George HW Bush has died

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-03 05:31pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 05:26pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:16pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
You cannot be serious.
I don't know. Colin Powell's intentions seemed honorable, if misguided. The other actors...knew they were in it for themselves, but deluded even themselves into believing their intentions were good, even if only good enough to pave the road to hell.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 05:34pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-12-03 05:31pm
I don't know. Colin Powell's intentions seemed honorable, if misguided. The other actors...knew they were in it for themselves, but deluded even themselves into believing their intentions were good, even if only good enough to pave the road to hell.
What was honourable about Powell? Honourably lying to the UN?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
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Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 05:34pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 05:26pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:16pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
You cannot be serious.
Because I don't think that every person in the Bush administration was a puppy-kicking cartoon villain, but that some of them might have had complex motives or been genuinely misguided?

Hell, I don't even think every person in the Trump or Putin regime is pure puppy-kicking Evil. It must be comforting living in such a simple world, aerius.

Edit: For that matter, are you capable of understanding, or willing to acknowledge, the distinction between "I'm defending these peoples' actions" and "I recognize that people are capable of convincing themselves that bad shit is actually good?"
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-03 05:41pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:34pm
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-12-03 05:31pm
I don't know. Colin Powell's intentions seemed honorable, if misguided. The other actors...knew they were in it for themselves, but deluded even themselves into believing their intentions were good, even if only good enough to pave the road to hell.
What was honourable about Powell? Honourably lying to the UN?
You have a point.

I might add lying to the UN, using the UN for its own ends, and bitching about the UN, usually all in the same news cycle, are all as American as Joltin' Joe beating his wife.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 05:47pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:34pm
aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 05:26pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:16pm


A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
You cannot be serious.
Because I don't think that every person in the Bush administration was a puppy-kicking cartoon villain, but that some of them might have had complex motives or been genuinely misguided?
Do you have a specific person in mind?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-03 05:54pm

Cheney. He was a kicking widows and orphans cartoon villain.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Batman » 2018-12-03 06:00pm

I think TRR meant people who weren't like that.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by aerius » 2018-12-03 06:00pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:34pm
Because I don't think that every person in the Bush administration was a puppy-kicking cartoon villain, but that some of them might have had complex motives or been genuinely misguided?

Hell, I don't even think every person in the Trump or Putin regime is pure puppy-kicking Evil. It must be comforting living in such a simple world, aerius.

Edit: For that matter, are you capable of understanding, or willing to acknowledge, the distinction between "I'm defending these peoples' actions" and "I recognize that people are capable of convincing themselves that bad shit is actually good?"
If that's the standard you want to go by I might as well claim that Trump is just misunderstood, and no one can comprehend his complex motives.
He's not evil, you just don't understand what he's trying to do!
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 06:07pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 06:00pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:34pm
Because I don't think that every person in the Bush administration was a puppy-kicking cartoon villain, but that some of them might have had complex motives or been genuinely misguided?

Hell, I don't even think every person in the Trump or Putin regime is pure puppy-kicking Evil. It must be comforting living in such a simple world, aerius.

Edit: For that matter, are you capable of understanding, or willing to acknowledge, the distinction between "I'm defending these peoples' actions" and "I recognize that people are capable of convincing themselves that bad shit is actually good?"
If that's the standard you want to go by I might as well claim that Trump is just misunderstood, and no one can comprehend his complex motives.
He's not evil, you just don't understand what he's trying to do!
Its harder for me to buy that in Trump's case because he's pretty blatant about putting self-interest over principle, and lying and flip-flopping on everything except being a dick.

And seriously, did you really just say that if we allow for any nuance or complexity in analyzing peoples' reasons for doing bad things, then we can never condemn anyone under any circumstances? Holy slippery slope fallacy, Batman.

But then, if your starting premise is "Bush Sr. and Trump are the same", then I suppose it logically follows that if you defend one, you must defend the other. I mean, that's a pretty concise summary of how Whataboutism works to normalize Trumpism.

Its just that your underlying premise is extremely stupid.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Ralin » 2018-12-03 06:27pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
Well yeah. Could have killed way more Iraqis if there weren't. Probably would have been cheaper and more efficient too.

