Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions.

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Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-21 03:47am

Total ban. No exceptions for rape, incest, or life of the mother. The law also does not clarify whether causing the death of a foetus unintentionally, or having a miscarriage, might be illegal as well. So if a teenage girl is raped and, while dealing with the trauma of that experience, makes the decision to terminate the pregnancy, the Great State of Ohio will be able to legally murder her. If she accidentally miscarries due to factors entirely beyond her control, while dealing with the trauma of having suffered a miscarriage, she could be arrested, tried as a murderer, and then murdered by the State.

I've also seen it claimed that the bill includes a provision that physicians cannot provide any medical care to a woman without first taking into account the health of the fetus, though I have yet to verify that.

Their House has already passed a foetal heartbeat bill, banning abortion and providing for penalties including up to one year in prison for physicians who perform and abortion. Governor Kasich has threatened to veto it, showing once again why he is one of the few prominent Republicans who I might actually bother to piss on if he were on fire.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 42381.html
Politicians in Ohio are considering passing a bill that could allow abortions to be punishable with life sentences in prison and even the death penalty.

The proposed law, House Bill 565, would extend the definition of a person in Ohio's criminal code to include the "unborn human".

This would mean that a foetus, from conception to birth, would be considered a person, leaving people who perform or undergo abortions vulnerable to severe criminal penalties.

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House Bill 565 makes no exception for pregnancies arising from rape or incest or which risk the life of the mother.

The Ohio legislature is controlled by the local Republican party.



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The bill would not only criminalise abortion but also defines the process as "causing the death of an unborn human, by any method, including, but not limited to, chemical methods, medical methods, and surgical methods."

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Although the document does not include miscarriages, it is unclear how an unintended termination would be proven by a woman or doctor under scrutiny.


The bill was proposed in March and is awaiting consideration by the legislature's health committee.

House Bill 565 is only the latest bill to be introduced in the Ohio legislature that seeks to severely limit abortion rights.

The so-called 'heartbeat bill', which would criminalise performing abortions at the point a foetal heartbeat is detected, was passed by the Ohio House of Representatives on 15 November.

Most women are unaware of their pregnancy at this point.


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Doctors who perform an abortion on a foetus with a heartbeat could be punished with up to a year in prison and a $2,500 fine, according to The New York Times.

The 'heartbeat bill' will now pass to the Ohio state Senate.

Governor John Kasich has threatened to veto the controversial bill if it reaches his desk, according to local newspaper The Columbus Dispatch.

A 3/5 majority vote in both the Ohio House of Representatives and state Senate would be needed to override the Republican governor's veto.
Look, I'll admit that despite being agnostic, and progressive on most issues, I am actually deeply conflicted on the subject of abortion. I recognize that its something that we can't ban, and that to do so would be a violation of womens' rights, but the thought of it happening still makes me uncomfortable, and I worry about the implications of deciding when an organism qualifies as sufficiently alive to be a person. I've often steered clear of abortion debates, in part for that reason. In my ideal world, we would have sufficient birth control, sex education, and support for new mothers to ensure that people did not feel the need to have abortions.

But there is no ambiguity about this bill. This is legalized murder, pure and simple. This is saying that life is valuable only until it is born, and not after (at least if its a woman's life). This is implicitly saying that women's only worth is as breeding stock, and if they aren't filling that role, then they're better off dead.

In short, women are worth nothing in Ohio except as breeding livestock, and if they don't know their place, or even if they suffer a tragic accident, then they will be murdered by the state. A few months ago, I would have had little fear of this actually being enacted as law. Now, on the Kavanaugh Supreme Court and with RBG's health uncertain... I can honestly see abortion being criminalized, or "left up to the states", and this becoming law in many stats in the not too distant future.

If this bill or any like it is enacted as law, permitted by the Courts, and enforced by the State, then I would consider that, and I say this in absolute seriousness and without a shred of hyperbole, a causus belli for armed resistance.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Broomstick » 2018-11-21 04:06am

Even in the pre Roe v. Wade days abortions were allowed to save the life of the mother. That, at least, would seem to be an issue since US law doesn't require one person to give their life for another.

