Texas school shooting happening now

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Broomstick » 2018-05-21 03:55am

I actually do know someone who harmed someone with a flare gun. Ruled self defense. But yeah, they're not normally used for that purpose.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Jub » 2018-05-21 06:36am

My stance on the state of US gun control hasn't changed since the last time I waded into one of these things, so fucking restating those points in a forum that won't attract the notice of anyone who can actually change anything.

What I will say is that it feels like the US needs to grow the fuck up. Most other nations have changed dramatically since the start of the 20th century but that was because they had to. They were ravaged by war, had entire political systems overthrown, or simply learned from others who had faced such trials while the US, the superpower, the world police, profited from every misfortune other nations suffered. You never had to change and now you're the 40-year-old former athlete who's in the news every few months for a drug problem or beating your spouse.

When people try to offer suggestions all we ever hear back is 'That won't work for me' or 'Yeah, sure whatever I'll get help' with no follow-up. Sure, it's no one person's fault, but if the populace of the US actually wanted change you'd have it by now. Look at how fast gay rights progressed and tell me that if you, as a nation, wanted something as simple as basic health care and fewer shootings something wouldn't have been done by now.

The fact is, America doesn't want to see its own faults and until some serious self-reflection happens it's only going to get worse.

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Jub » 2018-05-21 06:54am

Ghetto edit:

This wasn't at anybody. It's just frustrating as a person born in the late 80's that the Boomers and Gen Xers just coasted through the good years while ignoring the obvious results of spending cuts, corporate consolidation, and rampant inflation. Look your house doubled in value sounds good until you notice your wages didn't grow nearly as fast in the same time span... It pisses me off that my generation and the generation in school now will have to clean up the messes of people who'll sit there and tell you to your face that you could have what they had if you weren't so damned lazy.

Now hearing Broomstick say she's tired, I understand that but what about those of us who we're fucked before we were old enough to stand and be counted? Kids are dying because when it was easy nobody wanted to look inward and now that it's hard those same people are throwing up their hands and saying they couldn't have done anything.

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by madd0ct0r » 2018-05-21 07:52am

can this thread title be updated?

Wouldn't want it to be confused with another shooting happening a week later
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Broomstick » 2018-05-21 03:08pm

Jub wrote:
2018-05-21 06:54am
Now hearing Broomstick say she's tired, I understand that but what about those of us who we're fucked before we were old enough to stand and be counted?
I would expect ya'll would be furious. I am HAPPY when I see outraged young people, because that's how we're going to get change in this country.

I'm in the minority of the Boomers/next guys who actually tried to sound some warnings and do some social good. I wish the up and coming generation better luck than I had in that regard.
Kids are dying because when it was easy nobody wanted to look inward and now that it's hard those same people are throwing up their hands and saying they couldn't have done anything.
It's not that I couldn't do anything, it's that what I was able to do had no effect.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-05-21 03:24pm

Jub wrote:
2018-05-21 06:36am
My stance on the state of US gun control hasn't changed since the last time I waded into one of these things, so fucking restating those points in a forum that won't attract the notice of anyone who can actually change anything.

What I will say is that it feels like the US needs to grow the fuck up. Most other nations have changed dramatically since the start of the 20th century but that was because they had to. They were ravaged by war, had entire political systems overthrown, or simply learned from others who had faced such trials while the US, the superpower, the world police, profited from every misfortune other nations suffered. You never had to change and now you're the 40-year-old former athlete who's in the news every few months for a drug problem or beating your spouse.

When people try to offer suggestions all we ever hear back is 'That won't work for me' or 'Yeah, sure whatever I'll get help' with no follow-up. Sure, it's no one person's fault, but if the populace of the US actually wanted change you'd have it by now. Look at how fast gay rights progressed and tell me that if you, as a nation, wanted something as simple as basic health care and fewer shootings something wouldn't have been done by now.

The fact is, America doesn't want to see its own faults and until some serious self-reflection happens it's only going to get worse.
Half of America does, half of America doesn't. It only takes a broadly distributed plurality of the country, plus an inert mass of immiserized people not participating in politics, is enough to bock a lot of action.

All this complexity is of course entirely suppressed when you try to imagine a whole country as if it were just one guy.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-05-21 04:26pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-05-21 03:24pm
Half of America does, half of America doesn't. It only takes a broadly distributed plurality of the country, plus an inert mass of immiserized people not participating in politics, is enough to bock a lot of action.

All this complexity is of course entirely suppressed when you try to imagine a whole country as if it were just one guy.
I'm just kind of boggling at the idea that the U.S. hasn't change much since WW2.

The key phrase is really "it's not that simple."

