Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02 ... leaks.html
The persistent nagging skepticism that has surrounded President Trump’s legal travails arose again in recent days when reports claimed that Robert Mueller would soon publish his final report. If Mueller was almost done, he couldn’t have much more, and none of it would touch Trump directly.
Michael Cohen’s testimony destroys that presumption completely. Trump’s former fixer alleges not only systematic criminality by his former boss, but deep culpability in the Russia scandal itself. There is no longer any serious chance that Trump will avoid impeachment proceedings. Cohen’s testimony should be seen as the first hearing.
Cohen’s opening statement reviews many of Trump’s familiar degeneracies. He is casually racist and habitually criminal, gleefully refusing to pay his contractors and arranging petty scams like using his “charitable” foundation for self-enrichment. More seriously still, Cohen has evidence in the form of signed checks that Trump knowingly violated campaign finance law by reimbursing him for payments to Stormy Daniels during the campaign. Trump signed the reimbursement checks that violated campaign finance law as a sitting president. (And, by signing a Trump organization check, he also casually broke his promise not to involve himself in any business activities while in office.)

But the most damning details in Cohen’s testimony concern the Russia scandal. Cohen’s evidence that Trump knew about the July 2016 meeting with Russian operatives is highly circumstantial, yet persuasive. He notes that Trump knew about everything that happened in the campaign, and describes a meeting in which Donald Jr. appeared to inform his father:
I remember being in the room with Mr. Trump, probably in early June 2016, when something peculiar happened. Don Jr. came into the room and walked behind his father’s desk — which in itself was unusual. People didn’t just walk behind Mr. Trump’s desk to talk to him. I recalled Don Jr. leaning over to his father and speaking in a low voice, which I could clearly hear, and saying: “The meeting is all set.” I remember Mr. Trump saying, “Ok good … let me know.”
Cohen is now the second member of Trump’s inner circle to publicly express complete certainty that Trump knew about the meeting. “The chance that Don Jr. did not walk these jumos up to his father’s office on the 26th floor is zero,” said Steve Bannon last year. Neither of them have anywhere close to enough evidence to prove it, of course, and this fact may never be proven.
Get unlimited access to Intelligencer and everything else New York. Learn More »
But Cohen does have clear and direct testimony of several other aspects of Trump’s involvement. He testifies that Trump knew about the attempts to develop a tower in Moscow, asked about the project repeatedly, and stood to gain “hundreds of millions of dollars” from the deal. So Trump was secretly beholden to Russia while he was running for president, and none of this was disclosed to the public during the campaign.

Cohen also explains that Trump directed him to lie to Congress about the project. (“In conversations we had during the campaign, at the same time I was actively negotiating in Russia for him, he would look me in the eye and tell me there’s no business in Russia and then go out and lie to the American people by saying the same thing.”) That is suborning perjury, just as surely as a boss telling a subordinate, “I was never here,” or, “We never had this conversation,” is clearly an instruction to lie.
Most explosively, Cohen alleges that he witnessed a conversation between Trump and Roger Stone, his intermediary to Wikileaks:
I was in Mr. Trump’s office when his secretary announced that Roger Stone was on the phone. Mr. Trump put Mr. Stone on the speakerphone. Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange and that Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that, within a couple of days, there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clinton’s campaign. Mr. Trump responded by stating to the effect of “wouldn’t that be great.”
This is the final link in the chain between Trump and Russia. Robert Mueller’s indictments have outlined a conspiracy connecting Russian intelligence to the hackers who stole Democratic emails, the hackers to WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks to Stone. Cohen is now connecting Trump to Stone.
Trump’s inner circle has obviously been aware of this. Asked in December if Stone ever gave Trump a heads-up on what WikiLeaks had obtained, his lawyer equivocated:


In a recent profile, Jeffrey Toobin asked Stone about “persistent rumors that Mueller has a witness who says he heard Trump and Stone on a speakerphone discussing WikiLeaks.” Stone replied, “Prove it.”
If this can be proved, it would also likely expose Trump to direct perjury charges. In his written answers to Mueller, Trump reportedly denied having been informed in advance about emails obtained by Wikileaks. And this explains why Mueller settled for allowing Trump to answer written questions rather than demanding a live interview. He knew he could commit Trump to supplying false answers that would expose him to perjury charges.
Proving it remains the obstacle. The scale of Cohen’s accusations are so vast that it is not tenable for Trump’s defenders to simply brush them aside. Instead, they are attacking him as an untrustworthy liar — a “convicted felon who’s been lying,” in the words of Donald Trump Jr.

This counterattack proves much less than Trump seems to think it does. Busting up a criminal organization usually requires the cooperation of some of its members, who, by definition, are also criminals. Federal prosecutors have publicly vouched for their belief that Cohen has turned the page on his criminal history and is coming clean. Cohen’s testimony is “credible and consistent with other evidence obtained in the SCO’s ongoing investigation,” reports his sentencing memorandum. “He has told the truth,” said Jeannie Rhee, one of Mueller’s prosecutors. Cohen has backed up some of his allegations against Trump with physical evidence, such as signed checks.
Of course, the charges to which Cohen has pled guilty are serious ones. He lied to protect Donald Trump. This is the same crime President Trump and his son have also apparently committed, a fact that rather complicates their attempt to present Cohen’s lies as fatally disqualifying to his credibility.
In any case, the depth and breadth of credible allegations against the president are now on a scale at which it will not do to let them go without further investigation. Regardless of whatever additional evidence Mueller finds, Congress will surely start impeachment hearings to get to the bottom of it.
Most notably, if Cohen's testimony reg. Stone is correct, then Trump was aware of Roger Stone's communications with Wikileaks about upcoming Clinton email releases, and likely perjured himself in his written answers to Mueller by denying, under oath, prior knowledge of them. He also allegedly induced Cohen to lie to Congress (suborning perjury).

In summary: We have strong evidence that the President has committed multiple crimes both before and while in the office of the Presidency. There is no need to wait for Mueller. The time to begin impeachment proceedings against Trump is now.

Please call your representative and urge them to support the initiation of impeachment proceedings against President Trump.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

House Oversight Committee Chairman Cummings: It appears that Trump committed a crime while in office.

https://www.nbcrightnow.com/national/cu ... 0ecb5.html

So, now we find out if the Democratic House has the spine to fulfill their moral and constitutional duty and use the mechanisms provided in the Constitution to deal with a criminal President who is a threat to democracy and the rule of law.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-27 07:22pm House Oversight Committee Chairman Cummings: It appears that Trump committed a crime while in office.

https://www.nbcrightnow.com/national/cu ... 0ecb5.html

So, now we find out if the Democratic House has the spine to fulfill their moral and constitutional duty and use the mechanisms provided in the Constitution to deal with a criminal President who is a threat to democracy and the rule of law.
No. They don't.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The Left's collective ability to surrender fights before they have begun never ceases to depress me.

Some Representatives do support impeachment- Representatives Omar and Talib have already signed a pledge to support it:

https://thehill.com/policy/national-sec ... terrifying
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) says she now views impeachment proceedings against President Trump as "inevitable," while calling the prospect of pushing to remove a sitting president "terrifying."
In a January interview with Rolling Stone published Wednesday, the freshman representative argues that the president "has the markings of a dictator" who will cling to power.

"I believe that impeachment is inevitable," Omar told the magazine.
"It also is a terrifying notion. [Vice President] Pence is an ideologue, and the ideology he holds is more terrifying to me and my constituents," she continued.
"And we have not had a full impeachment that removes the president from office. Nations struggle any time [they] overthrow a dictator, and Trump really has the markings of a dictator."
Omar reiterated her view on impeachment Wednesday afternoon in a tweet promoting the interview.

Along with fellow freshman Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.), Omar has signed the "Pledge to Impeach" effort led by the advocacy group By the People, which announced Tuesday that the two Democrats were the first sitting members to sign the document.
Representatives for both Omar and Tlaib confirmed to The Hill this week that the congresswomen had signed the pledge, effectively vowing to support any impeachment efforts brought against Trump by the Democratic-controlled House.
“The Congresswoman believes that Donald Trump has performed many actions that should bring forth impeachment,” Tlaib's office said in a statement this week.
Still, people who have worked with Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told The Hill they think she'll opt to not move to impeach Trump – barring a bombshell finding from special counsel Robert Mueller.
Instead, they said they believe that Pelosi will remain focused on the Democratic agenda ahead of the 2020 presidential election.
Unfortunately, Pelosi seems to be dragging her feet, waiting for more from Mueller.

Pelosi earned some respect from me for her strong stand during the shutdown, but if she is the obstacle to holding a dangerous criminal and tyrant accountable, then she needs to be ousted as leader. As Pelosi's Speakership is voted on by the entire House IIRC (and Republicans oppose her automatically), the progressive wing of the party likely has the votes to force her ouster as Speaker if they really want to.