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 08:24pm

Just because it could have been worse doesn't mean that there were good intentions.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by aerius » 2018-12-03 08:36pm

Ralin wrote:
2018-12-03 06:27pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
Well yeah. Could have killed way more Iraqis if there weren't. Probably would have been cheaper and more efficient too.
I guess the Colonial powers had good intentions for their slave colonies as well.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Tribble » 2018-12-03 09:22pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 08:36pm
Ralin wrote:
2018-12-03 06:27pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
Well yeah. Could have killed way more Iraqis if there weren't. Probably would have been cheaper and more efficient too.
I guess the Colonial powers had good intentions for their slave colonies as well.
It's all in the eye of the beholder. For the oil tycoons no doubt Bush and Cheney were bloody saints.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by aerius » 2018-12-04 12:35am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 06:07pm
aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 06:00pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:34pm
Because I don't think that every person in the Bush administration was a puppy-kicking cartoon villain, but that some of them might have had complex motives or been genuinely misguided?

Hell, I don't even think every person in the Trump or Putin regime is pure puppy-kicking Evil. It must be comforting living in such a simple world, aerius.

Edit: For that matter, are you capable of understanding, or willing to acknowledge, the distinction between "I'm defending these peoples' actions" and "I recognize that people are capable of convincing themselves that bad shit is actually good?"
If that's the standard you want to go by I might as well claim that Trump is just misunderstood, and no one can comprehend his complex motives.
He's not evil, you just don't understand what he's trying to do!
Its harder for me to buy that in Trump's case because he's pretty blatant about putting self-interest over principle, and lying and flip-flopping on everything except being a dick.

And seriously, did you really just say that if we allow for any nuance or complexity in analyzing peoples' reasons for doing bad things, then we can never condemn anyone under any circumstances? Holy slippery slope fallacy, Batman.

But then, if your starting premise is "Bush Sr. and Trump are the same", then I suppose it logically follows that if you defend one, you must defend the other. I mean, that's a pretty concise summary of how Whataboutism works to normalize Trumpism.

Its just that your underlying premise is extremely stupid.
They're the same. Bush just hid it better.

https://theintercept.com/2018/12/01/the ... f-justice/
The Ignored Legacy of George H.W. Bush: War Crimes, Racism, and Obstruction of Justice

The tributes to former President George H.W. Bush, who died on Friday aged 94, have been pouring in from all sides of the political spectrum. He was a man “of the highest character,” said his eldest son and fellow former president, George W. Bush. “He loved America and served with character, class, and integrity,” tweeted former U.S. Attorney and #Resistance icon Preet Bharara. According to another former president, Barack Obama, Bush’s life was “a testament to the notion that public service is a noble, joyous calling. And he did tremendous good along the journey.” Apple boss Tim Cook said: “We have lost a great American.”

In the age of Donald Trump, it isn’t difficult for hagiographers of the late Bush Sr. to paint a picture of him as a great patriot and pragmatist; a president who governed with “class” and “integrity.” It is true that the former president refused to vote for Trump in 2016, calling him a “blowhard,” and that he eschewed the white nationalist, “alt-right,” conspiratorial politics that has come to define the modern Republican Party. He helped end the Cold War without, as Obama said, “firing a shot.” He spent his life serving his country — from the military to Congress to the United Nations to the CIA to the White House. And, by all accounts, he was also a beloved grandfather and great-grandfather to his 17 grandkids and eight great-grandkids.

Nevertheless, he was a public, not a private, figure — one of only 44 men to have ever served as president of the United States. We cannot, therefore, allow his actual record in office to be beautified in such a brazen way. “When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms,” as my colleague Glenn Greenwald has argued, because it leads to “false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts.” The inconvenient truth is that the presidency of George Herbert Walker Bush had far more in common with the recognizably belligerent, corrupt, and right-wing Republican figures who came after him — his son George W. and the current orange-faced incumbent — than much of the political and media classes might have you believe.

Consider:

He ran a racist election campaign. The name of Willie Horton should forever be associated with Bush’s 1988 presidential bid. Horton, who was serving a life sentence for murder in Massachusetts — where Bush’s Democratic opponent, Michael Dukakis, was governor — had fled a weekend furlough program and raped a Maryland woman. A notorious television ad called “Weekend Passes,” released by a political action committee with ties to the Bush campaign, made clear to viewers that Horton was black and his victim was white.

