Inspired by this post:
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic ... 2&t=167834aerius wrote: ↑2018-11-27 12:00amSo where were you when the US helped put the fucking Nazis in power in the Ukraine? Or when the US decided that siding with and supporting "moderate ISIS" fighters in Syria and other parts of the Middle East was a good thing? Or when you were "bringing freedom" to the Middle East and turning every country you touched into a shithole?The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-11-26 11:45pmWe have two choices here: We can call out all acts of tyranny, whatever country commits them, and actually fucking stand for something... or we can conclude that everything is equally bad and always will be, stop trying to make the world better for fear of being "hypocritical", and pat ourselves on the back for being smarter than the sheeple who actually believe in things like "justice" or "truth". And that would still be better and more honest than what the Kremlin's dip shit internet lemmings do, because they're not actually trying to treat anyone as equal. They're trying to say "The US/the West is evil, therefore Putin/Assad/etc. are the good guys when they do the same thing."
I declined to answer what I felt was a derail in that thread, but I will address it here:
First, I would request sources for the claims of the US putting Nazis in power in the Ukraine (not that I doubt the presence of Nazis in the Ukrainian government, but I would like more particulars on the full extent and how much awareness America had of this at the time), and for the "moderate ISIS" quote. That said:
Ukraine: Though my focus with regards to Ukraine has been on Russian aggression due to the greater threat it posed, and I was hesitant to believe allegations against the Ukrainian government (in part due to the history of Kremlin propagandists using such labels against all their opponents), at this point I would say that the US and other nations should sanction both the Ukrainian and Russian governments, seek to mediate a diplomatic solution and offer humanitarian aid to civilians on both sides if possible, but otherwise not intervene or take a side in this conflict. Fascistic governments and politicians should not receive any support, regardless of which flag they march under, and Poroshenko's declaration of martial law ahead of elections is not a justifiable act, or one which other nations should in any way support.
Syria: Though I would refute the Kremlin propagandists' argument that all opposition to Assad is comprised of jihadi terrorists, I would strongly question a number of America's actions in Syria. I believe that there was more of a moderate opposition in Syria initially, and that that opposition could perhaps have prevailed had it received more support early on, before large-scale Russian intervention occurred to secure Assad's position. However, the world dithered, and as a result the conflict deteriorated into one seemingly dominated by Jihadis vs Assad and Russia. I also feel that direct US military involvement of any kind was ill-advised, as it could not take place on a scale necessary to be effective without leading to war with Russia, and thus served only to prolong the war. I would consider Obama's ultimatum on chemical weapons and subsequent inevitable retreat, in particular, to be probably the biggest US foreign policy blunder between the invasion of Iraq and Trump's public cock-sucking of Kim Jong Un. Any real solution would have meant persuading Russia to throw Assad under the bus, and providing more support to the moderate opposition early on. That opportunity, regrettably, has long since passed, and the result is hundreds of thousands dead for essentially nothing, except the further expansion of Russian power and erosion of the taboo on the use of chemical weapons.
Assorted other Middle Eastern interventions:
Afghanistan: Initially justified by the September 11th. attacks, and any other nation with the means to respond to such an attack militarily would have done the same. However, the war was incompetently waged, with frequent disregard for civilian casualties, and far too much focus on Bush's corrupt sideshow in Iraq. The result was a great deal of largely unnecessary and pointless suffering, primarily for Afghani civilians.
Iraq 2003: Unnecessary, a costly distraction from Afghanistan, sold to the public by deceit, and incompetently executed, with numerous war crimes committed by coalition forces, waged at great cost to America and an even greater cost to Iraq, which contributed to subsequent disastrous conflicts in the Middle East. Arguably the biggest failure in US foreign policy history, though the long-term consequences of Trump's actions with regard to Russia and NK may surpass it.
Libya: Theoretically justified to prevent a slaughter of civilians, and conducted with broad international support. Incompetently carried out, without an adequate plan for the aftermath. This suggests a failure to learn the lessons from the occupation of Iraq.
War against ISIS: Intervention against ISIS in Iraq was absolutely necessary, both because of the genocide being waged, and because if ISIS had overrun Iraq, they would certainly have continued into other countries allied to the US (including Turkey, which could have triggered NATO treaty obligations). However, this is a conflict that will ultimately have to be solved by a long-term effort to address the root causes of terrorism, through improving relations with the Muslim world, strengthening the economies and governments of developing countries, and finding more effective ways to counter jihadi propaganda. It seems vanishingly unlikely that the US under Trump will be capable of taking any of these steps.
Syria: Intervention was theoretically justifiable, due to the Assad regime's use of chemical weapons and the numerous times the war has spilled over other countries' borders. In practice... see above.
Yemen: We should have no part in this, and certainly not as allies to the Saudis.
Edit: I will add that I believe I have been quite consistent in my opposition both to American military intervention on Syria (albeit on practical rather than moral grounds), and to the 2003 Iraq invasion.