Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

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Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-26 10:42pm

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-russia-j ... xit-698486

From the article:
Trump ally and Brexit leader Nigel Farage says there's something Americans should worry about more than Russian meddling: Jews.

Farage in a Monday interview singled out the so-called "Jewish lobby" as an overwhelming power in America during a discussion about Russia's interference in U.S. politics.

"There are other very powerful lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices," Farage said on his London-based radio show.

He turned the conversation to Jewish lobbies after a caller had suggested the pro-Israel lobby was as dangerous to the U.S. as the Kremlin.

"That's a reasonable point," Farage told the caller.

"There are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it's quite small, but in terms of influence it's quite big."

Farage's remarks perpetuate popular and false narratives about a singular "Jewish lobby" operating within the United States and American Jews uniformly lobbying on behalf of Israel.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-26 11:01pm

As detestable as I find the man, nothing he's actually quoted as saying in that brief article mention any comparison between Russia and "the Jews" as a threat to America - he says that "the Jews" are "a strong voice" and remarks that they're disproportionately influential given the size of the population.

I don't see any actual comparison with the Russkies there, unless there's more in the article you linked to but didn't quote.

I agree he's an idiot, but please at least criticise him for what he actually says, not what you or someone else online thinks he said.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-26 11:18pm

A caller compared the threat of the "pro-Israel lobby" to that of the Kremlin. Farage backed the caller up, and then apparently equated the "pro-Israel lobby" with "Jews".

But there's a recording of Farage's words attached to the article, if you want to hear the audio for yourself.
Farage in a Monday interview singled out the so-called "Jewish lobby" as an overwhelming power in America during a discussion about Russia's interference in U.S. politics.

"There are other very powerful lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices," Farage said on his London-based radio show.

He turned the conversation to Jewish lobbies after a caller had suggested the pro-Israel lobby was as dangerous to the U.S. as the Kremlin.

"That's a reasonable point," Farage told the caller.

"There are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it's quite small, but in terms of influence it's quite big."
The comparison to Russia originated with the caller, who Farage appeared to agree with. The comparison to Jews seems to have originated with Farage, falsely equating the "pro-Israel lobby" with "Jews".

Mind you, he's not wrong that the Israeli government and its apologists wield a dangerous level of influence in Washington. The problem is that he equates "pro-Israel lobby" with "Jews", and talks about how many Jews there are in America had how they have too much influence. Also the Whataboutism, since this came up during a discussion of Russian influence, presumably as a way to deflect the topic (keep in mind that Farage has ties to persons and organizations who are subjects of the Mueller investigation).

I'd also avoid the term "Russkies", by the way. It could be considered an ethnic slur, and I've spent too much time over the last two years trying to explain that, no, the Left doesn't hate Russians-just the Russian government.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-26 11:26pm

Thank you for clearing that up, but you may want to be a tad more careful with thread titles for stuff like this. It's saying something that isn't strictly true. "That's a reasonable point" is not the same as "I completely agree with you" or "I said this myself."

Like I said, the man's a complete shit, but there's enough terrible things he's actually said and done that there isn't a need to attribute other stuff to him.

Also, I;m not sure that you can automatically equate "criticises pro-Israel lobbies" or even "the Jews" with "Nazi." Nazi is an extremely loaded and provocative term, but they're hardly the only group in history (or even currently) to have an issue with "the Jews."
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-26 11:33pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-07-26 11:26pm
Thank you for clearing that up, but you may want to be a tad more careful with thread titles for stuff like this. It's saying something that isn't strictly true. "That's a reasonable point" is not the same as "I completely agree with you" or "I said this myself."

Like I said, the man's a complete shit, but there's enough terrible things he's actually said and done that there isn't a need to attribute other stuff to him.

Also, I;m not sure that you can automatically equate "criticises pro-Israel lobbies" or even "the Jews" with "Nazi." Nazi is an extremely loaded and provocative term, but they're hardly the only group in history (or even currently) to have an issue with "the Jews."
First of all, I absolutely don't equate criticism of the Israeli government and its supporters with being a Nazi. Every government and its policies should be fair game for criticism, and the Israeli government (particularly the current one) is more deserving of it than many, in my opinion. If Farage had restricted himself to criticizing the power of the pro-Israel lobby, I would have questioned his motives given his history and associations, but the criticism itself would have been more or less valid. But when he equates "pro-Israel lobby" to Jews, and suggests that the Jewish people have too much power in America, then he loses all sympathy, and he himself invites comparisons to past anti-Semitic regimes, including the Nazis.

