Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent bid).

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-02-15 09:17am

K. A. Pital wrote:
2019-02-15 04:25am
TRR, sorry, but I do not see „hate speech“. It is a discussion about electoral college and criticism of Soros in particular is not equivalent to hate speech, just as criticism of the State of Israel is or its lobbying organizations is not anti-Semitism.
Discussion of the electoral college isn't, but that wasn't criticism of Soros, because Soros doesn't actually do that. The whole "Soros is cutting checks to liberal agitators" is a common right-wing conspiracy theory. Bringing up Soros in particular is always a red flag, because there are a lot of wealthy liberal donors, but there is an obsessive right-wing focus on Soros because he's a wealthy liberal Jewish donor. I'm not saying OW believes that conspiracy theory, but he obviously knows the implication of it or he wouldn't have specifically said it in order to bait TRR.



Now, with that out of the way, since once again people are peddling in bullshit about the Electoral College, I once again feel the need to point out the bullshit that so many people have bought about it.

Bullshit Item #1: The EC benefits small states.
That particular meme only holds true when you assume 100% participation. And it sometimes assumes not just 100% voter participation, but 100% participation from the total population, since often the calculations used to "demonstrate" how it benefits small states involves dividing the state's total population by the number of electoral votes.

Electoral votes are allocated to the states based on total population, but awarded based on voter participation. In truth, what the EC truly benefits are states with large populations with a significant percentage that is unable to vote. Historically, this meant slave states. Electoral votes are allocated based on total number of representatives + senators. Slaves counted as 3/5th of a person in terms of calculating congressional representation, but were by design unable to vote. And initially the vote was restricted to white male property owners, which people usually equated with landowners, except slave owners 1) tended to also own land, and 2) could qualify even if they didn't because slaves were also property. The more slaves there were in a state, the more voting power was artificially inflated for the slave owners. In early elections, Virginia was by far one of the biggest beneficiaries of the electoral college, and it was the largest state in terms of free population, and had more slaves than some smaller states had total number of people, free or slave. If the founders built the EC to benefit small states, they did a shitty job of it because it didn't even hold true in the first elections after they created it.

Since we live in a post-abolition society, the modern implication of all of that is that states are incentivized to suppress the votes of demographics that tend to oppose the party in power. Suppressing the vote hurts a state when the president is selected by national popular vote, since it decreases the relative voting power of that state compared to states that don't suppress the vote. But under the EC, suppressing the vote is rewarded because the state's relative voting power compared to other states remains constant, but the voting power of the people in that state who retain their right to vote is massively inflated.

Bullshit item #2: If we didn't have the EC, then big cities would decide every election.
The US population is not that concentrated. If you added up every single city in the country with more than 1,000,000 people, you get a total of about 8% of the population. Outside of severe legal shenanigans, it's pretty much functionally impossible to cram a majority of the voting population into that small of a percentage.

However, an interesting thing does happen when you introduce the electoral college. New York, the biggest city in the country, is a little over 2.6% of the US population. However, it is over 44% of the New York state population. That makes it much easier for New York City to decide state-wide elections...like choosing which candidate gets the state's electoral votes. This plays out to a lesser degree all over the country. Chicago is 0.8% of the US population, but over 21% of the Illinois population. LA, San Diego, and San Jose, the 3 cities in California with more than a million people, combine to total almost 2% of the US population, but make up 16% of the California population. Columbus, the largest city in Ohio, is about 0.2% of the US population, but 7.5% of Ohio's population. And Columbus doesn't even make it into the 1 million population club. The EC actually gives more potential influence to cities than a national popular vote, since the cities comprise a much larger percentage of their state's populations than they do the nation as a whole.

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by K. A. Pital » 2019-02-15 09:47am

Flame-baiting with Soros conspiracy theories, then?

I would say the post was still 90% substance, even if the arguments do not have legs to stand on.