The base also needs to reach out to 2020 Presidential candidates- make it clear to them that their position on impeaching Trump will factor into who we support in the primary.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Billionaire impeachment advocate and Democratic donor Tom Steyer says he will only support 2020 candidates who support impeachment:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/27/billion ... trump.html
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

One possible take on why the Democratic leadership may not support impeachment:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/12 ... t-strategy
With an indictment of Donald Trump for campaign-finance violations looking possible, talk of impeachment is back. To be fair, talk of impeachment began on November 9, 2016, and never stopped, but call it a flare-up. “This criminal must be brought up by the Congress of the United States for impeachment,” said Rep. Maxine Waters a few days ago. “And if we don’t . . . we’re derelict in our duty.” Waters isn’t alone. Billionaire Tom Steyer, the leader of a national impeachment drive, continues his efforts. “Democrats should do the right thing: impeach Mr. Trump,” he tweeted this week. “Don’t try to game out what happens. Do the right thing. Period.” Congressional newcomer Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has also endorsed the effort.
The argument for impeaching Trump has been straightforward: when a U.S. president has committed high crimes, justice and the rule of law call for the ultimate sanction. You cannot uphold the pillars of the Constitution if you look the other way in favor of expediency. “Electoral politics don’t matter,” tweeted Esquire’s Charles P. Pierce. “‘Optics’ don’t matter. Sean Hannity doesn’t matter. The House now has an unavoidable constitutional obligation to open an impeachment inquiry. If it declines, the constitutional provision is nothing more than what Jefferson called it: a scarecrow.” Perhaps a bubbling up in such arguments is why one analyst, Greg Valliere of Horizon Investments, places the odds of impeachment at 55 percent.

But if you’re the gambling sort and could use a little money, taking the other side of that bet might help with retirement. (Might, I said. Call off the class-action specialists.) My broker at All-Seeing and All-Knowing Investments, LLC, places the odds at 5 percent. And even that might be high. There are many reasons Democrats will steer clear of impeachment, and expedience is only one of them.
Watch Now: Craig Ferguson Teaches Scottish Slang to Jay Baruchel


While expedience is always a powerful force in political life, it’s not the biggest barrier to impeachment. Certainly, older Democrats remember the midterms of 1998, the year that Republicans set the impeachment train going against Bill Clinton. To general surprise, Republicans wound up losing a few seats in the House, a setback that was widely interpreted as a rebuke of impeachment zealotry. But Clinton’s approval ratings were reaching 70 percent as impeachment got underway, whereas Trump’s struggle to stay above 40. Trump’s alleged offenses, while minor in comparison to those of many non-impeached presidents, are also more severe than those of Clinton. And it’s possible that impeachment worked better for Republicans than conventional wisdom suggests. The circus kept Clinton’s sins in the public eye, and the shame of it all caused Al Gore to distance himself from an otherwise popular president. So political positioning might even favor impeachment, in theory. Of course, in purely tactical terms, the risk-to-reward ratio of impeachment is unfavorable, and Democrats don’t feel like testing it, but the point here is that expedience is only one of many reasons, far from the most important, that Democrats will restrain themselves.
High-mindedness, in this case, matters more. Democrats like Nancy Pelosi sincerely believe that impeachment is terrible for the country. At best, you get a crippled head of state and a political system in quiet turmoil. At worst, you cause a constitutional crisis. Also, every time you misuse impeachment, you cheapen it. The very idea of impeachment is far less frightening to a president today than it was 20 years ago, because Clinton showed it could be an unpleasant but temporary ordeal, like a stay in the hospital. Poor judgment by Republicans made it into a paper tiger. Every precedent set by one side also encourages the other side to follow suit. Impeachment begets impeachment. Democrats don’t want that.
Related to the high-mindedness is another comforting reality: there is a base level of goodwill between the two parties in the House. This is odd to say, given how incommensurable and bitter the political divides have become. But political disagreements and standard-issue partisan games don’t poison the waters. (For example, Republicans know that their investigations into the F.B.I., while not without some merit, will get shut down, and they accept that. Similarly, Democrats knew that Trump was going to benefit from a lot of double standards set by his own party, and they accept that.) What infuriates either side is a breach in implicit boundaries, such as when Newt Gingrich deployed a new brand of attack rhetoric in the 1980s and 1990s, or when Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay held a vote open for three hours. Currently, though, despite all tensions over policy, House Republicans have played fair enough to mollify House Democrats, and the two sides get along better than you’d think. When Pelosi asserts that truly impeachment-worthy crimes would get Republican buy-in for action, she means it.

This gets to the inescapability of politics in all of this. Those who see impeachment as a clean matter of upholding the rule of law in the face of crime, who see only cowardice or a concern for “optics” in attempts to avoid it, tend to have greater confidence in their conceptions of impartiality than those who urge restraint. Impeachment is like yelling, “Fire!” Unless everyone can see the flames, as opposed to your side alone, you lose credibility, with serious repercussions in all directions. That’s what happened to Republicans in 1998, and this, just as much as midterm setbacks, is what many Democrats take as the crucial lesson.
If Pelosi understands anything better than nearly anyone else, it’s the workings of consensus. Impeachment is the breakdown of consensus, and if you’re using it in the hopes of getting a president booted out of office, then you’re doing it wrong. Republicans impeached Clinton because there was no bipartisan consensus to do more than that. They wanted to make a point and draw some blood. If the crimes are indisputably heinous, however, then, as Pelosi sees it, impeachment never happens. Instead, the leaders of the House and Senate pay a visit to the Oval Office and say, “Mr. President, we have the votes to impeach and convict you. The jig is up.” Then the president, as Nixon did, resigns. The circus is averted.
There’s a final dirty truth about why Democrats aren’t going to impeach Trump: they don’t think he’s that bad. Oh, sure, they despise him. (No angry e-mails, please.) Pelosi thinks he’s a coarse and erratic buffoon. But she doesn’t think he’s a Hitler or Mussolini or Pinochet or Franco or Erdoğan or even Orbán. She remembers scandals from previous presidencies, such as warrantless wiretapping or Abu Ghraib or the sale of arms to Iran with a portion of the profits being diverted to rebels in Nicaragua. Payoffs to sexual partners look mild in comparison. (She also knows about far worse among some of her colleagues in the House. Thirty years in Washington will do that.)
Anti-Trump passions have therefore presented Democrats like Pelosi with a tricky balance to strike. They value the outrage and voter mobilization, and they’re willing to stoke the fire, but they want a controlled burn. That means tamping down impeachment talk. They’re happy to accuse Trump of crimes and suggest that impeachment would be merited, but then they pull back from the brink. The offenses outlined in recent filings concerning Trump’s payoff to porn actress Daniels are “impeachable,” noted Jerrold Nadler, the incoming chairman of the Judiciary Committee, but “whether they are important enough to justify an impeachment is a different question.” A weakened and infuriated Trump is an ideal foil for a party looking to retake the White House, and so is the party covering for him. If Trump were gone, Mike Pence would clean the slate and exhibit far more self-control. So why get in the way of a good, or at least not-all-bad, thing?
If true, this means Pelosi is making the same basic mistake Obama appears to have made in 2016, when he held back on going public with the full extent of what the administration knew about Russian interference. She is banking on Trump being easy to beat, and doesn't want to risk undermining that.

Well, everyone thought that he would be easy to beat in 2016, too. But now he's President, and there are serious questions, even raised by Cohen in his testimony today, as to whether he will leave office peaceably even if he is defeated in 2020.

To not impeach (and, as the article notes, thereby render the impeachment provision a meaningless "scarecrow") on the basis of a cynical and grossly overconfident political calculation that it will help the Democrats win in 2020 is at best a dereliction of duty, and at worst bordering on treasonous. If this is Pelosi's game, she should be immediately removed as Speaker.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/ ... ts-1194111

Pelosi dodges impeachment questions, saying she hasn't had time to watch the testimony yet.

Really? You didn't have time to watch probably the most important testimony before Congress in recent history? That's a hell of a lame ass dodge.

The shear cowardice on display here from Pelosi and other top Democrats is appalling. Okay, you want to wait for Mueller. But for how long? And what could he bring forward that would actually convince you to act? I am particularly disappointed at Occasio-Cortez shying away from impeachment. I would have expected her at least to show some backbone.

On the plus side, Rep. Yarmuth of Kentucky (head of the House Budget Committee) has now officially joined the pro-impeachment camp:
The Kentucky Democrat - who has inched closer to supporting formal impeachment hearings all year - said he was convinced by Cohen's testimony on Wednesday.

"The evidence is pretty unambiguous," Yarmuth said. "The president of the United States committed a crime while in office, he needs to be brought up for impeachment. I think we're at that part."
He also said of Democratic leadership: "They don't feel that way yet, but we'll work on them"
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28771
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by Broomstick »

I think the Democratic leadership want so much iron-clad evidence that winning is as certain as possible.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10198
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by Solauren »

That's my take on it.

