Ocasio-Cortez proposes a 70% tax on the most wealthy to pay for a "Green New Deal".

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Jub
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez proposes a 70% tax on the most wealthy to pay for a "Green New Deal".

Post by Jub » 2019-01-16 09:01am

Broomstick wrote:
2019-01-16 06:30am
You don't get it. The switch has already been thrown. We are standing on Easter Island the day after the last tree was cut down.
Yet you get mad at me for suggesting that you, who lived when there were yet hundreds of trees left, instead gave your money to care for injured lumberjacks. After all, those lumberjacks were suffering now, and if you can't help people now, what's the point in having any trees left later.
Not "possible" scam, definite scam. "some members of the public"? Some members of the public believe the earth is flat.
Yeah, and their vote counts for as much as yours does... It's why voting alone doesn't absolve one of guilt for how things have turned out.
Used as the UK does? Doesn't seem to be a problem - but YOU were talking about suppressing freedom of speech and information so people won't dissent from your "paradise".
Where was that statement made? Can you provide a quote or are you reading between the lines to find things to attack me about?
That's what makes it a police state. The only speech is what you allow, the only thought is what you find acceptable, and those you view as disposable should just shuffle off to the showers without complaint - that's what makes your vision a police state dystopia.
Those are an awful lot of words I never said...
Yes, because it treats the symptom and not the cause. Suppressing the speech doesn't make the hate go away, it drives it underground where it's harder to see and track.
It also makes their recruiting more limited and limits access to resources because of that. It makes it hard to grow the movement and ensures that you basically have to seek them out or have them consciously approach you to even try a recruiting pitch.

Would you honestly say, "Hey Thanas, your country's hate-speech laws suck and I, an American who doesn't live there, think they're wrong and should be repealed?" How do you think that would go and why would it result in you getting schooled by Thanas on history and sociology?
We already have laws against libel and fraud, we don't need more of them, we need to enforce the laws we have.
So the fake news case against Fox didn't set precedence for allowing the reporting of false news stories and that this necessitates new law to be drafted to close these loopholes...
No, because false advertising causes harm to people.
Kind of like fake news and open displays of Nazism do, and yet you're apparently okay with those.
Outside of medical reasons contraindicating them, no.
So you're fine with CPS taking those children away or vaccinating those children against the wishes of their parents then? You'd violate that freedom?
No. It's appalling that that is allowed.
Sounds like Broomstick the tyrant wants to take children away from loving parents and doesn't respect freedom of religion!

BROOMSTICK SAYS WE SHOULD GIVE PLATFORMS TO NAZIS, SHOULDN'T ALLOW POLICE TO MONITOR PUBLIC SPACES, THAT FAKE NEWS IS AN ACCEPTABLE COST FOR FREE SPEECH, AND THAT PARENTS SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO RAISE THEIR KIDS IF THEY MAKE CHOICES SHE DOESN'T SUPPORT.

See how it feels when people put in words and ideas you didn't say to make your point seem worse?
Given what you've already written about being willing to sacrifice others for saving the planet how do you justify any luxuries for yourself at all?
I don't. I've already stated that I'm worthless and should be among the culled.
Because our government doesn't have "special elections". We have impeachment and removal. Are you advocating that Trump be removed outside of lawful means? Is that really what you want in a nation you already regard as dangerous?
What's the other option? Give him a real shot at winning again in 2020?
Baring felons from voting is not universal, whether or not that is the case and details regarding restoration of civil rights after a conviction varies from US state to state. 38 states allow convicted people to vote after serving their prison terms. Two states allow people to vote from prison. Felons most certainly can run for public office - Marion Barry, for example, was elected mayor of Washington, DC after a felony drug conviction.
They still have restricted rights and less culapability for the current situation than fully voting citizens do.
Again, you're advocating overturning the rule of law. Are you SURE you want to do that?

Also - threatening the PotUS is a pretty bad idea. It's unlikely the Secret Service is reading your posts (they're not getting paid, either) and even less likely they'd pay you a visit, but do consider while you're speeching freely that words can have consequences.
You're the one who suggested it? Not me.
Several dozen, in fact - they got better, straightened out their lives, either got some education to get a good job or were reinstated in their prior roles. One lady in particular didn't get better herself but all five of her kids went on to higher education and middle-class lives without the dysfunctional crap she lived through so poverty didn't extend into another generation. You've bought into the myth that poverty is inescapable and multi-generational. No, often it is a temporary situation (albeit one that can last years) and even when multiple generations have been afflicted the next one is not inherently doomed. I spend years of my life trying to help people get out of poverty and drug addiction and crime and sometimes even succeeded.