But OW should know that such borderline flame-baiting is not contributing anything substantial to the discussion and should cease.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Ralin » 2019-02-15 01:07pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-02-15 09:17am

Discussion of the electoral college isn't, but that wasn't criticism of Soros, because Soros doesn't actually do that. The whole "Soros is cutting checks to liberal agitators" is a common right-wing conspiracy theory. Bringing up Soros in particular is always a red flag, because there are a lot of wealthy liberal donors, but there is an obsessive right-wing focus on Soros because he's a wealthy liberal Jewish donor. I'm not saying OW believes that conspiracy theory, but he obviously knows the implication of it or he wouldn't have specifically said it in order to bait TRR.
It wasn't criticism, no. It was mocking Rom's habit of calling people fascists and traitors by riffing off the right-wing conspiracy theory crap about (((Soros))) bankrolling liberals.

(You see what I did there with the parenthesis? It's sarcasm. Referencing the fact that it's an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. Just want to make that clear)

Like, you do realize that, right? Because it seems pretty obvious. And last I checked mocking people while making an argument was allowed here. It certainly isn't anymore flame-baiting than Rom routinely calling people fascists, quislings, lickspittles for Putin, etc. Which he does. Often. Because of the Nazi Tourette's thing.

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-02-15 11:45pm

Its just more Kremlin/Alt. Reich-style Whataboutism: Pretend that attacking people for their race is "just as bad" as attacking people for their politics and actions. Just like Ralin pretends that my wanting both sides to have to campaign on a fair playing field is really my wanting to rig the game so my side wins. Just like he claims that "wanting everyone's vote to count equally" is me wanting to disenfranchise those who currently hold disproportionate power (Tell me, Ralin, was it "disenfranchising white people" when black people got the vote? Or disenfranchising men when women got the vote? By your argument, it would be.). Its all false equivalencies to obfuscate the issues, to make it so that there is no right or wrong, no up or down, no real or false- except really its to discredit their enemies, because you'll note that even though Both Sides Are Just As Bad, somehow liberal democracy always ends up being the real bad guys. Maybe its because we're hypocrites, whereas the Alt. Reich is honest in its dishonesty. Because we have the audacity to stand for ideals, even if we are imperfect, whereas the other side stands for nothing but the cynical exercise of power for the benefit of their side, where everything is fair game and the only real villains are those who dare to actually believe in anything.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Ralin » 2019-02-16 01:24am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-15 11:45pm
Just like Ralin pretends that my wanting both sides to have to campaign on a fair playing field is really my wanting to rig the game so my side wins.
Literally your main proof that the electoral college is unfair or undemocratic is that Republicans keep winning. You have said this repeatedly.
Just like he claims that "wanting everyone's vote to count equally" is me wanting to disenfranchise those who currently hold disproportionate power
Everyone's vote counts equally now. Everyone is equally entitled to a vote in their state's electoral college. You're the one who wants to change that. You've given no reason for doing this other than REEEing about how the electoral college is bad and undemocratic, when in reality the electoral college is good and democratic.
(Tell me, Ralin, was it "disenfranchising white people" when black people got the vote? Or disenfranchising men when women got the vote? By your argument, it would be.)
Racist little fuck, aren't you? No universal suffrage is not the same as reworking the entire system to make sure the right candidates win presidential elections.
Its all false equivalencies to obfuscate the issues, to make it so that there is no right or wrong, no up or down, no real or false- except really its to discredit their enemies, because you'll note that even though Both Sides Are Just As Bad, somehow liberal democracy always ends up being the real bad guys. Maybe its because we're hypocrites, whereas the Alt. Reich is honest in its dishonesty. Because we have the audacity to stand for ideals, even if we are imperfect, whereas the other side stands for nothing but the cynical exercise of power for the benefit of their side, where everything is fair game and the only real villains are those who dare to actually believe in anything.
No… It’s a bunch of what are for the most part very liberal and left-wing people mocking you for the fact that you’ve spent the past couple years freaking out about Baby’s First Politics and your conviction that America is collectively living out the plot of a particularly shitty spy novel.