Wait for Muellar's investigation to come out, then nail Trump to the wall with everything.

Depending on timing, that could derail the Republican Nomination process, and possibly torpedo their hopes for 2020.
And if it causes the party to fracture....
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Maybe, but I also think there are some who simply want to avoid the issue, run out the clock, and rely on Trump being easy to beat next year. We also don't know how long Mueller will take, what evidence he will bring... or how much damage Trump will do in the meantime.

As to the argument in favor of waiting for more evidence, I'm going to share a recent article from the Atlantic which makes a very compelling argument based on historical precedent as to why impeachment is justified regardless of the outcome, and why it would actually have a stabilizing, rather than a destabilizing, effect. Its long, but well-worth the read, and I strongly recommend that anyone who is undecided on this issue read it in full:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/580468/
On January 20, 2017, Donald Trump stood on the steps of the Capitol, raised his right hand, and solemnly swore to faithfully execute the office of president of the United States and, to the best of his ability, to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. He has not kept that promise.
To hear more feature stories, see our full list or get the Audm iPhone app.
Instead, he has mounted a concerted challenge to the separation of powers, to the rule of law, and to the civil liberties enshrined in our founding documents. He has purposefully inflamed America’s divisions. He has set himself against the American idea, the principle that all of us—of every race, gender, and creed—are created equal.
This is not a partisan judgment. Many of the president’s fiercest critics have emerged from within his own party. Even officials and observers who support his policies are appalled by his pronouncements, and those who have the most firsthand experience of governance are also the most alarmed by how Trump is governing.


ADVERTISING

inRead invented by Teads

Read the editor's note
“The damage inflicted by President Trump’s naïveté, egotism, false equivalence, and sympathy for autocrats is difficult to calculate,” the late senator and former Republican presidential nominee John McCain lamented last summer. “The president has not risen to the mantle of the office,” the GOP’s other recent nominee, the former governor and now senator Mitt Romney, wrote in January.
The oath of office is a president’s promise to subordinate his private desires to the public interest, to serve the nation as a whole rather than any faction within it. Trump displays no evidence that he understands these obligations. To the contrary, he has routinely privileged his self-interest above the responsibilities of the presidency. He has failed to disclose or divest himself from his extensive financial interests, instead using the platform of the presidency to promote them. This has encouraged a wide array of actors, domestic and foreign, to seek to influence his decisions by funneling cash to properties such as Mar-a-Lago (the “Winter White House,” as Trump has branded it) and his hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue. Courts are now considering whether some of those payments violate the Constitution.



More troubling still, Trump has demanded that public officials put their loyalty to him ahead of their duty to the public. On his first full day in office, he ordered his press secretary to lie about the size of his inaugural crowd. He never forgave his first attorney general for failing to shut down investigations into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, and ultimately forced his resignation. “I need loyalty. I expect loyalty,” Trump told his first FBI director, and then fired him when he refused to pledge it.

Trump has evinced little respect for the rule of law, attempting to have the Department of Justice launch criminal probes into his critics and political adversaries. He has repeatedly attacked both Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and Special Counsel Robert Mueller. His efforts to mislead, impede, and shut down Mueller’s investigation have now led the special counsel to consider whether the president obstructed justice.
As for the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution, Trump has repeatedly trampled upon them. He pledged to ban entry to the United States on the basis of religion, and did his best to follow through. He has attacked the press as the “enemy of the people” and barred critical outlets and reporters from attending his events. He has assailed black protesters. He has called for his critics in private industry to be fired from their jobs. He has falsely alleged that America’s electoral system is subject to massive fraud, impugning election results with which he disagrees as irredeemably tainted. Elected officials of both parties have repeatedly condemned such statements, which has only spurred the president to repeat them.
These actions are, in sum, an attack on the very foundations of America’s constitutional democracy.
50 moments that define Trump’s presidency
The electorate passes judgment on its presidents and their shortcomings every four years. But the Framers were concerned that a president could abuse his authority in ways that would undermine the democratic process and that could not wait to be addressed. So they created a mechanism for considering whether a president is subverting the rule of law or pursuing his own self-interest at the expense of the general welfare—in short, whether his continued tenure in office poses a threat to the republic. This mechanism is impeachment.

Trump’s actions during his first two years in office clearly meet, and exceed, the criteria to trigger this fail-safe. But the United States has grown wary of impeachment. The history of its application is widely misunderstood, leading Americans to mistake it for a dangerous threat to the constitutional order.
From Our March 2019 Issue

Subscribe to The Atlantic and support 160 years of independent journalism
Subscribe
That is precisely backwards. It is absurd to suggest that the Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be employed. Impeachment, in fact, is a vital protection against the dangers a president like Trump poses. And, crucially, many of its benefits—to the political health of the country, to the stability of the constitutional system—accrue irrespective of its ultimate result. Impeachment is a process, not an outcome, a rule-bound procedure for investigating a president, considering evidence, formulating charges, and deciding whether to continue on to trial.
The fight over whether Trump should be removed from office is already raging, and distorting everything it touches. Activists are radicalizing in opposition to a president they regard as dangerous. Within the government, unelected bureaucrats who believe the president is acting unlawfully are disregarding his orders, or working to subvert his agenda. By denying the debate its proper outlet, Congress has succeeded only in intensifying its pressures. And by declining to tackle the question head-on, it has deprived itself of its primary means of reining in the chief executive.

With a newly seated Democratic majority, the House of Representatives can no longer dodge its constitutional duty. It must immediately open a formal impeachment inquiry into President Trump, and bring the debate out of the court of public opinion and into Congress, where it belongs.
Democrats picked up 40 seats in the House of Representatives in the 2018 elections. Despite this clear rebuke of Trump—and despite all that is publicly known about his offenses—party elders remain reluctant to impeach him. Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, has argued that it’s too early to talk about impeachment. Many Democrats avoided discussing the idea on the campaign trail, preferring to focus on health care. When, on the first day of the 116th Congress, a freshman representative declared her intent to impeach Trump and punctuated her comments with an obscenity, she was chastised by members of the old guard—not just for how she raised the issue, but for raising it at all.
In no small part, this trepidation is due to the fact that the last effort to remove an American president from office ended in political fiasco. When the House impeached Bill Clinton, in 1998, his popularity soared; in the Senate, even some Republicans voted against convicting him of the charges.
Pelosi and her antediluvian leadership team served in Congress during those fights two decades ago, and they seem determined not to repeat their rivals’ mistakes. Polling has shown significant support for impeachment over the course of Trump’s tenure, but the most favorable polls still indicate that it lacks majority support. To move against Trump now, Democrats seem to believe, would only strengthen the president’s hand. Better to wait for public opinion to turn decisively against him and then use impeachment to ratify that view. This is the received wisdom on impeachment, the overlearned lesson of the Clinton years: House Republicans got out ahead of public opinion, and turned a president beset by scandal into a sympathetic figure.

Instead, Democrats intend to be a thorn in Trump’s side. House committees will conduct hearings into a wide range of issues, calling administration officials to testify under oath. They will issue subpoenas and demand documents, emails, and other information. The chair of the Ways and Means Committee has the power to request Trump’s elusive tax returns from the IRS and, with the House’s approval, make them public.
Other institutions are already acting as brakes on the Trump presidency. To the president’s vocal frustration, federal judges have repeatedly enjoined his executive orders. Robert Mueller’s investigation has brought convictions of, or plea deals from, key figures in his campaign as well as his administration. Some Democrats are clearly hoping that if they stall for long enough, Mueller will deliver them from Trump, obviating the need to act themselves.
But Congress can’t outsource its responsibilities to federal prosecutors. No one knows when Mueller’s report will arrive, what form it will take, or what it will say. Even if Mueller alleges criminal misconduct on the part of the president, under Justice Department guidelines, a sitting president cannot be indicted. Nor will the host of congressional hearings fulfill that branch’s obligations. The view they will offer of his conduct will be both limited and scattershot, focused on discrete acts. Only by authorizing a dedicated impeachment inquiry can the House begin to assemble disparate allegations into a coherent picture, forcing lawmakers to consider both whether specific charges are true and whether the president’s abuses of his power justify his removal.
Trump’s bipartisan critics are not merely arguing that he has dishonored the presidency. The most serious charge is that he is attacking the bedrock of American democracy.
Waiting also presents dangers. With every passing day, Trump further undermines our national commitment to America’s ideals. And impeachment is a long process. Typically, the House first votes to open an investigation—the hearings would likely take months—then votes again to present charges to the Senate. By delaying the start of the process, in the hope that even clearer evidence will be produced by Mueller or some other source, lawmakers are delaying its eventual conclusion. Better to forge ahead, weighing what is already known and incorporating additional material as it becomes available.

