Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-10-28 02:51pm I'm not surprised. Fascists historically were not content to keep their oppression within their borders- why should we expect the new fascists to be any more hesitant to seize themselves some Lebensraum?
You mean self-defense? World peace? Democracy? Free-dumb.?

Oh, wait, that's right, Manifest Destiny. Redeeming the world, creating the new JerUSAlem, all that.
Given Trump's aggressive posturing towards both Mexico and Canada, and the history of fascism in this regard, there are times I wonder if our countries shouldn't be forming a bilateral mutual defence pact.
Canada and Mexico? Cause Canada and the UK are bound by the Treaty Of Westminster, as well as by the North Atlantic Treaty.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote: 2018-10-28 06:42pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-10-28 02:51pm I'm not surprised. Fascists historically were not content to keep their oppression within their borders- why should we expect the new fascists to be any more hesitant to seize themselves some Lebensraum?
You mean self-defense? World peace? Democracy? Free-dumb.?

Oh, wait, that's right, Manifest Destiny. Redeeming the world, creating the new JerUSAlem, all that.
Manifest Destiny hasn't been a serious political force in the US for a long time, though I could conceivably see it making a comeback in the current climate.

Dubious interventions and regime change based on claims of "security" or "democracy" are more recent, but not really analogous to outright annexing land and declaring it part of the US.

Hmm, can anyone tell me when was the last time the US outright annexed someone else's land?
Canada and Mexico? Cause Canada and the UK are bound by the Treaty Of Westminster, as well as by the North Atlantic Treaty.
And by the British Commonwealth.

I would hope that the UK would honour our ties if such a scenario were ever to occur, but the UK has been veering fascist itself of late, and might yet reduce itself to third world/failed state status, if the worst case Brexit scenarios come to pass.

Edit: But in any case, one cannot have too many allies, in a time like this.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Hmm, can anyone tell me when was the last time the US outright annexed someone else's land?
You'd have to ask the various Native tribes. And the Fillipinos. The Canadians as well, if not for the resistance of those meddling Canadians.

Oh, and the coup they engineered in Hawa'ii.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote: 2018-10-28 07:03pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:Hmm, can anyone tell me when was the last time the US outright annexed someone else's land?
You'd have to ask the various Native tribes. And the Fillipinos. The Canadians as well, if not for the resistance of those meddling Canadians.

Oh, and the coup they engineered in Hawa'ii.
I think perhaps you misunderstand. That was not my way of sarcastically denying that it ever happened- I'm not that historically illiterate. I was literally asking the date of the last time it happened.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Depends on how you define it, really. For example, the confiscation of various Pacific Island territories in the aftermath of World War II could plausibly count. But many of those territories had been under one or another colonial yoke for centuries, and the territories weren't ever really Japanese in the first place. If you are defining it more specifically in terms of America annexing a sovereign nation for incorporating into its own territory, the most recent example would be Hawaii.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So, late 19th. Century or (albeit barely) within living memory, depending on how you count it?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Just 800 troops you say? No big deal, you say?

Turns out its going to be "thousands". This is looking more and more like just the first step to a steady ramping-up of the military being deployed for domestic law enforcement- a slow-burn implementation of martial law.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-prepar ... ern-border


Edit: I also very much doubt it is a coincidence that Trump is deploy the military on US soil in advance of the election. Sure, its to "stop the caravan". But it also conveniently means that those troops will be already deployed in some key states in advance of any post-election day protests.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7429
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Zaune »

I wouldn't get too worried until they start showing up doing something other than busywork on-base. At the moment nothing's happened that can't be chalked up to macho posturing and bluster (ie business as usual), and it's probable the Defence Secretary/Designated Sane Person agreed to shuttling a few thousand REMFs between existing installations for a few weeks until this all blows over.