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-02-16 02:05am

Ralin wrote:
2019-02-16 01:24am
Literally your main proof that the electoral college is unfair or undemocratic is that Republicans keep winning. You have said this repeatedly.
LIAR.

No, you fucking piece of lying shit*, I did not say that the Electoral College was unfair or undemocratic because Republicans win. I said the Electoral College is unfair and undemocratic because Republicans win against the popular vote. It would be unfair if Democrats won against the popular vote too. But that isn't what's happening, because the majority of Americans do not support the Republican Party.

You are a liar and a coward, who has repeatedly, deliberately, blatantly misrepresented my position to libel me and obfuscated the topic, while refusing to refute my points or support your own with anything other than personal smears, repeating your assertions, and repeating the definition of the Electoral College as though saying "this is the law" somehow proves that the law is just.

Reported for lying and dishonest debating.
Everyone's vote counts equally now.
This is another flat lie, frankly Orwellian in its audacity.

Everyone's vote is not counted equally when some some votes carry more weight than others. That is so self-evident that I don't know what further evidence to offer. Its like demanding that I prove that water is water.
Everyone is equally entitled to a vote in their state's electoral college. You're the one who wants to change that.
Everyone gets an equal vote in their state's Electors (well, if you ignore the voter suppression laws), but since some states' Electors wield far more power, both in absolute terms and relative to their states' populations, than others, they do not, in fact receive equal representation.
You've given no reason for doing this other than REEEing about how the electoral college is bad and undemocratic, when in reality the electoral college is good and democratic.
LIAR.

It is not democratic, and your own arguments have made it clear that you give not a damn for democracy, so stop pretending that you are defending democracy.

I have repeatedly explained why it is undemocratic, and I will not waste further time repeating myself to someone who is obviously arguing in bad faith, and will simply ignore any argument I provide and repeat his (defamatory) talking points.

Remember when blatantly dishonest debating was an offence on this board?
Racist little fuck, aren't you? No universal suffrage is not the same as reworking the entire system to make sure the right candidates win presidential elections.
No, you do not get to call me a "racist little fuck" for pointing out the racist and misogynist implications in your own argument (that giving people who are underrepresented equal representation is disenfranchising those who currently have disproportionate power). Reported for lying, trolling, and defamation.
No… It’s a bunch of what are for the most part very liberal and left-wing people mocking you for the fact that you’ve spent the past couple years freaking out about Baby’s First Politics and your conviction that America is collectively living out the plot of a particularly shitty spy novel.
Trump/Russia is not the topic of this thread, and if your attacks against me are due to my views on that topic, then we can add vendetta to my report. But if I your complaint is my "freaking out" about the fact that the most powerful nation on Earth is now in the hands of a corrupt demagogue who openly seeks dictatorial power while formenting hatred of women and minorities and political dissidents, then I am guilty as charged, and proud of it. Maybe if more people had "freaked out" sooner, we wouldn't be in this mess.

You are as liberal as a Klan rally, and have as much moral and intellectual integrity, and I will waste no more words on a lying troll who has made it clear that he will offer no substantive argument, nor honestly address or acknowledge my own.


*If any moderators have a problem with my language here, please bear in mind that Ralin just called me a "racist little fuck" for no reason other than that I used an analogy to point out the racist implications of taking his own arguments to their logical conclusions. I am merely replying in kind.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Ralin » 2019-02-16 03:01am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-16 02:05am

LIAR.

No, you fucking piece of lying shit*, I did not say that the Electoral College was unfair or undemocratic because Republicans win. I said the Electoral College is unfair and undemocratic because Republicans win against the popular vote. It would be unfair if Democrats won against the popular vote too. But that isn't what's happening, because the majority of Americans do not support the Republican Party.
Yeah, uh…
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-05 08:00pm
You and I both know that this won't be a fair election, just like 2016 wasn't a fair election. People blame the Democrats for not being more effective, but that's disingenuous, because we are always fighting uphill against a systematic campaign of voter suppression (and increasingly outright fraud) by Republicans, coupled with a gerrymandered map and an Electoral College that tends to give Republican-leaning states greater power…
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-25 01:14am
While I'm not certain of the accuracy of your numbers, you are of course correct that simply passing Universal Health Care won't fix everything by itself. We need to be fighting both corporatism and neo-fasism on multiple fronts, containing the threat of fascism and passing stop-gap measures to improve living quality while attacking the underlying systemic weaknesses and corruption.

