The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

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The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-03 05:24pm

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/- ... le-706371/
The National Rifle Association warns that it is in grave financial jeopardy, according to a recent court filing obtained by Rolling Stone, and that it could soon "be unable to exist... or pursue its advocacy mission." (Read the NRA's legal complaint at the bottom of this story.)

The reason, according to the NRA filing, is not its deep entanglement with alleged Russian agents like Maria Butina. Instead, the gun group has been suing New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and the state's financial regulators since May, claiming the NRA has been subject to a state-led "blacklisting campaign" that has inflicted "tens of millions of dollars in damages."

In the new document - an amended complaint filed in U.S. District Court in late July - the NRA says it cannot access financial services essential to its operations and is facing "irrecoverable loss and irreparable harm."

Specifically, the NRA warns that it has lost insurance coverage - endangering day-to-day operations. "Insurance coverage is necessary for the NRA to continue its existence," the complaint reads. Without general liability coverage, it adds, the "NRA cannot maintain its physical premises, convene off-site meetings and events, operate educational programs ... or hold rallies, conventions and assemblies."

The complaint says the NRA's video streaming service and magazines may soon shut down.

"The NRA's inability to obtain insurance in connection with media liability raises risks that are especially acute; if insurers remain afraid to transact with the NRA, there is a substantial risk that NRATV will be forced to cease operating." The group also warns it "could be forced to cease circulation of various print publications and magazines."

In addition to its insurance troubles, the NRA court filing also claims that "abuses" by Cuomo and the New York State Department of Financial Services "will imminently deprive the NRA of basic bank-depository services ... and other financial services essential to the NRA's corporate existence."

The lawsuit presents these financial risks as catastrophic. Without access to routine banking services, the NRA claims, "it will be unable to exist as a not-for-profit or pursue its advocacy mission." The lawsuit accuses New York's government of seeking to "silence one of America's oldest constitutional rights advocates," pleading to the court: "If their abuses are not enjoined, they will soon, substantially, succeed."

The lawsuit stems from actions taken by New York financial regulators to halt the sale of an illegal, NRA-branded insurance policy. The NRA actively marketed "Carry Guard," a policy to reimburse members for legal costs incurred after firing a legal gun. In May, the state of New York found that Carry Guard "unlawfully provided liability insurance to gun owners for certain acts of intentional wrongdoing." The NRA's insurance partners agreed to stop selling the policies and pay a $7 million fine.

The NRA complaint alleges that New York was not content to block this single insurance product, but instead campaigned to sever the NRA's ties to a wide range of financial service providers, from insurance companies to banks.

The NRA did not respond to a request for more detail about its financial distress, but its most recent financial disclosure also shows it overspent by nearly $46 in 2016.

The lawsuit decries pressure from state regulators in the wake of the Parkland, Florida massacre - including a letter asking financial regulators to heed "the voices of the passionate, courageous, and articulate young people who have experienced this recent horror first hand" - and from the governor himself. In April, Cuomo tweeted: "I urge companies in New York State to revisit any ties they have to the NRA and consider their reputations, and responsibility to the public."

In this complain, the NRA paints these actions as a "malicious conspiracy to stifle the NRA's speech and induce a boycott of the NRA." Cuomo and state regulators, the NRA alleges, were intent on "suppressing the NRA's pro-Second Amendment view point" and had engaged in "unlawful conduct with the intent to obstruct, chill, deter, and retaliate against the NRA's core political speech."

In the filing, the NRA reveals that its longtime insurer broke off negotiations this winter and "states that it was unwilling to renew coverage at any price." [Emphasis in original.] The NRA claims it "has encountered serious difficulties obtaining corporate insurance coverage to replace coverage withdrawn." In addition, the NRA contends that "multiple banks" have now balked at doing business with it "based on concerns that any involvement with the NRA - even providing the organization with basic depository services - would expose them to regulatory reprisals."

The lawsuit seeks an immediate injunction to block state authorities from "interfering with, terminating, or diminishing any of the NRA's contracts and/or business relationships with any organizations." Without court intervention, the complaint reads, "the NRA will suffer irrecoverable loss and irreparable harm if it is unable to acquire insurance or other banking services due to the Defendants' actions."

