Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

[ray245]

US-based South African comedian Trevor Noah has defended himself after being criticised by a French diplomat for saying "Africa won the World Cup".

The Daily Show host made the comments on his satirical show a day after France beat Croatia to win football's most coveted prize on Sunday.

More than half of the French squad can trace their heritage back to Africa.

The French ambassador to the US said the comedian was denying their "Frenchness" by calling them African.

"This, even in jest, legitimises the ideology which claims whiteness as the only definition of being French," Gérard Araud said in a stern letter to Noah.

"They were educated in France, they learned to play soccer in France, and they are French citizens. They are proud of their country, France."

The Daily Show posted a video of the South African comic reading out the letter on Wednesday (later tweeted by the French embassy in the US) - and going on to argue that the players' African identity should be celebrated.

Noah said he understood where the ambassador was coming from and how his comment could be perceived as "joining the attack" with France's far right.

But he said his statement should be put in context: "When I am saying, 'They are African', I am not saying it as a way to exclude them from their Frenchness, but using it as a way to include them in my Africanness."

To deny that duality was something he "vehemently" disagreed with.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44885923

I suppose this kind of debate about the duality of one's identity, especially if the person is of a migrant background is what people are referring to as identity politics?

[Bedlam]

Well if you go back far enough all of the team could trace their ancestry to Africa, like all of humanity.

[AniThyng]

Well if you go back far enough all of the team could trace their ancestry to Africa, like all of humanity.

Yeah but that's really missing the point isn't it?

[Vendetta]

I think this is exposing a difference between America and Europe in its treatment of race identity.

In Europe, this sort of language is a reminder of the foreignness of the person being discussed. It's how racists remind you that you're not really "one of us".

(It's also telling that for sportspeople particularly, it tends to be deployed more when they're unsuccessful than when they're successful.).

[LaCroix]

This.
Calling them African is something that is considered racist over here. They are French, and do not promote any notions that they want to be considered anytthing else. (Just the same as some of my work collegues aren't Indian, they are British.)

We consider the current passport /citizenship to be more important than origins or ancestry.

[ray245]

This.
Calling them African is something that is considered racist over here. They are French, and do not promote any notions that they want to be considered anytthing else. (Just the same as some of my work collegues aren't Indian, they are British.)

We consider the current passport /citizenship to be more important than origins or ancestry.

Trevor Noah is doubling down on his stand and blaming the French for being short-sighted.

[LaCroix]

He's missing the fact that they were born and raised in France. They never even been in Africa, nor know anything about being African. They have been French all their life.

It's like a white guy who finds out via gene screening that he is 1/32th Apache suddenly claiming he's a native, or someone fourth generation American claiming to be part of Nordic culture, because his great grandfather was a Swede. It never was their culture, they are only hopping on a bandwaggon.

[AniThyng]

He's missing the fact that they were born and raised in France. They never even been in Africa, nor know anything about being African. They have been French all their life.

It's like a white guy who finds out via gene screening that he is 1/32th Apache suddenly claiming he's a native, or someone fourth generation American claiming to be part of Nordic culture, because his great grandfather was a Swede. It never was their culture, they are only hopping on a bandwaggon.

About that, they're at most, 2nd gen? I mean, that's not really that far removed - I know I can't speak for french people, but i'm 2nd gen (as in, my parents were born in Malaysia but not my grandparents) and it's really not possible to assert "chinese" is not an incorrect descriptor for my cultural background, even if you have to add a bunch of caveats on to it (and notwithstanding that my first language is not a chinese language)

[ray245]

He's missing the fact that they were born and raised in France. They never even been in Africa, nor know anything about being African. They have been French all their life.

It's like a white guy who finds out via gene screening that he is 1/32th Apache suddenly claiming he's a native, or someone fourth generation American claiming to be part of Nordic culture, because his great grandfather was a Swede. It never was their culture, they are only hopping on a bandwaggon.

About that, they're at most, 2nd gen? I mean, that's not really that far removed - I know I can't speak for french people, but i'm 2nd gen (as in, my parents were born in Malaysia but not my grandparents) and it's really not possible to assert "chinese" is not an incorrect descriptor for my cultural background, even if you have to add a bunch of caveats on to it (and notwithstanding that my first language is not a chinese language)

I had the experience of explaining to a person why Ray is my "real name".

The person was trying to push for a hyphenated identity like Trevor Noah.

[AniThyng]

He's missing the fact that they were born and raised in France. They never even been in Africa, nor know anything about being African. They have been French all their life.

It's like a white guy who finds out via gene screening that he is 1/32th Apache suddenly claiming he's a native, or someone fourth generation American claiming to be part of Nordic culture, because his great grandfather was a Swede. It never was their culture, they are only hopping on a bandwaggon.