What we need to do, if you really want to get to root causes, is remove the various mechanisms that the (predominantly white Christian male) wealthy conservatives have put in place to tip the scales in their favour. It would be much easier to talk about systemic reform of anti-trust laws, for example, if a powerful and corrupt minority were less able to tip the political scales in their favour. Because they are NOT the fucking majority. The people who buy their shit are not the majority. In a straight popular vote, without voter suppression, the Republicans would have lost six of the last seven Presidential elections, been creamed in the House, and have lost multiple Senate seats that they currently possess.

We need to neuter or abolish the Electoral College, either get a Supreme Court that will overturn Citizens United or pass a Constitutional amendment declaring that unlimited campaign donations are not protected speech, have automatic voter registration, and probably a bunch of other things.

You want to talk root causes, talk electoral reform. And if you want to cut the legs out from under Neo-Fascism, talk Basic Income.
That’s just in the past month. The one and only reason you’ve ever given for why the popular vote is somehow more democratic and representative of the will of the American people is that it would make it easier for the right candidates to win.
You are a liar and a coward, who has repeatedly, deliberately, blatantly misrepresented my position to libel me and obfuscated the topic, while refusing to refute my points or support your own with anything other than personal smears, repeating your assertions, and repeating the definition of the Electoral College as though saying "this is the law" somehow proves that the law is just.
REEE! REEE!!!
This is another flat lie, frankly Orwellian in its audacity.
Says the guy who wants to literally rewrite the Constitution to stop Republicans from winning presidential elections.
Everyone's vote is not counted equally when some some votes carry more weight than others. That is so self-evident that I don't know what further evidence to offer. Its like demanding that I prove that water is water.
Name a state that gives some residents’ votes more weight in their electoral college.
Everyone gets an equal vote in their state's Electors (well, if you ignore the voter suppression laws), but since some states' Electors wield far more power, both in absolute terms and relative to their states' populations, than others, they do not, in fact receive equal representation.
Stop changing the subject. We’re talking about individual voters here, not states. States receive a different number of electoral ballots because otherwise California and Montana would receive the same number despite their different sizes and populations, something which actually would be undemocratic.
LIAR.
REEE!
It is not democratic, and your own arguments have made it clear that you give not a damn for democracy, so stop pretending that you are defending democracy.

I have repeatedly explained why it is undemocratic, and I will not waste further time repeating myself to someone who is obviously arguing in bad faith, and will simply ignore any argument I provide and repeat his (defamatory) talking points.
You have given absolutely no explanation for how the popular vote is more democratic or representative of the will of the American people than relying on the electoral college other than stating repeatedly that popular votes should matter more.

Still waiting for that, by the way.
No, you do not get to call me a "racist little fuck" for pointing out the racist and misogynist implications in your own argument (that giving people who are underrepresented equal representation is disenfranchising those who currently have disproportionate power).
You literally compared black people and women not being able to vote to you not being able to cynically rewrite the Constitution to make sure the other side loses more.
Reported for lying, trolling, and defamation.
Trump/Russia is not the topic of this thread, and if your attacks against me are due to my views on that topic, then we can add vendetta to my report.
You do realize that if you keep it up with these bullshit reports they’re going to graduate from telling you to shut the fuck up to banning you, right?
You are as liberal as a Klan rally, and have as much moral and intellectual integrity, and I will waste no more words on a lying troll who has made it clear that he will offer no substantive argument, nor honestly address or acknowledge my own.
REEE!