As Bush campaign director Lee Atwater bragged, “By the time we’re finished, they’re going to wonder whether Willie Horton is Dukakis’s running mate.” Bush himself was quick to dismiss accusations of racism as “absolutely ridiculous,” yet it was clear at the time — even to right-wing Republican operatives such as Roger Stone, now a close ally of Trump — that the ad had crossed a line. “You and George Bush will wear that to your grave,” Stone complained to Atwater. “It’s a racist ad. … You’re going to regret it.”

Stone was right about Atwater, who on his deathbed apologized for using Horton against Dukakis. But Bush never did.

He made a dishonest case for war. Thirteen years before George W. Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction to justify his invasion and occupation of Iraq, his father made his own set of false claims to justify the aerial bombardment of that same country. The first Gulf War, as an investigation by journalist Joshua Holland concluded, “was sold on a mountain of war propaganda.”

For a start, Bush told the American public that Iraq had invaded Kuwait “without provocation or warning.” What he omitted to mention was that the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, had given an effective green light to Saddam Hussein, telling him in July 1990, a week before his invasion, “[W]e have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait.”

Then there is the fabrication of intelligence. Bush deployed U.S. troops to the Gulf in August 1990 and claimed that he was doing so in order “to assist the Saudi Arabian Government in the defense of its homeland.” As Scott Peterson wrote in the Christian Science Monitor in 2002, “Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated … that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key U.S. oil supplier.”

Yet when reporter Jean Heller of the St. Petersburg Times acquired her own commercial satellite images of the Saudi border, she found no signs of Iraqi forces; only an empty desert. “It was a pretty serious fib,” Heller told Peterson, adding: “That [Iraqi buildup] was the whole justification for Bush sending troops in there, and it just didn’t exist.”

He committed war crimes. Under Bush Sr., the U.S. dropped a whopping 88,500 tons of bombs on Iraq and Iraqi-occupied Kuwait, many of which resulted in horrific civilian casualties. In February 1991, for example, a U.S. airstrike on an air-raid shelter in the Amiriyah neighborhood of Baghdad killed at least 408 Iraqi civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, the Pentagon knew the Amiriyah facility had been used as a civil defense shelter during the Iran-Iraq war and yet had attacked without warning. It was, concluded HRW, “a serious violation of the laws of war.”

U.S. bombs also destroyed essential Iraqi civilian infrastructure — from electricity-generating and water-treatment facilities to food-processing plants and flour mills. This was no accident. As Barton Gellman of the Washington Post reported in June 1991: “Some targets, especially late in the war, were bombed primarily to create postwar leverage over Iraq, not to influence the course of the conflict itself. Planners now say their intent was to destroy or damage valuable facilities that Baghdad could not repair without foreign assistance. … Because of these goals, damage to civilian structures and interests, invariably described by briefers during the war as ‘collateral’ and unintended, was sometimes neither.”

Got that? The Bush administration deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure for “leverage” over Saddam Hussein. How is this not terrorism? As a Harvard public health team concluded in June 1991, less than four months after the end of the war, the destruction of Iraqi infrastructure had resulted in acute malnutrition and “epidemic” levels of cholera and typhoid.

By January 1992, Beth Osborne Daponte, a demographer with the U.S. Census Bureau, was estimating that Bush’s Gulf War had caused the deaths of 158,000 Iraqis, including 13,000 immediate civilian deaths and 70,000 deaths from the damage done to electricity and sewage treatment plants. Daponte’s numbers contradicted the Bush administration’s, and she was threatened by her superiors with dismissal for releasing “false information.” (Sound familiar?)

He refused to cooperate with a special counsel. The Iran-Contra affair, in which the United States traded missiles for Americans hostages in Iran, and used the proceeds of those arms sales to fund Contra rebels in Nicaragua, did much to undermine the presidency of Ronald Reagan. Yet his vice president’s involvement in that controversial affair has garnered far less attention. “The criminal investigation of Bush was regrettably incomplete,” wrote Special Counsel Lawrence Walsh, a former deputy attorney general in the Eisenhower administration, in his final report on the Iran-Contra affair in August 1993.

