Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-05-04 01:38am

Oh and now that I remember another person. The notion that his European ancestry makes him superior to Chinese because they did a lot of shit including fucking over China presumably and inventing a ton of stuff disregarding our own innovations and culture.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Vendetta » 2018-05-04 05:58am

Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-04 01:23am
I suppose it depends on where you go, but I would not be surprised if you go somewhere that is predominately white, you will encounter it. I can only really speak for NYC which generally has more problems with racists involving Jews, Hispanics, and Muslims. They are the focus now so to speak and plus Asians tend to get a pass. Also keep in mind, I am an introvert so my encounters with people is severely limited. But even so, I have met people who made fun of the accent and did the teeth and eye shit. Or kept thinking I was from a different Asian country. These assholes tend to be from New Jersey or Long Island where white suburbia reign I find. Or a white boss of my who thought I and my fellow Hispanic and black managers stole money from the safe rather than the white guy who counts the money no less before he deposits it all at the bank. But guess who gets interrogated? Us color folk. (turned out it was the security guard that they had to catch on camera, who must've figured out the pin). Or even a good close liberal friend who would use the Asian drivers are shit, when frankly a bunch of American drivers are shit themselves so why single us the fuck out? Or another friend who said I can't be a real Chinese person because I didn't have the stereotypical accent they hear on TV.
What this is actually telling us is that your experiences are much closer to other Americans than to mainland Chinese.

That's the crux of this whole thing. As a Chinese American your schooling, socialisation, and experiences which indelibly affect the lens through which you view culture as a construct are more American than anything else. You have more in common with those fellow hispanic and black colleagues than you do someone doing an equivalent job in Beijing.

Which means that a proprietary attitude towards Chinese culture seems hollow, just as it does from Jeremy Lam.

(Irony: If the Qipao has any cultural significance it's as a protest against men policing women's dress....)

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by PoisonSymic » 2018-05-04 06:50am

I think there's a big difference between wearing clothing in general that is associated with a particular culture, and wearing clothing that has special significance -- something that is sacred and/or has to be earned.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by ray245 » 2018-05-04 09:06am

Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-03 10:00pm
Would your position then be that we Chinese, Japanese, etc wrongly appropriated (or for that matter forced to wear) the western business suit and not that because it was seen as a good and proper thing to wear?

As I said, it should be on our terms and if it is seen and felt as something that is served only to make fun of us, then it is wrong because it's not going to be something that will necessarily be seen as being COOL to do. Frankly, at the end of the day, you and I were not there personally and even the Twitter user who blast it to begin with. We don't know exactly how it went down at the prom to judge EITHER WAY which is why I'm giving this a pass and why I'm telling you to shut up (and also you repeating ad nauseous is getting annoying.)

Ha, I like how it autocorrect to nauseous instead of nauseam, but that's how I am starting to feel too.
Considering how much influence colonialisation/imperialisation had on South-east Asia and East Asia itself, where people have to adopt western-style clothing in part to look respectable on the world stage, I don't see this as an "equal" exchange or influence.

It makes little sense to wear a full business suit in places like Southeast Asia, because the climate does not suit it. If you chose to wear traditional clothes in SEA, it would not have been seen as acceptable for formal events, especially formal business events.
Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-03 11:15pm
Let me rephrase that, if it is only served to make fun of us, then it is basically a one time thing. A joke to be made fun of and discarded until next time they want to rub it in our faces. It's not a situation where someone is going to take seriously and think it's cool to wear on a regular basis to make other people think it's a trend to catch on.

Now prom is an important day for high school kids and having a wonderful and beautiful dress is tremendously important to a young lady so I find it unlikely she meant any offense. She does look wonderful in it. As for the gesture, maybe they didn't know any better and meant well or they were actual dicks talking shit before and after the photo. Whatever, we weren't there, but as I said, I give a pass and that guy on Twitter should have as well.