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Gandalf » 2019-02-16 03:43am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-16 02:05am
No, you fucking piece of lying shit*, I did not say that the Electoral College was unfair or undemocratic because Republicans win. I said the Electoral College is unfair and undemocratic because Republicans win against the popular vote. It would be unfair if Democrats won against the popular vote too. But that isn't what's happening, because the majority of Americans do not support the Republican Party.
Isn't the popular vote an illusion? It's a sum of fifty odd (I'm never sure of which US imperial possessions get counted) separate elections with different circumstances and individual variables.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-02-16 08:43am

Ralin wrote:You have given absolutely no explanation for how the popular vote is more democratic or representative of the will of the American people than relying on the electoral college other than stating repeatedly that popular votes should matter more.

Still waiting for that, by the way.
The most basic idea of democracy is one man; one vote, that every voter has an equal say.

I find it hard to believe any one can seriously argue that the electoral college is more representative of the will of the people when less people voted for the winner than the loser.

The only possible explanation is that some people's votes count for less than others. Please explain why this is moral and just that some people just don't have as much say as other.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by AniThyng » 2019-02-16 08:46am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-02-16 08:43am
Ralin wrote:You have given absolutely no explanation for how the popular vote is more democratic or representative of the will of the American people than relying on the electoral college other than stating repeatedly that popular votes should matter more.

Still waiting for that, by the way.
The most basic idea of democracy is one man; one vote, that every voter has an equal say.

I find it hard to believe any one can seriously argue that the electoral college is more representative of the will of the people when less people voted for the winner than the loser.

The only possible explanation is that some people's votes count for less than others. Please explain why this is moral and just that some people just don't have as much say as other.
By this metric most parliamentary systems are undemocratic and immoral...

Edit: since in most parliamentary systems I am familiar with, its often possible to end up with a chief executive that does not in fact represent the will of the total popular vote, and voting districts are often unequal.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-02-16 08:59am

AniThyng wrote:
2019-02-16 08:46am
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-02-16 08:43am
Ralin wrote:You have given absolutely no explanation for how the popular vote is more democratic or representative of the will of the American people than relying on the electoral college other than stating repeatedly that popular votes should matter more.

Still waiting for that, by the way.
The most basic idea of democracy is one man; one vote, that every voter has an equal say.

I find it hard to believe any one can seriously argue that the electoral college is more representative of the will of the people when less people voted for the winner than the loser.

The only possible explanation is that some people's votes count for less than others. Please explain why this is moral and just that some people just don't have as much say as other.
By this metric most parliamentary systems are undemocratic and immoral...
Could you expand on this point further please?

Well personally, I would argue that the "first past the post" system is less democratic than say straight proportional representation would be. If a party gets 20% of the vote spread equally across all constituencies they can get no seats despite widepsread support. If those 20% of the population all moved to the same constituencies, then they'd get seats. It rewards clustering of support over presence of support.

Now they are democratic in the sense one man has an equal say as everyone else in the constituency over the MP, it just doesn't map fairly at the government level.

Now FPTP does have the advantage that the MP is a local person who is direct representative of the area, rather than some one picked off a party list or something, and it generates a better working majority for the government so they can so things (supposedly, you couldn't tell by the last few elections here in the UK) but those advantages don't map to a presidential election.

I see no reason why PotUS can't be just a straight more votes won = winner election.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by AniThyng » 2019-02-16 09:22am

Well you've already noted why most FPTP systems do not really fulfill one man one vote, especially at the national level. And I think you quite well highlighted the issue with distributed support being effectively worthless. Most other systems try to mitigate this as much as possible, true, but iirc you still tend to end up with the winner not necessarily having a majority as opposed to a plurality etc.

That said, isn't it generally so that presidents start their terms with their party holding a majority in the house as well, so arguably the will of the people as expressed by the house also is broadly in line with the presidents. It's only at the midterms that this may change, but that's tangential to the point that at the time any president is elected the majority of the country also supported his party.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Jub » 2019-02-16 09:29am

I should also point out that Hillary also didn't get a majority of the votes in 2016, in a two-party system she didn't even break 50% and when accounting for people who didn't vote the breakdown is:

38.6% No Vote Cast
29.6% Hillary
28.3% Trump
3.5% Other

More people are fed up with the system entirely than voted for either major candidate. This is your democracy in action...

