Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-22 05:55pm

They've arrived.
It took us just 10 minutes to cross the border from the US to Mexico. And four and half hours to cross back.

That was doing it officially, with all the right paperwork, and without being in the crosshairs of Donald Trump’s immigration policy.

What hope then for those who have travelled across Central America hoping that journeying en masse would highlight their desperation and force the US authorities to allow them in?

This caravan of the desperate and aspirational has been on the move for over a month. Their journeys began predominantly in Honduras and El Salvador, spurred on by poverty and violence.

That hope is tested now in a makeshift camp in Tijuana on the Mexico/US border, where from beneath old blankets, bits of tarpaulin or battered tents, 4,000 are camped out just a few metres from the land they seek.

In reality a geographical closeness is all they have. Such is the US’s determination to keep them out they are a very long way from the American dream.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 07:03pm

What kind of broken soul do you have to have to see children sleeping on the ground with nothing but a blanket (if they're lucky) as an invading army posing an existential threat to your country?
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-11-22 09:22pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-22 07:03pm
What kind of broken soul do you have to have to see children sleeping on the ground with nothing but a blanket (if they're lucky) as an invading army posing an existential threat to your country?
Joe Average American in 2018.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-22 10:12pm

I'm... pretty sure that polls have shown the majority of Americans to be against at least the more extreme of Trump's border policies (like family separation and caging children), but not enough to make stopping it a defining issue for the Left in the way that supporting it is for the Right.

What was that quote? The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing?
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-11-23 05:40am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-22 10:12pm
I'm... pretty sure that polls have shown the majority of Americans to be against at least the more extreme of Trump's border policies (like family separation and caging children), but not enough to make stopping it a defining issue for the Left in the way that supporting it is for the Right.

What was that quote? The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing?
Attributed to Edmund Burke, and that's what I meant.. A minority perpetrated these actions, while the majority either sits on their hands and says "duh, okay," or wrings their hands and accepts it anyway.

For example, the attacks on the press. Back in the early 2000s, a poll showed many Americans thought freedom of the press went too far, and here we are in the happy year if 2018 acting surprisedm or worse, indifferent, when Trump and an empowered minority are shrieking "fake news" every time we turn around.

At the same time we act surprised that this reporter ended up in ICE detention, this reporter had his press pass pulled, and this reporter got tuned up and carved up by the goons of a dictatorship America loves so goddamned much.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-23 06:42am

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-11-23 05:40am
For example, the attacks on the press. Back in the early 2000s, a poll showed many Americans thought freedom of the press went too far, and here we are in the happy year if 2018 acting surprised or worse, indifferent, when Trump and an empowered minority are shrieking "fake news" every time we turn around.
I would hope that this wasn't what those Americans had in mind. I think freedom of the press really has gone too far if it includes the freedom to be wilfully dishonest in order to push a political agenda.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-23 06:30pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-11-23 06:42am
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-11-23 05:40am
For example, the attacks on the press. Back in the early 2000s, a poll showed many Americans thought freedom of the press went too far, and here we are in the happy year if 2018 acting surprised or worse, indifferent, when Trump and an empowered minority are shrieking "fake news" every time we turn around.
I would hope that this wasn't what those Americans had in mind. I think freedom of the press really has gone too far if it includes the freedom to be wilfully dishonest in order to push a political agenda.
Based on the timeframe given, it might be one of the US' "saying bad things about America helps the terrorists!" phases.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 07:38pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-11-23 06:42am
U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-11-23 05:40am
For example, the attacks on the press. Back in the early 2000s, a poll showed many Americans thought freedom of the press went too far, and here we are in the happy year if 2018 acting surprised or worse, indifferent, when Trump and an empowered minority are shrieking "fake news" every time we turn around.
I would hope that this wasn't what those Americans had in mind. I think freedom of the press really has gone too far if it includes the freedom to be wilfully dishonest in order to push a political agenda.
The problem with banning dishonesty is how do you possibly prove such a charge? Some cases might be clear-cut, but it would usually be very difficult, I'd imagine. How do you differentiate between an unusual or absurd but sincerely-held position, and a lie? What about a situation where a politician changes their position due to new information or circumstances, and is then accused of lying and "flip-flopping"?