Critics of impeachment insist that it would diminish the presidency, creating an executive who serves at the sufferance of Congress. But defenders of executive prerogatives should be the first to recognize that the presidency has more to gain than to lose from Trump’s impeachment. After a century in which the office accumulated awesome power, Trump has done more to weaken executive authority than any recent president. The judiciary now regards Trump’s orders with a jaundiced eye, creating precedents that will constrain his successors. His own political appointees boast to reporters, or brag in anonymous op-eds, that they routinely work to counter his policies. Congress is contemplating actions on trade and defense that will hem in the president. His opponents repeatedly aim at the man but hit the office.
Democrats’ fear—that impeachment will backfire on them—is likewise unfounded. The mistake Republicans made in impeaching Bill Clinton wasn’t a matter of timing. They identified real and troubling misconduct—then applied the wrong remedy to fix it. Clinton’s acts disgraced the presidency, and his lies under oath and efforts to obstruct the investigation may well have been crimes. The question that determines whether an act is impeachable, though, is whether it endangers American democracy. As a House Judiciary Committee staff report put it in 1974, in the midst of the Watergate investigation: “The purpose of impeachment is not personal punishment; its function is primarily to maintain constitutional government.” Impeachable offenses, it found, included “undermining the integrity of office, disregard of constitutional duties and oath of office, arrogation of power, abuse of the governmental process, adverse impact on the system of government.”

Trump’s bipartisan critics are not merely arguing that he has lied or dishonored the presidency. The most serious allegations against him ultimately rest on the charge that he is attacking the bedrock of American democracy. That is the situation impeachment was devised to address.
Video: It’s Time to Impeach Trump


After the House impeaches a president, the Constitution requires a two-thirds majority in the Senate to remove him from office. Opponents of impeachment point out that, despite the greater severity of the prospective charges against Trump, there is little reason to believe the Senate is more likely to remove him than it was to remove Clinton. Indeed, the Senate’s Republican majority has shown little will to break with the president—though that may change. The process of impeachment itself is likely to shift public opinion, both by highlighting what’s already known and by bringing new evidence to light. If Trump’s support among Republican voters erodes, his support in the Senate may do the same. One lesson of Richard Nixon’s impeachment is that when legislators conclude a presidency is doomed, they can switch allegiances in the blink of an eye.

But this sort of vote-counting, in any case, misunderstands the point of impeachment. The question of whether impeachment is justified should not be confused with the question of whether it is likely to succeed in removing a president from office. The country will benefit greatly regardless of how the Senate ultimately votes. Even if the impeachment of Donald Trump fails to produce a conviction in the Senate, it can safeguard the constitutional order from a president who seeks to undermine it. The protections of the process alone are formidable. They come in five distinct forms.
The first is that once an impeachment inquiry begins, the president loses control of the public conversation. Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton each discovered this, much to their chagrin. Johnson, the irascible Tennessee Democrat who succeeded to the presidency in 1865 upon the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, quickly found himself at odds with the Republican Congress. He shattered precedents by delivering a series of inflammatory addresses that dominated the headlines and forced his opponents into a reactive posture. The launching of impeachment inquiries changed that. Day after day, Congress held hearings. Day after day, newspapers splashed the proceedings across their front pages. Instead of focusing on Johnson’s fearmongering, the press turned its attention to the president’s missteps, to the infighting within his administration, and to all the things that congressional investigators believed he had done wrong.

It isn’t just the coverage that changes. When presidents face the prospect of impeachment, they tend to discover a previously unsuspected capacity for restraint and compromise, at least in public. They know that their words can be used against them, so they fume in private. Johnson’s calls for the hanging of his political opponents yielded quickly to promises to defer to their judgment on the key questions of the day. Nixon raged to his aides, but tried to show a different face to the country. “Dignity, command, faith, head high, no fear, build a new spirit,” he told himself. Clinton sent bare-knuckled proxies to the television-news shows, but he and his staff chose their own words carefully.
Trump is easily the most pugilistic president since Johnson; he’s never going to behave with decorous restraint. But if impeachment proceedings begin, his staff will surely redouble its efforts to curtail his tweeting, his lawyers will counsel silence, and his allies on Capitol Hill will beg for whatever civility he can muster. His ability to sidestep scandal by changing the subject—perhaps his greatest political skill—will diminish.
As Trump fights for his political survival, that struggle will overwhelm other concerns. This is the second benefit of impeachment: It paralyzes a wayward president’s ability to advance the undemocratic elements of his agenda. Some of Trump’s policies are popular, and others are widely reviled. Some of his challenges to settled orthodoxies were long overdue, and others have proved ill-advised. These are ordinary features of our politics and are best dealt with through ordinary electoral processes. It is, rather, the extraordinary elements of Trump’s presidency that merit the use of impeachment to forestall their success: his subversion of the rule of law, attacks on constitutional liberties, and advancement of his own interests at the public’s expense.

The Mueller probe as well as hearings convened by the House and Senate Intelligence Committees have already hobbled the Trump administration to some degree. It will face even more scrutiny from a Democratic House. White House aides will have to hire personal lawyers; senior officials will spend their afternoons preparing testimony. But impeachment would raise the scrutiny to an entirely different level.
In part, this is because of the enormous amount of attention impeachment proceedings garner. But mostly, the scrutiny stems from the stakes of the process. The most a president generally has to fear from congressional hearings is embarrassment; there is always an aide to take the fall. Impeachment puts his own job on the line, and demands every hour of his day. The rarest commodity in any White House is time, that of the president and his top advisers. When it’s spent watching live hearings or meeting with lawyers, the administration’s agenda suffers. This is the irony of congressional leaders’ counseling patience, urging members to simply wait Trump out and use the levers of legislative power instead of moving ahead with impeachment. There may be no more effective way to run out the clock on an administration than to tie it up with impeachment hearings.

As Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton each discovered, once an impeachment inquiry begins, the president loses control of the public conversation. (Everett Historical; Charles Tasnadi; J. Scott Applewhite / AP)
But the advantages of impeachment are not merely tactical. The third benefit is its utility as a tool of discovery and discernment. At the moment, it is often hard to tell the difference between wild-eyed conspiracy theories and straight narrations of the day’s news. Some of what is alleged about Trump is plainly false; much of it might be true, but lacks supporting evidence; and many of the best-documented claims are quickly forgotten, lost in the din of fresh allegations. This is what passes for due process in the court of public opinion.

The problem is not new. When Congress first opened the Johnson impeachment hearings, for instance, the committee spent two months chasing rumor and innuendo. It heard allegations that Johnson had sent a secret letter to former Confederate President Jefferson Davis; that he had associated with a “disreputable woman” and, through her, sold pardons; that he had transferred ownership of confiscated railroads as political favors; even that he had conspired with John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. The congressman who made that last claim was forced to admit to the committee pursuing impeachment that what he possessed “was not that kind of evidence which would satisfy the great mass of men”—he had simply based the accusation on his belief that every vice president who succeeds to the highest office murders his predecessor.
There was public value, though, in these investigations. The charges had already been leveled; they were circulating and shaping public opinion. Spread by a highly polarized, partisan press, they could not be dispelled or disproved. But once Congress initiated the process of impeachment, the charges had to be substantiated. And that meant taking them from the realm of rhetoric into the province of fact. Many of the claims against Johnson failed to survive the journey. Those that did eventually helped form the basis for his impeachment. Separating them out was crucial.

The process of impeachment can also surface evidence. The House Judiciary Committee began its impeachment hearings against Nixon in October 1973, well before the president’s complicity in the Watergate cover-up was clear. In April 1974, as part of those hearings, the Judiciary Committee subpoenaed 42 White House tapes. In response, Nixon released transcripts of the tapes that were so obviously expurgated that a district judge approved a subpoena from the special prosecutor for the tapes themselves. That demand, in turn, eventually produced the so-called smoking-gun tape, a recording of Nixon authorizing the CIA to shut down the FBI’s investigation into Watergate. The evidence that drove Nixon from office thus emerged as a consequence of the impeachment hearings; it did not spark them. The only way for the House to find out what Trump has actually done, and whether his conduct warrants removal, is to start asking.
That is not to say that impeachment hearings against Trump would be sober and orderly. The Clinton hearings were something of a circus, and the past two years on Capitol Hill suggest that any Trump hearings will be far worse. The president’s stalwart defenders are already attacking the integrity of potential witnesses and airing their own conspiracy theories; an attempt to smear Mueller with sexual-misconduct claims collapsed spectacularly in October. His accusers, meanwhile, hurl epithets and invective. In Congress, Trump’s most committed detractors might be tempted to follow the bad example of the Clinton impeachment, when, instead of conducting extensive hearings to weigh potential charges, House Republicans short-circuited the process—taking the independent counsel’s conclusions, rushing them to the floor, and voting to impeach in a lame-duck session. Trump’s opponents need to put their faith in the process, empowering a committee to consider specific charges, weigh the available evidence, and decide whether to proceed.