Cuomo also did not respond to a request for comment, but has previously waved off the NRA's lawsuit as "a futile and desperate attempt to advance its dangerous agenda to sell more guns."
Couldn't have happened to nicer people.

I do have serious ethical misgivings about the idea of government leaning on private businesses to financially punish private organizations for their political actions. I considered it unconstitutional when Donald Trump uses the office of the Presidency to try to pressure the NFL into silencing players who kneel, or attacked the free press for doing its job. And moral and ideological consistency would require me to object to the same sorts of actions when committed by my side, however just the cause.

But this is the NRA. They are not just a gun-rights group- they are a mouthpiece for Alt. Reich/Trumpian propaganda. That doesn't mean they should be censored, but it does call into question the accuracy of their claims. It would fit their propaganda perfectly to portray a boycott conducted primarily by private citizens and businesses to protest their actions as simply the result of a campaign by a liberal government to violate their rights and take away their guns. And its telling, in my opinion, that their lawsuit appears to be basically asking for an injunction forbidding any regulation of their finances whatsoever. So I suspect that they are significantly overstating the role of the New York State government in this for their own purposes.

Ultimately, the veracity of the NRA's claims will be determined in court. But I certainly won't be shedding any tears if they go belly-up. They broke the law by telling violent criminals "Shoot someone and we'll have your back." That's how this began. They have also served as an active propaganda outlet for Trumpism, engaged in thinly-veiled incitement of violence against the Left, and allegedly served as a go-between for money-laundering from Russia to Trump and the Republicans. They are a cancer on this country, and the sooner they are gone, the better.
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-03 05:45pm

I mean, this is what boycotts are supposed to do, right? Either force an organization to modify its behavior, or force it out of business through consumers non-violently exercising their freedom of choice?

More evidence that the NRA only cares about one constitutional right, and that many on the right actively prefer violent protest to peaceful protest.
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Nicholas » 2018-08-03 07:45pm

Yes boycotts are supposed to force organizations to change their behavior or go out of business. Do you realize, however, that this is not a boycott of the NRA by the general population by by a small number of business? If the NRA's lawsuit described here is telling the truth this is a boycott of a national political organization by the small number of businesses that are capable of providing financial and insurance services to national organizations.

If they are doing this and can do this we now live in a world where a dozen men in a conference room in New York City have the power to force any national organization out of business by denying it access to basic financial services. I suspect a dozen men in a conference room in Silicone Valley could do the same as regards the internet. I think that ought to scare us.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-03 08:06pm

Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-03 07:45pm
Yes boycotts are supposed to force organizations to change their behavior or go out of business. Do you realize, however, that this is not a boycott of the NRA by the general population by by a small number of business? If the NRA's lawsuit described here is telling the truth this is a boycott of a national political organization by the small number of businesses that are capable of providing financial and insurance services to national organizations.
I can't say what percentage of the general populace is actively boycotting the NRA or affiliated businesses, but its certainly something a lot of gun-control activists were pushing of late. And in any case, private businesses have the right to choose not to do business with a company if they wish to. That is their freedom to exercise- but as I said, the NRA only cares about one freedom.

I am obviously well-aware that the NRA's lawsuit claims that the boycott is due to corrupt efforts to censor them by a Democratic state government- but I am exceedingly disinclined to take the NRA's claims at face-value, given that they have a history of promoting far Right fear-mongering and conspiracy theories, and that it is in their self-interest to push this narrative.
If they are doing this and can do this we now live in a world where a dozen men in a conference room in New York City have the power to force any national organization out of business by denying it access to basic financial services. I suspect a dozen men in a conference room in Silicone Valley could do the same as regards the internet. I think that ought to scare us.

Nicholas
Why do you seemingly assume that the NRA is providing an accurate version of events, rather than doing what it has always done: engaging in exaggerated fear-mongering about evil Democrats coming to take your freedom and your guns in order to scare you into siding with them against any attempt to hold them or the arms industry accountable for their actions? It does appear that Cuomo and the New York State government have voiced support for the boycott, and there is a legitimate question as to how far government officials and institutions can go in opposing a private political organization before it becomes an abuse of their position, but its a bit of leap from there to attributing the NRA's problems entirely, or predominantly, to a Democrat conspiracy to illegally censor their pro-gun advocacy.