Banning political dishonesty is a short slippery slope to banning any political speech those in power don't like.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Batman » 2018-11-23 08:14pm

I don't see the problem. Just don't let journalists report things they know are not true. Opinion pieces are one thing but when the press reports as fact stuff that never actually happened a line has been breached.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-23 08:23pm

No one here has posted it yet, so I will:

CNN
Trump says troops on US border can use 'lethal force,' threatens to close border
By Kate Sullivan, CNN

Updated 6:54 PM ET, Thu November 22, 2018
Judge bars Trump administration's asylum rules
Pause
MuteMute
Current Time 0:04
/
Duration Time 0:44


FullscreenNow Playing Judge bars Trump...
Source: CNN

Judge bars Trump administration's asylum rules 00:44
(CNN)President Donald Trump said Thursday he has authorized American troops on the US-Mexico border to "use lethal force" if necessary against an approaching group of migrants while also threatening to close "the whole border."

Trump, who was speaking with military members and reporters at Mar-a-Lago, also said there "certainly could" be a government shutdown over border wall funding in December.
"If they have to, they're going to use lethal force. I've given the OK," Trump said. "If they have to -- I hope they don't have to."
"I have no choice," Trump said, and, without providing evidence, added, "You're dealing with a minimum of 500 serious criminals" and "rough people."
Trump politicizes Thanksgiving call with troops to attack migrants, judges
Trump politicizes Thanksgiving call with troops to attack migrants, judges
Earlier this week, Trump approved a memorandum that granted new authority to troops on the border to protect Customs and Border Protection personnel from migrants if they engage in violence. Until the new authority was granted, troops were not allowed to intervene if CBP personnel came under attack unless they needed to act in their own self-defense.
Trump has sent nearly 6,000 troops to the US-Mexico border to protect against a group of migrants coming through Mexico from Central America. Many of the migrants have said they are seeking asylum and fleeing gang violence and persecution in their home countries. Trump ordered the deployment shortly before the midterm elections, when Trump was making the fight against illegal immigration a central part of his pitch for Republicans seeking office.
Defense Secretary James Mattis said Wednesday "there has been no call for any lethal force from (the Department of Homeland Security)," saying that any troops backing up customs personnel would not be carrying firearms but could be equipped with shields and batons.
Trump calls 9th Circuit a 'big thorn in our side,' accuses judges of imperiling US security
Trump calls 9th Circuit a 'big thorn in our side,' accuses judges of imperiling US security
Trump on Thursday also said "two days ago we closed the border," and added, "nobody's coming in."
He was apparently referring to Monday's temporary closure of all northbound vehicle traffic at the nation's busiest port of entry, San Ysidro. CBP said the lanes were closed to install jersey barriers and concertina wire and "to prepare for the potential arrival of thousands of people migrating in a caravan heading towards the border of the United States."
The President said "if we find that it's uncontrollable" or it gets to a point where "our people are going to start getting hurt, we will close entry into the country for a period of time until we can get it under control."
"The whole border. I mean the whole border," Trump said.
"When they lose control of the border on the Mexico side, we just close the border," Trump said, further explaining that means Mexico will "not be able to sell their cars into the United States."
Thursday evening, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo reiterated the administration's position that the group will not be allowed to cross into the US.
"The caravans will not be permitted to enter the United States," Pompeo said in a statement. "There are real dangers to the safety and human rights of migrants from those who would prey on them."
CNN's Matthew Hoye contributed to this report.
In short, if we close the US border, Trump is authorizing lethal force.

The question becomes, will we reach this step?
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2018-11-23 09:26pm

I have exactly zero cause to believe America is exceptional enough to not see a substantial chunk of the military use lethal force on unarmed innocents. Quite the opposite, in fact. Our record is replete with examples of the military massacring innocents.

So, uh, not gonna be shocked if refugees get mowed down should nobody slap down Donny.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 10:45pm

Batman wrote:
2018-11-23 08:14pm
I don't see the problem. Just don't let journalists report things they know are not true. Opinion pieces are one thing but when the press reports as fact stuff that never actually happened a line has been breached.
Simpler said than done.

Ban reporting of things that never happened, you say? Okay, depending on what you believe, its now illegal to express religious beliefs on air.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 10:46pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-23 08:23pm
No one here has posted it yet, so I will:

CNN
Trump says troops on US border can use 'lethal force,' threatens to close border
By Kate Sullivan, CNN

Updated 6:54 PM ET, Thu November 22, 2018
Judge bars Trump administration's asylum rules
Pause
MuteMute
Current Time 0:04
/
Duration Time 0:44


FullscreenNow Playing Judge bars Trump...
Source: CNN

Judge bars Trump administration's asylum rules 00:44
(CNN)President Donald Trump said Thursday he has authorized American troops on the US-Mexico border to "use lethal force" if necessary against an approaching group of migrants while also threatening to close "the whole border."