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-02-16 09:34am

Anithyng: That idea that the president should have the majority the houses as well is an interesting one, I hadn't considered. It would be pragmatic I guess but not necessarily following the will of the people.

Jub: What is the typical turn out for a presidential election? Is that figure higher or lower than usual?

There are lots of people who didn't vote sure. I think it would only remarkable and a comment on the state of politics if that percentage was on an increase (or decrease)
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Jub » 2019-02-16 09:41am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-02-16 09:34am
Jub: What is the typical turn out for a presidential election? Is that figure higher or lower than usual?

There are lots of people who didn't vote sure. I think it would only remarkable and a comment on the state of politics if that percentage was on an increase (or decrease)
It was about the same as in 2012 but down 2.2% from 2008, but I don't think it not being a large change means that it isn't alarming. Nearly 40% of the US doesn't feel enfranchised enough to vote in a system that is supposed to give them a voice. That should be statement enough that democracy isn't doing its job properly.

In an ideal system, you'd always find a party that gives you a voice, and no matter which region you're in your vote would count for something. None of this Red district Blue district BS, none of this two party BS; every vote should at least have the chance to mean something and every voter should be able to find representation that fits their views. Do that and voter counts will rise.

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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2019-02-16 09:52am

Ralin wrote:
2019-02-16 03:01am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-16 02:05am

LIAR.

No, you fucking piece of lying shit*, I did not say that the Electoral College was unfair or undemocratic because Republicans win. I said the Electoral College is unfair and undemocratic because Republicans win against the popular vote. It would be unfair if Democrats won against the popular vote too. But that isn't what's happening, because the majority of Americans do not support the Republican Party.
Yeah, uh…
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-02-05 08:00pm
You and I both know that this won't be a fair election, just like 2016 wasn't a fair election. People blame the Democrats for not being more effective, but that's disingenuous, because we are always fighting uphill against a systematic campaign of voter suppression (and increasingly outright fraud) by Republicans, coupled with a gerrymandered map and an Electoral College that tends to give Republican-leaning states greater power…
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-25 01:14am
While I'm not certain of the accuracy of your numbers, you are of course correct that simply passing Universal Health Care won't fix everything by itself. We need to be fighting both corporatism and neo-fasism on multiple fronts, containing the threat of fascism and passing stop-gap measures to improve living quality while attacking the underlying systemic weaknesses and corruption.

What we need to do, if you really want to get to root causes, is remove the various mechanisms that the (predominantly white Christian male) wealthy conservatives have put in place to tip the scales in their favour. It would be much easier to talk about systemic reform of anti-trust laws, for example, if a powerful and corrupt minority were less able to tip the political scales in their favour. Because they are NOT the fucking majority. The people who buy their shit are not the majority. In a straight popular vote, without voter suppression, the Republicans would have lost six of the last seven Presidential elections, been creamed in the House, and have lost multiple Senate seats that they currently possess.

We need to neuter or abolish the Electoral College, either get a Supreme Court that will overturn Citizens United or pass a Constitutional amendment declaring that unlimited campaign donations are not protected speech, have automatic voter registration, and probably a bunch of other things.