A lot of this "the U.S. sucks" is kind of weird coming from countries with 90% white populations. Meanwhile, Texas will have to (and already has for years) contend with an ever emerging Hispanic population. This won't mean conservatism is going to disappear, but there ARE going to be huge shifts as both they and white millennials are courted by both parties since a lot of the issues white Boomers are enamored too just don't matter to millennials. Ignoring Hispanics would be bad enough, but it will become political suicide to target them such as the way a guy like Trump does/did.

Most likely due to less emphasis on Religion, young minorities find themselves increasingly in support of gay marriage or just gay rights in general, mirroring their white counter-parts. Or more to the point: they don't care if gays marry or not. It's not an issue for them. Anymore than "we think women should be allowed to vote" is an issue today.

Gun Control is actually setup to a be Stump issue here in the near future. I doubt banning will ever be on the table, but millenials don't really adhere to the "God and Guns" bullshit, so they will be willing to deal with restrictions while keeping their gun. But honestly, Democrats are going to need to learn how to sell gun control. Targeting specific weapons isn't likely to play. Think about the popularity of the AR-15 and how many, especially younger, gun owners have one. Now imagine stumping that these guns make you a dangerous killer or close enough.

Republicans will ALSO have to learn to sell gun control (and possibly still suck NRA teet) because the "God and Guns" bullshit doesn't play even with many young conservatives. If anything, they will probably end up arguing over the details of HOW MUCH gun control is needed.

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Gandalf » 2018-05-21 06:03pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-05-21 04:26pm
A lot of this "the U.S. sucks" is kind of weird coming from countries with 90% white populations.
Huh?
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-05-21 07:33pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-05-21 06:03pm
TheFeniX wrote:
2018-05-21 04:26pm
A lot of this "the U.S. sucks" is kind of weird coming from countries with 90% white populations.
Huh?
I meant to cut that line of thought out completely because it's off-topic and more of a side thought. But I'll roll with it: my point was that I've found it weird that I look at some place like Canada and it makes perfect sense they really don't understand the U.S. Canada being hugely white isn't really all that relevant as they aren't a monoculture, but I was ranting into a side topic about the greater gun control issue (which is heavily race related) and that Canadians really don't understand race relations in the U.S. because they don't deal with it. They have this little lens into what they think racism is like in the U.S. Hell, I've seen this mentality in other U.S. citizens who live in their little gentrified enclaves of liberal superiority.

Kind of a non-issue as someone can still have an opinion without dealing with an issue, but it was segwaying into Simon_Jester's comment about "half of America does" which I took as "liberals = good ; conservatives = bad" which I was then going to point out how "hilarious" it is that the most segregated school district in the U.S. is in the liberaltopia of New York City. And it's astonishingly segregated. And also mentioned how minorities action-ed to help get Obama elected bit them in the ass when it came to Prop 8.

But I am also prone to missing Jester's points, so it was another excuse to drop the line of thought.

Either way, it was an off-topic rant and it was getting long, as the insanity that is a place as large and as diverse with tons of shitty history as the U.S. is going to be when discussing nearly any "I can't believe they feel that way" topic. This country has seen radical shifts since even I've been alive. The idea it is some kind of rigid system which fights all change is actually laughable. Just look at only the POLITICAL shifts since 9/11 and it falls apart. The political landscape has to look completely alien to a Baby Boomer not looking back on the past with thick rose colored glasses.

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Jub » 2018-05-21 09:03pm

Broomstick wrote:
2018-05-21 03:08pm
It's not that I couldn't do anything, it's that what I was able to do had no effect.
That's precisely why I'm not going to try to point fingers at any one person, it's just strange to see how slowly and awkwardly the US has changed next to her nearest neighbors both geographically, GDP per capita, and political affiliation wise since the end of WWII. I'd love to see a fully fleshed out paper about the possible reasons (rapid status change from a middle power to a superpower, the cold war, isolation from other nations, etc.) for this difference in rates of change.

-----
Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-05-21 03:24pm
Half of America does, half of America doesn't. It only takes a broadly distributed plurality of the country, plus an inert mass of immiserized people not participating in politics, is enough to bock a lot of action.

All this complexity is of course entirely suppressed when you try to imagine a whole country as if it were just one guy.
Doesn't every country have their own divides on how things should progress? Canada has some serious regional and cultural divides that most Americans probably don't realize. British Columbia, the third most populous province, feels ignored and overridden by Ontario and Quebec while also not fitting in with the culture of Alberta and the prairie provinces, then you have the bread basket group of Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan, then you have Ontario and Quebec who are each their own voting bloc, and finally the Maritimes which have different concerns than any other part of the nation. Yet, we don't often sit deadlocked unable to put one foot after the other, is it because we lack a two-party system, that we never gave into the idea of strong state/provincial rights, or some other factor? I couldn't say.