Trump, who was speaking with military members and reporters at Mar-a-Lago, also said there "certainly could" be a government shutdown over border wall funding in December.
"If they have to, they're going to use lethal force. I've given the OK," Trump said. "If they have to -- I hope they don't have to."
"I have no choice," Trump said, and, without providing evidence, added, "You're dealing with a minimum of 500 serious criminals" and "rough people."
Trump politicizes Thanksgiving call with troops to attack migrants, judges
Trump politicizes Thanksgiving call with troops to attack migrants, judges
Earlier this week, Trump approved a memorandum that granted new authority to troops on the border to protect Customs and Border Protection personnel from migrants if they engage in violence. Until the new authority was granted, troops were not allowed to intervene if CBP personnel came under attack unless they needed to act in their own self-defense.
Trump has sent nearly 6,000 troops to the US-Mexico border to protect against a group of migrants coming through Mexico from Central America. Many of the migrants have said they are seeking asylum and fleeing gang violence and persecution in their home countries. Trump ordered the deployment shortly before the midterm elections, when Trump was making the fight against illegal immigration a central part of his pitch for Republicans seeking office.
Defense Secretary James Mattis said Wednesday "there has been no call for any lethal force from (the Department of Homeland Security)," saying that any troops backing up customs personnel would not be carrying firearms but could be equipped with shields and batons.
Trump calls 9th Circuit a 'big thorn in our side,' accuses judges of imperiling US security
Trump calls 9th Circuit a 'big thorn in our side,' accuses judges of imperiling US security
Trump on Thursday also said "two days ago we closed the border," and added, "nobody's coming in."
He was apparently referring to Monday's temporary closure of all northbound vehicle traffic at the nation's busiest port of entry, San Ysidro. CBP said the lanes were closed to install jersey barriers and concertina wire and "to prepare for the potential arrival of thousands of people migrating in a caravan heading towards the border of the United States."
The President said "if we find that it's uncontrollable" or it gets to a point where "our people are going to start getting hurt, we will close entry into the country for a period of time until we can get it under control."
"The whole border. I mean the whole border," Trump said.
"When they lose control of the border on the Mexico side, we just close the border," Trump said, further explaining that means Mexico will "not be able to sell their cars into the United States."
Thursday evening, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo reiterated the administration's position that the group will not be allowed to cross into the US.
"The caravans will not be permitted to enter the United States," Pompeo said in a statement. "There are real dangers to the safety and human rights of migrants from those who would prey on them."
CNN's Matthew Hoye contributed to this report.
In short, if we close the US border, Trump is authorizing lethal force.

The question becomes, will we reach this step?
If US troops, acting on the President's orders, fire on unarmed refugees and are not prosecuted for doing so, I think that would be a red line, where people have to decide whether they will submit to fascism, or take to the streets against it.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Batman » 2018-11-23 11:39pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-23 10:45pm
Batman wrote:
2018-11-23 08:14pm
I don't see the problem. Just don't let journalists report things they know are not true. Opinion pieces are one thing but when the press reports as fact stuff that never actually happened a line has been breached.
Simpler said than done.
Ban reporting of things that never happened, you say? Okay, depending on what you believe, its now illegal to express religious beliefs on air.
No. You can believe whatever the hell you want. You can claim that you think that's what happened. What you don't get to claim is that's what actually happened unless you have pretty convincing evidence
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 11:43pm

You think that there's an easily-discernible line, easily-definable in law, between what is truth and what is a lie, which could not be easily abused to censor merely unpopular speech, as opposed to false speech.

That's just adorable.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Batman » 2018-11-23 11:53pm

In law or how the truth is represented? I wish that were true. I was merely talking about truth as the things that actually happened
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-24 08:28am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-23 07:38pm
The problem with banning dishonesty is how do you possibly prove such a charge? Some cases might be clear-cut, but it would usually be very difficult, I'd imagine. How do you differentiate between an unusual or absurd but sincerely-held position, and a lie? What about a situation where a politician changes their position due to new information or circumstances, and is then accused of lying and "flip-flopping"?