If we start seeing pictures of them driving along the border in full battle rattle, that's when it's time to worry.
Last edited by Zaune on 2018-10-29 04:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11862
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Crazedwraith »

Well some would say that's when it's too late. Though what you're supposed to do before then I don't know. Write to your representatives?
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Write your representatives, send a last minute donation to the Dems or volunteer to canvas for them if you haven't already, make sure to vote (and make sure you know what your voting rights are, and request a provisional ballot if prevented from voting), and pray.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ralin »

Not that I have much but contempt for most people who signed up for the US military in the past decade or so, but it occurs to me that actual soldiers are a whole lot less likely to open fire on refugees than the sort of hardcore true believer racist that works for ICE and Border Patrol these days. They have much better training and rules of engagement that are actually often enforced. Sends a bad message to deploy them, but I could easily believe that it will make things safer.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22430
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Mr Bean »

Ralin wrote: 2018-10-30 04:39am Not that I have much but contempt for most people who signed up for the US military in the past decade or so, but it occurs to me that actual soldiers are a whole lot less likely to open fire on refugees than the sort of hardcore true believer racist that works for ICE and Border Patrol these days. They have much better training and rules of engagement that are actually often enforced. Sends a bad message to deploy them, but I could easily believe that it will make things safer.
This is pretty much been proven in war zones with civilian contractor incidents VS military personnel.

But hey it's okay remember how the first number was about 800 and I predicted we'd see 200 people doing nothing but washing cars?
Trump sending 5,200 troops
The New York Times wrote:WASHINGTON — More than 5,000 active-duty military troops will deploy to the southern border by the end of this week, Defense Department officials said on Monday, an escalation of a midterm election show of force against a caravan of Central American migrants that President Trump has characterized as an “invasion of our country.”

The massing of American troops comes as Mr. Trump has seized on the caravan as a closing political message in the final week before the midterms, warning darkly — and without evidence — that “Middle Eastern” people are part of a dangerous mob of migrants threatening to surge into communities here.

But the caravan, which has shrunk from 7,000 people to less than 3,500, is still weeks away from reaching the United States. The rare use of the active-duty military to bolster Mr. Trump’s campaign message has intensified criticism that the president is using the military for political gain.

“This is using the troops as props,” said Jason Dempsey, who served as an Army infantry officer in Iraq and Afghanistan and is now an adjunct senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security. “We’re using a bunch of people to waste their time while they backstop the Border Patrol.”

The military buildup is the culmination of Mr. Trump’s efforts in recent weeks to appeal to his most fervent supporters and to focus the nation’s attention on the migrant caravan.

In an interview on Fox News late Monday, Mr. Trump said the caravan amounted to an invasion by “a lot of bad people” and gang members, and said the migrants are wasting their time because the troops will block their entry.

The president said his administration will build “tent cities” to indefinitely hold any migrants who try to seek asylum in the United States, in apparent defiance of court orders that prohibit long-term detention of children or families.

“We are going to put tents up all over the place,” Mr. Trump said during an interview on Monday night on “The Ingraham Angle.”

“We are not going to build structures and spend all of this, hundreds of millions of dollars,” he said. “We are going to have tents. They are going to be very nice, and if they don’t get asylum, they get out.”
EDITORS’ PICKS
Andy Warhol Said He Came From ‘Nowhere.’ This Is It.
Tracy K. Smith, America’s Poet Laureate, Is a Woman With a Mission
Marfa Road Trip: Thelma and Louise, With a Happier Ending

Mr. Trump has repeatedly cited reports on Fox News as evidence of the gathering threat, though even some commentators on Mr. Trump’s favorite television network have called into question the need for such an aggressive military response to the caravan.

“Tomorrow is one week before the election, which is what this is all about,” Shepard Smith, a Fox News anchor, said Monday on his show. “There is no invasion. No one is coming to get you. There is nothing at all to worry about.”

He added: “We’re America. We can handle it.”

Kevin Appleby, of the Center for Migration Studies, criticized Mr. Trump’s decision to send troops, saying it shows weakness instead of strength.

“The president’s deployment of the world’s strongest military against a band of vulnerable asylum seekers is embarrassing,” Mr. Appleby said.

But the president’s comments on Monday and the troop announcement made it clear that the White House would not be deterred from focusing on the caravan, even after the suspect in the killing of 11 Jews in Pittsburgh accused Jews of orchestrating the caravan to bring in “invaders” who would kill his people.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House press secretary, angrily rejected on Monday any link between the president’s messaging about the caravan and the killings on Saturday at the Tree of Life synagogue in Squirrel Hill, a community in Pittsburgh.

“The very first thing that the president did was condemn these heinous acts,” she said. “The very first thing the media did was blame the president.”
Sign Up for On Politics With Lisa Lerer

A spotlight on the people reshaping our politics. A conversation with voters across the country. And a guiding hand through the endless news cycle, telling you what you really need to know.

