Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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FireNexus
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by FireNexus »

Civil War Man wrote: 2018-09-19 11:26amOn a similar note, Mike Judge, the man she named as witness to the assault, has come out with a statement denying that the event took place, but he will under absolutely no circumstances be willing to testify to that under oath.
Mark Judge. Mike Judge is a writer, producer, and animator that has never (to my knowledge) been associated with advocating rape or rapist judicial nominees.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Vendetta »

Ralin wrote: 2018-09-18 06:17pm Nah. What’s evil is voting for a fucking fascist because he promised to get rid of all the Mexicans and send refugees away to die so that the secret ISIS infiltrators won’t get in. What’s evil is setting up literal concentration camps for kids and trying to turn people with unwanted pregnancies into unwilling brood mares on the pretext that their fetus matters more than them.
Again though. Those people think those things because authoritative sounding people have told them what to think and they have not learned to check facts for themselves. If you discard the idea of checking facts for yourself before rendering judgement, you are them.
Again you act as if this is some value neutral debating club. All of those things you just described are lies. By contrast we know that most rapists get away with it and that the GOP has a history of condoning and promoting predators. I don’t believe Kavanaugh is a rapist because of the ~authority~ of the person who accused him, I believe it because one of his victims says he did it and that’s all the proof I or anyone else should need unless it’s proven she’s lying. Victims should be trusted over rapists.
Without physical evidence, a court is necessary to determine if there is even a victim. Human memory is fucking awful at getting things right even in the short term, and there are many cases of memories of traumatic incidents like child abuse being completely confabulated even where the person relating them absolutely believes them to be true. The events Ford claim might have taken place as she describes them, they might have taken place but the perpetrator was someone else, or she may sincerely believe they happened to her but they did not.
It is a definitely true thing that happened and I and everyone else should treat it as such until the unlikely event that it is proven otherwise. You keep talking about investigations and ‘criminal matters’ as if we don’t know that there’s no chance in hell he’ll ever go to prison for it.
No, it is a claim that is in contention and should be honestly and thoroughly investigated to find out if it is true.
Your idea of critical thinking has led you to tripping over yourself to make excuses for a rapist from the misogynistic fascist party who was being elected in the hopes of turning women with unwanted pregnancies into unwilling brood mares even before we knew he was a predator himself. It hasn’t shielded you from a damned thing you fucking quisling.
Who's making excuses? I'm saying that Kavanaugh should be the subject of a criminal investigation because that's what happens to suspected rapists. That's how society works, when people are accused of things they are suspects, they are not yet guilty.
Nope. When someone tells you that someone raped them you should proceed under the assumption that it’s true. Being ‘fair’ to a rapist is not more important than doing right by their victims. The fact that you think otherwise speaks volumes about your priorities.
No, being fair to people who aren't rapists is more important than letting one go. Better a dozen guilty people walk free than an innocent be hanged. That's how justice works. Any deviation from it is a step down the path to exactly the fascism you accuse your ideological opponents of.

You cannot fight fascism with authoritarian posturing, you can only fight it by enforcing fair and even justice and generating a society in which the merits of fair and even justice are placed first at all times.
Again with the debate club bullshit. A whole bunch of people get raped and people who say they were raped are usually telling the truth. There’s nothing extraordinary a victim saying they were raped, doubly so when it comes to a GOP member and Trump appointee.
And they should be investigated as criminal matters. Which includes the presumption of innocence and not declaring people guilty at the moment of accusation. That's why, for instance, Harvey Weinstein is being investigated as a rapist and George Takei is not. (But in your world, he's a rapist because he was accused).
No I’m not, because Kavanaugh really was accused of rape by one of his victims and he really is being nominated by the rapist president of the misogynistic fascist party. This is not the same as whatever they were making up about Clinton a couple years ago.
And Clinton really was accused of mishandling classified material. She was investigated for it by the FBI for quite a long time. That's how it works, people who are accused of things are investigated and until the investigation can show that they did it you treat them as if they didn't.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Beowulf wrote: 2018-09-19 10:09am My understanding is: this accusation is unfalsifiable. What's been laid out is that she doesn't remember when or where it occurred. There's some therapist's notes, to support that it happened, with the notes predating Trump's presidency, but no name is actually in the notes. It could become falsifiable, and therefore something we can actually have an opinion about, if there's a place and date associated with this. But right now we have an accuser, an accused, and a guy who spent most of high school black out drunk. We can't even tell if the accuser and accused where actually in the same room alone at any time, from what we know at this time.
To counter that, see Civil War Man's points. Also, I would argue the fact that she previously discussed this with a therapist years ago at least suggests that this is not something she made up just to smear Kavanaugh, that the fact that she originally sought anonymity (and, like many sexual assault victims, has apparently faced a torrent of death threats and other abuse for speaking up) weighs against her making up the story for personal gain, and that the presence of a third potential witness (alcoholic or not) who suspiciously refuses to testify under oath provides the possibility of further corroboration.