Hosting that debate in Congress yields a fourth benefit: defusing the potential for an explosion of political violence. This is a rationale for impeachment first offered at the Constitutional Convention, in 1787. “What was the practice before this in cases where the chief Magistrate rendered himself obnoxious?” Benjamin Franklin asked his fellow delegates. “Why, recourse was had to assassination in wch. he was not only deprived of his life but of the opportunity of vindicating his character.” A system without a mechanism for removing the chief executive, he argued, offered an invitation to violence. Just as the courts took the impulse toward vigilante justice and safely channeled it into the protections of the legal system, impeachment took the impulse toward political violence and safely channeled it into Congress.
Nixon’s presidency was marked by an upsurge in political terrorism. In just its first 16 months, 4,330 bombings claimed 43 lives. As the Vietnam War wound down and the militant left began to lose its salience, it made opposition to the president its new rallying cry. “Impeach Nixon and jail him for his major crimes,” the Weather Underground demanded in its manifesto, Prairie Fire, in July 1974. “Nixon merits the people’s justice.” But that seemingly radical demand, intended to expose the inadequacy of the regular constitutional order, ironically proved the opposite point. By the end of the month, the House Judiciary Committee had approved three articles of impeachment; in early August, Nixon resigned. The ship of state, it turned out, had the capacity to right itself. The Weather Underground continued its slide into irrelevance, and political violence eventually receded.

The current moment is different, of course. Today, the left is again radicalizing, but the overwhelming majority of political violence is committed by the far right, albeit on a considerably smaller scale than in the Nixon era. Trump himself has warned that “the people would revolt” if he were impeached, a warning that echoes earlier eras. When Congress debated impeachment in 1868, some likewise predicted that it would provoke Andrew Johnson’s most ardent supporters to violence. “We are evidently on the eve of a revolution that may, should an appeal be taken to arms, be more bloody than that inaugurated by the firing on Fort Sumter,” warned The Boston Post.
The predictions were wrong then, as Trump’s are likely wrong now. The public understood that once the impeachment process began, the real action would take place in Congress, and not in the streets. Johnson knew that inciting his supporters to violence would erode congressional support just when he needed it most. That seems the most probable outcome today as well. If impeached, Trump would lose the luxury of venting his resentments before friendly crowds, stirring their anger. His audience, by political necessity, would become a few dozen senators in Washington.
And what if the Senate does not convict Trump? The fifth benefit of impeachment is that, even when it fails to remove a president, it severely damages his political prospects. Johnson, abandoned by Republicans and rejected by Democrats, did not run for a second term. Nixon resigned, and Gerald Ford, his successor, lost his bid for reelection. Clinton weathered the process and finished out his second term, but despite his personal popularity, he left an electorate hungering for change. “Many, including Al Gore, think that the impeachment cost Gore the election,” Paul Rosenzweig, a former senior member of Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr’s team, told me. “So it has consequences and resonates outside the narrow four corners of impeachment.” If Congress were to impeach Trump, whatever short-term surge he might enjoy as supporters rallied to his defense, his long-term political fate would likely be sealed.

In these five ways—shifting the public’s attention to the president’s debilities, tipping the balance of power away from him, skimming off the froth of conspiratorial thinking, moving the fight to a rule-bound forum, and dealing lasting damage to his political prospects—the impeachment process has succeeded in the past. In fact, it’s the very efficacy of these past efforts that should give Congress pause; it’s a process that should be triggered only when a president’s betrayal of his basic duties requires it. But Trump’s conduct clearly meets that threshold. The only question is whether Congress will act.
Here is how impeachment would work in practice. The Constitution lays out the process clearly, and two centuries of precedent will guide Congress in its work. The House possesses the sole power of impeachment—a procedure analogous to an indictment. Traditionally, this has meant tapping a committee to summon witnesses, subpoena documents, hold hearings, and consider the evidence. The committee can then propose specific articles of impeachment to the full House. If a simple majority approves the charges, they are forwarded to the Senate. The chief justice of the United States presides over the trial; members of the House are designated to act as “managers,” or prosecuting attorneys. If two-thirds of the senators who are present vote to convict, the president is removed from office; if the vote falls short, he is not.

Although the process is fairly clear, the Founders left us only vague instructions about when to implement it. The Constitution offers a short, cryptic list of the offenses that merit the impeachment and removal of federal officials: “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” The first two items are comparatively straightforward. The Constitution elsewhere specifies that treason against the United States consists “only in levying War” against the country or in giving the country’s enemies “Aid and Comfort.” As proof, it requires either the testimony of two witnesses or confession in open court. Despite the appalling looseness with which the charge of treason has been bandied about by members of Congress past and present, no federal official—much less a president—has ever been impeached for it. (Even the darkest theories of Trump’s alleged collusion with Russia seem unlikely to meet the Constitution’s strict definition of that crime.) Bribery, similarly, has been alleged only once, and against a judge, not a president.
It is the third item on the list—“high crimes and misdemeanors”—on which all presidential impeachments have hinged. If the House begins impeachment proceedings against Donald Trump, the charges will depend on this clause, but Congress will first need to decide what it means.
At the Constitutional Convention, an early draft included “treason, bribery, and corruption,” but it was shorn of that last item by the time it arrived on the floor. George Mason, of Virginia, spoke up. “Why is the provision restrained to Treason & bribery only?” he asked, according to James Madison’s notes. “Treason as defined in the Constitution will not reach many great and dangerous offences … Attempts to subvert the Constitution may not be Treason as above defined.” Mason moved to add “or maladministration.”

Madison, though, objected that “so vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate.” Gouverneur Morris further argued that “an election of every four years will prevent maladministration.” Mere incompetence or policy disputes were best dealt with by voters. But that still left Mason’s original concern, for the “many great and dangerous offences” not covered by treason or bribery. Instead of “maladministration,” he suggested, why not substitute “other high crimes & misdemeanors (agst. the State)”? The motion carried.
Constitutional lawyers have been arguing about what counts as a “high crime” or “misdemeanor” ever since. The phrase itself was borrowed from English common law, although there is no reason to suppose Mason and his colleagues were deeply familiar with its uses in that context. The Nixon impeachment spurred Charles L. Black, a Yale law professor, to write Impeachment: A Handbook, a slender volume that remains a defining work on the question.
Black makes two key points. First, he notes that as a matter of logic as well as context and precedent, not every violation of a criminal statute amounts to a “high crime” or “misdemeanor.” To apply his reasoning, some crimes—say, violating 40 U.S.C. §8103(b)(2) by willfully injuring a shrub on federal property in Washington, D.C.—cannot possibly be impeachable offenses. Conversely, a president may violate his oath of office without violating the letter of the law. A president could, for example, harness the enforcement powers of the federal government to systematically persecute his political opponents, or he could grossly neglect the duties of his office. That sort of conduct, in Black’s view, is impeachable even when it is not actually criminal.

His second point rests upon the principle of eiusdem generis—literally, “of the same kind.” As the last item in a list of three impeachable offenses, surely “high crimes and misdemeanors” shares some essential features with the first two. Black suggests that treason and bribery have in common three essential features: They are extremely serious, they stand to corrupt and subvert government and the political process, and they are self-evidently wrong to any person with a shred of honor. These, he argues, are features that a “high crime” or “misdemeanor” ought to share.
Black’s views on these points are not uncontested. Nixon’s attorneys argued that impeachment did require a crime. In 1974, before Black published his book, a report from the Justice Department split the difference, concluding that “there are persuasive grounds for arguing both the narrow view that a violation of criminal law is required and the broader view that certain non-criminal ‘political offenses’ may justify impeachment.”
John Doar, the attorney hired by the House Judiciary Committee to oversee the Nixon investigation, handed off the question of what constituted an impeachable offense to two young staffers: Bill Weld and Hillary Rodham. They determined that the answers they were seeking were to be found not in old case law, but in the public debates that raged around past impeachment efforts. The memo Weld and Rodham helped produce drew on that context and sided with Black: “High crimes and misdemeanors” need not be crimes. In the end, Weld came to believe that impeachment is a political process, aimed at determining whether a president has fallen short of the duties of his office. But that doesn’t mean it’s arbitrary. In fact, the Nixon impeachment left Weld with a renewed faith in the American system of government: “The wheels may grind slowly,” he later reflected, “but they grind pretty well.”

Some Democrats have already seen enough from the Trump administration to conclude that it has met the criteria for impeachment. In July 2017, Representative Brad Sherman of California put forward an impeachment resolution; it garnered a single co-sponsor. The next month, though, brought the white-nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, and Trump’s defense of the “very fine people on both sides.” The billionaire activist Tom Steyer launched a petition drive calling for impeachment. A second resolution was introduced in the House that November, this time by Tennessee’s Steve Cohen, who found 17 co-sponsors. By December 2017, when Representative Al Green of Texas forced consideration of a third resolution, 58 Democrats voted in favor of continuing debate, including Jim Clyburn, the House’s third-ranking Democrat. On the first day of the new Congress in January, Sherman reintroduced his resolution.
These efforts are exercises in political messaging, not serious attempts to tackle the question of impeachment. They invert the process, offering lists of charges for the House to consider, rather than asking the House to consider what charges may be justified. The House should instead approve a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry and allocating the staff, funding, and other resources necessary to pursue it, as the resolution that initiated the proceedings against Richard Nixon did.