Mr. Trump has been considering options for several weeks, and is soon expected to take executive action to bar entry to Central Americans, including for those seeking asylum. The active-duty military units will join Border Patrol agents and National Guard troops that are already gathered along the border in Texas, Arizona and California.

Military and border officials said that an initial group of 800 soldiers is already heading to Texas from Fort Campbell and Fort Knox as part of what the Pentagon is calling Operation Faithful Patriot. Gen. Terrence J. O’Shaughnessy, the commander of the United States Northern Command, said those soldiers will be joined by several thousand more in an bid to harden the border.

“The president has made it clear that border security is national security,” General O’Shaughnessy said.

If the caravan follows the pattern of previous groups of migrants, it is likely to shrink even more substantially in the weeks ahead, leaving it dwarfed by the gathering of armed soldiers.

Military and border officials insisted on Monday that they view the caravan as a serious threat, and that there were signs that more migrant groups were forming.

“We’ve got to be prepared for the potential arrival of a very large group,” said Kevin K. McAleenan, the commissioner of Customs and Border Protection. “We will not allow a large group to enter the United States in an unsafe and unlawful manner.”

Mr. McAleenan described a surge in Border Patrol resources in recent days, with more than 1,000 extra agents flowing to the area, including those with tactical experience in countering riots. He said the Border Patrol has deployed Black Hawk helicopters and other equipment to respond quickly to the arrival of the migrants.

But he said the active-duty military is being deployed because the Border Patrol agents, supported by about 2,000 National Guard troops, might not be enough to repel the men, women and children marching toward the United States.

Once fully deployed, the active-duty troops will include engineers who can help erect physical barriers to hold back the migrants, officials said. There will also be helicopter and plane units to transport Border Patrol agents, medical support personnel and planning teams that will help coordinate the influx of forces.

General O’Shaughnessy said the new forces will be armed and will operate under the same legal authorities as the National Guard troops already on the border.

The Mexican-American war in the mid-1800s sent huge numbers of troops to the border, and the military maintained a presence there for decades. For more than 60 years, the United States military maintained outposts along the long border with Mexico, according to a military history of the border published by the Combat Studies Institute Press at Fort Leavenworth.

Mr. Trump’s decision to send military forces to the border is a rare use of the armed forces in the past four decades. In the late 1980s, the Defense Department sent active-duty military and reserve troops to the border as part of an effort to counter the flow of illegal drugs from Mexico. The military provided similar support services during that mission.

Since then, Mr. Trump’s predecessors have largely relied on southern governors to call out the National Guard in response to increases in the flow of immigrants, guns and drugs from Mexico into the United States.

Mr. Trump is poised to shatter that tradition by fully embracing the power of the military as both a show-of-force deterrence and a real-world amplification of the Border Patrol agents who already seek to prevent illegal immigration.

In a tweet last week — one of several in which he has embraced the military’s power — Mr. Trump blamed Democrats for failing to support tougher border laws. He vowed to use his power as commander in chief to respond to what he considers a grave threat to the United States.

“Brandon Judd of the National Border Patrol Council is right when he says on @foxandfriends that the Democrat inspired laws make it tough for us to stop people at the Border,” the president wrote.

In the meantime, he added: “I am bringing out the military for this National Emergency. They will be stopped!”

Julie Hirschfeld Davis contributed reporting.
I'll up that to 4,500 troops with nothing to do, but man are the patrol vehicle and the pool cars going to be sooo clean.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7429
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Zaune »

Ralin wrote: 2018-10-30 04:39amNot that I have much but contempt for most people who signed up for the US military in the past decade or so, but it occurs to me that actual soldiers are a whole lot less likely to open fire on refugees than the sort of hardcore true believer racist that works for ICE and Border Patrol these days. They have much better training and rules of engagement that are actually often enforced. Sends a bad message to deploy them, but I could easily believe that it will make things safer.
I think that's unduly harsh on the common soldier (many of them joined up because it's the only way up and out if you're no good at rap or American football and too proud to deal crack) but you're right about the rest.

I am decidedly not looking forward to what happens if Trump has a fit of temper and orders them to shoot on sight via Twitter, and someone has to explain to him that this is an unlawful order. Especially if even a single soldier decides to carry that order out no matter what his immediate superiors have to say on the subject.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Master
Posts: 1032
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Khaat »

Well, as has been pointed out the evil brown criminal Muslim-terrorist invaders asylum-seeking families traveling in a large group for mutual protection are thousands of miles from the US border and traveling mostly on foot. It will be more than a month before they're even close to legally applying for asylum at the US/Mexico border. This whole thing is an election-bolstering stunt staged for next week: "vote for us! The Democrats will be giving these criminals your house and white daughters if they win!"