About that, they're at most, 2nd gen? I mean, that's not really that far removed - I know I can't speak for french people, but i'm 2nd gen (as in, my parents were born in Malaysia but not my grandparents) and it's really not possible to assert "chinese" is not an incorrect descriptor for my cultural background, even if you have to add a bunch of caveats on to it (and notwithstanding that my first language is not a chinese language)

I had the experience of explaining to a person why Ray is my "real name".

The person was trying to push for a hyphenated identity like Trevor Noah.

I'm not entirely sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but I've met many Malaysian Chinese who would ask what ones Chinese name (specifically your name in mandarin ) is without any irony whatsoever. Even if they do have an English/Christian name they use otherwise. And in some cases even ones dialect name is not real enough.

Anyway the point is I don't think it's necessarily that absurd to retain diaspora identity across multiple generations, even with language and cultural assimilation.

[ray245]

I'm not entirely sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but I've met many Malaysian Chinese who would ask what ones Chinese name (specifically your name in mandarin ) is without any irony whatsoever. Even if they do have an English/Christian name they use otherwise. And in some cases even ones dialect name is not real enough.

Anyway the point is I don't think it's necessarily that absurd to retain diaspora identity across multiple generations, even with language and cultural assimilation.

I should have stated this is in Europe, not in Asia. The person in question was pushing me to adopt more of a hyphenated identity.

[AniThyng]

I'm not entirely sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but I've met many Malaysian Chinese who would ask what ones Chinese name (specifically your name in mandarin ) is without any irony whatsoever. Even if they do have an English/Christian name they use otherwise. And in some cases even ones dialect name is not real enough.

Anyway the point is I don't think it's necessarily that absurd to retain diaspora identity across multiple generations, even with language and cultural assimilation.

I should have stated this is in Europe, not in Asia. The person in question was pushing me to adopt more of a hyphenated identity.

As opposed to...?

[ray245]

As opposed to...?

Just seeing myself as Singaporean? Chinese culture is already dominant in Singapore, I don't see a reason why I need to further emphasis on my Chinese identity.

[Aether]

Someday I need to sit down and really think things through, but it always bothers me that people believe/think culture=color. This comes up a lot in cultural appropriation arguments that if you are not a particular color then you are somehow not allowed to appreciate or partake in that culture.

There was a movie called "A Day Without A Mexican", and the overall point of the movie was if all the (ill)legal immigrants, specifically Mexican's just all (literally) disappeared then who would paint your house, mow your lawn, pick up your trash tc. etc.

But what is often missed is the main character of the movie, a woman raised in a Mexican family didn't disappear. She found out that she was actually Argentinean. Near the end of the movie she declares that although she is Argentinean by birth, "in her heart she is Mexican" and *POOF* she disappears.

The point being is that one's culture is what they identify with. Color or ancestry has nothing to do with it.

[wautd]

Using Trevors logic, does this means that Africa is winning most of the NBA basketball games?

I hope that one day the US wins the World Cup, because then we can say Europe won the World Cup

[Jub]

At first, I assumed that France's team must have been made up of a bunch of naturalized players who were born in African nations and emigrated as adults. That happens sometimes, usually without much comment but it would be rare and comment-worthy if that was the case for an entire team. Looking at that roster two African born players who moved to France when they were two and everybody else is from Capital F France.

It's pretty dumb for anybody to say that France didn't win with wholely French players.

[Simon_Jester]

Given that Trevor Noah is a South African, born under apartheid and designated Black, who moved to the US (which is like the one place in the world that's happy with hyphenated identities even a bit), I can easily see this as a case of Noah having a different cultural frame of reference, rather than Noah just being too stupid or ignorant to understand what's going on here.

[Ralin]

Using Trevors logic, does this means that Africa is winning most of the NBA basketball games?

Given that Trevor Noah is a South African, born under apartheid and designated Black, who moved to the US (which is like the one place in the world that's happy with hyphenated identities even a bit), I can easily see this as a case of Noah having a different cultural frame of reference, rather than Noah just being too stupid or ignorant to understand what's going on here.

Along with what Simon said, the NBA is already stereotyped as a predominately black people sport (speaking as someone who isn't a fan and just knows what everyone knows). If you said that African-Americans are winning most NBA basketball games I'm guessing most people's response would be something, "Well yeah, duh."

[Simon_Jester]

And if Noah had said that a given NBA championship win involved a victory for Africans over other Africans, well... a lot of Americans would have laughed, and very few would be offended, most of them on the far right.

And this isn't just a white/black thing, you can see it in the way that America treated even white ethnic minorities like Poles, Italians, and Irishmen. Jokes about these groups' particular traits and supposedly inherited national identity often persisted for generations after the minority in question had largely assimilated.