After all, it would not bode well for democracy either if a criminal organization could cry "censorship" and evade consequences every time someone caught them breaking the law, or paint peaceful democrat opposition by others who are exercising their freedom of choice as censorship.* I think perhaps that ought to scare us more.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Jub » 2018-08-03 08:13pm

Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-03 07:45pm
Yes boycotts are supposed to force organizations to change their behavior or go out of business. Do you realize, however, that this is not a boycott of the NRA by the general population by by a small number of business? If the NRA's lawsuit described here is telling the truth this is a boycott of a national political organization by the small number of businesses that are capable of providing financial and insurance services to national organizations.

If they are doing this and can do this we now live in a world where a dozen men in a conference room in New York City have the power to force any national organization out of business by denying it access to basic financial services. I suspect a dozen men in a conference room in Silicone Valley could do the same as regards the internet. I think that ought to scare us.

Nicholas
The NRA should be able to restructure and get funding from members to a sufficient level to survive. The only thing at risk is their ability to be a national scale lobbying group and forced into s less noticeable role. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

The NRA, also isn't even anything special in terms of scale. There are many non-profits that are larger in terms of income and I doubt they're all funded by these exact companies. Thus this really isn't that worrying.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-08-04 02:14pm

The NRA is going to be (or already is) in a tough spot either way. Millenials have some "weird" views. Many want guns and are in fact big supporters of gun rights. But even many conservative millenials have favorable view of socialism and transgender right, among other things.
Polling in gun politics is notoriously murky—much lies in the crafting of the question—but demographers have consistently reported a conservative streak in millennial attitudes on guns. Respondents aged 18-29 are the least likely in the country to support a renewed ban on assault weapons, at 49 percent, a fact that has helped drive nationwide support down to a record low. Pew’s data suggest that those falling in the youngest age range have dropped the furthest in support for “gun control” since 2000 (when the alternative is presented as “gun rights”). And when the question concerns the National Rifle Association’s top legislative priority, concealed carry, millennials appear to lead the country. According to Gallup’s version of the question in 2004, the notion that concealed guns made for safer spaces polled at 25 percent; 11 years later, it registered at 55 percent nationally. The greatest support came from those ages 18-29, at 66 percent, a full 10 points greater than the next highest scoring demographic.

Does this make millennials more conservative on guns? Some think so. Observing the trends of his own poll, in 2014, Frank Newport, the director of Gallup, wrote, “At the same time that the country’s views of same-sex marriage and marijuana have undergone significant short-term changes,” America’s proliferating gun massacres “have not produced the change in attitudes toward guns that gun-control advocates have predicted.” Newport later told NBC News, “It’s unlike a number of other attitudes, say, like gay marriage, where young people are much more liberal.” Writing this month in New York Magazine, Benjamin Hart agreed, suggesting that the gun data may seem like “a head-scratcher” given millennials’ liberal attitudes on gay marriage, legalization and other issues. “But guns aren’t like that,” Hart writes.

It’s true that the young people in these surveys do support some efforts to loosen gun laws. But it turns out that their views are more complicated, even seemingly contradictory. The same poll that found millennials skeptical about an assault weapons ban? It also finds they lead the country in support for a mental health-related ban. They are the least likely demographic in America to own a gun, and they give the country’s lowest favorability ratings to the NRA, at 19 percent. And in the most striking case of ideological whipsaw, the same demographic of young people who reported unequaled openness to concealed carry, which the NRA has long dreamed of making a nationwide reality, also registered the highest levels of support for a national gun registry—the NRA’s most nightmarish hallucination. (Another 2015 poll bears out the same dichotomy.)
They don't support bans on guns, but they are in favor of background checks and mental health bans. But they also don't like the NRA. I think this is due to the NRAs unwillingness to compromise at all on gun related issues, something that Broomstick and SImon_Jester mentioned in the past. I would say, if anything, millenials like a dialog. They can like/love something and still discuss the drawbacks and limitations on it, so the NRA seems not worth their time or is viewed as actively hostile towards people because those people are dieing and the NRA's stance seems to be "tough."

