Trump Administration launches global campaign to end criminalization of homosexuality

[Proletarian]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna973081

BERLIN — The Trump administration is launching a global campaign to end the criminalization of homosexuality in dozens of nations where it's still illegal to be gay, U.S. officials tell NBC News, a bid aimed in part at denouncing Iran over its human rights record.

U.S. Ambassador to Germany Richard Grenell, the highest-profile openly gay person in the Trump administration, is leading the effort, which kicks off Tuesday evening in Berlin. The U.S. embassy is flying in LGBT activists from across Europe for a strategy dinner to plan to push for decriminalization in places that still outlaw homosexuality — mostly concentrated in the Middle East, Africa and the Caribbean.

“It is concerning that, in the 21st century, some 70 countries continue to have laws that criminalize LGBTI status or conduct,” said a U.S. official involved in organizing the event.

Although the decriminalization strategy is still being hashed out, officials say it’s likely to include working with global organizations like the United Nations, the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, as well as other countries whose laws already allow for gay rights. Other U.S. embassies and diplomatic posts throughout Europe, including the U.S. Mission to the E.U., are involved, as is the State Department’s Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor.

Several contradictory impulses are no doubt at work here:

(A) Domestically, the friction between Muslims and identitarian liberals on one hand and and LGBT individuals on the other is one of the weakest points in the Democratic coalition. A highly publicized campaign against legal prohibition of homosexuality in the Muslim world helps to serve Trump's immediate political interests by creating a wedge issue between these groups.

(B) Geostrategically, emphasizing the issue of gay rights in the Islamic world will probably serve to mitigate the recent heightened level of public scrutiny Israel has received in America, being the only LGBT-sympathetic nation in the region.

(C) It's always easier to corral liberals into supporting imperialism in the service of a higher idea like human rights. This will doubtless gin up domestic support for predations against Iran from some surprising quarters.

However superficially reactionary the Trump Administration is, international Liberalism continues to advance from strength to strength. The only cost to the Administration comes at the expense of a handful of ultra-reactionary fantasists whose goals were never those of the Administration's anyway.

[FaxModem1]

Well, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

[Proletarian]

Well, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

[Proletarian]

Well, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

That is precisely how progress occurs under liberalism.

[The Romulan Republic]

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

That is precisely how progress occurs under liberalism.

So what's your argument? "All human rights are just a cover for Western Imperialism, so we should just support dictators and bigots"? Or is there something I'm missing here?

[Proletarian]

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

That is precisely how progress occurs under liberalism.

So what's your argument? "All human rights are just a cover for Western Imperialism, so we should just support dictators and bigots"? Or is there something I'm missing here?

That the advancement of human rights - an objective good - is inextricably intertwined with the advance of capitalist imperialism and always has been. Two things can be true simultaneously: the global advance of those rights is desirable, and the imperialist ambitions they're rooted in are undesirable.

This is a process not subject to moral or ethical consideration. All we can do is let the internal tensions within the process play out. Moreover, your and my 'support' is irrelevant. Our partisanship as individuals is profoundly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, that's a depressingly cynical attitude, but still far better than I've come to expect in these conversations, which is reflexive attacks on the concept of human rights as imperialist, and knee-jerk defence of dictators as long as they're non-Western.

It ultimately seems a self-defeating view of the world, however. If you believe that your individual actions are meaningless, that things will just "play out", then doesn't that invite apathy and inaction, while those who are more motivated (ie the neo-fascists, who very aggressively push their views at every opportunity) will dominate the discussion?

[Proletarian]

Well, that's a depressingly cynical attitude, but still far better than I've come to expect in these conversations, which is reflexive attacks on the concept of human rights as imperialist, and knee-jerk defence of dictators as long as they're non-Western.

I'm an internationalist, and as such no friendlier to non-Western than to Western imperialism.

It ultimately seems a self-defeating view of the world, however. If you believe that your individual actions are meaningless, that things will just "play out", then doesn't that invite apathy and inaction, while those who are more motivated (ie the neo-fascists, who very aggressively push their views at every opportunity) will dominate the discussion?

