Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by loomer » 2018-02-28 09:38pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 09:31pm
loomer wrote:
2018-02-28 09:20pm
Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 09:18pm


Not at all, no. You're an idiot.
Well, that escalated quickly. Am I to then understand that it is your position that there is no commonly held distinction between revolvers, especially single-action revolvers, and semi-automatic magazine-fed handguns, fuckface?
Correct, the Colt .45 "Peacemaker" is not semi-automatic. Pretty much every revolver newer than the colt .45 is. I said so earlier in the thread.
Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-23 09:06pm
It may even say "semi-automatics", since liberals seem to have latched on to that term even though I'm pretty sure that they have no idea what it means. I've heard liberals say that they don't want to ban all guns, just the dangerous ones like "semi-automatics", "sniper rifles" and "pump-action shotguns" (which are at least a real thing). So... single action revolvers would be left I guess?
That was just last Friday. Try to keep up please.
Just to make sure one last time. It is your position that there is no commonly held distinction between semi-automatic magazine-fed handguns and revolvers?
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2018-02-28 09:51pm

There is a "commonly held" distinction between revolvers and other semiautomatic pistols.

Those people who commonly hold that distinction piss pro-gun people off and make them think that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by loomer » 2018-02-28 09:55pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 09:51pm
There is a "commonly held" distinction between revolvers and other semiautomatic pistols.

Those people who commonly hold that distinction piss pro-gun people off and make them think that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them.
And is it not the case that this commonly held distinction - which you called me an idiot for suggesting exists, so I'll thank you to retract that statement - is and has been regularly reinforced in pro-gun magazines and websites, especially articles like 'should you buy a revolver or a semi-automatic'?
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Broomstick » 2018-02-28 10:29pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 09:04pm
Broomstick wrote:
2018-02-28 01:00am
Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 12:15am
Imagine if after 9/11 one side and the media the media kept showing pictures of Gulfstream IIs, calling them "single engine Cessnas"
The media actually does do shit like that.
And it pisses you off and makes you think that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with those people, doesn't it?
No, it makes think they're ignorant and I want to correct them. I actually have had reasonable conversations with nervous nellies. Don't assume I'm going to react like you.
and saying that they were invented by the Nazis solely to bomb people, and figure out how willing your side would be to address those people's concerns then.
Except no one is claiming the Nazis invented guns.
The "invented" the assault rifle, similar to the way that they "invented" the jet. So people call it a nazi weapon. If people called jets nazi weapons, you'd be pissed off and think that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with those people, wouldn't you?
Um.... no. The Nazis really did do a lot to advance aviation, jets and rockets in both world wars. That isn't a secret. Also, it's not like I fly jets anyway. I have occasionally had to correct people on that, but it's more often ignorance than malice.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Broomstick » 2018-02-28 10:34pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 09:09pm
Broomstick wrote:
2018-02-28 08:58pm
Question for you, because I'm seeing this on other forums - why do you need a semi-auto anything? If banning semi-autos could reduce the carnage how do you justify owning them is basically how the reasoning seems to go. How would you answer such a person? I don't own a semi-auto gun so I don't feel I could give a decent answer to that, but maybe you could?
The .38 revolver you are thinking of buying is semi-automatic. This is what I'm talking about. You really have no idea what guns you want to ban or why, and it makes people pissed off and think that it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation.
It's a double-action revolver. It uses mechanical action to load the next bullet into firing position. That's not what 99% of people mean by "semi-automatic". That's for guns that use the energy from a fired bullet to advance the next one into position, using things like capturing recoil energy or using the blowback. Next you'll be telling me a pump-action shotgun is "semi-automatic". I've never heard anyone conflate revolvers and semi-automatic pistols other than you.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2018-02-28 11:26pm

So when the law gets written and passed that bans semiautomatic firearms, is a judge going to go "whoops, it obviously doesn't mean revolvers"?

Just to be clear, I don't think that anyone needs a gun either, but I think that liberals are trying to start a new "war on drugs", but with guns instead. It's not well thought out, it's going to create more problems than it solves, (a thousand mini-wacos in the middle of suburbia to start with, worse problems later) and I really don't think it's going to work.