-----

@TheFenix:

I think you have a skewed view of Canadian demographics. Our major cities are very mixed in terms of ethnicity and as a whole, as of 2016, we're nearly as mixed in terms of race as the US is. Plus we have Quebec which might be 'white' but is very much so not the same as any other region in Canada. I don't think this thread is the place to dig into this but I doubt ethnicity is the major factor in the differences between Canada and the US or the UK and the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... #Ethnicity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograph ... _ethnicity

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Tribble » 2018-05-21 10:13pm

To be fair, Canadian philosophy from the American Revolution onwards can be pretty summed up as "see what the USA is doing? Try not to do that". That's pretty much the one thing that most Canadians can agree on wholeheartedly.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-22 09:37pm

"Interesting" fact: the number of American students have died in school shootings this year is greater than the number of American soldiers killed.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-05-24 08:40am

Jub wrote:
2018-05-21 09:03pm
Doesn't every country have their own divides on how things should progress? Canada has some serious regional and cultural divides that most Americans probably don't realize. British Columbia, the third most populous province, feels ignored and overridden by Ontario and Quebec while also not fitting in with the culture of Alberta and the prairie provinces, then you have the bread basket group of Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan, then you have Ontario and Quebec who are each their own voting bloc, and finally the Maritimes which have different concerns than any other part of the nation. Yet, we don't often sit deadlocked unable to put one foot after the other, is it because we lack a two-party system, that we never gave into the idea of strong state/provincial rights, or some other factor? I couldn't say.
I would submit that it is, specifically, that the US has a two party system where one party has devolved into a bunch of demented closeted anarcho-capitalist-fundamentalist loonies.

The US's government wasn't this utterly fucking paralytic prior to about 1994 and arguably not prior to 2008. Since then, things have worsened rapidly and our policy responses to ongoing crises have been effectively locked in, but the period during which the government has been incapacitated and unable to oversee or channelize any meaningful social change isn't "since World War Two," it's more like "since the end of the Cold War."
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Zixinus » 2018-05-24 05:22pm

There are several parts of this, probably several that I don't know about, but two things stand out about this issue:

1. Party line. The very topic of gun control has become so politicized between "guns are a right" and "no mass shootings!" that no real discussion can happen. Both parties try to out-shout the other to the point where anyone who hasn't joined either party can't be heard. The problem isn't these two parties but that everyone has just accepted the situation, that these are the only two voices available. I am not saying that the two sides are equal, they are certainly not in political power but these two voices are entrenched. The situation has become standard party politics and institutionalized.

2. Gun control primarily comes around whenever a shooting happens, or rather, when a shooting becomes a news-cycle, mass-sensation story. Otherwise, attention to the topic just dies down. Thus the desire for gun control is thus sporadic. It does not help that gun control people are fragmented, as they are united by desire and outrage rather than any set policy.

Meanwhile, gun rights people have formed/hijacked the NRA and created an effective lobbying organization that works every day of the year. There is no real contender that opposes them. Those that buy guns also often pay the NRA, as they're usually hobbyists or otherwise emotionally (and possibly not rarely, I'd like to see numbers on this) invested in having a gun. It also helps that the NRA has a simple policy of blocking any regulation, which is good for its followers. This is also a feedback loop where you have a special interest of hobbyists.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-24 05:40pm

Tribble wrote:
2018-05-21 10:13pm
To be fair, Canadian philosophy from the American Revolution onwards can be pretty summed up as "see what the USA is doing? Try not to do that". That's pretty much the one thing that most Canadians can agree on wholeheartedly.
And its mostly worked for Canada, even if Canada is not nearly as distinct from America as a lot of Canadians might wish.

Still, I'm rather disturbed by the common Canadian tendency to look down on Americans as stupid and backward, and not just because of the obvious objection to nationalist stereotypes and prejudices. It feels like a way to pat oneself on the back for how superior one is while in fact being dangerously complacent.

The US has some unique cultural problems, but there is no country on Earth that is totally immune to subversion by internal extremists, whether gun nuts or some other variety. There is no nation that cannot descend into internal violence in the wrong circumstances. None. And the fastest way to make it happen is to embrace the complacent assumption that "It can never happen here."

Christ, I still remember how many people were so sure that Donald Trump could never get the Republican nomination. And then so sure that he could never win the White House. And now, no doubt, many of them are so sure that he can't win a second term. And I look at Canadians who are so sure that an Alt. Reich Trumpian government could never take control here, even as hate crimes and bigotry are surging here as everywhere and we have Doug Fucking Ford running in Ontario, and I want to scream at them in frustration.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-05-24 06:39pm

Zixinus wrote:
2018-05-24 05:22pm
Meanwhile, gun rights people have formed/hijacked the NRA and created an effective lobbying organization that works every day of the year. There is no real contender that opposes them. Those that buy guns also often pay the NRA, as they're usually hobbyists or otherwise emotionally (and possibly not rarely, I'd like to see numbers on this) invested in having a gun. It also helps that the NRA has a simple policy of blocking any regulation, which is good for its followers. This is also a feedback loop where you have a special interest of hobbyists.
Re: 'those that buy guns': yes and no.

