George HW Bush has died

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
ANGELUS
Padawan Learner
Posts: 411
Joined: 2003-03-04 02:11pm
Location: Valhöll

George HW Bush has died

Post by ANGELUS » 2018-12-01 12:13am

Source: https://m.huffingtonpost.com.mx/entry/g ... eddf568e59
30/11/2018 10:55
Former President George H.W. Bush Dead At Age 94
Bush had a long record of public service, from the Navy to Congress to the United Nations to the CIA to the Oval Office.
By Paige Lavender
Don Frederick, HuffPost US
Former President George Herbert Walker Bush, who navigated U.S. foreign policy as the Soviet Union collapsed, led an international coalition that quickly ousted the Iraqi military from Kuwait, but then lost his re-election bid amid a struggling economy, died Friday at the age of 94.

Jim McGrath, Bush’s spokesman, announced his death late Friday.
~ Some men just want to watch the world burn ~

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2939
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Jub » 2018-12-01 12:20am

I didn't like his politics but his idea of right wing would be pretty far left these days.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-01 01:36am

He's part of the same old guard Republicans as John McCain- the last remnants of the days when the party was unpleasant, corrupt, nationalistic, militaristic... but not actually insane.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3445
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-01 02:23am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-01 01:36am
He's part of the same old guard Republicans as John McCain- the last remnants of the days when the party was unpleasant, corrupt, nationalistic, militaristic... but not actually insane.
Trump is going to turn this into a circus centered on him. As Bush's policies as the shadow hand of the Reagan Administration helped begat Trump...It's a pretty shitty irony.

I plan on eating broccoli to mark his passing. :D
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-01 04:28pm

The Intercept wrote:The Ignored Legacy of George H.W. Bush: War Crimes, Racism, and Obstruction of Justice
Mehdi Hasan
December 2 2018, 3:38 a.m.

The tributes to former President George H.W. Bush, who died on Friday aged 94, have been pouring in from all sides of the political spectrum. He was a man “of the highest character,” said his eldest son and fellow former president, George W. Bush. “He loved America and served with character, class, and integrity,” tweeted former U.S. Attorney and #resistance icon Preet Bharara. According to another former president, Barack Obama, Bush’s life was “a testament to the notion that public service is a noble, joyous calling. And he did tremendous good along the journey.” Apple boss Tim Cook said: “We have lost a great American.”

In an age of Donald Trump, it isn’t difficult for his hagiographers to paint a picture of the late Bush Sr. as a great patriot and pragmatist; a president who governed with “class” and “integrity.” It is true that the former president refused to vote for Trump in 2016, calling him a “blowhard,” and that he eschewed the white-nationalist, alt-right, conspiratorial politics that has come to define the modern Republican Party. He helped end the Cold War without, as Obama said, “firing a shot.” He spent his life serving his country — from the military to Congress to the United Nations to the CIA to the White House. And, by all accounts, he was also a beloved grandfather and great-grandfather to his 17 grandkids and 8 great-grandkids.

Nevertheless, he was a public not a private figure; one of only 44 men to have ever served as president of the United States. We cannot, therefore, allow his actual record in office to be beautified in such a brazen way. “When a political leader dies, it is irresponsible in the extreme to demand that only praise be permitted but not criticisms,” as my colleague Glenn Greenwald has argued, because it leads to “false history and a propagandistic whitewashing of bad acts.” The inconvenient truth is that the presidency of George Herbert Walker Bush had far more in common with the recognizably belligerent, corrupt and right-wing Republican figures who came after him — his son George W. and the current orange-faced incumbent — than much of the political and media classes might have you believe.

Consider:

He ran a racist election campaign. The name of Willie Horton should forever be associated with Bush’s 1988 presidential bid. Horton, who was serving a life sentence for murder in Massachusetts — where Bush’s Democratic opponent, Michael Dukakis, was governor — had fled a weekend furlough program and raped a Maryland woman. A notorious television ad called “Weekend Passes,“released by a political action committee with ties to the Bush campaign, made clear to viewers that Horton was black and his victim was white.