This will also impact fertility clinics that do conception outside the body - they will have to ensure ALL fertilized ova are protected and preserved indefinitely, and could be brought up murder/negligent homicide charges if, say, the freezer breaks down.

Probably other ramifications I haven't thought of yet.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-21 04:07am

Its insanity. Utter insanity. How broken does someone's brain have to be to think that this is a good idea?
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2018-11-21 04:16am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-21 03:47am
Look, I'll admit that despite being agnostic, and progressive on most issues, I am actually deeply conflicted on the subject of abortion. I recognize that its something that we can't ban, and that to do so would be a violation of womens' rights, but the thought of it happening still makes me uncomfortable, and I worry about the implications of deciding when an organism qualifies as sufficiently alive to be a person. I've often steered clear of abortion debates, in part for that reason. In my ideal world, we would have sufficient birth control, sex education, and support for new mothers to ensure that people did not feel the need to have abortions.
That is the liberal position.
Clinton himself, who made no secret of his support for abortion during his 1992 campaign, still repeats the mantra of "safe, legal, and rare" abortion.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... on/309050/

Nobody likes abortion, but there are numerous reasons why it should be allowed.

AKA, your position, and every other liberal's.

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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-21 04:26am

The conflict for me stems from the fact that I can't make myself see a fetus as not alive, not a person-if still a developing person-which is out of step with the more hard-line views that a fetus is simply part of the woman's body, or even a "parasite".

So to me, the issue is a seemingly insoluble conflict- I see fetuses as in some sense people, but I also recognize that the mother is a person with a right to control her own body and sexuality (and that criminalizing abortions just means unsafe illegal abortions). So to me its a no-win situation arising from two fundamental rights which are in conflict. The only "out" being to try to reduce the circumstances which lead women to seek abortions, rather than criminalizing abortions themselves (incidentally, this is part of why I hate the Right so much on this issue- everything they could do to actually decrease the number of abortions they also oppose, whether its "immoral" birth control and sex ed, or "socialist" support for poor single mothers, or "SJW" opposition to rape culture. It would be funny how much they shoot themselves in the foot, if it weren't so awful.)

But bills like this- they don't recognize that the woman's life has any value. You can practically feel the hatred of women coursing through every word. The enactment of a bill like this is to me a crime almost akin to legalizing slavery or genocide.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by aerius » 2018-11-21 11:57am

That law will get struck down so fast it's not even funny. Mississippi passed a similar law for abortions after 15 weeks which just got whacked by a Federal judge for being unconstitutional. Precedence has been established, if Ohio passes its abortion ban it'll be challenged immediately and get overturned in short order.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-21 01:05pm

What happens when abortion makes its way to the Supreme Court again? The current court MIGHT hold the line. What happens if Trump gets another Justice?
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-21 04:27pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-21 04:07am
Its insanity. Utter insanity. How broken does someone's brain have to be to think that this is a good idea?
Ohio Republicans get to play to their extremist base, while everyone else gets to point at this bill and say "at least we're not that bad" when they propose a bill which knocks a.few more weeks off the existing limits.

Then the Ohio GOP get to complain that someone else struck down their proposed laws.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by TimothyC » 2018-11-21 07:53pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-21 04:27pm
Ohio Republicans get to play to their extremist base, while everyone else gets to point at this bill and say "at least we're not that bad" when they propose a bill which knocks a.few more weeks off the existing limits.

Then the Ohio GOP get to complain that someone else struck down their proposed laws.
Ohio democrats are a nigh unto useless lot. In a year that should have been good for them, there are now a grand total of three democrats elected to state-wide office (Sen. Brown and Justices Donnelly & Stewart). Republicans will retain a supermajority in both houses of the state general assembly and all state executives.