Why? Because Bush, who was “fully aware of the Iran arms sale,” according to the special counsel, failed to hand over a diary “containing contemporaneous notes relevant to Iran/contra” and refused to be interviewed in the later stages of the investigation. In the final days of his presidency, Bush even issued pardons to six defendants in the Iran-Contra affair, including former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger — on the eve of Weinberger’s trial for perjury and obstruction of justice. “The Weinberger pardon,” Walsh pointedly noted, “marked the first time a president ever pardoned someone in whose trial he might have been called as a witness, because the president was knowledgeable of factual events underlying the case.” An angry Walsh accused Bush of “misconduct” and helping to complete “the Iran-contra cover-up.”

Sounds like a Trumpian case of obstruction of justice, doesn’t it?

He escalated the racist war on drugs. In September 1989, in a televised address to the nation from the Oval Office, Bush held up a bag of crack cocaine, which he said had been “seized a few days ago in a park across the street from the White House . … It could easily have been heroin or PCP.”

Yet a Washington Post investigation later that month revealed that federal agents had “lured” the drug dealer to Lafayette Park so that they could make an “undercover crack buy in a park better known for its location across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House than for illegal drug activity” (the dealer didn’t know where the White House was and even asked the agents for directions). Bush cynically used this prop — the bag of crack — to call for a $1.5 billion increase in spending on the drug war, declaiming: “We need more prisons, more jails, more courts, more prosecutors.”

The result? “Millions of Americans were incarcerated, hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, and hundreds of thousands of human beings allowed to die of AIDS — all in the name of a ‘war on drugs’ that did nothing to reduce drug abuse,” pointed out Ethan Nadelmann, founder of the Drug Policy Alliance, in 2014. Bush, he argued, “put ideology and politics above science and health.” Today, even leading Republicans, such as Chris Christie and Rand Paul, agree that the war on drugs, ramped up by Bush during his four years in the White House, has been a dismal and racist failure.

He groped women. Since the start of the #MeToo movement, in late 2017, at least eight different women have come forward with claims that the former president groped them, in most cases while they were posing for photos with him. One of them, Roslyn Corrigan, told Time magazine that Bush had touched her inappropriately in 2003, when she was just 16. “I was a child,” she said. The former president was 79. Bush’s spokesperson offered this defense of his boss in October 2017: “At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures.” Yet, as Time noted, “Bush was standing upright in 2003 when he met Corrigan.”

Facts matter. The 41st president of the United States was not the last Republican moderate or a throwback to an imagined age of conservative decency and civility; he engaged in race baiting, obstruction of justice, and war crimes. He had much more in common with the two Republican presidents who came after him than his current crop of fans would like us to believe.
Once again, fuck him. Elfdart and myself were around in his time to see all this shit go down while you were sucking your thumb in junior school. You don't even know 10% of the shit that Bush Sr pulled off in his political career and you want to claim that he's not that bad. Fucking educate yourself. He's a racist, war mongering, sociopathic shitbag. Like father, like son, like Trump.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-04 01:31am

Note the above covers only the four years he was President in name and in fact,and not the other eight where he was just President in fact(with the exception of Iran-Contra).

The acts he carried out in those twelve years was the seed leading to the bitter harvest that was Trump, a man who was a creature of the 1980s and shaped by the attitudes fostered by Bush and his contemporaries and cynically accepted by too many Americans.

Attitudes such as hostility toward the press, targeted purges of political enemies(remember ABSCAM?), misogyny(the current backlash against women's rights began in the 80s), racism, union-busting, corporatism, roling back of workers' rights, unbridled greed("greed is good!" so says Wall Street), and so on.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
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---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-04 03:05pm

The danger of saying "Bush and Trump are exactly the same" by cherry-picking examples is that you effectively normalize all the unprecedented additional steps towards fascism that Trump has taken. Behind a pretence of fairness and even-handedness, you are legitimizing fascism. You are making Trump normal, and therefore making him seem like not such a big deal, and opposing him not as urgent.

Again, none of this is a defence of George Bush (either of them). You can and should condemn their crimes without falling back on lazy "they're all the same" bullshit.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Fuck Civility.

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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Zaune » 2018-12-04 03:24pm

It occurs to me that we might want to borrow a metaphor from Charlie Stross*: Trump and his fellow-travellers are what [generic post-Nixon Republican] would act like after a few too many beers, enough to make them say what they actually think without first filtering it through a fine mesh of tact, good manners or at least self-preservation.