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by aerius » 2018-02-28 11:32pm

Broomstick wrote:
2018-02-28 10:34pm
It's a double-action revolver. It uses mechanical action to load the next bullet into firing position. That's not what 99% of people mean by "semi-automatic". That's for guns that use the energy from a fired bullet to advance the next one into position, using things like capturing recoil energy or using the blowback.
Yes. However, the end result is the same; the gun fires one bullet per trigger pull until it's out of bullets with no action required beyond pulling the trigger, you don't need to cock, advance, or do anything between rounds.

And if you happen to have speed loaders for the revolver it's effectively the same as changing magazines on a semi-automatic pistol.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-03-01 01:34am

Fenix, I'm not part of a shared hivemind with Broomstick.

My point is that the situation on gun control is becoming stupid and obnoxious unto gun owners in part because of the way the issue is handled politically.

It's like forest fires. It used to be, the official policy was to put out all forest fires as soon as possible. Over a few decades, people noticed that the fires were getting more and more intense and harder to fight. It turns out that if you don't allow low-intensity fires to burn through once in a while, the sheer weight of underbrush and dead wood builds up until it sustains much hotter, fiercer wildfires than would otherwise be possible. Large trees that could have survived a low-intensity fire are instead destroyed in the more intense fire, and in the long run the ecosystem sustains more damage.

For the last several decades, the focus for gun rights advocates in practice, as implemented in national politics, has been "block everything." Mental health is the problem? The NRA turns around and supports politicians who will slash mental health services too. Existing laws not being enforced is the problem? Suppose the existing laws are enforced and the result is the screws getting tightened on largely legitimate gun owners, as is bound to happen to some unlucky people. The NRA is likely to scream bloody murder. A debate arises over whether high-capacity magazines in semi-automatic rifles are unreasonably dangerous? The NRA screams and blocks a ban on said rifles. A debate arises over how to keep masses of pistols from crossing jurisdiction lines to flood high-crime neighborhoods with handguns? NRA screaming.

Everything that might naturally burn out some of the random clutter and bad ideas and ideological weeds growing up around this issue is being suppressed and stamped out by the NRA. As such, the NRA has created a situation where every school shooting leads to demented crap ideas being suggested along with the good ones. And in many cases are actively more likely to gain traction.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Broomstick » 2018-03-01 09:38am

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2018-02-28 11:26pm
So when the law gets written and passed that bans semiautomatic firearms, is a judge going to go "whoops, it obviously doesn't mean revolvers"?
Obviously, it depends on how the law is written.
Just to be clear, I don't think that anyone needs a gun either, but I think that liberals are trying to start a new "war on drugs", but with guns instead.
Do not lump all liberals in with the anti-gun crowd. While there is overlap they are not the same thing

This is nothing new, the anti-gun crowd have been trying to ban guns for decades.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-01 10:29am

Is Wiki's definition of Semi-Automatic Firearms wrong?

Because this is the first I've heard of Revolvers counting ever.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Broomstick » 2018-03-01 11:15am

It's a fear tactic of the pro-gun camp, that the antis, who they deride as ignorant, are going to take the worst possible definitions ever when writing laws. Which ignores that a lot of anti-are so ignorant they think "semi-auto" and "big scary rifle" are exactly the same, and that it won't be just the antis involved in legislation.

Really, I don't get why people with multiple powerful guns are so pants-wetting afraid. I'm not referring to people in this thread, I'm talking about people I've met when entering the gun world, who's ONLY means of protecting themselves and feeling safe is guns, guns, and guns.

I had a conversation with one yesterday about how at one point in my life my neighborhood went to shit and instead of getting a gun I moved. He went into full hysteria mode, face flushed, eyes wide, shouting "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO MOVE YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO GET A GUN AND DEFEND YOURSELF NO ONE CAN FORCE YOU TO MOVE BLAH BLAH BLAH". I was renting a shoebox apartment at that point which I had no intention of staying in long term - WTF was wrong with moving? No one forced me, I chose to, but to this guy moving from a shitty studio apartment was the wrong thing to do, I should have gotten a gun instead. I made the choice that was best for me at that point in time. Which is how it should be.

Just as there's a group of antis that want to take options away from people (the option to purchase a weapon) there's a group in the pros that want to do the same thing (the only right choice to them is get a gun).

The reality is that laws are going to be forged somewhere between those two extremes.