Seriously, they need to get their shit together.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-21 08:40pm

Weirdly, that reads like you're blaming the Democrats for not reining in Republican extremists. I assume that's not the case, but it reads that way.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Alferd Packer » 2018-11-21 09:39pm

TimothyC wrote:
2018-11-21 07:53pm
Ohio democrats are a nigh unto useless lot. In a year that should have been good for them, there are now a grand total of three democrats elected to state-wide office (Sen. Brown and Justices Donnelly & Stewart). Republicans will retain a supermajority in both houses of the state general assembly and all state executives.

Seriously, they need to get their shit together.
Based on voting habits and demographic data, I don't think there are enough Ohio Democrats left to warrant such a clarion call. The wealthy urban liberals have been fleeing the state, leaving the the rural, conservative population to exert greater influence on state and national offices. It's the story of Missouri all over again: a former bellwether state turned into a Republican stronghold.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by TimothyC » 2018-11-21 10:47pm

First of all, it's a stupid proposal, and I've already called my state rep over this. I think that Rep. Henne's staff got tired of hearing from me years ago, and incoming Rep. Plumber's staff will too.
Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-21 08:40pm
Weirdly, that reads like you're blaming the Democrats for not reining in Republican extremists. I assume that's not the case, but it reads that way.
I had a long convoluted thing typed up, but it comes down to "It would be easier for those of us in the Ohio GOP who don't like this shit to stop it from coming up if we had a functional opposition." It's possible for rather liberal democrats to win here (see Sen. Brown), but god, they keep screwing up.

STOP SCREWING UP.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-22 12:15am

TimothyC wrote:
2018-11-21 10:47pm
I had a long convoluted thing typed up, but it comes down to "It would be easier for those of us in the Ohio GOP who don't like this shit to stop it from coming up if we had a functional opposition." It's possible for rather liberal democrats to win here (see Sen. Brown), but god, they keep screwing up.

STOP SCREWING UP.
Wouldn't it also be easier to stop this if the extremists (or are they now closer to mainstream?) had a functional opposition within the party? It must be pretty fucked up over there if people are saying that.

I'm alsp slightly bamboozled that people aren't leaving the party, but that's a concern for another time.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by aerius » 2018-11-22 12:24am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-21 01:05pm
What happens when abortion makes its way to the Supreme Court again? The current court MIGHT hold the line. What happens if Trump gets another Justice?
If your Supreme Court is that far gone you won't have a country that's worth living in.
In other words, it's overthrow the government or GTFO time.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by TimothyC » 2018-11-22 12:43am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-22 12:15am
Wouldn't it also be easier to stop this if the extremists (or are they now closer to mainstream?) had a functional opposition within the party? It must be pretty fucked up over there if people are saying that.
Probably the most powerful argument (other than cutting off funding, which can be hit or miss) that the Ohio GOP has is one of trying, desperately to get those on the far right that if they try this shit they will loose their majority, and then you won't get anything you want. It's hard to make that case when the Ohio Dems watched the bench implode over 2010-2014, and didn't make any effort to stem the tide, or for that matter to counter it. The erosion was masked by Obama and Brown in 2012, and it looked like the hope was that Pres. Trump would help them out in 2018, but it didn't work. I mean, the gubanatorial race was between Richard Cordray and Mike DeWine - a repeat of the 2010 Ohio AG race, and even with DeWine screwing up, and Sen. Brown's coat-tails, Cordray couldn't pull it out.

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-22 12:15am
I'm alsp slightly bamboozled that people aren't leaving the party, but that's a concern for another time.
The Ohio GOP is not a unified block - there are factions that stayed loyal to Gov. Kasich (and form the basis of any primary challenge to Pres. Trump), and other factions that took a Trumpian turn in 2016, and have not looked back. What happens to the state party, and the factions is up in the air over the next two years or so. Will DeWine come home to the moderate wing? Will Gov. Kasich lead a credible challenge to Pres. Trump? I don't have answers.

What I can tell you is that the Ohio GOP is going to keep getting further to the right if the left can't put together a coherent response.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 01:08am

Ah, the classic conservative line- "the country is turning fascist- its the Left's fault!"