I don't really feel inclined to carefully parse and nitpick words for a man like Farage, or give him the benefit of the doubt. His sympathies and connections to far-Right nationalist and xenophobic politics are nothing new, and the dishonest intent and anti-Semitic sentiment behind his words is to me very clear.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-26 11:40pm

Fair enough but (and I am simply playing devil's advocate here), far-right nationalism and xenophobia and even anti-Semitism are not, nor have they ever been, exclusively traits of actual Nazis. It just seems to be a very convenient buzzword to throw around these days. And I really hate buzzwords of any form. He exhibits all three of those traits, fine, but I'm honestly unconvinced that simply saying "Nazi!" is actually at all helpful to the situation.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-26 11:43pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-07-26 11:40pm
Fair enough but (and I am simply playing devil's advocate here), far-right nationalism and xenophobia and even anti-Semitism are not, nor have they ever been, exclusively traits of actual Nazis. It just seems to be a very convenient buzzword to throw around these days. And I really hate buzzwords of any form. He exhibits all three of those traits, fine, but I'm honestly unconvinced that simply saying "Nazi!" is actually at all helpful to the situation.
I appreciate that, but feel that quibbling over what to call Farage instead of what he actually said is somewhat missing the point here, and that Nazis and similar ideologies have made a lot of gains by rebranding themselves as something different, while keeping essentially the same hateful world-view (this rebranding of Neo-Nazism and white supremacy is literally the entire reason that the term "Alt. Right" exists, for example).
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-07-26 11:52pm

Fine, but in your original post, the only comment you offered on the article was "Meet the new Nazis, same as the old Nazis." Nothing else, no discussion, no debate, nothing. You just slapped a label on it and walked off. What good does that do?
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by White Haven » 2018-07-27 02:26am

Moving on from the question of what to call Farage, we also arrive at a somewhat troublesome contradiction. It's very hard to occupy the 'fuck's sake, I wish the US would stop covering for all the shit Israel gets up to' position while at the same time condemning the 'the Jewish lobby holds way too much power in Washington' position. At least, it should be, but apparently...not?
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2018-07-27 03:22am

Stop letting your opponent set the terms of the debate. It's only a contradiction if you accept that Israel is all of Judaism. Because if Israel isn't literally Judaism, then it's completely possible to condemn the secular actions of the country of Israel without being anti-semetic.

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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-07-27 03:34am

White Haven wrote:
2018-07-27 02:26am
Moving on from the question of what to call Farage, we also arrive at a somewhat troublesome contradiction. It's very hard to occupy the 'fuck's sake, I wish the US would stop covering for all the shit Israel gets up to' position while at the same time condemning the 'the Jewish lobby holds way too much power in Washington' position. At least, it should be, but apparently...not?
A similar thing has happened to the Labour party in the UK, they're being branded anti-semitic for not adopting a certain definition of it word for word, and adding in a caveat to the effect that 'criticising Isreal isn't automatically anti-semitic'

The argument being that one is a dog whistle for the other. (which it can be of course but isn't automatically)

But there's a world of difference between saying 'the Jews are a big a threat as Russia' and saying 'the pro-Israeli lobby is disproportionately powerful '
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Broomstick » 2018-07-27 05:30am

Words can get you in trouble.

Farange equated "the pro-Israeli lobby" with "the Jewish people", ignoring that

1) although a minority within Jews as a whole, quite a few Jews opposed the formation of the modern state of Israel for a varity of reasons
2) quite a few Jews both within and outside Israel have serious problems with the current government of Israel
3) a sizable portion of the "pro-Israeli lobby" in the US are actually evangelical Christians.

Instead, he posits that "the Jewish people" are a threat, not those people (Jewish or not) who support the current government of Isreali which, in any case, is not a threat to the US (they are most certainly a problem for other people). This is not the position of a thoughtful man, it is, in fact, the sort of things the Nazis used to do - conflate "the Jewish people" with a threat, and ignore that not all Jews are identical. And ignore the contributions of the evangelical Chrisitan to the current morass in the Middle East.

That said, it WOULD help if people would say "the Israeli government" or "the current Israeli administration" instead of short-cutting it to "Israel".

I'm hoping the fact Trump has a daughter and son-in-law who are Jewish will blunt the worst sorts of antisemitism that could come out of the US administration, but that won't stop all of the resurgence of bigotry of all sorts the world is experiencing. I'm reminded of that when, instead of simply entering one of the local synagogues or Jewish centers I have to stand in front of a camera, be identified, and then buzzed in.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-07-27 10:54am

Also, if you adhere to the repugnant Seedline theory, you can be both pro-Israel and anti-Semetic.
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by Broomstick » 2018-07-27 06:10pm

Er... "seedline"?
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Re: Nigel Farage says Jews are as big a threat as Russian interference.

Post by madd0ct0r » 2018-07-28 10:26am

Broomstick wrote:
2018-07-27 06:10pm
Er... "seedline"?
With a bit of wikipefua wandering - seems to be the belief that eve mated with the serpent, giving birth to Cain (source of jews), while Abel was adams son.(source of whitey)

Not found anything that then gets you to Israel.
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