Living in the US owning a gun is an option. One of many from my viewpoint. None of which are perfect or an absolute guarantee of safety.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Zaune » 2018-03-01 11:32am

Broomstick wrote:
2018-03-01 11:15am
Really, I don't get why people with multiple powerful guns are so pants-wetting afraid. I'm not referring to people in this thread, I'm talking about people I've met when entering the gun world, who's ONLY means of protecting themselves and feeling safe is guns, guns, and guns.
Paranoia and acute social anxiety don't have to make sense. Some of those people would probably have legitimate panic attacks if they forgot their gun when they went out to the convenience store down the road because they're just that afraid a horde of gangbangers, terrorists or lizard-people are waiting to pounce as soon as they let their guard down.

And frankly, I sympathise with them and wish they would realise they need to get some professional help, because I know from experience that it's a shitty way to live.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by loomer » 2018-03-01 11:33am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-01 10:29am
Is Wiki's definition of Semi-Automatic Firearms wrong?

Because this is the first I've heard of Revolvers counting ever.
We apparently live in a mirror universe in which only the most far reaching and non-conventional definitions are acceptable, and in which it is acceptable to insult people who are aware of the commonly used definitions. Somehow the well enshrined popular distinction between the revolver and the box-fed semi-automatic handgun has vanished overnight, and all colloquial use to the contrary is the work of prominent anti-gun advocates like Massad Ayoob, whose articles on firearms for Backwoods Home magazine and similar publications were clearly all secretly long-term anti-gun psyops.

Because that's the standard of debate this forum exists for. :wanker:
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-01 11:55am

aerius wrote:
2018-02-28 12:16pm
Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-02-28 08:20am
I would expect that in general, the gun regulations that really do something to limit mass shootings aren't so much the bans as they are the controls. Restricting how you can and cannot transfer guns, who you can and cannot sell them to, and how they can and cannot be stored.

Along the lines of what I was getting at earlier, a society that controls guns effectively has much less need to ban them. A society that refuses to control guns effectively is very likely to see the unarmed majority try to rise up and disarm the armed minority, for their own safety.
Question. Considering how completely broken every system is in America, do you really think you guys can come up with an effective gun control system?

Your education, healthcare, judicial, law enforcement, environmental protection, and damn near every large scale system is dysfunctional compared to other countries. I would be shocked if whatever gun controls you come up with is any less broken.
A rather cynical question because with that approach at any governmental enforcement measure is pointless.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-01 12:07pm

Ignore the above post please, I did not notice that the discussion has moved beyond.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-01 12:08pm

Eh, still a valid point, well expressed.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-03-01 01:46pm

You guys are going to have fun here. Most mag-fed pistols (Glocks, Beretta 92fs, etc) are "automatic pistols." There are even Double-Action only automatic pistols (the gun will not "recock" itself after a round is fired, requiring a full trigger depression to both cock and release the hammer a la DAO Revolvers. There's also automatic revolvers, though rare, in the Mateba Auto-Revolver. So much overlap with the evolved tech.

The problem generally is made worse by gun manufacturers coming up with their own naming conventions. Also weirdness like Glocks being called Double-action only (DAO) when they are only single-action pistols, with an automatic action.

Semi-auto doesn't equate to automatic, that's talking about the action. Semi-auto equates to Full(y)-Auto, which is talking about the fire-rate/selection.
Broomstick wrote:
2018-02-28 08:58pm
You are missing my point. I not arguing that it's right or correct, I arguing that is the way it is.
Change the way people think maybe? Because I'm not going to argue the world doesn't work that way, but I don't care to argue that anyway. People were so stupid/uninformed they ran unpatched XP machines without (at the LEAST) a NAT router and caused billions in damages over the years. You couldn't really help these types help themselves, but it doesn't make them any less stupid/uninformed.