Is Kavanaugh going to see the inside of a jail cell on what we currently have? No, nor should he. But is it enough to warrant taking this very seriously, and enough to sink his nomination in any sane world? Hell yes.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Beowulf »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-09-19 08:42pm
Beowulf wrote: 2018-09-19 10:09am My understanding is: this accusation is unfalsifiable. What's been laid out is that she doesn't remember when or where it occurred. There's some therapist's notes, to support that it happened, with the notes predating Trump's presidency, but no name is actually in the notes. It could become falsifiable, and therefore something we can actually have an opinion about, if there's a place and date associated with this. But right now we have an accuser, an accused, and a guy who spent most of high school black out drunk. We can't even tell if the accuser and accused where actually in the same room alone at any time, from what we know at this time.
To counter that, see Civil War Man's points. Also, I would argue the fact that she previously discussed this with a therapist years ago at least suggests that this is not something she made up just to smear Kavanaugh, that the fact that she originally sought anonymity (and, like many sexual assault victims, has apparently faced a torrent of death threats and other abuse for speaking up) weighs against her making up the story for personal gain, and that the presence of a third potential witness (alcoholic or not) who suspiciously refuses to testify under oath provides the possibility of further corroboration.

Is Kavanaugh going to see the inside of a jail cell on what we currently have? No, nor should he. But is it enough to warrant taking this very seriously, and enough to sink his nomination in any sane world? Hell yes.
I'm not disputing that this accusation may become falsifiable in the future (if new information comes to light). But the therapist's notes as disclosed do not name anyone. It's evidence that something happened, but it's not nearly enough for any real action except more investigation. She may have decided derailing the nomination is worth the cost, and using trauma from her past to do so. She might not remember it correctly any more (it was decades ago, and eye witnesses are much worse than is commonly assumed at remembering details). Or it may actually be entirely true.

The third party in the room, according to the accusation, was drunk. He has previously claimed that he frequently got blackout drunk. He's not much of a witness, and he knows it.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Elfdart »

Esquire wrote: 2018-09-14 09:22pm Your initial position, as I understand it, is basically ' The Republicans, being underhanded people, are doing some slightly underhanded things and winning because of it. Therefore, we should also do those underhanded things, to return to parity.' Is that fair?

The obvious next iteration, played out again and again in every competitive field, is for those dastardly Republicans to do something even more underhanded. At which point this repeats, ad infinitum, until everything good and potentially-beneficial has been sacrificed on the altar of competitive efficiency. That's the race to the bottom I'm talking about, and any time you suggest using underhanded means 'just this once,' yes, you absolutely do need to address it.

EDIT: Spelling. Besides where because should have been in first paragraph; stupid phone autocorrect.
Oh for fuck's sake!

No one is asking for Democrats to do things unethical, illegal or immoral. Bringing up the woman who claims she was almost raped by Kavanaugh and his buddy when she was fifteen is not dirty unless they have reason to believe she's lying. As for other proposed remedies for the courts being packed with party hacks, corporate shills, racists and outright fascists, I have yet to see any that are morally or legally questionable. Quite the opposite.