As Bush campaign director Lee Atwater bragged, “By the time we’re finished, they’re going to wonder whether Willie Horton is Dukakis’ running mate.” Bush himself was quick to dismiss accusations of racism as “absolutely ridiculous” yet it was clear at the time, even to right-wing Republicans operatives such as Roger Stone, now a close ally of Trump, that the ad had crossed a line. “You and George Bush will wear that to your grave,” Stone complained to Atwater. “It’s a racist ad… You’re going to regret it.”

Stone was right about Atwater, who on his deathbed apologized for using Horton against Dukakis. But Bush never did.

He made a dishonest case for war. Thirteen years before George W. Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction to justify his invasion and occupation of Iraq, his father made his own set of false claims to justify the aerial bombardment of that same country. The first Gulf War, as an investigation by journalist Joshua Keating concluded, “was sold on a mountain of war propaganda.”

For a start, Bush told the American public that Iraq had invaded Kuwait “without provocation or warning.” What he omitted to mention was that the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, had given an effective green light to Saddam Hussein, telling him in July 1990, a week before his invasion, “[W]e have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait.”

Then there is the fabrication of intelligence. Bush deployed U.S. troops to the Gulf in August 1990 and claimed he was doing so in order “to assist the Saudi Arabian Government in the defense of its homeland.” As Scott Peterson wrote in the Christian Science Monitor in 2002, “Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated… that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key US oil supplier.”

Yet when reporter Jean Heller of the St. Petersburg Times acquired her own commercial satellite images of the Saudi border, she found no signs of Iraqi forces; only an empty desert. “It was a pretty serious fib,” Heller told Peterson, adding: “That [Iraqi buildup] was the whole justification for Bush sending troops in there, and it just didn’t exist.”

He committed war crimes. Under Bush Sr., the U.S. dropped a whopping 88,500 tons of bombs on Iraq and Iraqi-occupied Kuwait, many of which resulted in horrific civilian casualties. In February 1991, for example, a U.S. airstrike on an air-raid shelter in the Amiriyah neighborhood of Baghdad killed at least 408 Iraqi civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, the Pentagon knew the Amiriyah facility had been used as a civil-defense shelter during the Iran-Iraq war and yet had attacked without warning. It was, concluded HRW, “a serious violation of the laws of war.”

U.S. bombs also destroyed essential Iraqi civilian infrastructure — from electricity-generating and water-treatment facilities to food-processing plants and flour mills. This was no accident. As Barton Gellman of the Washington Post reported in June 1991: “Some targets, especially late in the war, were bombed primarily to create postwar leverage over Iraq, not to influence the course of the conflict itself. Planners now say their intent was to destroy or damage valuable facilities that Baghdad could not repair without foreign assistance…Because of these goals, damage to civilian structures and interests, invariably described by briefers during the war as ‘collateral’ and unintended, was sometimes neither.”

Got that? The Bush administration deliberately targeted civilian infrastructure for “leverage” over Saddam Hussein. How is this not terrorism? As a Harvard public health team concluded in June 1991, less than four months after the end of the war, the destruction of Iraqi infrastructure had resulted in acute malnutrition and “epidemic” levels of cholera and typhoid.

By January 1992, Beth Osborne Daponte, a demographer with the U.S. Census Bureau, was estimating that Bush’s Gulf War had caused the deaths of 158,000 Iraqis, including 13,000 immediate civilian deaths and 70,000 deaths from the damage done to electricity and sewage treatment plants. Daponte’s numbers contradicted the Bush administration’s and she was threatened by her superiors with dismissal for releasing “false information.” (Sound familiar?)

He refused to cooperate with a special counsel. The Iran-Contra affair, in which the United States traded missiles for Americans hostages in Iran, and used the proceeds of those arms sales to fund Contra rebels in Nicaragua, did much to undermine the presidency of Ronald Reagan. Yet his vice president’s involvement in that controversial affair has garnered far less attention. “The criminal investigation of Bush was regrettably incomplete,” wrote Special Counsel Lawrence Walsh, a former deputy attorney general in the Eisenhower administration, in his final report on the Iran-Contra affair in August 1993.