It is kind of cool to see a world-view I have growing more popular. I'm actually a pretty liberal guy, but boy do I love me some guns and my Murrica Freedoms! But the NRA is a sham.

Like a lot of things, the NRA is either going to restructure and revise their goals or their membership will continue to (literally) die out and they will either become a joke group filled with nothing but loonies or just fade away all-together. I hope they do restructure. We need a Gun-lobbying group in this country as I do firmly believe even Murrica can balance gun rights with people's right to not get shot in the face.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-04 04:48pm

Wouldn't have said this even a year or two ago probably, and I hope we'll never need it, but considering how uncertain the future of American democracy is right now, a generation of well-armed Leftists is something I can live with.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-04 06:07pm

Without commentary on the armed leftist thing:

I might suggest that we don't necessarily know enough about the situation. A court filing is not a historic recreation. The NRA obviously believes it has reason to feel under attack. Whether that reason is legitimate or not, I don't know; the other side of the situation has not been put forth (as far as I can tell from the article).

If Cuomo and the NY government are in fact leaning on private businesses to put pressure on the NRA: reprehensible as I find that organization, I would feel obligated to object to such a course of action. If the NRA are shedding crocodile tears because they are in fact being boycotted: I'd find my smallest violin. The one in the nanometer case. It could well be a bit of both; perhaps the boycott started independently of the state government, the government noticed and sidled up to the table and said something along the lines of "We don't like those guys and if you might start thinking about liking them again, we might not like you very much either".

But until then? It's a lawsuit and as far as I can tell it hasn't gone much of anywhere just yet. Once it does, -that- is what we should be paying attention to, to see how it happened and how it shakes out.
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-08-04 06:16pm

This, however, should prove a great money maker for the NRA. Same as all the other times they've cried victim in the over four decades since the Revolt At Cincinnati.
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Nicholas » 2018-08-05 07:33pm

I agree with Elheru Aran that we don't know enough about the situation to judge it well however I find the attitude of schadenfreude very disturbing because almost whatever the reality it is has no justification.

If the NRA is making ridiculous and exaggerated claims in order to advance its fundraising it is not under any true threat so schadenfreude is foolish because the NRA is experiencing no misfortune.

If, on the other hand, the NRA's claims in this lawsuit are true ... then the government of New York State has used the regulatory authority given it to ensure that banks and insurance companies can pay their debts and don't steal from their customers to prevent the NRA from accessing basic financial services, like checking accounts, credit card processing, and general business insurance because of their political advocacy. This is an extraordinary and repugnant violation of the rule of law, of equality under the law and freedom of speech.

If the violation of those basic principles of just government doesn't make you oppose this behavior then oppose it because of the likely consequences. After all, what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and if the Democratic officials who run New York State can get away with doing this to their political opponents then you can be sure the Republican officials who run Georgia and Texas will try and do the same to their political opponents. And since they consider the NRA a mainstream member of the Republican coalition they will target mainstream members of the Democratic coalition. I hope we all agree that having elected officials attempting to deny their political opponents access to basic financial services is a really really bad thing.

Now, if a private boycott has managed to gain enough support it has convinced all major banks and insurance companies in New York to refuse to do business with the NRA then that would certainly be a just cause for schadenfreude, but no evidence has been presented of that.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Nicholas » 2018-08-05 08:05pm

Jub wrote:
2018-08-03 08:13pm
Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-03 07:45pm
Yes boycotts are supposed to force organizations to change their behavior or go out of business. Do you realize, however, that this is not a boycott of the NRA by the general population by by a small number of business? If the NRA's lawsuit described here is telling the truth this is a boycott of a national political organization by the small number of businesses that are capable of providing financial and insurance services to national organizations.

If they are doing this and can do this we now live in a world where a dozen men in a conference room in New York City have the power to force any national organization out of business by denying it access to basic financial services. I suspect a dozen men in a conference room in Silicone Valley could do the same as regards the internet. I think that ought to scare us.