Or as Harry Truman used to say "If they insist on lying about me, I'll just have to tell the truth about them."

What I find most damning about this case is how Kavanaugh's defenders in the media apparently think he did it. They've dropped the "She's lying" line and are now on the "He was just a teenager" line.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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A third witness name by the accuser, her own lifelong female friend, has denied under oath that she has anyknowledge of the alleged attack or even the party itself having taken place.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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You might save yourself some embarrassment if you actually read the article:
In a brief interview at her home in Silver Spring, Keyser said that she did not recall the party, but that she was close friends with Ford and that she believes Ford’s allegation.

Before her name became public, Ford told The Post she did not think Keyser would remember the party because nothing remarkable had happened there, as far as Keyser was aware. Ford has said she did not tell anyone about the alleged assault until 2012.
You are one dumb twat.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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Nothing you said invalidates the accuracy of my statement. That she believes her is irrelevant, that she under oath denied knowing anything material to the allegation when she was specifically named by the accuser as having been there is all that matters. And this witness is obviously sympathetic to her, so there is motive to lie about it.

Oh yeah TWAT!
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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Late edit: She DOES NOT have motive to lie about it.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Patroklos wrote: 2018-09-23 01:18pm that she under oath denied knowing anything material to the allegation when she was specifically named by the accuser as having been there is all that matters.
The accuser ALSO said very specifically that she didn't think Keyser would have known anything about what happened, because Ford did not tell her what had happened at that party, because she did not come out about this until 2012.

So trying to spin this the way you are IS acting like a twat. You are acting like this somehow undermines any of Ford's claims, which is patently ridiculous. I mean, Ford basically said, "Hey, this girl was at this party, but I doubt she remembers because she didn't know anything crazy had happned at that party", and you are strutting around crowing "BUT SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER THE PARTY LOL FORD'S A LIAR."

So, yes, your statement WAS inaccurate, insofar as you deliberately left out pertinent details in order to make the implications seem different than they actually are. Being weaselly about the fact that you didn't explicitly tell a lie doesn't change the fact that you are being dishonest by omission.

So, yes, you are a twat.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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Everyone favorite celebrity lawyer Michael Avenatti says he has woman number two who can testify to Kavanaugh
Axios wrote: Michael Avenatti, an apparent 2020 presidential hopeful and the lawyer known for representing Stormy Daniels, tweeted Sunday night that he represents "a woman with credible information regarding Judge [Brett] Kavanaugh and Mark Judge."
"I represent a woman with credible information regarding Judge Kavanaugh and Mark Judge. We will be demanding the opportunity to present testimony to the committee and will likewise be demanding that Judge and others be subpoenaed to testify. The nomination must be withdrawn."

The big picture: Avenatti's tweet comes as Washington gears up for a planned Thursday hearing featuring Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford, the woman who accused President Trump's Supreme Court nominee of sexual assault in the 1980s, and a Ronan Farrow report in the New Yorker about another alleged instance of Kavanaugh's sexual misconduct.
Specifically Avenatti has stated in other tweets that the person he's representing was during Kavanaugh's college years.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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Mr Bean wrote: 2018-09-23 08:36pm Everyone favorite celebrity lawyer Michael Avenatti says he has woman number two who can testify to Kavanaugh
Axios wrote: Michael Avenatti, an apparent 2020 presidential hopeful and the lawyer known for representing Stormy Daniels, tweeted Sunday night that he represents "a woman with credible information regarding Judge [Brett] Kavanaugh and Mark Judge."
"I represent a woman with credible information regarding Judge Kavanaugh and Mark Judge. We will be demanding the opportunity to present testimony to the committee and will likewise be demanding that Judge and others be subpoenaed to testify. The nomination must be withdrawn."