* Who originally used it in reference to the difference between the Conservative Party and UKIP, but I think it works depressingly well on a global level.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Tribble » 2018-12-04 03:43pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-12-04 03:24pm
It occurs to me that we might want to borrow a metaphor from Charlie Stross*: Trump and his fellow-travellers are what [generic post-Nixon Republican] would act like after a few too many beers, enough to make them say what they actually think without first filtering it through a fine mesh of tact, good manners or at least self-preservation.

* Who originally used it in reference to the difference between the Conservative Party and UKIP, but I think it works depressingly well on a global level.
Well, Trump became president after things like pussygate, threatening to jail his opponents and stating he could shoot someone in the head in broad daylight in front of the crowd and still get elected etc... seems like a good chunk of the electorate love his brand of bullshit, so theres no reason for him to hold back.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-12-05 06:25pm

It was a very nice funeral.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Zaune » 2018-12-05 07:30pm

Huh. Apparently Trump can behave with dignity, good manners and class when he can be bothered to make the effort.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
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Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-05 09:36pm

He's probably pretty stoked to know that barring absurd levels of atrocity, he'll probably get a similar send off.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-06 01:57am

Except with gold-plated everything. Including the flag.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-07 01:59am

Zaune wrote:
2018-12-04 03:24pm
It occurs to me that we might want to borrow a metaphor from Charlie Stross*: Trump and his fellow-travellers are what [generic post-Nixon Republican] would act like after a few too many beers, enough to make them say what they actually think without first filtering it through a fine mesh of tact, good manners or at least self-preservation.

* Who originally used it in reference to the difference between the Conservative Party and UKIP, but I think it works depressingly well on a global level.
Yes and no. There are Republicans who will accept a level of bigotry and unrestrained capitalism, but baulk at outright treasonous behaviour, or overt attacks on basic American institutions. I expect GHWB was one of those, as was McCain. Doesn't make them good men- just sincere patriots, who are willing to countenance horrible things in the name of their country.

But for a lot of Republicans... yes, Trump is basically the party with the brakes removed, the part of their brain that tells them "maybe don't say this stuff in front of the cameras" turned off.
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-12-06 01:57am
Except with gold-plated everything. Including the flag.
And a fair-sized army of protesters as close as the Secret Service permits them to be, no doubt.

Hell, I'd be willing to fly down to DC to protest the funeral when that fucker kicks the bucket. Usually I'm willing to show some respect to the deceased even if I despised them in life, but I'll be damned if Donald "Treason" Trump gets a dignified send-off at taxpayer expense.
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-07 02:21am

The Romulan Republic wrote:And a fair-sized army of protesters as close as the Secret Service permits them to be, no doubt.
You mean "largest crowd for any Presidential funeral in history," right?
Hell, I'd be willing to fly down to DC to protest the funeral when that fucker kicks the bucket. Usually I'm willing to show some respect to the deceased even if I despised them in life, but I'll be damned if Donald "Treason" Trump gets a dignified send-off at taxpayer expense.
But, he will. As Nixon's death taught me, the evil men do is often buried with them, and the good is manufactured from whole cloth. Or, in Trump's case, cloth of gold.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-07 02:27am

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-12-07 02:21am
The Romulan Republic wrote:And a fair-sized army of protesters as close as the Secret Service permits them to be, no doubt.
You mean "largest crowd for any Presidential funeral in history," right?
Hell, I'd be willing to fly down to DC to protest the funeral when that fucker kicks the bucket. Usually I'm willing to show some respect to the deceased even if I despised them in life, but I'll be damned if Donald "Treason" Trump gets a dignified send-off at taxpayer expense.
But, he will. As Nixon's death taught me, the evil men do is often buried with them, and the good is manufactured from whole cloth. Or, in Trump's case, cloth of gold.
Well, the US does have a history of honouring traitors (see: every Confederate statue ever). But I think that if we should make one exception, as a nation, to "Don't speak ill of the dead", it should be Donald Trump, whenever his time comes. I wouldn't say that if it was just his private funeral- I would let his family mourn him in peace, if they cared to do so. But from a moral perspective, a man who betrayed his country does not have the right to be buried with honours at his country's expense. And pragmatically, if a country honours traitors, it only encourages further treason.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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