Nicholas
The NRA should be able to restructure and get funding from members to a sufficient level to survive. The only thing at risk is their ability to be a national scale lobbying group and forced into s less noticeable role. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

The NRA, also isn't even anything special in terms of scale. There are many non-profits that are larger in terms of income and I doubt they're all funded by these exact companies. Thus this really isn't that worrying.
You seem to have misread the article. We are not talking about business that used to give money to the NRA and have stopped doing so. We are talking about banks, insurance companies and other financial services companies that used to do business with the NRA and are now refusing to do so. According to the NRA, so unanimously, that the NRA is having serious difficulty accessing the kind of financial services that are absolutely required to operate an organization in the United States. They seem to be claiming they are in danger of being forced to operate on a cash only basis.

I find that worrying, if true.

Nicholas

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Jub » 2018-08-05 08:28pm

Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-05 08:05pm
You seem to have misread the article. We are not talking about business that used to give money to the NRA and have stopped doing so. We are talking about banks, insurance companies and other financial services companies that used to do business with the NRA and are now refusing to do so. According to the NRA, so unanimously, that the NRA is having serious difficulty accessing the kind of financial services that are absolutely required to operate an organization in the United States. They seem to be claiming they are in danger of being forced to operate on a cash only basis.

I find that worrying, if true.

Nicholas
Prove your claims. You don't get to walk in and just claim that the NRA's claims are true and be alarmist about it if you don't have evidence.

Regardless, no business is forced to serve an organization they don't want to serve. As much as this line of thought can suck (re: wedding services for the LGBT community) I don't think you should legislate businesses into serving every potential customer that wishes to use their services nor continue serving existing customers on an eternal basis. This remains the case even if these financial institutions are being pressured to drop the NRA, ultimately if the banks feel caving is better than resisting it's entirely their prerogative.

I guess it sucks for the NRA but the US is the only nation that has anything to the scale of the NRA and solely focused on firearms rights. The NRA is not some essential non-profit and doesn't really provide a service beyond lobbying for rights that most other nations don't acknowledge. So no big loss even if they do collapse.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Knife » 2018-08-05 09:13pm

And I'm sure the federal probe into Butina in the Southern Disctrict of New York isn't helping. If any of the claims are true, the NRA was used as an infiltration point for the Russians. I'm sure that is weighing heavy on their own lawyers.

Anyone know what legal liability there is if the NRA goes bankrupt for legal issues like Butina?
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Solauren » 2018-08-05 09:56pm

The NRA does realize that it's entirely possible that financial institutions don't want to deal with them, because of probable PR blow back, right?

or are they just that paranoid?
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-08-06 10:08am

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-08-04 02:14pm
They don't support bans on guns, but they are in favor of background checks and mental health bans. But they also don't like the NRA. I think this is due to the NRAs unwillingness to compromise at all on gun related issues, something that Broomstick and SImon_Jester mentioned in the past. I would say, if anything, millenials like a dialog. They can like/love something and still discuss the drawbacks and limitations on it, so the NRA seems not worth their time or is viewed as actively hostile towards people because those people are dieing and the NRA's stance seems to be "tough."
Part of it may also be an increased awareness in the NRA being more about defending the interests of gun manufacturers as opposed to gun owners. Considering the growing backlash against the 1980s-style "Greed is Good" corporate love-fest, it is understandable that a lobbying group that seems perfectly okay with massacres, so long as it increases the bottom line of the companies that make the weapons being used in them, would be the target of a lot of hate.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by JCady » 2018-08-06 03:25pm

I will point out that the entire basis of New York's objections to the NRA's "Carry Guard" insurance program was that the NRA explicitly chose to disregard state laws stating (in substance) that you cannot provide liability insurance for criminal activity. This is pretty much a universal limit on liability insurance, differing from state to state only in that some states it's a matter of actual red-letter law, while in others it's an exclusion in the insurance policy itself.