I'm pretty well convinced that social developments like fascism are defeated more by their own internal logic and structure than by conscious activity. What really defeated Nazi Germany was its drive for autarky and subsequent need to invade the Soviet Union to acquire oil and rubber, for example (Buna was never going to be a viable replacement for the real thing).

I mentioned previously that there is a globalizing logic at the heart of these newly-emergent nationalist movements, and this is a prime example of it. The contradiction between isolationist populism and the outward drive at the core of the capitalist liberal order will undermine Trumpism, and sooner rather than later. But Trumpism is just an epiphenomenon, a symptom of far greater structural problems at work within the social order.

[The Romulan Republic]

The thought of Trumpism and its like imploding internally is certainly a comforting one, but not one I'm prepared to bank on. To take your example of the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany, it may have been driven by Nazism's internal conditions and impulses, but it also took the struggles and loss of tens of millions of Soviet Soldiers and civilians (backed up by American-made weapons and supplies) to make those consequences stick. Nazism did not simply implode from within. It was defeated from without.

[AniThyng]

The practical issue is how this is supposed to be achieved without what basically amounts to diplomatic and economic coercion of the countries concerned.

[AniThyng]

Well, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

1) the Muslim world is probably a more challenging issue than Putin here
2) the problem is while gay rights are a moral right, the means by which you could expect this to be imposed by an external actor usually is inseparable from cultural imperialism.

Edit: I mean seriously, how do you expect say, a local political party advocating for gay rights and receiving American funding to do so looks like?! The optics are obviously going to be just as bad as when "Russians" influence your elections.

[Proletarian]

The practical issue is how this is supposed to be achieved without what basically amounts to diplomatic and economic coercion of the countries concerned.

It's pretty apparent that diplomatic and economic coercion is the desired result here.

[ray245]

Well, that's a depressingly cynical attitude, but still far better than I've come to expect in these conversations, which is reflexive attacks on the concept of human rights as imperialist, and knee-jerk defence of dictators as long as they're non-Western.

It ultimately seems a self-defeating view of the world, however. If you believe that your individual actions are meaningless, that things will just "play out", then doesn't that invite apathy and inaction, while those who are more motivated (ie the neo-fascists, who very aggressively push their views at every opportunity) will dominate the discussion?

We have to look at the possible ramifications and after effects, from a non-western POV.

One of the main challenge faced by LGBT activists in conservative countries is the idea that LGBT tolerance and acceptance are a western idea. Rather than helping people in these countries see it as a universal goal, people are seeing it as a form of westernisation vs non-westernisation.

[bilateralrope]

The practical issue is how this is supposed to be achieved without what basically amounts to diplomatic and economic coercion of the countries concerned.

It's pretty apparent that diplomatic and economic coercion is the desired result here.

Which specific methods are we talking about ?

Which things are going to be restricted to convince the country in question to change their stance on homosexuality.

[The Romulan Republic]

Less a matter of "being right" and more as a cover for imperial designs in the Third World and a wedge against progressive opposition at home.

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

1) the Muslim world is probably a more challenging issue than Putin here

Its not an "either/or"- there are many fronts on which this issue needs to be addressed, including Islamic extremism, and also Christian fundamentalism in the US. That said, I would advise against treating "the Muslim world' as a homogenous block, which is a different proposition altogether than my criticisms of Putin, which attack a specific person/regime for specific acts (you'll note I very specifically referred to "Putin" and not "Russians").

2) the problem is while gay rights are a moral right, the means by which you could expect this to be imposed by an external actor usually is inseparable from cultural imperialism.

Edit: I mean seriously, how do you expect say, a local political party advocating for gay rights and receiving American funding to do so looks like?! The optics are obviously going to be just as bad as when "Russians" influence your elections.

There are ways to promote gay rights abroad short of illegal campaign donations.

[AniThyng]

Supporting gay rights is absolutely the right thing. Its a fucking shame that Trump's likely selfish and corrupt motives will make it easy for the Usual Suspects to repeat their favourite refrain of "human rights are Western Imperialism", and that this will be used to bolster Putin's attacks on homosexuality by portraying gay rights as a Western plot.