Sometimes things do get better. Sometimes you can truly help people not just eat a meal but enable them to feed themselves for a lifetime.
Mostly you can't though. I'd also suspect that those cases oocured in better times politically and financially. Upwards mobility was much easier to come by in the 70's, 80's and 90's than at any point in my adult life.
Advocating the deaths of millions is not "fixing things".
Advocating we stand idelly by while as many die by other means is equally not fixing things.
That's triage, not medicine. When it's not a disaster or emergency yes, in fact, doctors will attempt to treat someone with NO chance of survival if that person is willing to try something new or experimental, or just wants a little more time to put their affairs in order and say goodbye. If there are resources available you don't abandon the dying.
So long as we stay bound to the current system and this one planet resources will always remain limited and stretched to near breaking. This is my point.
So... if we shouldn't expend anything resources, effort, or sympathy on the hopeless how do you justify giving money to people you haven't evaluated for "hope"?
I don't. It's a moment of weakness and despair and I give to feel better emotionally and lie to myself about making a difference.
So... you'd walk by someone falling into a diabetic crisis and just ignore them? WTF? At least call for an ambulance!
That's not what I said.
If you reach space by slaughtering half the human race in the name of "saving" the other half you will NOT wind up with a society of equals that shares everything nicely. You will end up with "might makes right" - because that's how you got there - and you would long for the days of US-style capitalism even with all of its glaring flaws.
Perhaps, but with so many free resources, it wouldn't be impossible to hijack a can and move elsewhere if one wished.
You are assuming it's possible for us to get into space. I do not. Even if/when we do get out there it's going to be a long, long time before those resources are available in meaningful quantities, and those in space will be dependent on the Earth for a long time before achieving self-sufficiency on a level that could save the species if Earth became uninhabitable.

We're in a lifeboat and you're pointing to the horizon saying there's dry land over there, lets put all our effort into rowing... but if you don't try to patch the leaks in the boat, bail water, and keep the rowers healthy it doesn't matter that there's dry land over there, you'll never reach it. It's not enough to try hard, you have to try hard in the right manner or you won't reach your goal.
I say that we'd be able to row faster if we chucked a few of the obviously dead and dying over the side and used their resources to patch those holes and feed those still able to row.
The flame war has been fun, but my vacation is over and I have to go back to working for a living so no more long screeds from me.
If this is really done, let me just say that I do respect your efforts in helping others and the skills you've used to survive what many would have allowed to break them and drive them to despair. Though we have very different world views, I know that you've tried very hard to make the world a better place. You have my deep and honest respect for that.

I push as hard as I do in these debates to see where people's lines are. To get to know them in a way not possible outside of a real offline friendship. I know it's an odd way of doing things, but I really think you learn more from a heat screaming match followed by post-match beers and apologies that you do by conforming to the rules of civil debate.

Thanks for not just walking off in disgust and allowing our conversation to continue. Thank you for showing me some glimmers of light streaming in through the current fabric of darkness.

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FireNexus
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez proposes a 70% tax on the most wealthy to pay for a "Green New Deal".

Post by FireNexus » 2019-01-16 12:18pm

My policy proposal: Exempt all state or multistate lottery winnings from income tax. Make it a big, vocal part of the push. You’d see a lot of poor people lose or soften their resistance to high marginal rates if you did this. The temporarily embarrassed millionaires thing goes away iwhen the only context in which most people see themselves being millionaires isn’t impacted.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

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SCRawl
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez proposes a 70% tax on the most wealthy to pay for a "Green New Deal".

Post by SCRawl » 2019-01-16 12:39pm

FireNexus wrote:
2019-01-16 12:18pm
My policy proposal: Exempt all state or multistate lottery winnings from income tax. Make it a big, vocal part of the push. You’d see a lot of poor people lose or soften their resistance to high marginal rates if you did this. The temporarily embarrassed millionaires thing goes away iwhen the only context in which most people see themselves being millionaires isn’t impacted.
That's how it is in the socialist paradise of Canuckistan.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.

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His Divine Shadow
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Re: Ocasio-Cortez proposes a 70% tax on the most wealthy to pay for a "Green New Deal".

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2019-01-21 01:12am

AOC is pretty cool, to translate a saying I'd say she is putting the cat on the table. Or pointing out the elephant in the room.

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1087098617968685057
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1087100176857214977
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.

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