Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-22 01:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 01:22pm
Hopefully Mueller will remedy that deficit in his team going forward.

Though, I also think that this outcome shows why, however frustrating the length of the investigation may be, it is vital that Mueller be given the time he needs to build his case and not rushed to a conclusion (at least, from the point of view of someone who wants the truth to come out, rather than obstruct justice). This is a very complex case, probably with a lot of very technical evidence that you have to convey to a jury, and even a seemingly-airtight case... isn't. Mueller is one of the most experienced and capable people in the country, probably in the world, to handle a case like this. For all we know, if he were less thorough, less professional, or less experienced, Manafort might have got a hung jury on all counts.
To be fair, from what little I've followed of the case, the judge appears to have been particularly aggressive in his treatment of the prosecution. It was honestly a bit concerning. If the prosecution was cacking up its job, that's another matter, but most of the reporting I saw tended to focus upon the judge telling the prosecution to stop doing this and that, being openly sarcastic/contemptuous from the bench, and snapping at them when he perceived violations of courtroom procedure occurring.

Basically with that kind of back and forth bickering going on it's no wonder the jury might have been a bit unsure how to handle all the charges...
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by bilateralrope » 2018-08-23 12:12am

One thing I keep hearing from various lawyers is that if a judge seems rather harsh to one side, it could be that he is doing it to reduce the other sides chances of getting an appeal.

Also, Manafort's lawyers are complaining over how much evidence there is for his next trial
The jury is deliberating in Paul Manafort‘s bank and tax fraud trial in Virginia federal court. Meanwhile, his money laundering trial in Washington, D.C. is rapidly approaching, and his legal team is starting to feel a time crunch. In a court filing on Thursday, they asked for a time extension for them to file a joint pretrial statement with prosecutors. One of the reasons they gave for the extension is that there isn’t enough time for them to go through the extensive list pieces of potential evidence that Special Counsel Robert Mueller‘s office has provided.

“To date, the Special Counsel has provided counsel with well over 1000 proposed exhibits,” the court filing said, noting that most of them were not part of Manafort’s current trial in Virginia, despite both cases being related to Manafort’s work in Ukraine. To compare, Mueller’s evidence list in the Virginia case included more than 500 exhibits. Manfort’s lawyers pointed out in a footnote that prosecutors only used about one third of those exhibits during the trial itself, saying, “this history strongly suggests that defense counsel’s review of more than one-thousand proposed exhibits for this case–many of which may be irrelevant for the trial set before this Court—would take time away from necessary trial preparation.”

Manafort’s request for an extension also claimed that more time was needed simply because there’s no telling when the Virginia case will be wrapped up. The original deadline for the joint pretrial statement was set for this coming Monday, August 20, and Manafort requested an extra week.

Judge Amy Berman Jackson agreed to an extension, just not for as long as Manafort wanted. In an order later on Thursday, she stated that the joint statement must now be filed by August 24, and that by August 21 Mueller’s office must let Manafort’s team know which exhibits from their list they plan on withdrawing, or which they only plan on using for the purpose of impeaching witnesses’ potential testimony.

“The government is encouraged to review the exhibit list closely with an eye towards streamlining the presentation of its case,” the judge said.

The two sides are set to discuss questions for the jury questionnaire at a hearing on August 28.

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Beowulf » 2018-08-23 01:05pm

Justice isn't generally like on TV. You're generally not allowed to surprise defendants with new evidence during a trial. It is legal to dump a bunch of evidence on the defense shortly before, but it's not good generally to do so, as that's a common tactic by prosecutors to hide exculpatory evidence ("We totally gave you the evidence that supported someone else being the killer! It's not our fault your attorney couldn't find it in the 500 boxes of evidence we sent the day before the trial. Therefore the fact you're actually innocent doesn't matter. We need to keep our conviction rate up.")
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-24 04:32pm

Turns out there was a Trumper on the jury... and she voted to convict:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ABIR6KqdE

I'm not sure how the hell a Trumper, complete with MAGA hat, who believes the Mueller probe is witch hunt got past the jury selection process (apparently she was vague about her political leanings), but she says that although she wanted Manafort to be innocent, she was convinced by the evidence that he was guilty. She also says that she does not believe that the one holdout on the jury was a Trump supporter, based on discussions that they had.

I've got to say, however despicable and misguided I find her politics, I'm impressed that she was honest enough to be persuaded by the evidence and vote accordingly, despite her biases. And that she had the guts to admit to it on television, especially given that the judge decided not to release the jury's identities after he received death threats.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-24 07:26pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-24 04:32pm
Turns out there was a Trumper on the jury... and she voted to convict:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6ABIR6KqdE

I'm not sure how the hell a Trumper, complete with MAGA hat, who believes the Mueller probe is witch hunt got past the jury selection process (apparently she was vague about her political leanings), but she says that although she wanted Manafort to be innocent, she was convinced by the evidence that he was guilty. She also says that she does not believe that the one holdout on the jury was a Trump supporter, based on discussions that they had.

I've got to say, however despicable and misguided I find her politics, I'm impressed that she was honest enough to be persuaded by the evidence and vote accordingly, despite her biases. And that she had the guts to admit to it on television, especially given that the judge decided not to release the jury's identities after he received death threats.
Your link doesn't work.

And hopefully that's what all these court cases will do, open their eyes about what's going on. If there's enough talk and proof of what's really going on, voters will leave camp due to not wanting to be affiliated with a bunch of con men.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-25 04:17pm

"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2018-09-14 01:06pm

So, an interesting update on things...
Manfort evidently is caving and striking a plea deal for his next trial.

Donald Trump's former campaign chairman Paul Manafort is close to reaching a plea deal that would avert a trial scheduled to start later this month in Washington, D.C.