1) the Muslim world is probably a more challenging issue than Putin here

Its not an "either/or"- there are many fronts on which this issue needs to be addressed, including Islamic extremism, and also Christian fundamentalism in the US. That said, I would advise against treating "the Muslim world' as a homogenous block, which is a different proposition altogether than my criticisms of Putin, which attack a specific person/regime for specific acts (you'll note I very specifically referred to "Putin" and not "Russians").

2) the problem is while gay rights are a moral right, the means by which you could expect this to be imposed by an external actor usually is inseparable from cultural imperialism.

Edit: I mean seriously, how do you expect say, a local political party advocating for gay rights and receiving American funding to do so looks like?! The optics are obviously going to be just as bad as when "Russians" influence your elections.

There are ways to promote gay rights abroad short of illegal campaign donations.

Fine, individual Muslim societies where LGBT are discriminated against, often institutionally via legal and official means.

As to the second point, ultimately we are pushing for decriminalisation which means political/legal change. Politics will be involved at some point, be it via political parties or NGOs or government. It might also involve influence campaigns and media. While the end goal of LGBT rights is good, the methods are not going to be all too distinguishable from other ways in which Nations and elections are influenced, yes?

[B5B7]

One of the best ways to morally influence another society is by example. If the USA cleans up its own backyard then it will be more influential.
There are still lots of forms of discrimination within the US including against LGBT people, especially at state and county level.
So the active promotion of good behaviour at federal, state and county level should be pursued.

[wautd]

Wow, I never tought the Trump administration would do something I can agree with

[K. A. Pital]

Trump should end it in the British Carribean territories like St. Kitts and Nevis, notorious tax havens, as it is the closest point to the US where homosexuality is criminalized. But I am not holding my breath for either that or the end of criminalization of homosexuality in Saudi Arabia. The target is obviously Iran, because Trump failed to isolate Iran economically and now strives to achieve this isolation via other means.

As an aside, comrade Proletarian here is idealistically saying all “human rights” are an objective good. No evaluation of their concrete-historical role? This is poor judgement.

Suffice to shortly note that he is wrong - “human rights”, of course, are not bad nor only are they a ruse or simply “Western imperialism”, but they fundamentally originate from alienation & inequality, and the existence of rights is only a necessity at the current stage of human development due to the, in this particular case, sexual orientation inequality generated by religious cults in prior centuries. Much like the “right” to breathe, when no restriction on a sexual orientation or any other minority are found, the rights disappear, become a mundane part of daily life, as they are fully realized through equality and lack of restrictions for these people. Only when inequality is present, are rights having any meaning.

Antagonistic views of gay rights in the Third World, however, can be thoroughly resolved by the weakening of religious cults and old prejudices, and this can be achieved through the reversal of the Third World’s deeply wretched, disfigured “development”. However, the West simultaneously upholds the religious rights, and thereby basically is caught in its own trap. Is supporting gay rights not Islamophobic, because it will require a large-scale secularization of the Islamic nations and as such, would precipitate a decline of Islam to near-irrelevance, as it has happened with Christianity in the most secular European nations? Of course the religious power will resist this - should it be broken down? One set of rights interferes directly via human actions with another set of rights.

Thus there are “human rights” which are here and now reactionary, when manifested through real, concrete human action.

As an addition to the above, this shows just how shallow all vectors of attack on Trump and his oligarch circle are from a standpoint of human rights alone, from a liberal-democratic point of view. Trump may, out of expediency, uphold all these rights, even if in word much more than in deed, and thereby disarm the liberal opposition. He can even restrict select human rights at home while declaring to fight for the same rights abroad.

The only real vector of attack on Trump where Trump is unable to disarm the opposition and unable to deflect the criticism, is an attack on the capitalist ruling class as such and Trump as its representative.

[The Romulan Republic]

Wow, I never tought the Trump administration would do something I can agree with

Look for the poison pill beneath the sugary coating.

Besides, its Trump. The chances that he'll effectively follow through are minimal.