"The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

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The Romulan Republic
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"The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -far-right
In the early summer of 2017, US coast guard lieutenant Christopher Hasson had an idea. He had been trying to figure out an effective way of killing billions of people – “almost every last person on Earth” – but found himself coming up against the daunting logistics of such a task.

He suspected “a plague would be most successful”, but didn’t know how to get his hands on enough Spanish flu, botulism or anthrax. His idea, he wrote in a draft email from 2 June of that year, would be to “start with biological attacks followed by attack on food supply”. He acknowledged the plan needed more research.

While horrifying in their ambition, Hasson’s plans, gleaned from email drafts, are scatterbrained and bear the hallmarks of a person still trying to figure things out. His tentative plans, outlined mostly in emails to himself, were thwarted when he was arrested last month on firearms and drugs charges and investigators discovered his inner life as a neo-Nazi and his plans for mass murder – along with a huge cache of weapons and a hit list of prominent Democrats and media figures.

What is clear, however, is that Hasson was inspired by others who came before him, and that he is likely very far from alone.

Hasson is the product of both established traditions within white supremacist circles as well as new developments. He was at once inspired by old ideas and determined to go beyond them to create more havoc than any who had come before him.

The year and a half since the Unite the Right far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, ended in mayhem, the death of a protester and political turmoil, has been a rough time for the public facing and ostensibly political arm of the white supremacist movement in America. Those who marched in Charlottesville have to a large degree retreated, fleeing lawsuits, doxxing and personal scandal. Still, while public marches appear to be fewer and fewer, the period since Charlottesville has also been marred by individual episodes of extreme violence, suggesting that the wave of white supremacy that seemed to crest in Charlottesville is not so much receding as just changing in nature.

White supremacist groups clash with counter-protesters during Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia on 12 August 2017.
White supremacist groups clash with counter-protesters during Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia on 12 August 2017. Photograph: Michael N/Pacific/Barcroft Images
“I think what we’re starting to see now is people becoming more disheartened and disconnected from mainstream politics,” said Keegan Hankes.

Hankes is a researcher at the Southern Poverty Law Center monitoring group, and he says they have been following a spike in far-right violence. “We believe we can expect more violence as people become increasingly frustrated and unmoored,” he said.

Increased violence from far-right activists at a time when the administration is friendlier toward their goals is not without historical precedent, said the University of Chicago historian Kathleen Belew, the author of Bring the War Home: the White Power Movement and Paramilitary America. Belew explained that the far right’s affinity for Donald Trump might mean more violence during his time in the White House, not less.

“The last time the movement underwent a major revolutionary turn was under the Reagan administration, during a moment of supposedly friendly state power,” she said.

“That means that whatever people think about the Trump administration’s reluctance to disavow certain types of white power organizing, this is not a moment when we’d expect to see happiness in the fringe. We’re talking about a movement in which many activists want the overthrow of the federal government, the reinstatement of slavery, the genocide of all people of color and a white homeland. These aren’t things that can be pursued politically, even with a sympathetic administration.”

I think what we’re starting to see now is people becoming more disheartened and disconnected from mainstream politics
A report published by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in January supports Belew and Hankes’ assertions. According to the study, every single extremist murder in the US in 2018 had links to far-right ideology, making it one of the deadliest years in recent history. While some of these links were tenuous – the shooter behind the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school had no direct contact with extremist groups but had been known to make racist, white supremacist statements – the numbers paint a picture of a movement that is finding new, violent outlets for its extremism. Some of the incidents – such as a mass shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue – sent shockwaves through the whole country.

“It’s clearly gathering steam,” said JM Berger, an expert on extremism and research scholar at Vox-Pol. “Success breeds success, and we’re seeing people operationalize the self-education process. People are beginning to understand that they can emulate the actions of someone who went before them to work out whatever they want to work out.”

According to documents filed in the investigation of Hasson, he was not only inspired by terrorists who came before him – he is deeply influenced by Norwegian mass-murderer Anders Behring Breivik – but also driven by a loathing for what he perceives as Trump’s enemies as well as a paranoid fear that Trump will be removed from power.