Now, imagine those were the people trying to dictate IT Security.
No, it's about yielding on shit that doesn't matter, like the color of a gun or whether or not you can fly over a particular uncommon building, and saving your resources for what really matters.
That's dumb. I don't give credit to people fooled by (in this case literally) a new coat of paint. Those people are fucking dangerous.
1. as that one FFL is doing, raising the age to 21 to buy a firearm.
And what's wrong with that?
My whole list was "shit we can talk about." I thought that was clear. If that colloquialism didn't translate, I apoligize. My 4 point list was IMO valid responses to the situation, thus worth actually debating, since they have issues but seem to be workable into sensible gun legislation.
Actually, "ban AR-15" is sounding very good to a lot of people. You might want to address that one seriously.
I take uninformed morons very seriously, look at Trump. But I'm not going to argue the logical validity of an admittedly emotion response.
If giving the opposite side a "warm fuzzy" gets you something you want then you might want to rethink your position on "warm fuzzies".
Yea, I do this with friends, family, my wife, my kid. I don't base the rule of law on it.
Question for you, because I'm seeing this on other forums - why do you need a semi-auto anything? If banning semi-autos could reduce the carnage how do you justify owning them is basically how the reasoning seems to go. How would you answer such a person? I don't own a semi-auto gun so I don't feel I could give a decent answer to that, but maybe you could?
If IF IF it could reduce the carnage. That's all I ever get. "It could reduce the carnage, so cough up thousands of dollars of your property without compensation which you, and millions of other Americans, go their entire lives without ever using one to hurt someone. This is because Law Enforcement and the Legislature has failed so hard, we need to hold the gun owner accountable." Because "logic."

But we aren't talking that. We're talking about giving up something to make people feel better: Ban a specific thing because it might make people feel better? No. That's dumb. It's so fucking dumb. It leads to so much stupid shit in society. So fuck that.

And then, the best part, is they bring out "Well, X country did Y and they have less crime than America." And you look at the statistics and it reads "COUNTRY WITH LESS CRIME THAN THE US BANS GUNS! COUNTRY CONTINUES TO HAVE LESS CRIME! SUCCESS!" Australia was weird last I checked either way since most gun crime (even the non-suicide stuff) was done with legally owned longguns. They had the complete opposite gun related problems we did: legal gun ownership was shown to be a problem.

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-01 04:01pm

A note on my own position:

I believe that a gun is just a tool. A dangerous tool that needs to be handled responsibly. None the less, it is a tool that a civilian has legitemate uses for. Therefore, I believe only people shown to be responsible should be allowed to have them. I do not like the idea of people provenly dangerous and irresponsible buying firearms. Of any type. So gun regulation seems a common-sense measure to me.

But:
- I don't live in the US and I don't know the lifestlye or conditions there. Not first-hand or from in-depth research.
- I also believe that if a law is passed because of bad people abusing something, that law should not punish those that did not abuse that thing. The many should not be punished for the actions of the few.
- From the latter, I do not like laws passed as purely reactionary measures. For example, some idiot uses a large knife or tomahawk to commit a crime. There is a reactionary law passed to ban those tools, even though similar tools (say, kitchen knife) already existed and the large majority of users of those tools did not do this. The same could be said about swords and a dozen other tools.
- A law or change in greater system of the law, should be made on reasons that stand on their own. Not from a reaction of a single event, but should be an answer to a problem that existed even if that event did not take place. If not made to answer multiple problems by taking care of a root cause.
- Seperate from the above, but still relevant: I do not believe that guns cause spree shootings, insofar as guns create shooters. Rather, there are psychos that are created from other reasons that grab whatever means they can, whether they are knives, guns or cars. Overly easy access to guns will significantly contribute to the problem but that will not stop the creation of psychos, nor does it truly answer the problem of the creation of the psychos. Which is an often-neglected part of the argument.

I will be talking to Broomstick because we had our own discussion going.
No doubt this is going to make some heads explode, but I'm actually OK with turning gun ownership into a privilege. We have a lot of privileges in this country that are widely used - driving a vehicle, for example. I decided to learn to fly airplanes. I would have no problems making gun ownership as difficult (or easy, depending on your perspective) as either one of those.
Then you need to say this out on front as what you want, clearly and openly. This is what I have a problem with.

Not chasing down individual models (AR-15) or scary features (foregrips!) or magazines sizes, or whatever terms the current news cycle latched unto. Not trying to make feel-good measures but creating and be willing to create a substantial change and knowing what those changes will do.

You also have to accept, up front, that you are going to do this at the expense of a significant number of people. The constitution does not need to be changed to change the country and you will be changing the country.

These people aren't just going to be crazy gun-nuts that hold unto their guns as security blankets. There will be a large number of legitimate and (arguably) responsible (or at least non problem-causing) owners whom will at least be seriously inconvenienced (including a large impact on their personal safety and lifestlye) or ,under the new conditions of which a gun is eligible privilege, forced to give them up.

