American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

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Ralin
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Ralin » 2018-11-24 03:19am

Aether wrote:
2018-11-24 12:12am
I guess they shouldn't have killed him, then huh?
I dunno. Seems like he could spread his foreign pestilence a lot more easily if he was still moving around.

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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-11-24 05:19am

Aether wrote:
2018-11-24 12:12am
Ralin wrote:
2018-11-23 10:30pm
Also apparently his body is still on the island and could be carrying god knows what.
I guess they shouldn't have killed him, then huh?
Lot of common viruses are spread via respiratory droplets or the faecal oral route. None of which are going to apply any more since he kind of is dead. And he was likely shot several metres away, making it harder for the droplets to spread to the Sentinel islanders. If he has any skin bacteria like MRSA or is a carrier of meningococcal, its less likely a problem if they keep away from the body. Without antibiotics, I suspect MRSA would be outcompeted by the regular bacteria living on the island.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Korto » 2018-11-24 07:25am

Eulogy wrote:
2018-11-23 01:04am
I doubt a just and loving God would fault His flock if they didn't want to be killed if they tried converting people in certain places. Oh well, I doubt this murder will be prosecuted anytime soon.
Wasn't murder. The island is basically an autonomous state. They say what the law is there.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-24 10:23am

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-11-23 12:36pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-11-22 06:18pm
muse wrote:
2018-11-22 03:41pm
He was a missionary once...
Then he took an arrow to the knee.
Seems everyone in Skyrim has :lol:

North Sentinel Island. Estimates of its population range from 40-400. The entire island is one giant forest. If the sea level rises though...
According to the article's description, the land rises about 20m not very far inland from the beach, sloping upward to terminate between 46m and 122m near the center. The sea level would have to rise an awful lot to submerge North Sentinel.
Yeah, I hadn't realised the max elevation is greater than the 60M the sea could rise if the ice in the Antarctic melted, especially since the Indian Ocean earthquake actually elevated the whole thing a few metres.

Every indication is that the island is so isolated and hostile to outsiders it makes North Korea look like France, and their language is completely different to those of other tribes in the area. And thanks to all the trees it's not even possible to observe the place from a distance.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-11-24 12:31pm

Well, it is possible, but no one's making the expenditure. If a modern military really wanted an aerial survey with IR scanners could be done to get a fairly accurate count, but since the idea is to not interfere with them, getting a count doesn't serve much purpose.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-24 01:10pm

Eulogy wrote:
2018-11-23 01:04am
Oh well, I doubt this murder will be prosecuted anytime soon.
Actually, they are looking at charging the people that helped the would be missionary reach the island.

They all knew it was illegal, and that the natives would likely kill him. That would be conspiracy to commit murder, and murder, IMHO.

The natives, however, had made it very clear the rest of the world was to stay the fuck away from their island, and the Indian government agrees with them.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-24 01:13pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-11-24 12:31pm
Well, it is possible, but no one's making the expenditure. If a modern military really wanted an aerial survey with IR scanners could be done to get a fairly accurate count, but since the idea is to not interfere with them, getting a count doesn't serve much purpose.
You could do it to monitor the native population levels. Regular flights would also discourage idiots from trying something like a night landing with diseased bodys or food or similiar, hoping to wipe out the natives so the island could be logged or something equally stupid.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-24 06:31pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-11-24 01:13pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-11-24 12:31pm
Well, it is possible, but no one's making the expenditure. If a modern military really wanted an aerial survey with IR scanners could be done to get a fairly accurate count, but since the idea is to not interfere with them, getting a count doesn't serve much purpose.
You could do it to monitor the native population levels. Regular flights would also discourage idiots from trying something like a night landing with diseased bodys or food or similiar, hoping to wipe out the natives so the island could be logged or something equally stupid.
More likely is someone decides it would be a good site at which to drill for oil/gas and we end up with an Avatar-type situation. Apparently there are reserves of such in the Andaman area...
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-11-24 07:49pm

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation ... 67275.html
Relatives of a Christian adventurer who was killed on a remote island in the Indian Ocean say they forgive the isolated band of locals whose bow-and-arrow attack proved fatal.
That's nice that you forgiven them for defending their lands. :D
“I see him as a martyr,” said John Middleton Ramsey, a 22-year-old friend of Chau’s, according to CNN. “He was someone who died out of love for these people to bring the good news of Jesus Christ.”
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-11-24 09:03pm

The rest of the world sees him as an arrogant jackass. He was someone who presumed moral superiority, and, thus the right to impose himself where he wasn't wanted, therefore getting exactly what was coming to him.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-24 10:27pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-11-24 06:31pm
More likely is someone decides it would be a good site at which to drill for oil/gas and we end up with an Avatar-type situation. Apparently there are reserves of such in the Andaman area...
Avatar only made sense because it was a joint scientific/industry expedition. You're not going to get scientists trying to study the planet to develop weapons to wipe it out.