Why? Because Bush, who was “fully aware of the Iran arms sale,” according to the special counsel, failed to hand over a diary “containing contemporaneous notes relevant to Iran/contra” and refused to be interviewed in the later stages of the investigation. In the final days of his presidency, Bush even issued pardons to six defendants in the Iran-Contra affair, including former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger — on the eve of Weinberger’s trial for perjury and obstruction of justice. “The Weinberger pardon,” Walsh pointedly noted, “marked the first time a president ever pardoned someone in whose trial he might have been called as a witness, because the president was knowledgeable of factual events underlying the case.” An angry Walsh accused Bush of “misconduct” and helping to complete “the Iran-contra cover-up”.

Sounds like a Trumpian case of obstruction of justice, doesn’t it?

He escalated the racist war on drugs. In September 1989, in a televised address to the nation from the Oval Office, Bush held up a bag of crack cocaine which he said had been “seized a few days ago in a park across the street from the White House . . . . It could easily have been heroin or PCP.”

Yet a Washington Post investigation later that month revealed that federal agents had “lured” the drug dealer to Lafayette Park so they could make an “undercover crack buy in a park better known for its location across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House than for illegal drug activity” (the dealer didn’t know where the White House was and even asked the agents for directions). Bush cynically used this prop — the bag of crack — to call for a $1.5 billion increase in spending on the drug war, declaiming: “We need more prisons, more jails, more courts, more prosecutors.”

The result? “Millions of Americans were incarcerated, hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, and hundreds of thousands of human beings allowed to die of AIDS – all in the name of a ‘war on drugs’ that did nothing to reduce drug abuse,” pointed out Ethan Nadelmann, founder of the Drug Policy Alliance, in 2014. Bush, he argued, “put ideology and politics above science and health.” Today, even leading Republicans, such as Chris Christie and Rand Paul, agree that the war on drugs, ramped up by Bush during his four years in the White House, has been a dismal and racist failure.

He groped women. Since the start of the #MeToo movement, in late 2017, at least 8 different women have come forward with claims that the former president groped them; in most cases, while they were posing for photos with him. One of them, Roslyn Corrigan, told Time magazine that Bush touched her inappropriately in 2003, when she was just 16. “I was a child,” she said. The former president was 79. Bush’s spokesman offered this defense of his boss in October 2017: “At age 93, President Bush has been confined to a wheelchair for roughly five years, so his arm falls on the lower waist of people with whom he takes pictures.” Yet, as Time noted, “Bush was standing upright in 2003 when he met Corrigan.”

Facts matter. The 41st president of the United States was not the last Republican moderate or a throwback to an imagined age of conservative decency and civility; he engaged in race baiting, obstruction of justice, and war crimes. He had much more in common with the two Republican presidents who came after him than his current crop of fans would like us to believe.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2427
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Tribble » 2018-12-01 05:10pm

Sad that despite all of the above he's still a moderate compared to the present party.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-01 05:12pm

Indeed, though "at least he's not a fascist" is definitely damming with faint praise.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10148
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm
Location: What's the bonus for shooting bad guys from behind?

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Elfdart » 2018-12-02 07:02am

Bush Sr was every bit as much of a fascist as his retarded son, as well as the current occupant of the White House. In fact, he wrote a letter to Cheeto Mussolini, praising him for taking out a full-page ad calling for the lynching of five black teenagers for a rape they didn't commit. As CIA director, he helped cover up the CIA's role in training the Cuban hit men responsible for the car bombing in Washington D.C. that killed Orlando Letelier and Ronni Moffitt at the behest of Augusto Pinochet. He supported Nazi death squads in El Salvador and Guatemala, too. Like his son, he also lied the country into a war against Iraq by claiming the Iraqi Army was (a) massed on the border of Saudi Arabia preparing to invade and (b) pulling babies off incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals.

But the real giveaway about what a fascist George H.W. Bush was had to be when the Navy shot down an Iranian airliner, slaughtering hundreds of civilians -including 66 children. He said he would never apologize for American atrocities "no matter what the facts are".

May he burn in hell.
The story is completely and unashamedly silly, the plot non-existent, the acting atrocious, in fact, the whole movie just a gratuitous excuse to show off Eva Green in a thinly-veiled soft porn film.

Highly recommended.