Carry Guard would have been absolutely fine had it provided liability insurance to gun owners for lawful self defense only, but the NRA screwed itself over by setting up Carry Guard to explicitly still cover gun owners in cases where their actions were found to be unlawful. This was an absolutely intentional maneuver on the part of the NRA; they were saying that with Carry Guard, you could always shoot someone in "self defense" while enjoying the peace of mind that your legal expenses would be covered even if you were found to be legally in the wrong.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Nicholas » 2018-08-06 08:20pm

Jub wrote:
2018-08-05 08:28pm
Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-05 08:05pm
You seem to have misread the article. We are not talking about business that used to give money to the NRA and have stopped doing so. We are talking about banks, insurance companies and other financial services companies that used to do business with the NRA and are now refusing to do so. According to the NRA, so unanimously, that the NRA is having serious difficulty accessing the kind of financial services that are absolutely required to operate an organization in the United States. They seem to be claiming they are in danger of being forced to operate on a cash only basis.

I find that worrying, if true.

Nicholas
Prove your claims. You don't get to walk in and just claim that the NRA's claims are true and be alarmist about it if you don't have evidence.

Regardless, no business is forced to serve an organization they don't want to serve. As much as this line of thought can suck (re: wedding services for the LGBT community) I don't think you should legislate businesses into serving every potential customer that wishes to use their services nor continue serving existing customers on an eternal basis. This remains the case even if these financial institutions are being pressured to drop the NRA, ultimately if the banks feel caving is better than resisting it's entirely their prerogative.

I guess it sucks for the NRA but the US is the only nation that has anything to the scale of the NRA and solely focused on firearms rights. The NRA is not some essential non-profit and doesn't really provide a service beyond lobbying for rights that most other nations don't acknowledge. So no big loss even if they do collapse.
From the first post of this thread:
In this complain, the NRA paints these actions as a "malicious conspiracy to stifle the NRA's speech and induce a boycott of the NRA." Cuomo and state regulators, the NRA alleges, were intent on "suppressing the NRA's pro-Second Amendment view point" and had engaged in "unlawful conduct with the intent to obstruct, chill, deter, and retaliate against the NRA's core political speech."

In the filing, the NRA reveals that its longtime insurer broke off negotiations this winter and "states that it was unwilling to renew coverage at any price." [Emphasis in original.] The NRA claims it "has encountered serious difficulties obtaining corporate insurance coverage to replace coverage withdrawn." In addition, the NRA contends that "multiple banks" have now balked at doing business with it "based on concerns that any involvement with the NRA - even providing the organization with basic depository services - would expose them to regulatory reprisals."
I think that proves what the NRA is claiming. And I repeat what I said in the post you quoted. I find this worrying, if true.

As regards the rest of your post. When you say "no business is forced to serve an organization they don't want to serve" you are flat out wrong regarding US law. Anti-discrimination laws routinely require businesses to serve people and organizations they don't want to serve. As do the common carrier laws that regulate railroads, buses, airlines, cruise ships and ISPs (until Trump reversed Obama's decision to include them).

That error is not actually relevant though since the claim is that the government is pressuring these business not to serve the NRA. If that is true it is a profound violation of the rule of law and equality under the law and innocent until proven guilty. How can you not find it worrying?

Nicholas

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by Jub » 2018-08-06 08:55pm

Nicholas wrote:
2018-08-06 08:20pm
I think that proves what the NRA is claiming. And I repeat what I said in the post you quoted. I find this worrying, if true.
If you had evidence you wouldn't have to couch things in 'if it's true' so do you have proof?
As regards the rest of your post. When you say "no business is forced to serve an organization they don't want to serve" you are flat out wrong regarding US law. Anti-discrimination laws routinely require businesses to serve people and organizations they don't want to serve. As do the common carrier laws that regulate railroads, buses, airlines, cruise ships and ISPs (until Trump reversed Obama's decision to include them).
This isn't covered by any of that and even under the current laws you can refuse service on the grounds that providing that service is detrimental to their business, though in some cases that would need to go through the courts.
That error is not actually relevant though since the claim is that the government is pressuring these business not to serve the NRA. If that is true it is a profound violation of the rule of law and equality under the law and innocent until proven guilty. How can you not find it worrying?
I don't find it worrying because the NRA was breaking the law with the service they wished to provide and got smacked down for it. Do the crime, face the backlash.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-07 07:07pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-03 05:24pm
Specifically, the NRA warns that it has lost insurance coverage - endangering day-to-day operations. "Insurance coverage is necessary for the NRA to continue its existence," the complaint reads. Without general liability coverage, it adds, the "NRA cannot maintain its physical premises, convene off-site meetings and events, operate educational programs ... or hold rallies, conventions and assemblies."
This is a serious threat to the shooting sports. See, the majority of shooting ranges get their insurance through AFAIK, the NRA's insurance program, as most insurers either don't do it, or have exorbitant rates if they do offer it.
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-07 07:10pm