A lot of gun owners are members of the NRA, but there are also a lot that aren't. The NRA claims to represent all gun owners, but in practice that usually just means 'white gun owners'.

There are a few different categories of gun owners.

--People who buy guns strictly to have something around for self defense. A lot of people of colour fall into this category. Women, as well. Least likely to join/pay the NRA. The exception may be the occasional PoC who likes to open-carry; I've run into a few, but I've never inquired.

--People who are casual shooters or occasional hunters. Less likely to join the NRA. May concur with NRA stuff, but take a step back when they say something extreme.

--More serious shooters or hunters/outdoors-persons. More likely to support the NRA.

--People who are all about teh gunz. Frequently collect as much as they shoot. Pretty much almost always a NRA supporter. Not that large in number, but very loud.

--then you have people who might own guns because it's part of the job description such as police or private security; NRA support will tend to be an individual thing in this case.

And of course there are a number of gun owners-- probably not the majority, but probably not that small a minority either-- who think the NRA is a bit too extreme. There are polls, IIRC, that show that even many gun owners are in favor of reasonable levels of gun control. The NRA is opposed to... well... pretty much ANY gun control.

Probably the safest way to think of the NRA is that it's a political lobbying organization that *says* it represents gun owners, but in general tends to be much more a right wing conservative organization in general, funded and supported by large gun corporations.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-24 07:10pm

The NRA has already branched out far beyond simply advocating gun rights (even beyond the extent that a lot of gun owners want them to, as you noted), and are essentially a general Trumpian/Alt. Reich propaganda outlet at this point. Here's a good video on the subject, courtesy of John Oliver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEcbagW4O-s

They're also, incidentally, currently caught up in the Mueller investigation over their ties to the Russian government, and Russia attempting to use them as a go-between to Donald Trump and other US conservatives:

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/01/59007694 ... s-revealed

In short, the NRA is not really a gun rights group. They're a militant/propaganda arm of the Republican Party/the Trump White House. All of their actions should be viewed in that context.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-05-24 07:47pm

Oh, and regarding the gun control thing: yeah, it's not a single movement, which is a big part of the problem. The pro-gun crowd on the other hand does have the NRA to band under, and tend to be much more coherent and cohesive as a movement. In a certain sense, the gun-rights movement has actually succeeded to a degree in that a large majority of gun owners are actually responsible, reasonable individuals who keep their guns safe and who practice common sense precautions. These responsible and reasonable individuals then suffer a certain understandable aggravation when people start spouting crap about outlawing bayonet lugs or high-capacity magazines or collapsible stocks... all of which tend to have zero relevance to mass shootings or other incidents, but are common targets of the gun-control crowd.

So in order to have realistic change as far as gun control goes, the gun-control types need to unify, and they need to have a coherent, reasonable set of goals that isn't simply 'ban ALL guns' and that will appeal to a reasonable percentage of gun owners.
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Re: Texas school shooting happening now

Post by Alferd Packer » 2018-05-26 12:10am

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-05-24 07:47pm
So in order to have realistic change as far as gun control goes, the gun-control types need to unify, and they need to have a coherent, reasonable set of goals that isn't simply 'ban ALL guns' and that will appeal to a reasonable percentage of gun owners.
I was actually thinking on this, and it also occurred to me that the vagueness of the gun control movement is indeed a problem. Lurching from bump stocks to high-capacity magazines and on and on are not the actions of a coherent movement. Rather, there should be a fringe group whose sole, stated purpose is the universal disarmament of the civilian population of the United States--an anti-NRA, if you will. This group should be well-funded, organized, willing and able to mobilize at anytime there is gun violence in national consciousness. Further, they should be ready to protest any expansion of gun rights in any jurisdiction(local, state, federal), much like the NRA does whenever curtailment is proposed.

Because there is no organized zealotry on one side, the zealots on the other side can steer the debate without serious opposition. Having equally loud voices at both sides of the fringe drowns out both, and allows the out-of-hand dismissal of at least some of more outrageous fringe positions. Give the NRA an actual boogeyman to fight, and they will waste time doing so, in lieu of blocking moderate reform. Then, possibly, a sensible, consensus-based approach can result in positive change that will leave the majority satisfied, while the fringes continue to yell past each other.
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