You want to talk root causes, talk electoral reform. And if you want to cut the legs out from under Neo-Fascism, talk Basic Income.
That’s just in the past month. The one and only reason you’ve ever given for why the popular vote is somehow more democratic and representative of the will of the American people is that it would make it easier for the right candidates to win.
You are a liar and a coward, who has repeatedly, deliberately, blatantly misrepresented my position to libel me and obfuscated the topic, while refusing to refute my points or support your own with anything other than personal smears, repeating your assertions, and repeating the definition of the Electoral College as though saying "this is the law" somehow proves that the law is just.
REEE! REEE!!!
This is another flat lie, frankly Orwellian in its audacity.
Says the guy who wants to literally rewrite the Constitution to stop Republicans from winning presidential elections.
Everyone's vote is not counted equally when some some votes carry more weight than others. That is so self-evident that I don't know what further evidence to offer. Its like demanding that I prove that water is water.
Name a state that gives some residents’ votes more weight in their electoral college.
Everyone gets an equal vote in their state's Electors (well, if you ignore the voter suppression laws), but since some states' Electors wield far more power, both in absolute terms and relative to their states' populations, than others, they do not, in fact receive equal representation.
Stop changing the subject. We’re talking about individual voters here, not states. States receive a different number of electoral ballots because otherwise California and Montana would receive the same number despite their different sizes and populations, something which actually would be undemocratic.
LIAR.
REEE!
It is not democratic, and your own arguments have made it clear that you give not a damn for democracy, so stop pretending that you are defending democracy.

I have repeatedly explained why it is undemocratic, and I will not waste further time repeating myself to someone who is obviously arguing in bad faith, and will simply ignore any argument I provide and repeat his (defamatory) talking points.
You have given absolutely no explanation for how the popular vote is more democratic or representative of the will of the American people than relying on the electoral college other than stating repeatedly that popular votes should matter more.

Still waiting for that, by the way.
No, you do not get to call me a "racist little fuck" for pointing out the racist and misogynist implications in your own argument (that giving people who are underrepresented equal representation is disenfranchising those who currently have disproportionate power).
You literally compared black people and women not being able to vote to you not being able to cynically rewrite the Constitution to make sure the other side loses more.
Reported for lying, trolling, and defamation.
Trump/Russia is not the topic of this thread, and if your attacks against me are due to my views on that topic, then we can add vendetta to my report.
You do realize that if you keep it up with these bullshit reports they’re going to graduate from telling you to shut the fuck up to banning you, right?
You are as liberal as a Klan rally, and have as much moral and intellectual integrity, and I will waste no more words on a lying troll who has made it clear that he will offer no substantive argument, nor honestly address or acknowledge my own.
REEE!
Hi! It wasn't just him who reported you. In addition, while dealing with reports can be annoying, it's what we've told him to do so we're not punishing him for it.

You on the other hand... you're going to stop misrepresenting his argument. You're going to stop arguing by repetition. Oh, and you're going to stop using "REEE!" to mock him, because that mocks people on the autism spectrum and borders on hate speech. We don't tolerate that here, and it definitely does not endear you to the forum mod who is on the autism spectrum. Jackass.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Gandalf » 2019-02-16 10:05am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-02-16 08:43am
The most basic idea of democracy is one man; one vote, that every voter has an equal say.

I find it hard to believe any one can seriously argue that the electoral college is more representative of the will of the people when less people voted for the winner than the loser.

The only possible explanation is that some people's votes count for less than others. Please explain why this is moral and just that some people just don't have as much say as other.
You're framing this as one election. Think of it as fifty-odd individual elections joined together in a ridiculous system designed to benefit wealthy slaveholders, which is a helpful way to look at most American institutions.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-02-16 11:00am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-02-16 10:05am
Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-02-16 08:43am
The most basic idea of democracy is one man; one vote, that every voter has an equal say.

I find it hard to believe any one can seriously argue that the electoral college is more representative of the will of the people when less people voted for the winner than the loser.

The only possible explanation is that some people's votes count for less than others. Please explain why this is moral and just that some people just don't have as much say as other.
You're framing this as one election. Think of it as fifty-odd individual elections joined together in a ridiculous system designed to benefit wealthy slaveholders, which is a helpful way to look at most American institutions.
This is true of the system as it is, I agree. It's not a justification for the system to remain so. Nor to justify the statement that it reflects 'the will of the people'. Which is the claim I was originally disputing.
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Re: Selfish, egotistical asshole plans to hand 2020 to Trump on silver platter (Howard Schultz considering independent b

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-02-16 01:48pm

TOPIC LOCKED, Due to multiple reports on multiple people in this thread.

Stop acting like children, we have debating rules for a reason!
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