Still, the resolutions proposed so far offer a valuable glimpse at the issues House Democrats are likely to pursue in such an inquiry. Some have made a general case that Trump has done violence to American values—Green’s stated that Trump “has betrayed his trust as President … to the manifest injury of the people of the United States”—but others have claimed specific violations of statutes or constitutional provisions. Both types of allegations may turn out to be important.
Despite the consensus of constitutional scholars that impeachable offenses need not be crimes, Congress has generally preferred to vote on articles that allege criminal acts. More than a third of representatives, and an outright majority of senators, hold law degrees; they think like lawyers. Democrats are thus focused on campaign-finance regulations, obstruction of justice, tax laws, money-laundering rules, proscriptions on bribing foreign officials, and the Constitution’s two emoluments clauses, which bar the president from accepting gifts from state or foreign governments.
They have studiously avoided, however, the primary area of public fascination when it comes to Trump’s alleged misdeeds: whether the president or his campaign colluded with Russia in the 2016 election. Lawmakers are clearly wary of bringing charges that could bear on Robert Mueller’s report, lest they interfere with an ongoing investigation that they hope will somehow force Trump from office. “It all depends on what we learn from hearings and from the Mueller investigation,” Representative Cohen told me. But the highly anticipated Mueller report is unlikely to provide the denouement lawmakers are seeking. Whether a president can be impeached for acts committed prior to assuming office is an unsettled question. As Trump himself never tires of pointing out, collusion with Russia is not itself a crime. And even if Mueller produces a singularly damning report, one presenting evidence that the president himself has committed criminal acts, he cannot indict the president—at least according to current Justice Department guidelines. Congress will have to decide what to do about it.
Once the House authorizes an impeachment inquiry, the committee must distill the evidence of Trump’s alleged crimes into articles capable of garnering a majority vote in that chamber. But that’s just the first challenge. To remove Trump from office, the House managers will then have to persuade the Senate to vote to convict the president. When the articles of impeachment are filed with the Senate, where the president will be tried, each article will be considered and voted on individually.
And then, suddenly, the members of the United States Senate will be forced to answer a question that many have long evaded: Is the president fit to continue in office? There will be no press aides to hide behind, no elevators into which they can duck. Some Democrats have already made their opinions clear. Others will have to decide whether to vote to remove a president backed by a majority of their constituents. For Republicans, the choice will be even harder.
This is where the dual nature of impeachment as both a legal and a political process comes into sharpest focus. The Founders worried about electing a president who lacked character or a sense of honor, but Americans have long since lost the moral vocabulary to articulate such concerns explicitly, preferring to look instead for demonstrable violations of rules that illuminate underlying character flaws. It is Trump’s unfitness for office that necessitates impeachment; his attacks on American democracy are plainly evident, and should be sufficient. But some Republican senators may continue to dismiss the more sweeping claims against the president, particularly where no statutory crimes attach. And so the strength of the evidence supporting narrower charges such as obstruction of justice and campaign-finance violations may ultimately determine his fate. If the committee can substantiate these charges, it will place even the most reluctant senators in a bind. When the moment finally comes to cast their vote, and the world is watching, how many will acquit the president of things he has clearly done?
The closest the Senate has ever come to removing a president was in 1868, after Andrew Johnson was impeached on 11 counts. Remembered today as a lamentable exercise in hyper-partisanship, in fact Johnson’s impeachment functioned as the Founders had intended, sparing the country from the further depredations of a president who had betrayed his most basic responsibilities. We need to recover the real story of Johnson’s impeachment, because it offers the best evidence that the current president, too, must be impeached.
The case before the United States in 1868 bears striking similarities to the case before the country now—and no president in history more resembles the 45th than the 17th. “The president of the United States,” E. P. Whipple wrote in this magazine in 1866, “has so singular a combination of defects for the office of a constitutional magistrate, that he could have obtained the opportunity to misrule the nation only by a visitation of Providence. Insincere as well as stubborn, cunning as well as unreasonable, vain as well as ill-tempered, greedy of popularity as well as arbitrary in disposition, veering in his mind as well as fixed in his will, he unites in his character the seemingly opposite qualities of demagogue and autocrat.” Johnson, he continued, was “egotistic to the point of mental disease” and had become “the prey of intriguers and sycophants.”
Whipple was among Johnson’s more verbose critics, but hardly the most scathing. A remarkable number of Americans looked at the president and saw a man grossly unfit for office. Johnson, a Democrat from a Civil War border state, had been tapped by Lincoln in 1864 to join him on a national-unity ticket. A fierce opponent of the slaveholding elite and a self-styled champion of the white yeomanry, Johnson spoke to voters skeptical of the Republican Party’s progressive agenda. He horrified much of the East Coast establishment, but his raw, even profane style appealed to many voters. The National Union Party, seeking the destruction of slavery and the Confederacy, swept to victory.
No one ever thought Johnson would be president. Then, in 1865, Booth’s bullet put him in office. The end of the war exposed how different Johnson’s own agenda was from the policies favored by Lincoln. Johnson wanted to reintegrate the South into the Union as swiftly as possible, devoid of slavery but otherwise little changed. Most congressional Republicans, by contrast, wanted to seize the moment to build a new social order in the South, enshrining equality and protecting civil rights. Johnson sought to restore America as it had been, while the Republicans hoped to make it more perfect.
The two visions were irreconcilable. As the feud deepened, each side pushed its commitments to their logical extremes. Congressional Republicans approved the Fourteenth Amendment, voted to enlarge the role of the Freedmen’s Bureau, and passed the Civil Rights Act. Taken together, these measures established the equality of Americans before the law and, for the first time, made its preservation a federal concern. They amounted to nothing less than a social revolution, a promise of an America that belonged to all Americans, not just to white men.
From the archives: W. E. B. Du Bois on the Freedmen’s Bureau
Johnson and his supporters found this intolerable. In federal efforts to establish racial equality, they saw antiwhite discrimination. Johnson vetoed the Civil Rights Act, insisting that “the distinction of race and color is by the bill made to operate in favor of the colored and against the white race.” For the first time in American history, Congress overrode a veto to pass a major piece of legislation. Three months later, he vetoed the renewal of the Freedmen’s Bureau Bill, complaining that its plan to distribute land to former slaves constituted “discrimination” that would establish a “favored class of citizens.” Congress again overrode his veto. That set up an unprecedented situation, as the president was asked to administer laws he had tried to block. Instead of the promised peace, the nation found itself gripped by an accelerating crisis.