Anyway, as a Chinese/Taiwanese American, you don't get to tell me what I write on my social media account either and I'm not going to note that I only speak for ABCs and treat myself or any other of us as second class Chinese either. Surgery aside, I don't get to take off this skin however Americanized I may be. Plus, China doesn't have access to Twitter or Facebook anyway. lol
And if you cannot normalise non-western clothings, you are only making them mere "cultural clothings" and limits the ability of minority culture to have a wider impact on American culture. I want more non-Chinese to feel comfortable wearing "Chinese" clothings and in a variety of situation. If this can get rid of the stupidity of wearing western-style suit (and dresses) as the only "cross-cultural" formal clothing, things will be much better.
Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-04 12:07am
I'm pretty livid about this so let me post this and you can fling whatever shit you want at me, I don't care. This needs to be said. My father was born in China and moved as a baby to Taiwan after the Civil War. My mother is from Taiwan and her lineage came from China as well. If you really want a go at it. I'm going to assume it's highly likely that I'm more Chinese than your motherfucking Singaporean ass. So don't act like you speak for mainland China anymore than I or the rest of us do.
Are we comparing who is more "Chinese" now? Because you know what? My mother is from Taiwan as well and I am still in close contact with my relatives in Taiwan ( who went to Taiwan after the civil war) AND relatives that were left in China.

I'm not stupid enough to say I am speaking for mainland China ( because Singaporean Chinese have become culturally different from mainland Chinese in many ways), nor would I say I'm more Chinese than anyone in Singapore (just because my mother's family is from Taiwan and I had a grandfather and great-grandfather that actually fought for China during WW2).

You as a Chinese-American claiming to be more "Chinese" than me doesn't leave me with a good impression of you. Culturally speaking, I see you as an American first, and not as a Chinese.
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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-05-04 09:28am

What this is actually telling us is that your experiences are much closer to other Americans than to mainland Chinese.
That's the crux of this whole thing. As a Chinese American your schooling, socialisation, and experiences which indelibly affect the lens through which you view culture as a construct are more American than anything else. You have more in common with those fellow hispanic and black colleagues than you do someone doing an equivalent job in Beijing.
Of course, to say otherwise would be stupid. However, this does not mean that we would understand less of our own culture especially when it is in regards to a dress that is not necessarily modern for any us, mainlanders or not, to be so far remove from it.
Which means that a proprietary attitude towards Chinese culture seems hollow, just as it does from Jeremy Lam.
Let's be clear, our difference in experience does not mean we do not know our own history. Or perhaps you would have it that mainlander Chinese who lived through the Cultural Revolution would certainly not have the same ideas either given the rash of historical destruction happening throughout that time period following blindly Mao and communist Chinese propaganda, would then have more of a right to say what is good or not than us Chinese Americans.
Considering how much influence colonialisation/imperialisation had on South-east Asia and East Asia itself, where people have to adopt western-style clothing in part to look respectable on the world stage, I don't see this as an "equal" exchange or influence.

It makes little sense to wear a full business suit in places like Southeast Asia, because the climate does not suit it. If you chose to wear traditional clothes in SEA, it would not have been seen as acceptable for formal events, especially formal business events.
So you do agree then that context in how it is adopted matters.
And if you cannot normalise non-western clothings, you are only making them mere "cultural clothings" and limits the ability of minority culture to have a wider impact on American culture. I want more non-Chinese to feel comfortable wearing "Chinese" clothings and in a variety of situation. If this can get rid of the stupidity of wearing western-style suit (and dresses) as the only "cross-cultural" formal clothing, things will be much better.
I don't want to limit our spread of culture nor I'm sure the Twitter user causing all the fuss to make you post this old article to begin with. However, the toga is clearly not going to spread beyond the usual parties on the college campus. Context does matter in how things spread.
You as a Chinese-American claiming to be more "Chinese" than me doesn't leave me with a good impression of you. Culturally speaking, I see you as an American first, and not as a Chinese.
As I read you as Singaporean more than Chinese, go figured. That's my fucking point. Read again, I said you have no more right than I do. People within their own country can't even agree on things with what's right or wrong on their end, but moving it another step to say that ex-patriots certainly don't have a say is wrong as well. Especially if you're doing so just because we're Americans.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-05-04 09:47am

By the way, it can be said that Taiwan is more Chinese culturally than mainlanders because of the communist influences and destruction involved. So if anything, Taiwan, the KMT, etc are put on the sidelines yet again for the views of the mainlanders. ;)

Edit: But I digress on a separate issue.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by ray245 » 2018-05-04 09:55am

Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-04 09:28am
I don't want to limit our spread of culture nor I'm sure the Twitter user causing all the fuss to make you post this old article to begin with. However, the toga is clearly not going to spread beyond the usual parties on the college campus. Context does matter in how things spread.
Roman culture is dead and buried. Chinese culture is not, especially given that the qipao was a modern invention. My point is no one should have a right to be offended over Chinese cultural products being adopted by non-Chinese, when these kinds of stuff are designed for mass market consumption.
As I read you as Singaporean more than Chinese, go figured. That's my fucking point. Read again, I said you have no more right than I do. People within their own country can't even agree on things with what's right or wrong on their end, but moving it another step to say that ex-patriots certainly don't have a say is wrong as well. Especially if you're doing so just because we're Americans.
Except you don't have an exclusive right to claim anything on behalf of Chinese culture. Put it this way, you as American-Chinese gains you massive advantages if you are living East/SE Asia. The fact that you have an American-education, speaks with an American accent allows you gain more attention and respect from many potential employers in the region than some Chinese-speaking Singaporean from a middle/lower income family that can't afford to travel beyond Malaysia.

Your cultural worldview is American, and not "Chinese". Sure, you may be able to celebrate some Chinese festivals and speak Mandarin at home, but how your formulate your thought-process, your manner of speaking and so forth is American. Your framework to talk about culture is from a minority in American talking against the majority. That's not true for someone from a Chinese-majority region/county.

What may benefit Chinese-Americans damages other overseas Chinese and reduces "Chinese culture" into a minority culture. Just because Chinese-Americans are a minority in the US does not mean Chinese outside of US are a minority.
Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-04 09:47am
By the way, it can be said that Taiwan is more Chinese culturally than mainlanders because of the communist influences and destruction involved. So if anything, Taiwan, the KMT, etc are put on the sidelines yet again for the views of the mainlanders. ;)

Edit: But I digress on a separate issue.
And I can also make the argument that Southeast Asian Chinese can be more "culturally" Chinese than Taiwanese Chinese because a number of Chinese religion and customs survived there for centuries.

Things like the Nine-Emperor Gods and a variety of Chinese martial arts form survived in Southeast Asia, while they did not survive the political upheaval from the Chinese civil war/retreat to Taiwan.
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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-05-04 10:21am

Except you don't have an exclusive right to claim anything on behalf of Chinese culture.
Excuse me, what you are saying is that we don't have a right to express anything at all just because we are not from mainland China. We are automatically considered less knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture just because we don't live there 24/7/365 as shown in this thread. As I wrote earlier, even I don't think Jeremy Lam is right, but I am not going to say he doesn't have a right to express it from his vantage point either. And we are not going to start writing, "speaking as a Chinese American", just to settle your whims. Looking at his goddamn Twitter account, this guy only has 2000 followers which is still a relative nobody, so would this have really been any news at all if a media outlet didn't decide to pick it up and run away with it?
Put it this way, you as American-Chinese gains you massive advantages if you are living East/SE Asia. The fact that you have an American-education, speaks with an American accent allows you gain more attention and respect from many potential employers in the region than some Chinese-speaking Singaporean from a middle/lower income family that can't afford to travel beyond Malaysia.

Your cultural worldview is American, and not "Chinese". Sure, you may be able to celebrate some Chinese festivals and speak Mandarin at home, but how your formulate your thought-process, your manner of speaking and so forth is American. Your framework to talk about culture is from a minority in American talking against the majority. That's not true for someone from a Chinese-majority region/county.

What may benefit Chinese-Americans damages other overseas Chinese and reduces "Chinese culture" into a minority culture. Just because Chinese-Americans are a minority in the US does not mean Chinese outside of US are a minority.
Now this sounds like this is more out of jealousy. You're basically saying we have less of a right to say anything because we dominate your candy asses elsewhere in the world.
And I can also make the argument that Southeast Asian Chinese can be more "culturally" Chinese than Taiwanese Chinese because a number of Chinese religion and customs survived there for centuries.

Things like the Nine-Emperor Gods and a variety of Chinese martial arts form survived in Southeast Asia, while they did not survive the political upheaval from the Chinese civil war/retreat to Taiwan.
So in the end, who really has a say on what Chinese culture really is? :lol:
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by ray245 » 2018-05-04 04:15pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-05-04 10:21am
Excuse me, what you are saying is that we don't have a right to express anything at all just because we are not from mainland China. We are automatically considered less knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture just because we don't live there 24/7/365 as shown in this thread. As I wrote earlier, even I don't think Jeremy Lam is right, but I am not going to say he doesn't have a right to express it from his vantage point either. And we are not going to start writing, "speaking as a Chinese American", just to settle your whims. Looking at his goddamn Twitter account, this guy only has 2000 followers which is still a relative nobody, so would this have really been any news at all if a media outlet didn't decide to pick it up and run away with it?
Firstly, we live in an age of social media in which every single idiot can become a representative of a community by their stupidity alone. So the only way to moderate this would be to challenge and call him out for his stupidity and arrogance.