Review of Bernardo Bertolucci's The Dreamers by singer/songwriter/composer/musician John Wetton (1949-2017)

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-02 11:13pm

Elfdart wrote:
2018-12-02 07:02am
Bush Sr was every bit as much of a fascist as his retarded son, as well as the current occupant of the White House. In fact, he wrote a letter to Cheeto Mussolini, praising him for taking out a full-page ad calling for the lynching of five black teenagers for a rape they didn't commit. As CIA director, he helped cover up the CIA's role in training the Cuban hit men responsible for the car bombing in Washington D.C. that killed Orlando Letelier and Ronni Moffitt at the behest of Augusto Pinochet. He supported Nazi death squads in El Salvador and Guatemala, too. Like his son, he also lied the country into a war against Iraq by claiming the Iraqi Army was (a) massed on the border of Saudi Arabia preparing to invade and (b) pulling babies off incubators in Kuwaiti hospitals.

But the real giveaway about what a fascist George H.W. Bush was had to be when the Navy shot down an Iranian airliner, slaughtering hundreds of civilians -including 66 children. He said he would never apologize for American atrocities "no matter what the facts are".

May he burn in hell.
Criticize him all you want. Condemn him as a murderer- I don't doubt that he deserves it. But if you have any intellectual or moral integrity or actually care about calling out his crimes, do it with something more precise and nuanced than yet another lazy "They're all just as bad" meme. Because no, George HW Bush is not the same as Trump. Whatever George Bush Sr. did, he never tried to rile up mob violence and terrorism against his political opponents. He never tried to dismantle America's alliance with fucking Canada. And he never tried to undermine the very existence of the free press or an independent judiciary. In short, he did not take systematic steps to make himself a dictator, and America a dictatorship. Trump has.

Pretending that there is no difference between the two is either stupidity, or willful abetting Trumpism- because that is how Trump became President, at least in part. Because smug "anti-establishment" progressives and liberals mindlessly repeated "They're all the same" as though one-dimensional thinking were some kind of wisdom. Thus normalizing Trump, while patting themselves on the back for how much smarter they were than all the sheeple who actually differentiated between different politicians, instead of recognizing "they're all the same" for the lazy, intellectually vacuous, morally myopic meme of political con men that it is.

So pay attention to those differences. Or keep fiddling while Rome burns. It's your choice.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-02 11:21pm

Why does he need the same deeds to be "just as bad" as someone else?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-02 11:24pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-02 11:21pm
Why does he need the same deeds to be "just as bad" as someone else?
He doesn't, necessarily, but I think there are fundamental differences here that are being obscured. Moreover, Elfdart said the was just as much of a fascist, and I think it that context it is fair to point out the ways in which Trump has fundamentally tried to make America more authoritarian in ways that HW did not.

That's not to say HW was a good President or a good man. But the fascist label is one I'd be hesitant to apply to him. At worst, in terms of how he governed, he was an accessory to fascists in certain other countries.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14279
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm
Location: YHM

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by aerius » 2018-12-03 12:18am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-02 11:24pm
He doesn't, necessarily, but I think there are fundamental differences here that are being obscured. Moreover, Elfdart said the was just as much of a fascist, and I think it that context it is fair to point out the ways in which Trump has fundamentally tried to make America more authoritarian in ways that HW did not.

That's not to say HW was a good President or a good man. But the fascist label is one I'd be hesitant to apply to him. At worst, in terms of how he governed, he was an accessory to fascists in certain other countries.
So because he carries out his fascism in other countries and hides it better at home, he's not as bad? Better for America perhaps, but I'd argue it's just as bad or worse since he's happy to engage in fascist repressive shit in other countries to enrich himself and his cronies.

I'll say the same thing I did in the John McCain thread. Good riddance, and fuck him.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 10137
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-12-03 07:14am

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 12:18am
So because he carries out his fascism in other countries and hides it better at home, he's not as bad? Better for America perhaps, but I'd argue it's just as bad or worse since he's happy to engage in fascist repressive shit in other countries to enrich himself and his cronies.