Banning political dishonesty is a short slippery slope to banning any political speech those in power don't like.
Undoubtedly. But allowing news media to distort, selectively quote or in extreme cases outright fabricate sources to support whatever ideological axe their editor or CEO has to grind isn't an acceptable state of affairs either; if the press aren't held to some minimum standard of factual accuracy then it's impossible to make an informed choice about anything and elections end up decided by who hired the best ad agency.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ralin » 2018-11-24 08:57am

Zaune wrote:
2018-11-24 08:28am
Undoubtedly. But allowing news media to distort, selectively quote or in extreme cases outright fabricate sources to support whatever ideological axe their editor or CEO has to grind isn't an acceptable state of affairs either; if the press aren't held to some minimum standard of factual accuracy then it's impossible to make an informed choice about anything and elections end up decided by who hired the best ad agency.
That sort of thing would fall under libel and slander laws. We have them in the US but they're notoriously poorly enforced.

That's generally considered a bad thing, but the most prominent person I've heard call for tightening them up in recent years is Donald Trump. That should probably give you pause.

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-24 01:45pm

Ralin wrote:
2018-11-24 08:57am
That sort of thing would fall under libel and slander laws. We have them in the US but they're notoriously poorly enforced.

That's generally considered a bad thing, but the most prominent person I've heard call for tightening them up in recent years is Donald Trump. That should probably give you pause.
Edging into "Hitler Ate Sugar" territory there. Disagreeing with something just because someone you hate supports it is as intellectually lazy as agreeing with everything said by someone you idolise.

Besides, I don't think libel/slander lawsuits are the optimal solution anyway; that puts the onus on the victim to bring suit, which they may not be in a financial position to do. I think the simplest and fairest solution would be to expand the Federal Trade Commission's truth-in-advertising standards to news reporting. After all, a news report "must be truthful, cannot be deceptive or unfair, and must be evidence-based" or else promoting it as news is false advertising in itself, is it not?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by Ralin » 2018-11-24 04:45pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-11-24 01:45pm
Edging into "Hitler Ate Sugar" territory there. Disagreeing with something just because someone you hate supports it is as intellectually lazy as agreeing with everything said by someone you idolise.
Eh, I mean Trump wants to do it pretty explicitly so he can punish and intimidate reporters who publish bad things about him. So it's less 'Hitler ate sugar' and more 'Hitler wants this to happen because it will make it easier to go after his (((enemies)))'

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-25 06:03pm

Migrant caravan attempts storming Mexico-US border as tear gas fired and helicopters scrambled.
Tensions at the Mexico-US border have almost reached boiling point after hundreds of migrants pushed past police and scrambled towards the crossing.

Several hundred of the migrants, part of a caravan from Honduras, tried getting past a blockade of Mexican police at the border between Tijuana and California.

ITV News Correspondent Emma Murphy witnessed as groups made their way to the border fence, shouting "yes we can" on Sunday.
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-25 07:20pm

This will now be treated as a military invasion in Right-wing media, used to justify further troop deployments and the authorization of lethal force.

If US troops, acting on orders from the government, fire on civilians on the border, then we will face a choice as a nation: either the perpetrators will be swiftly held accountable by law and steps swiftly taken to ensure that such a crime does not happen again, or, far more likely, we will have to recognize that the US is now run by a fascist regime waging a campaign of mass murder against racial minorities, with all that that entails.
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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-25 09:06pm

When I heard that a bunch of them made a run for the border, I was sure the shit had just hit the fan and that bloodshed was going to follow, however that seems to have been averted this time at least.
More than 5,000 migrants have been camped in and around a sports complex in Tijuana after making their way through Mexico in recent weeks.

Many hope to apply for asylum in the US, but agents at the San Ysidro entry point are processing fewer than 100 asylum petitions a day.
Assuming that the rate stays where it is and that the 5,000 is the complete group, it'll still take a couple of months to process them all. Whether they're actually admitted or not is another question entirely, as well as what happens to those who are denied entry.
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Der Fuhrer deploys 800 soldiers to the border to "stop the caravan".

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 02:35am

The orange scrotum has announced that he is authorizing troops to use lethal force if necessary to protect border agents.

You know, I can't help but think that the renewed focus on this is due at least in part to the fact that Mueller is expected to make a report soon- Trump is trying to engineer a crisis.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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