Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

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Elheru Aran
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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-07-24 12:09pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-07-24 11:56am
I think it's also equally dangerous to try to erase or ignore their heritage and pretend like their being French is the only thing that matters, since it pretty heavily downplays the colonial history that's the reason why they and their family are physically where they are now. The players are French first and foremost, but their African ancestry can be acknowledged without minimizing or downplaying their Frenchness, much like how Irish or Italian Americans can celebrate their Irish or Italian heritage while also being American.
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-23 04:24pm
^That may be where the confusion arises to some degree. For the most part most black people in the US have been here for multiple generations, given African slavery began here in the US ~Jamestown Colony in the 1600s IIRC, while in Europe they're far more likely to be immigrants, or if native born, perhaps only there a few generations back. So they're still quite fresh from a historical perspective. Of course there are exceptions-- there are a lot of West Africans running around the US that came in the past couple decades or so, and there are black Europeans who have been there from way ago-- but this is how I'm reading that situation, anyway. African-Americans 'belong' here in the US a little more readily than African-Europeans (for lack of a better term) 'belong' there.
I think this may be related to it. For a majority of black people in America, their ancestral ties were deliberately eradicated by the people who enslaved them, and so "black American" replaced the cultural heritage that they would have otherwise had if they could successfully trace their ancestry back to a specific tribe, nation, kingdom, etc.
Right. African-Americans have been part of America for centuries, even if they were an oppressed minority part of the country. They don't have that same historical background in Europe nearly as much, and are more obviously new arrivals with all the baggage that has. African-Americans have a national identity that they share with Americans of all races, that's very separate from their own racial identity, which isn't particularly tied to their origins but is instead a sort of 'Black American' identity. African-Europeans, on the other hand, have a harder time with national versus racial identity because they're (relatively) more recent arrivals, with their former culture a little more fresh in their generational memories and while they may be officially accepted as part of the European countries they emigrate to, the unofficial acceptance is rather more difficult and they aren't quite 'one of us' yet even though that's the aspiration.

Hell even in the US blacks aren't always 'one of us' often enough that it should be a national shame...
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Exonerate
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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Exonerate » 2018-07-31 02:03am

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-23 03:00pm
Noah has lived here long enough though that he should be familiar with how Americans view race. I don't know if he has any experience in Europe. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this is an example of him missing the mark due to different cultural contexts. His crack worked (more or less) in America (the primary target of his humor), it fell flat in Europe.
Maybe it fell flat in Europe because it was too close to the truth and disturbed a polite fiction white Europeans often struggle to uphold, even when it's done with the best of intentions. The fact is that racial divisions do exist and France's steadfastness in refusing to acknowledge them doesn't mend them, it just papers over them (and some might even say leaves them to fester). Has anybody actually asked the players how they feel about this? If they want to reject the label of "African", that's their right - but far be it for the French ambassador or others to do it for them.

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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Vendetta » 2018-07-31 07:40am

Exonerate wrote:
2018-07-31 02:03am
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-23 03:00pm
Noah has lived here long enough though that he should be familiar with how Americans view race. I don't know if he has any experience in Europe. Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, this is an example of him missing the mark due to different cultural contexts. His crack worked (more or less) in America (the primary target of his humor), it fell flat in Europe.
Maybe it fell flat in Europe because it was too close to the truth and disturbed a polite fiction white Europeans often struggle to uphold, even when it's done with the best of intentions. The fact is that racial divisions do exist and France's steadfastness in refusing to acknowledge them doesn't mend them, it just papers over them (and some might even say leaves them to fester). Has anybody actually asked the players how they feel about this? If they want to reject the label of "African", that's their right - but far be it for the French ambassador or others to do it for them.
Yes, but the way those racial divisions are expressed in Europe are quite different to America. The rallying cry of racists in Europe is "go back home", even to people who have lived here for generations.

That's why hyphenated identities in Europe are themselves seen as a racist endeavour. Because they're used to remind people they'll never be French/British/German/etc enough.

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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-07-31 12:49pm

Vendetta wrote:
2018-07-31 07:40am
Yes, but the way those racial divisions are expressed in Europe are quite different to America. The rallying cry of racists in Europe is "go back home", even to people who have lived here for generations.
It's not as different as you seem to think. American Muslims, Latinos, black people, etc, all have racist white people yelling "go back to X" at them all the time. Shit, there are racists who yell that at people who are Sioux and Lakota, without the slightest hint of irony.

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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by madd0ct0r » 2018-08-01 06:23am

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-07-31 12:49pm
Vendetta wrote:
2018-07-31 07:40am
Yes, but the way those racial divisions are expressed in Europe are quite different to America. The rallying cry of racists in Europe is "go back home", even to people who have lived here for generations.
It's not as different as you seem to think. American Muslims, Latinos, black people, etc, all have racist white people yelling "go back to X" at them all the time. Shit, there are racists who yell that at people who are Sioux and Lakota, without the slightest hint of irony.
What X do they use in those cases?
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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Ralin » 2018-08-01 06:54am

madd0ct0r wrote:
2018-08-01 06:23am
What X do they use in those cases?
"Mexico/Where you came from" would be my guess, but I don't think I've seen this happen in the wild.

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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by houser2112 » 2018-08-01 08:51am

I don't suppose they care. I imagine it's more of a "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here" kind of thing.

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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-08-01 08:58am

madd0ct0r wrote:
2018-08-01 06:23am
Civil War Man wrote:
2018-07-31 12:49pm
Vendetta wrote:
2018-07-31 07:40am
Yes, but the way those racial divisions are expressed in Europe are quite different to America. The rallying cry of racists in Europe is "go back home", even to people who have lived here for generations.
It's not as different as you seem to think. American Muslims, Latinos, black people, etc, all have racist white people yelling "go back to X" at them all the time. Shit, there are racists who yell that at people who are Sioux and Lakota, without the slightest hint of irony.
What X do they use in those cases?
To expand a bit on Ralin's reply, it's usually Mexico if they are yelling at someone who looks even remotely Latino, Africa if they're yelling at black people, and China if they're yelling at Asian people, because they assume that all Latinos are Mexican, all black people are African, and all Asian people are Chinese. For most everyone else, it's usually something vague like "where you came from" because the type of person who would start screaming that kind of stuff at random people on the street typically isn't well-versed in geography.

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Elheru Aran
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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-01 01:39pm

Native Americans can pass for either Latino or Asian if someone is just driving by on the street, so they're fair (racist) game for either.

In the current discussion I'm having with my father-in-law he said "they have no right to be here" (referring to illegal immigrants). I'm debating whether I should ask him if *he* should self-deport as in a sense he doesn't have a right to be here either...
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Re: Trevor Noah defends 'Africa won the World Cup' joke

Post by Spoonist » 2018-08-02 12:57pm

1st
Here is the vid since it is always good to have the facts right on what his argument was instead of speculation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COD9hcTpGWQ
if you search on it you can find the first joke, and the follow up response as well.

2nd
Trevor knows euro culture well.
He lived in the UK for over a year and has been several times in france.

3rd
About american natives, the most common is to be mistaken as 'latino'.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump ... tor-legal/

It is so prevalent in some schools that actual latinos berate the native americans for not celebrating cinco de mayo properly. *sigh*

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