I'll say the same thing I did in the John McCain thread. Good riddance, and fuck him.
Indeed. How many wars did Trump start compared to Bush? I don't think the trade war with China counts. :D
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
His Divine Shadow
Commence Primary Ignition
Posts: 11869
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:22am
Location: Vasa, Finland

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2018-12-03 08:15am

Good riddance, rest in piss.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 01:08pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 12:18am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-02 11:24pm
He doesn't, necessarily, but I think there are fundamental differences here that are being obscured. Moreover, Elfdart said the was just as much of a fascist, and I think it that context it is fair to point out the ways in which Trump has fundamentally tried to make America more authoritarian in ways that HW did not.

That's not to say HW was a good President or a good man. But the fascist label is one I'd be hesitant to apply to him. At worst, in terms of how he governed, he was an accessory to fascists in certain other countries.
So because he carries out his fascism in other countries and hides it better at home, he's not as bad? Better for America perhaps, but I'd argue it's just as bad or worse since he's happy to engage in fascist repressive shit in other countries to enrich himself and his cronies.

I'll say the same thing I did in the John McCain thread. Good riddance, and fuck him.
Perhaps, but there are nonetheless meaningful differences between him and Trump. The way I see it, Bush Sr. was a part of a bad status quo. Whereas Trump is actively moving America (and the world) in a worse direction, in ways Bush Sr. never dared to do (whether out of some kind of principle or simply because he didn't think he could get away with it, I can't say).

Recognizing this is not about trying to defend Bush Srs. crimes. Its about not normalizing Trump's by equating them.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 03:57pm

For talk of moving the US and the world in a worse direction, what do you make of Bush's work at the CIA involving drug trafficking in Central America?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 04:10pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 03:57pm
For talk of moving the US and the world in a worse direction, what do you make of Bush's work at the CIA involving drug trafficking in Central America?
Despicable, but still not in the same league as trying to turn the most powerful nation in the world (and its allies) into fascist white nationalist autocracies.

Look, I'm not trying to defend the man's record. I just wish we could have a more nuanced discussion on the subject than endless repetitions of intellectually lazy "they're all just as bad" bullshit which substitutes one-dimensional thinking for analysis.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 04:38pm

I would add, though, that George HW Bush is the kind of "establishment" politician who plays into fascists' hands inadvertently, by being sufficiently corrupt that he makes it easier to sell people frustrated with the status quo on a "Both Sides"/Change At Any Cost narrative. He's the kind of moderate who creates openings for fascism.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

Ralin
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2414
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Ralin » 2018-12-03 04:42pm

aerius wrote:
2018-12-03 12:18am
So because he carries out his fascism in other countries and hides it better at home, he's not as bad? Better for America perhaps, but I'd argue it's just as bad or worse since he's happy to engage in fascist repressive shit in other countries to enrich himself and his cronies.
Define 'carry out fascism in other countries.' Because assassinating people, backing friendly dictators and the like doesn't seem particularly associated with fascist ideology unless we're using that as shorthand for 'bad right-wing person,' which I'm pretty sure Elfdart does because he's trying his best to be shocking and abrasive.

That aside, it should be obvious that a Trumped American government can be expected to do all those things only more and worse in the long run. Yeah Trump hasn't actually started any new wars (it's on the shortlist of positive things about his presidency), but do you really think that he or whichever far-right Trump imitator follows him isn't going to to eventually give us Iraq 3.0, This Time Without The Good Intentions?

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14563
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 05:11pm

Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 05:16pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3445
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-03 05:21pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:16pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
A tyrant installed by us, and kept in power by Bush the Elder, Cheney, and the like. And, that was Iraq 3.0, if one counts the Iran-iraq proxy war, the one where both sides got American military aid from the Bush shadow government/Reagan Administration.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15674
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 05:24pm

The War on Terror was definitely in large part a (badly botched) effort by America to deal with messes it created. Mostly, it just left things ever worse.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14279
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm
Location: YHM

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by aerius » 2018-12-03 05:26pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 05:16pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-03 05:11pm
Iraq 2.0 had good intentions?
A mix of good and bad intentions I'd say, with which one predominated depending on the person in question. I can believe that some of the people involved genuinely believed that they were liberating Iraqis and overthrowing a tyrant. Some, I expect, were more in it for the money (cough-Cheney-cough).
You cannot be serious.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P

User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3445
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: George HW Bush has died

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-12-03 05:27pm

And Jollie Ollie in charge of the NRA.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford

Post Reply