The big picture: Avenatti's tweet comes as Washington gears up for a planned Thursday hearing featuring Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford, the woman who accused President Trump's Supreme Court nominee of sexual assault in the 1980s, and a Ronan Farrow report in the New Yorker about another alleged instance of Kavanaugh's sexual misconduct.
Specifically Avenatti has stated in other tweets that the person he's representing was during Kavanaugh's college years.
Think she could have found a less partisan lawyer to represent her? Hillary Clinton, perhaps?
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Mr Bean »

Beowulf wrote: 2018-09-24 02:50pm

Think she could have found a less partisan lawyer to represent her? Hillary Clinton, perhaps?
To be fair considering how well Stormy Daniels has done since hiring Avenatti he does come very well recommended.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yeah, I'm pretty much of the view that Avenatti is an effective lawyer and an asshole (since he is pretty blatantly using the cause of the women he represents as a springboard for his presidential ambitions).

Anyway, multiple accusers gives this even more weight. While it may not be enough to convict in a court of law, for court of public opinion purposes (and Supreme Court nominations purposes) I think we can pretty safely say that Kavanaugh committed sexual assault.

With reports that Flake may be a no vote, we just need to flip one more Republican, potentially, to block this fucker. Please spare a couple minutes to call Murkowski and Collins' offices before the vote.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Not to burst your bubble specifically, but just convincing a few Republicans to vote no only matters if all of the Democrats also vote no on him. And considering there were turncoat Democrats for the last SC nominee I'm not terribly optimistic.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

True, but you also have to remember that Gorsuch was back in the days when some Dems were still (stupidly, in my opinion) saying "Let's give Trump a chance and try to work with him." Not right before the Midterm elections. Now, some Dems in red states might make the calculus that they'll lose votes if they oppose Kavanaugh. But the argument could also be made that it will hurt them more with turnout from the base than it will gain them. So: don't just lobby Murkowski, Collins, and Flake. Lobby those Dems, and make it clear what the Dem voting base expects of them. I plan to make some calls to that effect this afternoon.

Also, as odious as Gorsuch was, he did not have multiple sexual assault allegations against him, was not fundamentally changing the previous balance of the Court (since he was replacing Scalia), and was not being pretty obviously appointed for the express purpose of placing the President above the law.

Also, among Republicans, Murkowski is at least expressing support for an FBI investigation, and Collins and Flake are considered (perhaps optimistically) maybes. It would be one thing to be a Dem and vote for Kavanaugh when his appointment was assured regardless. It would be another if there were one or more Republicans going against him, and if it would potentially mean being the Democrat who cast the deciding vote to put Kavanaugh on the Court.

I'm not saying Kavanaugh will be blocked, but it is at least within the realms of reasonable possibility, which I'm not sure was the case a week ago. And I sure as hell don't want to see him get on because too many voters said "well, he's going to get on anyway" and didn't lobby the swing votes because they conceded the battle prematurely. If he gets on, it should at least be clear, going into the Midterms, that it was against the will of the American people.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by houser2112 »

I've been reading a lot about the calculus of how each senator could vote and I'm seeing a lot of things like how the red state Democrats up for re-election in this year's midterms (Heitkamp, Manchin, Donnelly) have to weigh how the midterms could affect their vote or how they can't be the deciding vote for Kavanaugh, but if Collins or Murkowski vote yes it gives them room to vote yes too to appease their republican constituents, and blah blah blah.

My question is: how are the votes for such a confirmation such as this tabulated? Is it secret until all votes are in? Do they go around the room and say "yea" or "nay"? In what order?
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Called Senators Corker, Collins, Murkowski, and Flake, as well as some of the Dems. I couldn't reach all the Dems though- some of their phone boxes were full. That's concerning, if the Dems are being subjected to more aggressive lobbying than the Republicans.

I watched some of the hearings today. I missed Ford's testimony, but was not much impressed by Kavanaugh's, and I was disgusted by the Republicans defending him (the cock from Texas-not Cruz, the other one-actually had the gall to compare the fact that they are conducting minimal investigations of sexual assault allegations at all to the McCarthy hearings).

Also, Trump has put off the meeting with Rosenstein to next week, ostensibly due to the hearing.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

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With all the media attention on it, and the nature of the accusations, it's going to hurt Senator X to vote for Kavenaugh. They guys is negative numbers in all categories. Especially women. Some GOPers can eat that loss, but a lot can't. If Cruz loses most women on election, he's done. If it carries over with Flakes GOPer replacement, a Dem might win Arizona.