No details were immediately available about the charges to which Manafort might plead guilty or whether he might cooperate with prosecutors, according to a person familiar with the matter. The person asked not to be identified.

The tentative deal was first reported on Thursday evening by ABC News.

Manafort is scheduled to appear in federal court in Washington, D.C., on Friday morning in a hearing that had been moved from earlier in the week. Negotiations have been underway between his lawyers and the office of Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller.

Manafort's D.C. case includes charges of alleged conspiracy, failing to register as a foreign agent and witness tampering. He already faces about 10 years in prison after having been convicted in a separate case last month in the Eastern District of Virginia on bank and tax fraud charges.

Manafort hasn't been sentenced since his Virginia verdict, but the prospect of that prison time and more punishment in the District of Columbia case may have prompted him and his lawyers to seek to avoid the second trial.

If a plea is concluded on Friday, it also might keep nitty-gritty details out of the public eye involving Manafort's lobbying activities in Ukraine on behalf of Viktor Yanukovich, the former president who was ousted in popular protests.

What isn't clear is whether Manafort would accept a deal in which he receives leniency in exchange for cooperation. His onetime business partner and protégé, Rick Gates, made such a deal and appeared as the government's star witness against Manafort in his Virginia trial last month.

If Manafort simply pleads guilty and makes clear that he hasn't given evidence to the government, that could increase his favor with President Trump, who already has faulted what he calls Manafort's "unfair" treatment by the Justice Department.

Trump discussed a possible pardon for Manafort with his lawyers earlier this summer, attorney Rudy Giuliani has told NPR. But Giuliani says Trump has agreed not to move forward with the idea.
To be clear, this is apparently NOT many sort of deal with the Muller investigation but apparently Manafort just not wanting to go through another trial. Still, seeing him stand before a Judge and admit guilt will be satisfying.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-09-14 09:28pm

Guess the guilty verdicts in his first trial shook his nerves enough to make him doubt the wisdom of holding out for a pardon. Good news.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Ralin » 2018-09-15 10:27am

So, am I missing something or is the takeaway here that Trump doesn't feel sufficiently threatened by any of this to bother using his power to pardon people Mueller charges or otherwise interfere?

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2018-09-15 10:35am

I wouldn't be surprised if he is Strongly being told to wait until AFTER The mid terms.
same wit ha few other things.
Of course, if Trump feels he has become a "Traitor" and is in any way helping Muller, then its a good bet the Pardon will never happen.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Knife » 2018-09-15 04:19pm

Ralin wrote:
2018-09-15 10:27am
So, am I missing something or is the takeaway here that Trump doesn't feel sufficiently threatened by any of this to bother using his power to pardon people Mueller charges or otherwise interfere?
Yeah, as I understand it, though purely quiet whispers, if he starts pardoning people he'll lose a lot of GOPer support. They are busy right now ramrodding shit through and would have to stop if Trump went of the rails with pardons.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Ralin » 2018-09-15 05:46pm

Knife wrote:
2018-09-15 04:19pm

Yeah, as I understand it, though purely quiet whispers, if he starts pardoning people he'll lose a lot of GOPer support.
I've been hearing the whole "The party will rein Trump in by privately making it clear they'll punish him if he keeps doing outrageous shit that hurts their interests" thing for close to two years now. I don't find it very convincing.

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Batman » 2018-09-15 05:52pm

He does nothing but outrageous shit. Has from day one. I have yet to see any reigning in happen. If Trump was checked at all it was done by the courts
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-09-15 08:15pm

Knife wrote:
2018-09-15 04:19pm
Ralin wrote:
2018-09-15 10:27am
So, am I missing something or is the takeaway here that Trump doesn't feel sufficiently threatened by any of this to bother using his power to pardon people Mueller charges or otherwise interfere?
Yeah, as I understand it, though purely quiet whispers, if he starts pardoning people he'll lose a lot of GOPer support. They are busy right now ramrodding shit through and would have to stop if Trump went of the rails with pardons.
Maybe, but like others, I'm skeptical. Deeply skeptical. If locking thousands of children in cages, labeling the press the enemy of the people, letting 3,000 Puerto Ricans die and calling it a success, and sucking Putin and Kim Jong Un's cocks on television while starting a trade war with fucking Canada wasn't their line, I'm curious to know what would be.
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-09-15 08:44pm

Its now been confirmed that Mueller will cooperate with the Mueller probe:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy ... rt-mueller
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Batman » 2018-09-15 10:10pm

Um-Mueller cooperating with the Mueller probe doesn't really come as much of a surprise :P
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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Mr Bean » 2018-09-15 11:23pm

Batman wrote:
2018-09-15 10:10pm
Um-Mueller cooperating with the Mueller probe doesn't really come as much of a surprise :P
I'm shocked I'll say, What does Mueller know? Will Mueller tell all to Mueller? Or will he try and conive his way out of things like Papadopoulos did. But Mueller should know consider what happened to Papadopoulos how poorly any attempt by Mueller to device the Mueller investigation will go.

Frankly I think it's Mueller best bet to be as nice to Mueller as possible, get on the man's good side.

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by Ralin » 2018-09-16 06:00am

It's a testament to Trump's mediocrity that the main thing stopping him from throwing judges and Congress members who defy him into Guantanamo is probably the fact that it just hasn't occurred to him yet and/or he doesn't have the focus to plan and order it.

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Re: Manafort Heads To Court. First Defendant In Mueller Probe To Face Trial

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-09-16 11:14pm

I do think that in that case, that would probably finally push enough Republicans over the line to impeach, out of self-interest if nothing else. But if Trump had gotten to that point, I doubt he'd leave office except at literal gunpoint, even if he was impeached- he'd probably order troops to arrest the Congress if it tried to impeach him, and we'd be in a civil war unless the troops just told him "fuck no".
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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