However, wiping out an isolated human population on Earth is rather easy. Especially in such a small area. The only question would be how to do it without the Indian government getting upset.

A 'fighting the natives' oil expedition would probably upset them. The natives 'happening' to die out from disease however....
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by White Haven » 2018-11-25 11:22am

To play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, if the occupants of my apartment complex were to loudly proclaim my intent to exterminate any and all people that I perceive existing outside the complex and then carry that out, we would not be quarantined and left alone, we would be thoroughly fucked. We warned people in advance, so it's on their head if they get killed and have their bodies left in the parking lot as a warning to the next lot, right?

In a situation like that, I would not feel terribly sympathetic to someone who ignored the danger and got himself killed -- but I would still expect my apartment complex to get thoroughly crushed.

How does 'he knew he would be shot to death if he did this thing' excuse people from shooting him to death?
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-11-25 11:41am

Is that a serious question?

For one thing, in the United States, it is legal to use lethal force against trespassers if the property owners fear great bodily harm or death. It's considered reasonable self-defense. And these natives ARE at risk of bodily harm or death from missionaries like this, both due to the disease issue that has been well discussed elsewhere in this thread and due to the centuries of precedence that show integration of such tribes tends to be violent (or, at best, lead to them "peacefully" being coerced into second-class citizens ... for example, look at the plight of the Jarawa tribes that occupy other islands in the same archipelago).

So, no, your apartment complex would not be "thoroughly crushed", if the situation were at all remotely comparable. (Hell, given the precedent established by the Bundy militia, it seems doubtful that you would get prosecuted even if you shot a trespasser who DIDN'T pose a threat, as long as you spouted right-wing ideals while doing so).

Secondly, even if you dismiss all of that, your apartment complex isn't sovereign or autonomous. You have to observe the laws of the county, state, and country in which you live. North Sentinel Island, however, IS autonomous. It is considered a sovereign entity that happens to be under Indian protection. They have established that the denizens of the island have the right to govern themselves by whatever legal apparatus their society deems appropriate, and that the Indian government does not have the right to prosecute them for the deaths of non-islanders who visit the island.

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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by aerius » 2018-11-25 12:12pm

White Haven wrote:
2018-11-25 11:22am
To play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, if the occupants of my apartment complex were to loudly proclaim my intent to exterminate any and all people that I perceive existing outside the complex and then carry that out, we would not be quarantined and left alone, we would be thoroughly fucked. We warned people in advance, so it's on their head if they get killed and have their bodies left in the parking lot as a warning to the next lot, right?

In a situation like that, I would not feel terribly sympathetic to someone who ignored the danger and got himself killed -- but I would still expect my apartment complex to get thoroughly crushed.

How does 'he knew he would be shot to death if he did this thing' excuse people from shooting him to death?
That's not an equivalent situation. If you apartment complex did the above, and city formally & legally recognizes it, and the city has banned visitors and setup a no-go zone around area, then you have something equivalent to the island. And if you have all the above in place and some outsider dumbass still tries, multiple times I might add, to enter your apartment and gets shot, it's his damn fault for being a dumbass. It's a jungle in there, and you ain't in Kansas no more.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-25 03:34pm

White Haven wrote:
2018-11-25 11:22am
To play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, if the occupants of my apartment complex were to loudly proclaim my intent to exterminate any and all people that I perceive existing outside the complex and then carry that out, we would not be quarantined and left alone, we would be thoroughly fucked. We warned people in advance, so it's on their head if they get killed and have their bodies left in the parking lot as a warning to the next lot, right?

In a situation like that, I would not feel terribly sympathetic to someone who ignored the danger and got himself killed -- but I would still expect my apartment complex to get thoroughly crushed.