This certainty that evil forces are working against Trump has become prevalent within the far right, breeding conspiracies such as QAnon, which posits Trump is fighting a “deep state” conspiracy that seeks to thwart his patriotic agenda. As such, Trump plays a dual role within the world of rightwing violence: while a “sympathetic” administration can spur a rise in violence, the perceived persecution of Trump – in large part an image created by the president himself – can fuel the paranoid and violent fantasies of people like Hasson.

Both ideas can breed violence, especially if Trump is defeated in the 2020 elections.

A far-right protester takes part in a Patriot Prayer rally in Portland, Oregon on 4 August 2018.
A far-right protester takes part in a Patriot Prayer rally in Portland, Oregon on 4 August 2018. Photograph: Kainoa Little/SOPA Images/REX/Shutterstock
“What we’ve seen in the Trump-era is that a lot of the people on the fringes see opportunities for political engagement where they didn’t see it before,” said Berger. “The question is: what happens when that window closes?”

Coupled with increased frustration by the limitations of political engagement comes the rise of more terroristic groups such as Atomwaffen Division, a militant neo-Nazi group linked to several murders. They and others have brought a less hierarchical and more disorderly structure to white supremacist activism, which makes them both harder to track and to control. Known as “leaderless resistance”, it has been a tactic of white supremacists for decades and lead to events such as the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, but has been made exponentially easier by the internet.

“Leaderless resistance totally changes recruitment strategy,” said Belew.

“No longer is the movement trying to generate a mass protest of uniformed members. This movement isn’t interested in a crowd but in a dedicated cell of 12 people that are going to devote their lives to guerrilla warfare.”

US hate groups have seen ideas enter mainstream in Trump era, report finds
Historically the strategy of leaderless resistance was once confined to the extreme fringes of the white power movement, attracting terrorists such as Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh, Breivik, Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof and others, but recently parts of the movement who have been considered moderate have also embraced the idea.

“Leaderless resistance is becoming ubiquitous on the far right,” says Hankes. “Normally these things come from the extreme parts of the movement and the fact that it is showing up elsewhere shows how deep set these ideas are and how disillusioned the movement is with the White House.”

It is uncertain if Hasson would have acted out his plans of mass murder. “Fantasies of violence occur far more often than violent plots,” said Mark Pitcavage, an analyst of rightwing groups for the ADL. “Which of these categories does Hasson fall into?”

Michael German, a former FBI agent who went undercover with white supremacist groups in the 1990s and who now works as a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice, agreed. “We really don’t know much about [Hasson], since there is very little in the public record. The key will be if he had co-conspirators or associations with people outside and if they were aware of his intentions,” he said.

Still, German was not surprised by Hasson’s plot or that he had been concocting it while on active duty. “We know that there’s significant illegal activity happening that the government needs to be aware of, the problem is that the government isn’t collecting information about it in a way that lets us assess how widespread the problem is. The FBI has had concerns about white supremacist activity within the military and law enforcement for a long time, but there’s little evidence of investigations into it.”

What remains an almost certainty is that Hasson is not alone in his desire to commit atrocities for white supremacist objectives. Others are still out there: armed, dangerous and plotting. Some will likely turn their thoughts into actions.

“My guess is that there are thousands like him,” said Belew. “These people are ideologically connected and preparing similar acts of violence.”
In short, the Alt. Reich is going down the same road radical Islamic terrorism has- focusing less or large organizations or political movements, and more or lone extremist terrorist attacks inspired over the internet.

The problem is that there are far more radical Right-wingers than radical Muslims in the US, and that they have far more people in power willing to turn a blind eye to them if not actively egg them on. Can you imagine the Republican response if Obama had responded to an ISIS attack by saying "there are good people on both sides"?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Also, the infiltration of the military and law enforcement is obviously very concerning, both because it gives these lunatics access to weapons/training/intelligence, and because if any of them work their way up to a high rank, then they'll be able to act to help Trump suppress any attempt (lawfully or otherwise) to remove him from office.