The Senate trial of Andrew Johnson. Recalled today as a folly, in fact Johnson’s impeachment spared the U.S. from the further depredations of a president who had betrayed his most basic responsibilities. (Library of Congress / Getty)
The question facing Congress, and the public, was this: What do you do with a president whose every utterance and act seems to undermine the Constitution he is sworn to uphold? At first, Republicans pursued the standard mix of legislative remedies—holding hearings and passing bills designed to strip the president of certain powers. Many members of Johnson’s Cabinet worked with their congressional counterparts to constrain the president. Johnson began to see conspiracies around every corner. He moved to purge the bureaucracy of his opponents, denouncing the “blood-suckers and cormorants” who frustrated his desires.
It was the campaign of white-nationalist terror that raged through the spring and summer of 1866 that persuaded many Republicans they could not allow Johnson to remain in office. In Tennessee, where Johnson had until the year before served as military governor, a white mob opposed to black equality rampaged through the streets of Memphis in May, slaughtering dozens of people as it went. July brought a second massacre, this one in New Orleans, where efforts to enfranchise black voters sparked a riot. A mob filled with police, firemen, armed youths, and Confederate veterans shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, and mutilated dozens, many of them black veterans of the Union Army. Johnson chose not to suppress the violence, using fear of disorder to build a constituency more loyal to him than to either party.
Congress opened impeachment hearings. The process unfolded in fits and starts over the next year and a half, as Johnson’s congressional opponents searched vainly for some charge that could gain the support of a majority of the House. Then Johnson handed it to them by firing his secretary of war, defying a law passed, in part, to stop him from undermining Reconstruction. The House passed 11 articles of impeachment, forcing Johnson to stand trial before the Senate. But the effort fell short by a single vote.
When Johnson’s supporters learned that he had been spared, they were ecstatic. In Milwaukee, they careened down the street in a wagon, shouting for Johnson and liberty, sharing a keg of beer. In Boston and in Hartford, Connecticut, they fired 100‑gun salutes; in Dearborn, Michigan, they settled for 19 guns and bonfires. “We have stood for the last few months upon the verge of a precipice, a dark abyss of anarchy yawning at our feet,” the Maryland Democrat Stevenson Archer said, sketching an alternative result whereby “dark-skinned fiends and white-faced, white-livered vampires might rule and riot on the little blood they could still suck out by fastening on helpless throats.”
But the euphoria proved short-lived. The New York Times urged Johnson’s supporters to look at the bigger picture: “Congress has assumed control of the whole matter of reconstruction, and will assert and exercise it.” Any effort to wrest control back from the House and Senate was held in check by the specter of another impeachment, which haunted Johnson’s remaining months in office. The Democrats took up Johnson’s political cause; their convention theme in 1868 was “This Is a White Man’s Country; Let White Men Rule.” But when the politically damaged Johnson made a bid for the Democratic nomination—“Why should they not take me up?”—he was refused. Ulysses S. Grant won on the Republican ticket, and threw the full force of the Army behind the project of Reconstruction. Johnson went home to Tennessee.
Congress must decide whether the greater risk lies in executing the Constitution, or in deferring to voters to do what it cannot muster the courage to do itself.
If the goal of impeachment was to frustrate Johnson’s efforts to make America a white man’s country again, it was an unqualified success. Instead of being remembered as a triumph, however, in the years that followed, it was memorialized as a failure. Defending the impeachment on substantive grounds required believing that all people born in the United States—white and black alike—deserved the same civil liberties. And a decade later, America changed its mind about that, abandoning the project of Reconstruction and reneging on its promise of civil rights for African Americans. Johnson had said he was fighting to preserve a “white man’s government,” and for the next century, that’s what the country largely had. Robbed of its animating force, the bill of particulars against Johnson began to seem hollow, petty, and misguided. How could it have been proper to impeach a president for undermining the Constitution’s guarantee of equality, when the nation as a whole had subsequently done the same?
The chorus of experts who now present Johnson’s impeachment as an exercise in raw partisanship are not learning from history but, rather, erasing it. Johnson used his office to deny the millions freed from bondage the equality that God had given them and that the Constitution guaranteed. To deny the justice of Johnson’s impeachment is to affirm the justice of his acts. If his impeachment was partisan, it was because one party had been formed to defend the freedom of man, and the other had not yet reconciled itself to that proposition.
Related Stories

America’s Slide Toward Autocracy
Impeachment: An Argument
The Clinton Impeachment, as Told by the People Who Lived It
From the Archives: The Johnson Party, September 1866
The senators who voted against convicting Johnson insisted that they were standing on principle and upholding the Constitution. Yet some of the same lawmakers who expended so much effort defending the prerogatives of the presidency simultaneously turned a blind eye to the gross civil-rights violations that pervaded the South; their deep concern for constitutional niceties with respect to the president gave way to willful indifference when blacks were the ones who were systematically and violently deprived of their rights. It was a bitter irony: The impeachment proceedings were greeted with alarm by those who feared they would destroy the Constitution. In the end, though, it was the regular process of government that eventually ratified Jim Crow, the most outrageous abrogation of constitutional protections in the nation’s history. Impeachment drew the United States closer to living up to its ideals, if only fleetingly, by rallying the public against Johnson’s assault on the Constitution.
Today, the United States once more confronts a president who seems to care for only some of the people he represents, who promises his supporters that he can roll back the tide of diversity, who challenges the rule of law, and who regards constitutional rights and liberties as disposable. Congress must again decide whether the greater risk lies in executing the Constitution as it was written, or in deferring to voters to do what it cannot muster the courage to do itself. The gravest danger facing the country is not a Congress that seeks to measure the president against his oath—it is a president who fails to measure up to that solemn promise.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

A third of Republicans and almost two thirds of all voters believe Trump should be impeached if he obstructed justice:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 5de4b77ade

With numbers like that, if Mueller finds Trump obstructed justice (and given Trump's public actions and statements, he would lose all credibility if he found anything else), the Congressional leadership will find it very hard to continue to evade the impeachment question.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
GrosseAdmiralFox
Padawan Learner
Posts: 481
Joined: 2019-01-20 01:28pm

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 02:36am A third of Republicans and almost two thirds of all voters believe Trump should be impeached if he obstructed justice:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 5de4b77ade

With numbers like that, if Mueller finds Trump obstructed justice (and given Trump's public actions and statements, he would lose all credibility if he found anything else), the Congressional leadership will find it very hard to continue to evade the impeachment question.
Here's the thing, the GOP can't allow an impeachment to go forward because they would be primaried by Trump's base who is now their base. That means that if they impeach Trump, they're out of a job; if they don't impeach Trump, then they'll get the FBI who is returning to it's Director Hoover era ways and get hauled into jail...
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-02-28 02:42am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 02:36am A third of Republicans and almost two thirds of all voters believe Trump should be impeached if he obstructed justice:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 5de4b77ade

With numbers like that, if Mueller finds Trump obstructed justice (and given Trump's public actions and statements, he would lose all credibility if he found anything else), the Congressional leadership will find it very hard to continue to evade the impeachment question.
Here's the thing, the GOP can't allow an impeachment to go forward because they would be primaried by Trump's base who is now their base. That means that if they impeach Trump, they're out of a job; if they don't impeach Trump, then they'll get the FBI who is returning to it's Director Hoover era ways and get hauled into jail...
I'm not sure Hoover is a fair comparison. Hoover was a corrupt bigot. As far as I can see, going after Trump and his accomplices is simply doing their job, albeit under extraordinary circumstances.

Which is why I don't for a minute believe that they can or will arrest every Congressmember who is opposed to impeaching Trump. For that to happen, we'd need there to be an outright coup/counter-revolution first, with the Constitution thrown out in the process, as "opposes impeaching the President" is a political view, not an indictable offense under the law. Remember, contrary to what the Trumpers claim, the job of the FBI in this is to investigate possible crimes and arrest criminals who have broken Federal law, not to destroy the Republican Party (however thoroughly its destruction is warranted and necessary for the good of the nation).

That is the job of the electorate.

Edit: What may happen to the Republicans is that (if there is sufficient turnout and a vigorous campaign to curtail foreign interference and voter fraud/suppression), the Republicans will lose more and more in swing areas (and more and more states and districts will become purple due to shifting demographics and loss of support in everything but the "angry uneducated old white man" demographic), to the point that the Republican Party becomes a regional party, and withers to irrelevance.

At which point I'd expect the Dems to split into a center-right party (merging with the remnants of the "moderate" Republicans and libertarians) and a progressive/socialist party.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
GrosseAdmiralFox
Padawan Learner
Posts: 481
Joined: 2019-01-20 01:28pm

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 02:50am I'm not sure Hoover is a fair comparison. Hoover was a corrupt bigot. As far as I can see, going after Trump and his accomplices is simply doing their job, albeit under extraordinary circumstances.

Which is why I don't for a minute believe that they can or will arrest every Congressmember who is opposed to impeaching Trump. For that to happen, we'd need there to be an outright coup/counter-revolution first, with the Constitution thrown out in the process, as "opposes impeaching the President" is a political view, not an indictable offense under the law. Remember, contrary to what the Trumpers claim, the job of the FBI in this is to investigate possible crimes and arrest criminals who have broken Federal law, not to destroy the Republican Party (however thoroughly its destruction is warranted and necessary for the good of the nation).

That is the job of the electorate.

Edit: What may happen to the Republicans is that (if there is sufficient turnout and a vigorous campaign to curtail foreign interference and voter fraud/suppression), the Republicans will lose more and more in swing areas (and more and more states and districts will become purple due to shifting demographics and loss of support in everything but the "angry uneducated old white man" demographic), to the point that the Republican Party becomes a regional party, and withers to irrelevance.

At which point I'd expect the Dems to split into a center-right party (merging with the remnants of the "moderate" Republicans and libertarians) and a progressive/socialist party.
I'm not so sure about that, as the GOP can't divorce themselves from that base... and given that we're seeing the GOP's demographics looking like they are acting more and more like a cornered animal, I'm not going to pretend that we know the scenarios for when they do believe that there is no other option politically...

With Hoover, he might be a bigot, but he did NOT turn the FBI from a laughing stock into one of the most powerful police services on the planet. Anyone that kidnaps in the US is afraid of the FBI, as the Charles Lindbergh Case pretty much started what would become the trend of kidnapping into a literal death sentence in the US. Did he do corrupt things? Given how much shit that was thrown at him and the FBI? He had to make files on EVERYONE politically relevant to survive. Remember, Director Hoover scared the shit out of Tricky Dick... and Tricky Dick had to wait until he died to proceed with the cover up of Watergate.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-02-28 04:48am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 02:50am I'm not sure Hoover is a fair comparison. Hoover was a corrupt bigot. As far as I can see, going after Trump and his accomplices is simply doing their job, albeit under extraordinary circumstances.