How does 'he knew he would be shot to death if he did this thing' excuse people from shooting him to death?
I don't think the shooting was justified, but I also don't think we can equate it to an ordinary murder. If we treat the island as effectively a sovereign nation (as appears to be the case)... well, as far as we can tell it wasn't murder under the local law. Whereas an apartment complex within an existing nation declaring itself a sovereign nation and killing anyone who approached would be insurrection/terrorism, and dealt with accordingly by law enforcement/the armed forces.

We might criticize them for it, but we wouldn't "crush" North Korea because they shot some dumbass trying to waltz across the DMZ either. Granted, that's partly because it would be considerably more difficult to crush NK than to crush this island, but still.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-25 03:56pm

White Haven wrote:
2018-11-25 11:22am
To play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, if the occupants of my apartment complex were to loudly proclaim my intent to exterminate any and all people that I perceive existing outside the complex and then carry that out, we would not be quarantined and left alone, we would be thoroughly fucked. We warned people in advance, so it's on their head if they get killed and have their bodies left in the parking lot as a warning to the next lot, right?

In a situation like that, I would not feel terribly sympathetic to someone who ignored the danger and got himself killed -- but I would still expect my apartment complex to get thoroughly crushed.

How does 'he knew he would be shot to death if he did this thing' excuse people from shooting him to death?
Oh bloody hell, are you playing Devil's Advocate, or Blithering Idiot?

First, if an apartment building were to declare itself independent, in any city, it would be subject to an immediate response from the government.

This island was never part of India to begin with. They've been totally isolated and independent from the rest of the outside world so fucking long, they have no common language with anyone. They've been isolated from any outsider governments SINCE BEFORE OUR SPECIES HAD THE CONCEPT OF IT.

The only other possible approximation of it that could happen in real life would require the idiot missionary to have gotten on a starship and gone to another fucking solar system and the natives there shot him, or an alien having come to earth and the local military shot him.

And you're comparing an apartment complex pulling stupidity to it? This isn't Demolition Man.

Idiot went to Independent Nation that has no contact with anyone. Idiot went there despite it being illegal in the territory he was in. Idiot went there despite the the natives of that nation not wanting him there. Idiot got a warning shot. Idiot left. IDIOT WENT BACK. Idiot was turned into a pin cushion.

That's the scenario. Any other comparison is, quite frankly, insulting to read.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by Zixinus » 2018-11-26 01:09pm

White Haven wrote:
2018-11-25 11:22am
To play Devil's Advocate here for a moment, if the occupants of my apartment complex were to loudly proclaim my intent to exterminate any and all people that I perceive existing outside the complex and then carry that out, we would not be quarantined and left alone, we would be thoroughly fucked. We warned people in advance, so it's on their head if they get killed and have their bodies left in the parking lot as a warning to the next lot, right?

In a situation like that, I would not feel terribly sympathetic to someone who ignored the danger and got himself killed -- but I would still expect my apartment complex to get thoroughly crushed.

How does 'he knew he would be shot to death if he did this thing' excuse people from shooting him to death?
Because it was a public fucking knowledge. The fact that the natives kill anyone who approaches is one of the few well-known bits of information about the people there. There is almost no real way he would have learned about that place enough to know where to go and not know that the natives will shoot anyone who approaches. In India, it is a matter of public law. If there are not actual signs in English, he would have been told about from people when he asked to go there. He had to knew that fact because he had to bribe fishermen to get to the island. As far as we know, he went there on his own will and volition. A scenario where he did not know is almost completely absurd.

The apartment complex thing isn't relevant because the natives on that island didn't declare themselves an independent nation. They didn't declare anything other than "we'll shoot you if you come here". They lived there as far as anyone knows.

There is no government response because this is not a new situation and this guy isn't the first to get killed or hurt. The government of India has jurisdiction on how to handle the matter and they decided that everyone should leave these people alone. By making it law that they are to be left alone. Which this guy violated.

It's like going to the Artic Circle to try and wrestle with polar bears. Or playing hop-stock in a known mine-field. Yes, the natives to that island are human beings but they have made their stance very clear and official laws are also clear.
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Re: American missionary tries preaching to natives and killed

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-12-03 11:36pm



TYT does a good job on describing this case, including on what missionaries do (not all of them have the same strategy).

Love the line about drinking from the blood of our zombie god, reminds me of stuff Darth Wong used to say.
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