This is a huge trap for Republicans.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Elheru Aran »

yup... given all the negative press... you'd have to be completely disconnected to not be aware that this guy looks at least kinda bad at the moment. Even leaving aside the sexual allegations, there's the whole perjury thing, and his finances look really, really sketchy (apparently he put down a cash payment on his house or something, that was greater than his financial value at the moment)... but everybody's looking at the sexual allegations right now. The GOP has to be aware that this is downright toxic right now, and either they bite the bullet and go for it because Trump, suffering the consequences, or they cut him loose and weather whatever fury Trump may pile upon them. Either way, they have to know that they don't have many good solutions at the moment.

This is assuming, of course, that they're going to be *sensible*. That may be a problem.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Raj Ahten »

The true colors of Kavanaugh were certainly revealed today and I'm not talking about the sexual assault testimony. His response is certainly telling. He goes on a diatribe spinning a tale about left wing conspiracies out to get him. So much for any pretext of being an impartial arbiter. Taking the high road he did not. He played to exactly the audience he needed to though: the right wing base. He's saying "I will bring all out partisan culture wars bullshit to the supreme court and that is why you wanted to appoint me anyway."


Also I'm tired of conservative crybabies saying this has ruined his life. Sitting on the supreme court I not a basic human right. Even if he gets voted down he gets to go back to being a federal appeals court judge, o the humanity!
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Elheru Aran wrote: 2018-09-27 08:04pm yup... given all the negative press... you'd have to be completely disconnected to not be aware that this guy looks at least kinda bad at the moment. Even leaving aside the sexual allegations, there's the whole perjury thing, and his finances look really, really sketchy (apparently he put down a cash payment on his house or something, that was greater than his financial value at the moment)... but everybody's looking at the sexual allegations right now. The GOP has to be aware that this is downright toxic right now, and either they bite the bullet and go for it because Trump, suffering the consequences, or they cut him loose and weather whatever fury Trump may pile upon them. Either way, they have to know that they don't have many good solutions at the moment.

This is assuming, of course, that they're going to be *sensible*. That may be a problem.
They're fucked either way. Either they look his accusers (and the electorate) in the eye and put a man who is almost certainly a serial rapist into a lifetime seat on the Supreme Court, or they vote him down and invite the wrath of the orange man child. And even if they do ram Kavanaugh through... people will not forget how they have politicized the court. There WILL be payback if the Dems get in, whether its in the form of packing the Court, or impeaching Kavanaugh and kicking him right back off the Court(which they now have excellent grounds to do).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by Ralin »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-09-27 08:29pm.. people will not forget how they have politicized the court. There WILL be payback if the Dems get in, whether its in the form of packing the Court, or impeaching Kavanaugh and kicking him right back off the Court(which they now have excellent grounds to do).
Democrats have a damned poor track record inflicting effective payback, and the Republican base actively wants them to politicize the courts
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings- now with sexual misconduct allegations.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ralin wrote: 2018-09-27 10:03pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-09-27 08:29pm.. people will not forget how they have politicized the court. There WILL be payback if the Dems get in, whether its in the form of packing the Court, or impeaching Kavanaugh and kicking him right back off the Court(which they now have excellent grounds to do).
Democrats have a damned poor track record inflicting effective payback, and the Republican base actively wants them to politicize the courts
Its too early to say for sure, of course, but I think that there is a shift in the Democratic Party away from "Always be bipartisan and conciliatory" (ie, bend over and take it and then thank the Republicans for the privilege) and towards adopting a stronger line on progressive policies and not compromising them so easily. Its been somewhat delayed by the Bernie or Bust types, because they give the Centrist compromisers and excuse to say that progressives dissatisfied with the party's weak stances are not real Democrats and not reliable votes, but I think that its going to become harder and harder, in a lot of places, to win a Democratic primary if you have a record of consistently caving to Republicans.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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