More to the point, Chinese-Americans can claim things on behalf of things that are Chinese-American, or cultures/customs that belong to the Chinese-American community. You can have your general Tsao chicken as an expression of Chinese-American food, but you cannot say this is representative of Chinese food as a whole.

Are you automatically less knowledgeable of Chinese history and culture just because you don't live in it? I don't think so, but the fact that you aren't living in it means you can't claim to wider Chinese culture and stuff as things that belong to you. Your ownership of culture is things that are American and Chinese-American, and not Chinese. Unless you are a first-generation migrant that grew up in those world, I don't think you can lay claim to those culture as part of yours.
Now this sounds like this is more out of jealousy. You're basically saying we have less of a right to say anything because we dominate your candy asses elsewhere in the world.
Does it matter if this is jealousy or not? You are treated differently and people see you as American as opposed to Chinese. The fact that you don't speak English with a Chinese or Singaporean accent is an advantage to you in global culture. If anything, your attitude reeks of "Chinese-American" privilege.
So in the end, who really has a say on what Chinese culture really is? :lol:
We can have a say based on our own cultural experience. However, I don't think anyone should claim to speak on behalf on the rest of the ethnic Chinese community worldwide. The last time someone tried to do this*, we ended up all sorts of problems for China and "overseas-Chinese)

*The KMT/ROC government tried to claim all ethnic Chinese in the world as Chinese citizens in the early 20th century. The impact of this is still felt of many overseas Chinese, particularly in places like Southeast Asia.
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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-05-05 05:31am

In regards to those poses she and her friends were in, apparently its from a comedy skit.

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Style/teen-d ... d=54866211
However, when asked about the group photo, Daum told ABC News the gesture was referring to “Papa Bless,” a pose inspired by Ethan Klein from h3h3 Productions, a popular Israeli-American comedy YouTube channel.

“At the time we were deciding on silly pictures, someone suggested those poses, so I just followed the crowd,” Daum said, “I see where [the critics] were coming from, but I don’t think they really got the full context.”
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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Solauren » 2018-05-05 08:45am

Wow, the internet is full of reactionary idiots that acknowledge facts only as it suits their needs.
SHOCKING.
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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Raw Shark » 2018-05-05 01:11pm

I wonder if this whole situation would've received less attention, or more, if the girl involved wasn't a total smokeshow. Discuss.

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Last edited by Raw Shark on 2018-05-05 01:17pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-05-05 01:15pm

Smokeshow? That like Smokin' hottie? You Yankees never cease to crack me up.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Raw Shark » 2018-05-05 01:18pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-05-05 01:15pm
Smokeshow? That like Smokin' hottie?
Yes.
TheFeniX wrote:
2018-05-05 01:15pm
You Yankees never cease to crack me up.
Thanks! I'll be here all week.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Ralin » 2018-05-08 12:11pm

Seems to me that something being left out here is that Chinese-Americans (and Asian-Americans in general) have the familiarity with American culture to recognize racist shit from other Americans that would be more likely to fly over a foreigner's head. I mean, Wong would rip my head off if I called him a Chinaman and with good reason, but a mainlander probably wouldn't get why that's insulting and inappropriate even if they spoke English fairly well.

Chinese-Americans may not have more right to define Chinese culture and how it should be treated than mainland Chinese or Singaporean Chinese, but they do generally have a better grasp of the context when it comes specifically to American takes on Chinese culture and artifacts thereof.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Xisiqomelir » 2018-05-08 11:40pm

Asian-Americans have I think a completely different notion of race relations than Asians do.

Looking forward to the insane drama that the upcoming movie adaptation of Crazy Rich Asians is going to unleash.

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Re: Chinese dress at US prom wins support in China after internet backlash

Post by Broomstick » 2018-05-09 12:44am

Ralin wrote:
2018-05-08 12:11pm
Chinese-Americans may not have more right to define Chinese culture and how it should be treated than mainland Chinese or Singaporean Chinese, but they do generally have a better grasp of the context when it comes specifically to American takes on Chinese culture and artifacts thereof.
Even if Chinese-American have a better grasp of racism in America it still does not make them infallible.
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