You also have to accept that this is going to need to be a long-term and in-depth plan: not simply just pushing one bill through, but an entire reform on how the country handles gun regulations in every state and enforcement. It also needs funds set aside for a buyback program (and other expenses) and creating bureaucracy for handling the new influx of firearms owners will create. But most of all, it needs a legal framework created and established for legitimate uses that already exists (hunting, collecting for historical purposes, competition shooting, etc.).
So... what happened after Australia made changes to their laws?
I ask you to re-read that section of my post, because I think you misunderstood what I am trying to say. I am not opposing that this happens or that it does not have beneficial effects. I am pointing out that this is a big change.

To answer your question: What happened was a substantial and wide disarmament after not just banning an entire type of weapon (as opposed to a specific model or certain features), but also an implementation of a new system of requirements and enforcement. That is, exactly what a lot of gun owners fear in the US.

Oh, and a mayor point: Australia at that point decided that you can't claim self-defense as a justifiable reason to own a gun in 1996. This is a rock-opposite of wide perception of guns in the US and many members here. Remember your earlier expression about yourself wanting a gun?

Also keep in mind that Australia did not have the same level of availability as the US does, nor the same culture. The new laws went in force because there was already wide disposition there for it, from both parties. There is also no domestic gun manufacturing industry. There were also still some shootings since 1996, although of noticable decrease in number and severity. The two that involve guns is the Monahs University shooting and Sydney hostage crisis.
Of course, in the US you do have some folks who have vowed to go down fighting. I acknowledge that's a problem. But they're ridiculous, maintaining they'll somehow take on the US government. They aren't. Or if they do, it will be curb-stomp battle. The time when civilian rifles could take on a government like the US are past. That reason for maintaining civilian gun ownership is no longer relevant in today's world.
These people are not really relevant, at least not to my point or the scenario I am talking. Either these people fold on their bluff or will be taken into custody. I am not concerned about crazies or those committed to act outside the law. I am concerned about normal people who will be affected and how.

Of course a third option exists in that if people want to keep guns as part of a milita, then legal requirements for the militia need to exist. Such as, actual commanders, inspections and training that includes discipline. And even a measure that the guns kept by the militia are kept like they should be in an army: either in a central location from which the militia would operate from or have a system of inspection. I don't recall exactly which nordic country it was (Switzerland I think) but it was cited as one where there was a large number of private citizens that owned guns. What crucial detail that was forgotten to be mentioned is that the guns were kept as part of a reserve army status and that while they were provided with a box (or so) of ammunition for the gun, that ammunition was sealed and there were regular (if infrequent) inspections whether that ammunition was sealed. That level of discipline.

But I doubt something that extensive would exist in the US.
Last edited by Zixinus on 2018-03-01 04:11pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-03-01 04:02pm

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/c ... 86304.html

Supposedly...
Cruz went in with only 10-round magazines because larger clips would not fit in his duffel bag, Book said.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-03-01 04:16pm

Broomstick wrote:
2018-02-28 12:51am
And I'm already on record that I'd be OK with gun laws more like Australia's than what we have. I doubt we'd be able to achieve it, but I'd be OK with it.
The funny thing about that is, Australia when they banned almost everything, forgot about lever action weapons; I guess because "gee, that's so old west, 1860s shit."

Then someone introduced a "high capacity" lever action shotgun in AUS that could be fired relatively fast:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-19/w ... ow/7945316

:P
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Zixinus » 2018-03-01 04:40pm

The funny thing about that is, Australia when they banned almost everything, forgot about lever action weapons; I guess because "gee, that's so old west, 1860s shit."
I don't think so. I'm not Australian but the ban was on semi-autos specifically, lever-action simply considered less dangerous than semi-autos. A lever action is not as fast as a semi-auto, so there is a mayor rate-of-fire thing going on. It also requires much more practice to archive a high rate of fire.

The classification issue seems to be simply because lever-action shotguns are far less prominent as shotguns and more likely an oversight that will be eventually corrected. The ban on that particular shotgun seems to be from an malfunction for this to happen.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-03-01 04:44pm

I'm confused on how, even though it's listed as a right in the Bill of Rights, gun ownership isn't a privilege either way. It might be a poorly regulated privilege, but not just anyone can purchase one. They are heavily regulated even in the U.S. It's a lot less protected than something like voting (at least on paper). You lose the right to vote (stupidly IMO) for committing a felony. You can lose your right to a firearm for multiple misdemeanors and even non-crimes such as involuntary commitment to a mental institution.

