UK government in historic first

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
B5B7
Jedi Knight
Posts: 722
Joined: 2005-10-22 02:02am
Location: Perth Western Australia
Contact:

UK government in historic first

Post by B5B7 » 2018-12-04 11:22pm

For the first time in British history the government has been found in contempt of parliament. The Brexit mess continues.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/ ... 19741.html
TVWP: "Janeway says archly, "Sometimes it's the female of the species that initiates mating." Is the female of the species trying to initiate mating now? Janeway accepts Paris's apology and tells him she's putting him in for a commendation. The salamander sex was that good."
"Not bad - for a human"-Bishop to Ripley
GALACTIC DOMINATION Empire Board Game visit link below:
GALACTIC DOMINATION

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-12-05 10:38am

I didn't know that was even a thing until this week.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12475
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-12-05 02:48pm

But how does that even work? Isn't Parliament the government? (American here)
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
DaZergRock54444
Padawan Learner
Posts: 178
Joined: 2010-02-08 05:30pm
Location: Behind a counter. Which one, I couldn't tell...

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by DaZergRock54444 » 2018-12-05 03:11pm

Based on vague context clues (also Yank), I gather that the government is basically the Prime Minister and her Cabinet.
Brits are more than welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
Instead of foodservice equipment, let's play with large format projectors.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14562
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-05 03:22pm

Put simply, the government is simply the party (plus any coalitions) which has enough seats in the legislature to form a majority. Once they have this majority, they "form government," and can fill positions like PM, Cabinet, etc.

It's a pretty good system overall.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3691
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Formless » 2018-12-05 03:29pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-12-05 02:48pm
But how does that even work? Isn't Parliament the government? (American here)
My understanding (also as an American) is that the word "government" can mean two things under a parliamentary system. On the one hand, it can mean the same thing as here, the system of power that governs the nation. But because all the ministers, bureaucrats and other governing officials in the Prime Minister's cabinet are voted in all at once in a single vote, what we would call the Administration (as in, the Trump administration, the Obama administration, the Bush administration, etc.) can also be referred to as the government. I think in some countries parliament can also undergo radical changes in a short period of time as well. Basically, a voting year in Britain (or any year in a country where the government can be removed by the electorate through a Vote of No Confidence) can bring about quite radical policy changes relative to our system because so many people are being cycled out at once. Our voting cycle here in the States is staggered specifically to ensure there is a greater sense of continuity between presidential administrations, and Congress always retains half of the Senate and House in a voting year, so it makes little sense in our system to talk about the government this way. Moreover, most of the nation's bureaucracies and agencies like the Justice Department, Federal Trade Commission, EPA, NASA, and so on are part of the Executive branch of government, but most of their employees and bureaucrats remain in office between presidents. Again, this keeps a sense of continuity between administrations, although the President has power to hire and fire many of those officials (how we got an industry stooge like Chairman Pai in charge of the FCC, for instance). The government evolves over time, but for better or worse it can never change as quickly as most European governments can no matter if the people want them gone or not.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2267
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-12-05 05:44pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-05 03:22pm
Put simply, the government is simply the party (plus any coalitions) which has enough seats in the legislature to form a majority. Once they have this majority, they "form government," and can fill positions like PM, Cabinet, etc.

It's a pretty good system overall.
And it was May's ill-advised election last year that put the DUP in a kingmaker position since the Tories lost enough seats they couldn't form a majority without them. And since the DUP has the greatest stake in the NI border, May cannot simply ignore them like she could have done before since she needs them more than they need her.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5596
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by madd0ct0r » 2018-12-06 07:42am

Formless wrote:
2018-12-05 03:29pm
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-12-05 02:48pm
But how does that even work? Isn't Parliament the government? (American here)
My understanding (also as an American) is that the word "government" can mean two things under a parliamentary system. On the one hand, it can mean the same thing as here, the system of power that governs the nation. But because all the ministers, bureaucrats and other governing officials in the Prime Minister's cabinet are voted in all at once in a single vote, what we would call the Administration (as in, the Trump administration, the Obama administration, the Bush administration, etc.) can also be referred to as the government. I think in some countries parliament can also undergo radical changes in a short period of time as well. Basically, a voting year in Britain (or any year in a country where the government can be removed by the electorate through a Vote of No Confidence) can bring about quite radical policy changes relative to our system because so many people are being cycled out at once. Our voting cycle here in the States is staggered specifically to ensure there is a greater sense of continuity between presidential administrations, and Congress always retains half of the Senate and House in a voting year, so it makes little sense in our system to talk about the government this way. Moreover, most of the nation's bureaucracies and agencies like the Justice Department, Federal Trade Commission, EPA, NASA, and so on are part of the Executive branch of government, but most of their employees and bureaucrats remain in office between presidents. Again, this keeps a sense of continuity between administrations, although the President has power to hire and fire many of those officials (how we got an industry stooge like Chairman Pai in charge of the FCC, for instance). The government evolves over time, but for better or worse it can never change as quickly as most European governments can no matter if the people want them gone or not.
The govement also include the civil service members who provided the technocratic competentcy and the continuation between the different ministers in the same role. The humpheries.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee

User avatar
Coop D'etat
Padawan Learner
Posts: 464
Joined: 2007-02-23 01:38pm
Location: UBC Unincorporated land

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Coop D'etat » 2018-12-06 10:28am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-05 03:22pm
Put simply, the government is simply the party (plus any coalitions) which has enough seats in the legislature to form a majority. Once they have this majority, they "form government," and can fill positions like PM, Cabinet, etc.

It's a pretty good system overall.
Its a subtle distinction, but technically the Government is only the party MPs who are serving as ministers. The backbenchers are supposed to be distinct from the government and suppposedly its part of their role to conduct oversight of he Government.

This distinction is frequently lost by high party loyalty backbenchers acting like they are a part of the government, but its supposed to exist in the Westminister system.

The functional equivalent American term to a Westminister government is a President's administration, rather than the US government as a whole.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14562
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-06 03:00pm

Ah, in Australia it's treated slightly differently to the UK it seems.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12475
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-12-06 03:47pm

OK, so what does "contempt of Parliament" mean in this context? I'm aware that people can be held in contempt of Congress here in the States, but that's like when a Congressional committee wants someone to answer questions and they refuse. What does it mean when a large chunk of Parliament, is held in contempt of... itself? What are the consequences, basically?
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Bedlam
Jedi Master
Posts: 1283
Joined: 2006-09-23 11:12am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: UK government in historic first

Post by Bedlam » 2018-12-06 06:42pm

Basically Contempt of Parliament means that you have been taking actions to try and stop Parliament from carrying out its function. It included refusing to appear before a committee or refusing to testify, lying to or trying to bribe a MP or failing to provide requested information.

In this case by not providing details of the legal advice provided in relation to the Britexit agreement it was found that the government (more or less the PM and cabinet) was preventing the rest of the MPs from having the information they would need to debate and vote on the agreement. I don't know what legal steps can be taken against the somewhat nebulous 'government' but individual MPs can be suspended or expelled (or locked up in Westminster Clock Tower, but that's rather out dated), non MP's can be imprisoned for it. In this case the practical side has been that the requested information was quickly provided to parliament.

Post Reply