Remember: if this comes to having to remove Trump from office by force, the outcome will be determined by who most of the military/intelligence/law enforcement side with, not by militias.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by SolarpunkFan »

Well, that's just great. And there truly is nothing I can do outside of voting (I can't go to protests as I can neither drive nor afford public transit).
Seeing current events as they are is wrecking me emotionally. So I say 'farewell' to this forum. For anyone who wonders.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

SolarpunkFan wrote: 2019-05-28 06:19pm Well, that's just great. And there truly is nothing I can do outside of voting (I can't go to protests as I can neither drive nor afford public transit).
Vote, and write/call legislators to demand that they prioritize rooting out white nationalist infiltrators in the armed forces and law enforcement. Its not much, but every little bit helps right now.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

On the subject of white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement I was recently at a gang conference in which they spoke about that in great detail. Basically, the conference consisted of a review of typical white supremacist lingo, signs, tattoos, and then a list of resources to use/contact.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

... and people wonder why I'm saying that things like privacy are going to vanish in the coming decades...

... because most people assume Rousseau is right and not Hobbes and Locke. The disproportionate damage that small groups (or individuals) can do has been steadily increasing, we've just been blind to it.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Privacy is already mostly gone. I've more or less made my peace with that.

Its your advocacy of sweeping media censorship that bothers me more. Because freedom of belief and expression is the foundation on which all other freedom, and much of human civilization, is built, and I perceive an inherent contradiction in "we need to abolish freedom in order to save it".

The question of how we preserve freedom in a high tech. world is one of the most important that we face. Its not easy to answer. But answer it we must, and if we fail, we're fucked.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by Zaune »

Here's a radical idea. Instead of making it illegal to express public support for a particular ideology, why don't we just make it illegal (as in "actual jail time if it's sufficiently egregious" illegal) to make shit up and sell it as news?
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

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Zaune wrote: 2019-05-29 08:18am Here's a radical idea. Instead of making it illegal to express public support for a particular ideology, why don't we just make it illegal (as in "actual jail time if it's sufficiently egregious" illegal) to make shit up and sell it as news?
That sounds good in theory (we have laws against other forms of false advertising after all), but it obviously runs into the very tricky question of who defines what is real news, and how do they define it. For some things, that's pretty clear cut, but for other things... not so much. So you have extraordinary potential for abuse, to label controversial opinions, debated subjects, or new research/data as fake and jail people for reporting on it.

And again I say... does anyone really want THIS administration to have the power to jail people based on what they define as "real news"? That's got to be like Trump's wet dream (well, aside from fucking his daughter, I mean).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by FaxModem1 »

Well, they could always bring back the Fairness Doctrine that was killed by Reagan in the 1980s.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-29 08:22amThat sounds good in theory (we have laws against other forms of false advertising after all), but it obviously runs into the very tricky question of who defines what is real news, and how do they define it. For some things, that's pretty clear cut, but for other things... not so much. So you have extraordinary potential for abuse, to label controversial opinions, debated subjects, or new research/data as fake and jail people for reporting on it.
I was thinking more along the lines of making it illegal to wilfully misrepresent what a source or interviewee actually says. If a scientific paper turns out to be based on faulty data or an eyewitness account turns out to have been exaggerated then that's on the source not the byline. I'm also fine with papers having a particular ideological stance that influences the tone of their reporting. What I believe needs to be stamped out with extreme prejudice is news media cherry-picking quotes, omitting facts that don't fit the chosen narrative and otherwise acting in bad faith in order to push a political agenda.
And again I say... does anyone really want THIS administration to have the power to jail people based on what they define as "real news"? That's got to be like Trump's wet dream (well, aside from fucking his daughter, I mean).
Well, no. But the status quo cannot be allowed to continue either, because that's how we ended up in this mess in the first place.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote: 2019-05-29 10:06am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-29 08:22amThat sounds good in theory (we have laws against other forms of false advertising after all), but it obviously runs into the very tricky question of who defines what is real news, and how do they define it. For some things, that's pretty clear cut, but for other things... not so much. So you have extraordinary potential for abuse, to label controversial opinions, debated subjects, or new research/data as fake and jail people for reporting on it.
I was thinking more along the lines of making it illegal to wilfully misrepresent what a source or interviewee actually says. If a scientific paper turns out to be based on faulty data or an eyewitness account turns out to have been exaggerated then that's on the source not the byline. I'm also fine with papers having a particular ideological stance that influences the tone of their reporting. What I believe needs to be stamped out with extreme prejudice is news media cherry-picking quotes, omitting facts that don't fit the chosen narrative and otherwise acting in bad faith in order to push a political agenda.
Ah, I see.