Or maybe its the fact that the Republican Party sold its soul to the devil for power, and welcomed white nationalists to its ranks with open arms, legitimizing them and making them part of the mainstream.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 01:11am

aerius wrote:
2018-11-22 12:24am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-21 01:05pm
What happens when abortion makes its way to the Supreme Court again? The current court MIGHT hold the line. What happens if Trump gets another Justice?
If your Supreme Court is that far gone you won't have a country that's worth living in.
In other words, it's overthrow the government or GTFO time.
If the Supreme Court approved a Murder Women Law, then an argument could indeed be made for resistance (either via civil disobedience and protest, or force of arms) against the government. As to whether it will reach that point... a lot depends on RBG's continued health, and perhaps even more it depends on Justice Roberts. He disappointed me on the Muslim ban vote, but he has often shown a willingness to act as a judge, not a partisan hack, and vote outside of "party lines". He also recently rebuked Trump for his attacks on "Obama judges", which is a very rare step for the usually a-political Chief Justice to take.

So the question is: will Roberts continue to act as a Judge first and a Republican second, or not?
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Broomstick » 2018-11-22 05:37am

aerius wrote:
2018-11-22 12:24am
If your Supreme Court is that far gone you won't have a country that's worth living in.
In other words, it's overthrow the government or GTFO time.
People say GTFO and "leave" all the time, but the reality is that most Americans would not be able to find another country that would take them in. Sure, they're happy to have tourists but actually immigrating is very hard for most people.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-22 06:33am

Broomstick wrote:
2018-11-22 05:37am
People say GTFO and "leave" all the time, but the reality is that most Americans would not be able to find another country that would take them in. Sure, they're happy to have tourists but actually immigrating is very hard for most people.
If Ohio actually execute a woman for getting an abortion then a lot of people will be applying for asylum, not work permits. The requirements for that are at least theoretically supposed to be a bit looser.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Broomstick » 2018-11-22 08:22am

I don't think so.

For one thing, there hasn't been an exodus from other nations that ban abortion.

For another, historically immigration authorities have not been terribly sympathetic towards issues that only affect women.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Ralin » 2018-11-22 08:45am

Broomstick wrote:
2018-11-22 08:22am
I don't think so.

For one thing, there hasn't been an exodus from other nations that ban abortion.

For another, historically immigration authorities have not been terribly sympathetic towards issues that only affect women.
Eh. I mean, both valid points but 1) some sort of successfully enforced ban abortions and kill the women who get them law is presumably going to be accompanied by a ton of other heinous shit 2) off the top of my head countries that ban abortion tend to fall into the categories of being otherwise viewed as backwards, fundamentalist and/or not white or have workarounds that mitigate how big of a deal it is. Like Irish women having relatively free access to abortion services across the border.

Not completely sure about that second part, that's a 'right before I go to bed' reaction.

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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-22 03:19pm

TimothyC wrote:
2018-11-22 12:43am
Probably the most powerful argument (other than cutting off funding, which can be hit or miss) that the Ohio GOP has is one of trying, desperately to get those on the far right that if they try this shit they will loose their majority, and then you won't get anything you want. It's hard to make that case when the Ohio Dems watched the bench implode over 2010-2014, and didn't make any effort to stem the tide, or for that matter to counter it. The erosion was masked by Obama and Brown in 2012, and it looked like the hope was that Pres. Trump would help them out in 2018, but it didn't work. I mean, the gubanatorial race was between Richard Cordray and Mike DeWine - a repeat of the 2010 Ohio AG race, and even with DeWine screwing up, and Sen. Brown's coat-tails, Cordray couldn't pull it out.

*snip stuff I said, just to make this a shorter post*

The Ohio GOP is not a unified block - there are factions that stayed loyal to Gov. Kasich (and form the basis of any primary challenge to Pres. Trump), and other factions that took a Trumpian turn in 2016, and have not looked back. What happens to the state party, and the factions is up in the air over the next two years or so. Will DeWine come home to the moderate wing? Will Gov. Kasich lead a credible challenge to Pres. Trump? I don't have answers.