Since the US is a nation that defines itself largely in terms of immigration from foreign shores, and ideological attachment to certain political concepts, Americans tend to be comfortable with the idea of people being "ethnicityfluid* " in a way that it seems some other countries are not.

...

*(I am deliberately paralleling the term 'genderfluid' here.)

[Vendetta]

And if Noah had said that a given NBA championship win involved a victory for Africans over other Africans, well... a lot of Americans would have laughed, and very few would be offended, most of them on the far right.

By contrast, the question every non-white European is tired of hearing is "but where are you really from", with the unspoken second half is "it isn't here, you're not white".

Pointing to immigrant origins is how racist Europeans remind non-whites that they'll never really belong here, because they'll never really be from here no matter how long their families live here.

[Elheru Aran]

Noah has lived here long enough though that he should be familiar with how Americans view race. I don't know if he has any experience in Europe. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this is an example of him missing the mark due to different cultural contexts. His crack worked (more or less) in America (the primary target of his humor), it fell flat in Europe.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Using Trevors logic, does this means that Africa is winning most of the NBA basketball games?

I hope that one day the US wins the World Cup, because then we can say Europe won the World Cup

Your first question makes it sound like you are unfamiliar with US culture. Are you suggesting there isn't a racial solidarity or even pride component in US sports?

[TheFeniX]

With the U.S.: This seems more racial than.... whatever. And also more solidarity among U.S. (local) black people than those on other continents.

I would think this also wouldn't play too well in America. Black Americans more closely identify as Americans than with their African roots, at least when I was looking into it over a decade go. Things may have changed more with the Internet taking over. You might (and would) hear insults like "go back to Africa" but prominent U.S. black were never celebrated for being "good" example for <insert originating (possibly) country here>.

Even Yao Ming, from China and couldn't speak a word of English: I don't recall anyone attributing his talents to China. More like "he's one of us now" because 'Murricans" are stupid about paying millions to people for hitting/kicking/throwing balls around.

There's been a bit of a dust-up WRT Black Panther between U.S. black and Africans. There seems to be a disconnect between them, like "this is how I, as a black U.S. citizen, think Africa should be or want it to be." It reminds me of the disconnect from American Chinese and native Chinese.

No one would think to call Michael Jordan's, Tiger Wood's, Emmet Smith's, etc accomplishments a "victory for Africa" after a big win. It would be stupid.

[Elheru Aran]

^That may be where the confusion arises to some degree. For the most part most black people in the US have been here for multiple generations, given African slavery began here in the US ~Jamestown Colony in the 1600s IIRC, while in Europe they're far more likely to be immigrants, or if native born, perhaps only there a few generations back. So they're still quite fresh from a historical perspective. Of course there are exceptions-- there are a lot of West Africans running around the US that came in the past couple decades or so, and there are black Europeans who have been there from way ago-- but this is how I'm reading that situation, anyway. African-Americans 'belong' here in the US a little more readily than African-Europeans (for lack of a better term) 'belong' there.

[Civil War Man]

It is a complicated issue. As others have pointed out (including a relative of mine who lives in France), it does mirror a common racial attack against non-white Europeans. Of course, as the same relative pointed out, some of the people up in arms about what Trevor Noah said are perfectly fine with using that same attack if it were a black French person or a French Muslim doing something bad. They are perfectly fine with claiming credit for the good, but tend to point to outside forces for the bad. It's like the old crack where some parent will talk to their partner about their kid, and it's "our child" when they do something good but "your child" when they get in trouble.

I think it's also equally dangerous to try to erase or ignore their heritage and pretend like their being French is the only thing that matters, since it pretty heavily downplays the colonial history that's the reason why they and their family are physically where they are now. The players are French first and foremost, but their African ancestry can be acknowledged without minimizing or downplaying their Frenchness, much like how Irish or Italian Americans can celebrate their Irish or Italian heritage while also being American.

^That may be where the confusion arises to some degree. For the most part most black people in the US have been here for multiple generations, given African slavery began here in the US ~Jamestown Colony in the 1600s IIRC, while in Europe they're far more likely to be immigrants, or if native born, perhaps only there a few generations back. So they're still quite fresh from a historical perspective. Of course there are exceptions-- there are a lot of West Africans running around the US that came in the past couple decades or so, and there are black Europeans who have been there from way ago-- but this is how I'm reading that situation, anyway. African-Americans 'belong' here in the US a little more readily than African-Europeans (for lack of a better term) 'belong' there.

I think this may be related to it. For a majority of black people in America, their ancestral ties were deliberately eradicated by the people who enslaved them, and so "black American" replaced the cultural heritage that they would have otherwise had if they could successfully trace their ancestry back to a specific tribe, nation, kingdom, etc.