That could still be tricky- its often necessary to quote parts of a longer piece (there isn't time in a typical newscast to read a full essay, however honest your intentions), but there are some cases that would be pretty clear cut.

To be honest, I'm surprised willfully misrepresenting a source isn't already covered under defamation laws, as it is making a false statement about someone that could damage their reputation.
Well, no. But the status quo cannot be allowed to continue either, because that's how we ended up in this mess in the first place.
Of course not, but when considering changes, we should always ask ourselves "Is this a change we'd be comfortable with having when we're not the ones in power?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-29 04:35pmAh, I see.

That could still be tricky- its often necessary to quote parts of a longer piece (there isn't time in a typical newscast to read a full essay, however honest your intentions), but there are some cases that would be pretty clear cut.

To be honest, I'm surprised willfully misrepresenting a source isn't already covered under defamation laws, as it is making a false statement about someone that could damage their reputation.
Defamation is a civil matter, as I understand it, which means a lot less public legal assistance and the potential for the plaintiff to go for an out-of-court settlement that lets them wriggle out of any real consequences. (I have heard of at least one case where a British tabloid offered some unfortunate woman whose interview they hugely and literally sexed up a settlement where she could have a public in-print apology or enough money to cover the debt she'd got into hiring a lawyer, but not both.) Making dishonest reporting practices fall under criminal law eliminates that possibility, and makes it harder for libel and defamation law to be weaponised against news media by requiring the criminal standard of proof.
Of course not, but when considering changes, we should always ask ourselves "Is this a change we'd be comfortable with having when we're not the ones in power?
In this specific case I actually would. In anything but the most exceptional (and absurd) circumstances this would be the sort of law that benefits every politician at any point along the political compass... unless their old college fraternity really did make its pledges skullfuck a dead pig.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

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Trying to tell large numbers of people about this makes me nervous though. Say I make an online group or petition and I get doxxed? I still live with my family and I'd be putting them in danger along with myself.
Seeing current events as they are is wrecking me emotionally. So I say 'farewell' to this forum. For anyone who wonders.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

SolarpunkFan wrote: 2019-05-29 10:37pm Trying to tell large numbers of people about this makes me nervous though. Say I make an online group or petition and I get doxxed? I still live with my family and I'd be putting them in danger along with myself.
For someone relatively low-profile, I expect the risk isn't that high- but its not non-existent. Alt. Reich internet harassment is a very real thing. It has more than once occurred to me that what I do online could potentially lead to harm to people close to me- its not a pleasant thought, for anyone with a conscience.

I suppose all I can say, beyond "be careful", is that you have to decide which is more important: protecting your family now, or protecting the future of the country they live in. The power of fascists is terror. They count on people being too scared to stand up.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: "The neo- Nazi plot against America is much bigger than we realize" (the Guardian).

Post by Broomstick »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-05-30 03:22am For someone relatively low-profile, I expect the risk isn't that high- but its not non-existent.
Yep.

Back in the late 1990's when I was a lot less sophisticated regarding the internet someone who objected to what I wrote managed to find out my actual name/address/other information. He called up the flight school I was attending and told them I was an active alcoholic, among other things. Fortunately, they knew me well enough to laugh at him. The term "doxxing" hadn't been invented yet but that's why I tend to very, very bland statements on my Facebook page, under my real name. I'm sure the FBI/CIA/other government agencies can connect "broomstick" and that other person, but I'm not worried about those folks, I worry about dicks and assholes on the internet deciding to make me miserable or cause trouble as a hobby or to punish me for disagreeing with them. It's also why I almost never put a picture of myself on line, especially these days with social media "helpfully" identifying people in photos.

The risk is low until it happens to you, then you have someone making up lies and spreading them around, calling you at 2 am to call you a whore, making threats, and so on.
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