Jub wrote:
2018-08-03 08:13pm
The NRA, also isn't even anything special in terms of scale. There are many non-profits that are larger in terms of income and I doubt they're all funded by these exact companies. Thus this really isn't that worrying.
Does anyone here, even look into IRS Form 990s? SPLC for one, is sitting on about 400M in cash. :shock:
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-07 07:12pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-08-06 10:08am
Part of it may also be an increased awareness in the NRA being more about defending the interests of gun manufacturers as opposed to gun owners.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Back in teh 1950s, all the firearms manufacturers wanted stiff import tariffs and/or bans on firearms imports, because cheap WWII surplus rifles were cutting into their new-build hunting rifle lineups profits.

NRA took the opposite direction, and the importation of Mannlicher Carcanos continued.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-07 07:14pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2018-08-07 07:12pm
Civil War Man wrote:
2018-08-06 10:08am
Part of it may also be an increased awareness in the NRA being more about defending the interests of gun manufacturers as opposed to gun owners.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Back in teh 1950s, all the firearms manufacturers wanted stiff import tariffs and/or bans on firearms imports, because cheap WWII surplus rifles were cutting into their new-build hunting rifle lineups profits.

NRA took the opposite direction, and the importation of Mannlicher Carcanos continued.
That was then. This is now.

But I love how you seem to think that an example from the 1950s has any bearing on what the NRA's agenda is today. Do you also think the Democratic Party still supports segregation?
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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-07 07:15pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2018-08-07 07:07pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-03 05:24pm
Specifically, the NRA warns that it has lost insurance coverage - endangering day-to-day operations. "Insurance coverage is necessary for the NRA to continue its existence," the complaint reads. Without general liability coverage, it adds, the "NRA cannot maintain its physical premises, convene off-site meetings and events, operate educational programs ... or hold rallies, conventions and assemblies."
This is a serious threat to the shooting sports. See, the majority of shooting ranges get their insurance through AFAIK, the NRA's insurance program, as most insurers either don't do it, or have exorbitant rates if they do offer it.
I actually do sympathize if that's the case, but insurers fucking people over by refusing to cover things or charging exorbitant fees is nothing new. Its the whole reason Obamacare was passed, basically.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-07 07:26pm

JCady wrote:
2018-08-06 03:25pm
I will point out that the entire basis of New York's objections to the NRA's "Carry Guard" insurance program was that the NRA explicitly chose to disregard state laws stating (in substance) that you cannot provide liability insurance for criminal activity. This is pretty much a universal limit on liability insurance, differing from state to state only in that some states it's a matter of actual red-letter law, while in others it's an exclusion in the insurance policy itself.
Then why hasn't USCCA been targeted by NYS?

Image

USCCA pays 100% upfront, while NRA Carry guard only pays 20% upfront and 80% after a not guilty verdict.

USCCA basically is better liability insurance no matter what, yet only the NRA's program is being targeted by Emperor Cuomo? Even after USCCA got a member off of a gun charge in NYC LaGuardia after his flight was diverted there?

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/uscca- ... y-airport/
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Re: The NRA is in serious financial difficulties, may be forced to shut down.

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-07 07:29pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-07 07:14pm
That was then. This is now.
If you want to know what an actual "gun manufacturer lobby" group is, go look at NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/) They literally bill themselves as the firearms industry trade association, and take on legal cases; the recent case that was lost against the California Microstamping law was funded by NSSF:

National Shooting Sports Foundation Inc. v. State of California, No. S239397
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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