Which is why I don't for a minute believe that they can or will arrest every Congressmember who is opposed to impeaching Trump. For that to happen, we'd need there to be an outright coup/counter-revolution first, with the Constitution thrown out in the process, as "opposes impeaching the President" is a political view, not an indictable offense under the law. Remember, contrary to what the Trumpers claim, the job of the FBI in this is to investigate possible crimes and arrest criminals who have broken Federal law, not to destroy the Republican Party (however thoroughly its destruction is warranted and necessary for the good of the nation).

That is the job of the electorate.

Edit: What may happen to the Republicans is that (if there is sufficient turnout and a vigorous campaign to curtail foreign interference and voter fraud/suppression), the Republicans will lose more and more in swing areas (and more and more states and districts will become purple due to shifting demographics and loss of support in everything but the "angry uneducated old white man" demographic), to the point that the Republican Party becomes a regional party, and withers to irrelevance.

At which point I'd expect the Dems to split into a center-right party (merging with the remnants of the "moderate" Republicans and libertarians) and a progressive/socialist party.
I'm not so sure about that, as the GOP can't divorce themselves from that base... and given that we're seeing the GOP's demographics looking like they are acting more and more like a cornered animal, I'm not going to pretend that we know the scenarios for when they do believe that there is no other option politically...

With Hoover, he might be a bigot, but he did NOT turn the FBI from a laughing stock into one of the most powerful police services on the planet. Anyone that kidnaps in the US is afraid of the FBI, as the Charles Lindbergh Case pretty much started what would become the trend of kidnapping into a literal death sentence in the US. Did he do corrupt things? Given how much shit that was thrown at him and the FBI? He had to make files on EVERYONE politically relevant to survive. Remember, Director Hoover scared the shit out of Tricky Dick... and Tricky Dick had to wait until he died to proceed with the cover up of Watergate.
Which is not a good thing. The FBI should serve the law, not the President, but they should not be the fucking shadow government of America. The President serves at the pleasure of the people, not of the director of the FBI. If that's the outcome you're hoping for here, I think (and certainly hope) that you will be disappointed.

As to the Republicans, I agree that they are tied to the angry white man base. I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I said, which is basically that their dependency on that base is increasingly likely to fuck them long-term.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5958
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by bilateralrope »

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote: 2019-02-28 02:42am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 02:36am A third of Republicans and almost two thirds of all voters believe Trump should be impeached if he obstructed justice:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... 5de4b77ade

With numbers like that, if Mueller finds Trump obstructed justice (and given Trump's public actions and statements, he would lose all credibility if he found anything else), the Congressional leadership will find it very hard to continue to evade the impeachment question.
Here's the thing, the GOP can't allow an impeachment to go forward because they would be primaried by Trump's base who is now their base. That means that if they impeach Trump, they're out of a job; if they don't impeach Trump, then they'll get the FBI who is returning to it's Director Hoover era ways and get hauled into jail...
I wonder how the time before they could next face a primary challenge factors in.
houser2112
Padawan Learner
Posts: 464
Joined: 2006-04-07 07:21am
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by houser2112 »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-27 07:08pmPlease call your representative and urge them to support the initiation of impeachment proceedings against President Trump.
I would love to, but I live in NC-9.
User avatar
GrosseAdmiralFox
Padawan Learner
Posts: 481
Joined: 2019-01-20 01:28pm

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-28 05:47am Which is not a good thing. The FBI should serve the law, not the President, but they should not be the fucking shadow government of America. The President serves at the pleasure of the people, not of the director of the FBI. If that's the outcome you're hoping for here, I think (and certainly hope) that you will be disappointed.
Problem, the DoJ would be without teeth if it doesn't have an attack dog to keep the other two branches in line. Congress and the Presidency have always told the DoJ where to fuck off unless either branch backs them. Andrew Jackson's -effectively- 'MAKE ME' statement to the Supreme Court during his time as presidency shows how toothless it is without Congress backing it up (or vice versa when Congress basically told the DoJ to make them). The DoJ thus needs someone -in this case the FBI- to tell either branch that if they don't toe the line, then they will be made to.

That is why there is a limit on the FBI director's term, and the US has been poorer for that as while Director Hoover was a paranoid asshole, he was a lawful, somewhat apolitical, nation-patriot paranoid asshole.
bilateralrope wrote: 2019-02-28 06:25am I wonder how the time before they could next face a primary challenge factors in.
Due to the Progressives making basically all of Congress directly elected, they're on perma-campaign mode, even the senators. So if they don't toe the line of Trump's base, then they get primaried rather quick.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

houser2112 wrote: 2019-02-28 08:24am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-02-27 07:08pmPlease call your representative and urge them to support the initiation of impeachment proceedings against President Trump.
I would love to, but I live in NC-9.
Then call Pelosi (as Speaker and majority leader, she has responsibilities to the entire Congress and country, not merely her own constituency) and tell her not to stand in the way of justice.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5193
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by LaCroix »

The most interesting part is that Cohen flat out told (and provided documentary evidence in the form of financial documents he had copies of) of Trump committing multiple cases of financial felony fraud - inflating&deflating his assets when applying for loans or negotiating for insurance. Manafort and Cohen already got convicted for the same.

There are so many crimes adding up, it's insane...
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

LaCroix wrote: 2019-03-01 05:30pm The most interesting part is that Cohen flat out told (and provided documentary evidence in the form of financial documents he had copies of) of Trump committing multiple cases of financial felony fraud - inflating&deflating his assets when applying for loans or negotiating for insurance. Manafort and Cohen already got convicted for the same.

There are so many crimes adding up, it's insane...
Frankly, if the DON'T impeach Trump, they are simply making a mockery of the entire concept of the rule of law, and of everybody being equal before the law. They are saying that there is one man (the Supreme Leader) who gets carte blanche, whatever he does.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-03-02 02:13am
LaCroix wrote: 2019-03-01 05:30pm The most interesting part is that Cohen flat out told (and provided documentary evidence in the form of financial documents he had copies of) of Trump committing multiple cases of financial felony fraud - inflating&deflating his assets when applying for loans or negotiating for insurance. Manafort and Cohen already got convicted for the same.

There are so many crimes adding up, it's insane...
Frankly, if the DON'T impeach Trump, they are simply making a mockery of the entire concept of the rule of law, and of everybody being equal before the law. They are saying that there is one man (the Supreme Leader) who gets carte blanche, whatever he does.
That ship sailed during the Iran-Contra hearings.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote: 2019-03-02 02:43am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-03-02 02:13am
LaCroix wrote: 2019-03-01 05:30pm The most interesting part is that Cohen flat out told (and provided documentary evidence in the form of financial documents he had copies of) of Trump committing multiple cases of financial felony fraud - inflating&deflating his assets when applying for loans or negotiating for insurance. Manafort and Cohen already got convicted for the same.

There are so many crimes adding up, it's insane...
Frankly, if the DON'T impeach Trump, they are simply making a mockery of the entire concept of the rule of law, and of everybody being equal before the law. They are saying that there is one man (the Supreme Leader) who gets carte blanche, whatever he does.
That ship sailed during the Iran-Contra hearings.
And look where we are now. At some point there need to start being consequences, rather than Pelosi sitting there calculating whether doing her duty is the politically safe thing to do.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

I agree with you 100%, Rom. There should've been consequences then, and there need to be consequences now.

As for your post either in this thread or another N&P thread about cynicism being the order of the day, when it comes to the fact that too many in both parties are corrupt, self-serving weasel turds, yes, that is an excuse for a cynical acceptance of the way things supposedly are(and nearly every conspiracy theory exploits this), but it shouldn't be.

It never had to be this way, but it is, because, quite frankly, this is the way the cynics want it, so, we get it. And, since the cynics speak the loudest, that's what we're going to keep getting, unless we get off our asses, and make our voices heard.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Cohen Hearings "should be seen as the first hearing" in Trump impeachment.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Those thinking impeachment isn't in the cards might want to think again: The House Judiciary Committee has begun an investigation into whether Trump and his aids are guilty of corruption, abuse of power, and obstruction of justice. Committee chairman Congressman Nadler says he believes Trump has committed obstruction of justice. 60 individuals will reportedly receive requests for documents starting Monday.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47434819
Mr Nadler said he believed Trump had obstructed justice.

But any impeachment move would depend on the results of the inquiry.
Bolding mine.

They may not be saying the "I" word out loud yet, but given that there's a fairly strong obstruction case based just on what's public record, there's really only one place an obstruction inquiry by the House can end (presuming said inquiry is not being conducted with the purpose of covering for Trump, which thanks to the November election results, it won't be). And that is a recommendation to impeach.

I wouldn't have said this this morning, but I'm saying it now: Its coming, and I'd bet good money on that.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Post Reply