And a repeat of a costly Obama effort to shore up mostly understaffed/equipped (due to graft, corruption, or negligent leadership?) border patrol enforcement with temporary "one thing we know is how to stand around with our dicks genitalia in our hands, sir!" military precision.
Zaune wrote:I am decidedly not looking forward to what happens if Trump has a fit of temper and orders them to shoot on sight via Twitter, and someone has to explain to him that this is an unlawful order. Especially if even a single soldier decides to carry that order out no matter what his immediate superiors have to say on the subject.
Trump will never explicitly give that order, he'll just stand behind the good ol' boy and support him when the military courts wind-up to slap his wrist.
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ralin wrote: 2018-10-30 04:39am Not that I have much but contempt for most people who signed up for the US military in the past decade or so, but it occurs to me that actual soldiers are a whole lot less likely to open fire on refugees than the sort of hardcore true believer racist that works for ICE and Border Patrol these days. They have much better training and rules of engagement that are actually often enforced. Sends a bad message to deploy them, but I could easily believe that it will make things safer.
True. But again, I suspect that this is more about having those troops pre-deployed ahead of any post-election day protests.

In which case, I guess we find out how seriously the average US soldier takes their oath of loyalty to the Constitution.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ralin »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-10-30 06:21pm True. But again, I suspect that this is more about having those troops pre-deployed ahead of any post-election day protests.

In which case, I guess we find out how seriously the average US soldier takes their oath of loyalty to the Constitution.
Not at all, I expect.

But the protest angle seems questionable. America's Tiananmen is coming, make no mistake, but unlike in China I don't think American police will be so reluctant to gun down crowds that they need to bring actual troops in.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I think there are good people in our law enforcement and military. Unfortunatley, there are also a lot of bad ones, and they are the ones who have Trump's support.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Galvatron »

I really like this guy. He reminds me of Richard Ojeda in that he's a level-headed plain-speaker who talks in a way that can penetrate the conservative wall of ignorance.

User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by madd0ct0r »

I like people writing out their arguments instead of posting youtube links.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Galvatron »

Writing out an argument doesn't always work so well with people who don't read. That goes for the president and a lot of his supporters who consume nothing but Fox News and YouTube clips of various right-wing shitbags.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Trump is now saying 15,000 troops- reportedly more than the US currently has in Afghanistan. To stop a few thousand unarmed asylum seekers, mostly women and children? For a mere campaign stunt? Or is this a flimsy pretext to move tens of thousands of troops into key Democratic and closely contested states right before Election Day, and the demonstrations that will inevitably follow regardless of outcome? The question seems absurd, or would in saner times, but I think that we have to seriously consider it now.

There is no rational reason for a government to deploy tens of thousands of active duty military on its own soil in peacetime, outside of a major natural disaster. This only makes sense as the set-up for a power grab.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22430
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Mr Bean »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-10-31 10:39pm Trump is now saying 15,000 troops- reportedly more than the US currently has in Afghanistan. To stop a few thousand unarmed asylum seekers, mostly women and children? For a mere campaign stunt? Or is this a flimsy pretext to move tens of thousands of troops into key Democratic and closely contested states right before Election Day, and the demonstrations that will inevitably follow regardless of outcome? The question seems absurd, or would in saner times, but I think that we have to seriously consider it now.

There is no rational reason for a government to deploy tens of thousands of active duty military on its own soil in peacetime, outside of a major natural disaster. This only makes sense as the set-up for a power grab.
Or hear me out here...
It's empty rhetoric, because the border is fairly Republican and after stating a sane number (800) he increased it to a few thousand and when things kept getting worse he increased it again to an even larger number.

I may blow your mind here, but sometimes Trump says things without any plan to actually be able to do that thing.

And maybe, just maybe consider for a second that the US Military is not in the habit of following orders blindly but hey let me quote the WSJ on this.

WSJ
WSJ wrote:Just last week officials were indicating that about 800 to 1,000 might be sent. On Monday, officials announced that about 5,200 were being deployed. The next day, the Air Force general running the operation said more than the initially announced total were going, and he pointedly rejected a news report that it could reach 14,000, saying that was “not consistent with what’s actually being planned.”