I'm not saying any of those are bad ideas, but the government can't stop me from buying a car without possibly a SPECIFIC judgement against me. They can stop me from driving on public roads, but owning a car (or most property) is a right that can't be taken away from you. You use something in a crime, they take it from you. But, once again, outside specific judgements, you don't automatically lose your access to that "something" for life. Maybe something we view as a luxury, like a boat or plane. But once again, I can't recite any law that specifically says "you committed a crime with or when using a boat: NO MORE BOATS FOR YOU!"

NOTE: This is essentially arguing semantics, but with how easily we toss rights in the garbage, I think it's relevant.
MKSheppard wrote:
2018-03-01 04:16pm
The funny thing about that is, Australia when they banned almost everything, forgot about lever action weapons; I guess because "gee, that's so old west, 1860s shit."

Then someone introduced a "high capacity" lever action shotgun in AUS that could be fired relatively fast:
A lot of people don't understand that guns are "easy" (relatively) to design and make. No one is going to make a Jet out of spare parts without considerable capital, but there's been more than a few gun design patents from some dood in his garage with a press and milling device. Not to mention what professional gun smiths come up with or even the manufacturers themselves. Pump shotguns aren't shit? Here's a KSG Completely legal, even in Cali. Holds 15 12ga mini-slugs and is the length of my calf, barely over 2ft long.

I shoot trap with it while loading heavy dove. You either get up on the bird quick or you ain't hitting shit.

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by LaCroix » 2018-03-01 05:11pm

We've got quite reasonable regulations in Austria - all kinds of manual repeating rifles and shotguns are free for 18(voting age) and up (you only need to leave your name and adress for the gun registry), but every pistol or self-loading rifle means you need to get a gun permit (which is pretty much a basic weapon proficiency related theory test, and a chat with a shrink to determine whether you are mentally capable or not), or a hunting license. No full auto for nobody, and concealed carry permits only if you can prove a reasonable cause (specific threats that are based on a reasonable threat evaluation, or job necessities). Remember, carrying at home or within your workplace does not need a permit, since it is not a public space.

We have very good experiences with single issue bans that are specific - for example pump action shotguns are banned, because there was a streak of home incidents with those. No more sales to remove supply, a period to let owners hand over the remaining guns in circulations (back then, there was no registry for 18 above legal guns, now, it would be much easier to do such a ban), and then confiscations whenever they are encountered with hefty legal repercussions, and the problem pretty much immediately went away. But at the same time multi-barreled hunting, lever action, and semi-auto shotguns(those with permit/hunting licence only) are still fine, because they were not causing the problem, and have legitimate uses in hunting and recreational shooting. Pump actions do not have a significant niche that makes their existence a necessity, so they went the way of the dodo.
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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-03-01 07:35pm

Let's be fair here about Aussies. Since 1970, most of the mass shootings are/were "man kills whole family with gun." And those still happen there today. Spree shooters of the "kill randoms" are pretty rare to being with there and the highest body counts were provided via Arson. They had a rash of 3 shooting over 3 years in the early 90s. I'm not up on if and what crime waves Aussies had, but at the same time in the U.S. we were dealing with some of our own crime waves. Either way, Port Arthur was a stand-out.

If you're talking mass shootings prior to 1996, non-family related, the number killed drops to 8 at the highest before Port Arthur. And when they talk about mass-shooting, they use 5 as the cut-off. Now it caps off at 3 (so it doesn't fit their criteria). A kid still pulled a handgun in a school and a guy had a siege situation, people died. And Arson still seems to be really good about killing people over there.

I'm not saying the laws didn't do their job or that "well, more people need to die before I'll count them," but you look at the statistics after the ban and murders and suicides (IIRC, they switched to hanging themselves) went up for 1-2 years after. Then it started to drop off. Now it's as safe there as it's ever been. But that's not saying much as you can apply "X crime at all time low" to nearly any developed country at this point in time, even the U.S.

And, to continue the weirdness, Aussies banned pump shotguns and not automatic shotguns? That's like banning revolvers, but letting people keep their Glocks. And it oddly seems to have WORKED. However, I still have problems when I look at what problems Aussies have vs the U.S. has and equate them.

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Re: Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-03-01 07:41pm

Just to be clear, you know LaCroix is talking about Austria, not Australia with a L? (At least I think you may be responding to him based on your referencing pump shotguns when he specifically called those out)
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