What I can tell you is that the Ohio GOP is going to keep getting further to the right if the left can't put together a coherent response.
Isn't that a pretty damning statement about the Ohio GOP, in that without functional opposition they'll do horrific things like this? You can claim factionalism, but this still happens under the Ohio GOP flag, so all under it get the same blame. Blaming the other side is lazy blame shifting, and reads like the weird shit they's say on HPCA.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 07:01pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-11-22 06:33am
Broomstick wrote:
2018-11-22 05:37am
People say GTFO and "leave" all the time, but the reality is that most Americans would not be able to find another country that would take them in. Sure, they're happy to have tourists but actually immigrating is very hard for most people.
If Ohio actually execute a woman for getting an abortion then a lot of people will be applying for asylum, not work permits. The requirements for that are at least theoretically supposed to be a bit looser.
Canada (the obvious destination for hypothetical American refugees, as it has been in the Revolutionary War, the Underground Railroad, and Vietnam) accepts asylum seekers- but if they come over the border from the US, they get turned back. Why? Because the US is (alone out of all countries in the world, I believe), deemed a "safe third party"- meaning that if a refugee gets as far as America, they are deemed to be safe, and Canada won't grant them asylum.

Which is utterly laughable in the age of Trumpism, and I and others have lobbied the Canadian government to revoke America's safe third party status. Thus far, without success.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-22 07:17pm

Not so unique as all that: Most EU member-states are considered as such, which has led to some issues because the first "safe countries" bordering the not-so-safe ones in North Africa are not necessarily equipped to cope with the influx by themselves. But that rule is a not wholly unreasonable precaution against people rejected by one country shopping around until they find somewhere more amenable. (Which admittedly relies on all countries playing by the same rules, but that's another discussion.)

Of course, the USA's status as a safe country depends on it being within shouting distance of democratic and respectful of international law.
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Re: Ohio Legislature is considering a total abortion ban, which could mean the death penalty for women who get abortions

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2018-11-22 11:53pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-11-22 03:19pm
TimothyC wrote:
2018-11-22 12:43am
Probably the most powerful argument (other than cutting off funding, which can be hit or miss) that the Ohio GOP has is one of trying, desperately to get those on the far right that if they try this shit they will loose their majority, and then you won't get anything you want. It's hard to make that case when the Ohio Dems watched the bench implode over 2010-2014, and didn't make any effort to stem the tide, or for that matter to counter it. The erosion was masked by Obama and Brown in 2012, and it looked like the hope was that Pres. Trump would help them out in 2018, but it didn't work. I mean, the gubanatorial race was between Richard Cordray and Mike DeWine - a repeat of the 2010 Ohio AG race, and even with DeWine screwing up, and Sen. Brown's coat-tails, Cordray couldn't pull it out.

*snip stuff I said, just to make this a shorter post*

The Ohio GOP is not a unified block - there are factions that stayed loyal to Gov. Kasich (and form the basis of any primary challenge to Pres. Trump), and other factions that took a Trumpian turn in 2016, and have not looked back. What happens to the state party, and the factions is up in the air over the next two years or so. Will DeWine come home to the moderate wing? Will Gov. Kasich lead a credible challenge to Pres. Trump? I don't have answers.

What I can tell you is that the Ohio GOP is going to keep getting further to the right if the left can't put together a coherent response.
Isn't that a pretty damning statement about the Ohio GOP, in that without functional opposition they'll do horrific things like this? You can claim factionalism, but this still happens under the Ohio GOP flag, so all under it get the same blame. Blaming the other side is lazy blame shifting, and reads like the weird shit they's say on HPCA.
No. What he's saying is that this is symptomatic of one-party rule, regardless of the party in question. With no meaningful opposition in the general election, the election is effectively decided in the primary election. Who shows up for the primary elections? The hard-core of each party. As a result, with one party rule, the only way an incumbent can stay in power is to placate the party base, and the only way a challenger can win is to do so harder. It's a ratchet.
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