Gen. Terrence O’Shaughnessy, the commander of U.S. Northern Command, told reporters the number would exceed the initial contingent of 5,200, but he offered no estimate of the eventual total.

Just 24 hours later, Trump thrust new uncertainty into the picture, catching the Pentagon by surprise.

With his eyes squarely on next Tuesday’s contests, Trump has rushed a series of immigration declarations, promises and actions as he tries to mobilize supporters to retain Republican control of Congress. His own Republican campaign in 2016 concentrated on border fears, and that’s his focus in the final week of the midterm fight.

“As far as the caravan is concerned, our military is out,” Trump said. “We have about 5,800. We’ll go up to anywhere between 10,000 and 15,000 military personnel on top of Border Patrol, ICE and everybody else at the border.”
Time after time you accuse President Trump of being a liar, yet time after time you believe everything he says at face value and act accordingly.
I'm going to go out on wild speculation here but I'm pretty sure the deploying Troops to the border is red meat for his base and he does not intend to actually do anything for the simple fact any troops over a thousand or two is going to require at least a week of pre-planning for something as simple as securing housing and food for the troops. Due to the many laws Congress has passed on the Pentagon they can't just load up troops and head to the border because once there they can't simply set up camp anywhere nor can the break out the foraging parties. Food, fuel, housing and materials must be pre-staged and because of anti-corruption laws and the procurement system it takes awhile to get that stuff set up.

Or to put it another way, if Donald Trump wants 15,000 troops along the border he can have four soldiers every kilometer in a month or two, or a few thousand in border population areas in a month, or he can have one big blob of troops somewhere on the border by election day, but it won't be 15,000 and it won't be doing much of anything.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ralin »

Mr Bean wrote: 2018-11-01 07:03am I'm going to go out on wild speculation here but I'm pretty sure the deploying Troops to the border is red meat for his base and he does not intend to actually do anything for the simple fact any troops over a thousand or two is going to require at least a week of pre-planning for something as simple as securing housing and food for the troops.
I mean, that's true but I think that Trump ordering whoever is in charge of said troops to make it happen, no really you have to or else that's an order requires roughly the same amount of effort on Trump's part as saying he's going to do it and then not doing it.

Due to the many laws Congress has passed on the Pentagon they can't just load up troops and head to the border because once there they can't simply set up camp anywhere nor can the break out the foraging parties. Food, fuel, housing and materials must be pre-staged and because of anti-corruption laws and the procurement system it takes awhile to get that stuff set up.
Why are you assuming that Trump will follow laws or that the Pentagon will do so if Trump orders them not to?
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22430
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Mr Bean »

Ralin wrote: 2018-11-01 07:36am

Why are you assuming that Trump will follow laws or that the Pentagon will do so if Trump orders them not to?
Because Trump has literally nothing to do with the deployment of troops, that's 100% the Pentagon and the people in the Pentagon had to spent at least ten years of kissing ass to get to their current jobs. Every single want of them to go higher and violating anti-corruption law will likely end said careers?

The Pentagon, the famous American black hole of bureaucracy when dreams and plans go to wait in limbo until the next administration when they can safely add those projects onto their resumes without having to actually do them. Your telling the Pentagon is going to sir yes sir THIS President and ignore fifty plus years worth of red tape Congress has been adding on them and just do something ignoring all of that?

In order to deploy 15,000 troops to the border in a super short time span you need at least 40 separate Pentagon bureaucrats to ignore those same laws I mentioned in putting out contracts, putting in requests to picking the units involved.

This after all the same week the President declared the Consitution can be charged by executive order.

Maybe... again just maybe in some possible way, Donald Trump did not think about any of this and just ordered it having no idea it's not going to happen in time for Thanksigving let alone the election?

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Khaat
Jedi Master
Posts: 1032
Joined: 2008-11-04 11:42am

Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Khaat »

I am actually more concerned with the "militias" self-deploying to the border: they are 1000x more likely to decide they're "defending the fatherland" and shoot some asylum-seekers. Biggest hope is that the professionals are on hand to keep them from more harm than merely obstruction of border patrol operations.
Rule #1: Believe the autocrat. He means what he says.
Rule #2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule #3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule #4: Be outraged.
Rule #5: Don’t make compromises.
Post Reply