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26536
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-07-05 05:53pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 10:22pm
This is not the mass round up of particular ethnic groups for detainment, this is the detainment of people illegally crossing the border.
Funny that - if these are for the "rounding up" of people in the US illegally where are the Chinese folks who snuck in? The Polish, the Czech, heck, we have Canadians who are here without permission, why do we never see any of those folks in these concentration camps, hmm? Latinos are only the largest group of immigrants here without permission, they certainly aren't the only ones. But, funny... it only seems to be people who fit the profile of "Latin American" and speak Spanish as a first language...
If you're going to have border laws that prohibit people from doing so, and are going to have deportation of those caught in the act, then you need to hold them somewhere prior to deportation.
No... actually you don't.

Being in the US without permission is a misdemeanor, not a felony. We certainly didn't used to lock people up by the thousands in chain-link cages and concrete cells... and the group that DID do some bad damage to the US were here on legal student visas so I'm not convinced immigrants are inherently the bad guys here, I think the bad guys come in all sorts of flavors and some of them are even sophisticated enough to find a legal way here.

The Trump administration doesn't seem particularly eager to facilitate the processing of these folks. And, when it hit the news that there were problems with adequate supplies in these concentration camps they turned away donations of those supplies. So I doubt that the current administration gives a flying fuck about these people, or whether or not they suffer, or whether or not they ever see daylight again, and I fear that the few who do give a fuck give exactly the wrong sort of fuck, being more interested in causing suffering than solving a problem that is largely of their own making.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 26536
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Broomstick » 2019-07-05 05:54pm

Agent Fisher wrote:
2019-06-26 10:46pm
The asylum seekers should be briefly detained, their information taken, a court date given and then released, as the data shows they overwhemingly show up for their court dates.
The current problem is that that is NOT happening - asylum seekers on the US southern border are now routinely locked up. They Trump administration is treating them worse than prisons are allowed to treat convicted felons.

Please educate yourself better about his matter.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9520
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by Steve » 2019-07-07 05:44am

I understand what you're trying to do here, Fisher, and the fear that the wrong terms will simply cause people to ignore the issue on the view that Trump's opponents are exaggerating, but the sad fact is that the camps have pretty much become concentration camps as a deliberate means to deter people from even seeking asylum. The key isn't to softball it to attract the mythical moderate, it's to make the facts clear to the public.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

Admin of SFD, Moderator of SDN, Former Spacebattles Super-Mod, Veteran Chatnik

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19176
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Trump Regime denies migrant children soap, toothpaste, blankets.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-07 06:09am

I don't think there really is a moderate option on this issue. At most, there are people who aren't aware of the facts. Once you know what's happening... well, there are really only two sides: people who are okay with torturing children as long as they're brown/foreign, and people who aren't.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zxT8CM8XntA

Post Reply