Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

Post by Ace Pace »

Taken from Der Spiegel and I'll allow myself to focus on a few specific parts and will bold things. If anyone is interested in the entire interview, they're welcome to click.
On great men wrote:DER SPIEGEL: Mr. President, since entering office in May, you have made significant waves around the world. The German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, who you read during your university studies, once described Napoleon Bonaparte as "the Weltgeist ("world spirit") on horseback." Do you believe that a single person can, in fact, steer history?

Macron: No. Hegel viewed the "great men" as instruments of something far greater. It should be said that in referring to him in that way, he wasn't being particularly nice to Napoleon, because he of course knows that history can always outflank you, that it is always larger than the individual. Hegel believes that an individual can indeed embody the zeitgeist for a moment, but also that the individual isn't always clear they are doing so.

DER SPIEGEL: How must a president, a politician, behave to move things forward and to change history?

Macron: Personally, I don't think it's possible to do great things alone or through individual actions. On the contrary, I think it is only possible to know what to do in a specific moment once you have understood the zeitgeist, and it is only possible to move things forward if you have a sense of responsibility. And that is exactly the goal I have set for myself: to try to encourage France and the French people to change and develop further. But that can only be done as a collective, with one another. You have to bundle the strength of those who want to take that step. The same is true for Europe.
Political Heroism wrote:
Macron: That is true. You can anticipate and plan everything, but when you actually experience it, it's different. For me, my office isn't first and foremost a political or technical one. Rather, it is symbolic. I am a strong believer that modern political life must rediscover a sense for symbolism. We need to develop a kind of political heroism. I don't mean that I want to play the hero. But we need to be amenable once again to creating grand narratives. If you like, post-modernism was the worst thing that could have happened to our democracy. The idea that you have to deconstruct and destroy all grand narratives is not a good one. Since then, trust has evaporated in everything and everyone. I am sometimes surprised that it is the media that are the first ones to exhibit a lack of trust in grand narratives. They believe that destroying something is part of their journalistic purpose because something grand must inevitably contain an element of evil. Critique is necessary, but where does this hate for the so-called grand narrative come from?

DER SPIEGEL: Why is this narrative so important?

Macron: I think we need it badly! Why is a portion of our youth so fascinated by extremes, jihadism for example? Why do modern democracies refuse to allow their citizens to dream? Why can't there be such a thing as democratic heroism? Perhaps exactly that is our task: rediscovering something like that together for the 21st century.

...

Macron: What's new is this: Since 2005, when the French and the Dutch voted "no" on a constitution for Europe, nobody has developed a real project for the EU. And certainly not France. If there were ideas, they came from Wolfgang Schäuble or Joschka Fischer, and these German ideas were downright quashed by France. I want to put an end to that. Perhaps I am following in the footsteps of Mitterrand, who really did want to shape Europe. My predecessors, by contrast, thought it was best to say nothing at all and to keep all their options open. That may sound like a tactical approach, but perhaps it was simply because they didn't have any ideas for Europe at all.
I'm going to try to tie this into something else that resonates with me, Innovation Starvation.
Still, I worry that our inability to match the achievements of the 1960s space program might be symptomatic of a general failure of our society to get big things done. My parents and grandparents witnessed the creation of the airplane, the automobile, nuclear energy, and the computer to name only a few. Scientists and engineers who came of age during the first half of the 20th century could look forward to building things that would solve age-old problems, transform the landscape, build the economy, and provide jobs for the burgeoning middle class that was the basis for our stable democracy.

The Deepwater Horizon oil spill of 2010 crystallized my feeling that we have lost our ability to get important things done. The OPEC oil shock was in 1973—almost 40 years ago. It was obvious then that it was crazy for the United States to let itself be held economic hostage to the kinds of countries where oil was being produced. It led to Jimmy Carter’s proposal for the development of an enormous synthetic fuels industry on American soil. Whatever one might think of the merits of the Carter presidency or of this particular proposal, it was, at least, a serious effort to come to grips with the problem.

...
China is frequently cited as a country now executing on Big Stuff, and there’s no doubt they are constructing dams, high-speed rail systems, and rockets at an extraordinary clip. But those are not fundamentally innovative. Their space program, like all other countries’ (including our own), is just parroting work that was done 50 years ago by the Soviets and the Americans. A truly innovative program would involve taking risks (and accepting failures) to pioneer some of the alternative space launch technologies that have been advanced by researchers all over the world during the decades dominated by rockets.

I'll stick with "I agree with what I quoted" and hope others add to the discussion.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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I think this is something that Obama understood as well, but sadly it was not possible for him to govern that way - or he was unwilling to risk conflict in critical moments. It will be interesting contrasting Macron's future success - or lack thereof - with the one of Angela Merkel, who is definitely ascribing to a philosophy of government that aims for small, continued improvements over grand gestures.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

Post by Broomstick »

Why do modern democracies refuse to allow their citizens to dream? Why can't there be such a thing as democratic heroism?
Because ordinary people dreaming big dreams then making them real scares the hell out of the people in power - if a couple of bicycle mechanics from Dayton, Ohio can invent a viable flying machine; if some deaf guy in Menlo Park, New Jersey figures out how to record sounds and play them back, or enable people to speak in real time with people in other cities or even halfway around the world, or light up the night with electricity instead of gas, oil, and candles; if some former farmboy in Dearborn, Michigan finds a way to bring motorized transportation to the masses; if a bunch of geeks put a computer on everyone's desk or in everyone's pocket... that's very threatening to those whose power and status are rooted in the status quo because those things change the status quo. Making ordinary people more powerful - allowing them to communicate more easily, move around more easily, access information more easily - makes them harder to control, manipulate, and exploit.

There are benign oligarchs but they are rare - more commonly, they want to exert control to retain their wealth, power, and influence and not allow unknowns/commoners/those they perceive as beneath them to climb the ranks. More and more in today's world "democracy" is morphing into oligarchy. Oligarchs don't really want innovation, they just want more of the same with a different wrapper or more efficiency.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Most of it is nice to hear, but makes one wonder how he wants to achieve such a thing in the modern political climate.

But that last thing makes me wonder... Alternative space launches? Since an elevator is out of the question for technical constraints, what is he proposing?

That Europe launches at least a test of a skyhook? Or starts construction of an orbital ring? Even a launch loop might be feasible if a couple of countries agree.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Well, those are the words of a great Frenchman. Now let's see if he has the deeds of a great Frenchman, too.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Thanas wrote: 2018-01-08 10:11am I think this is something that Obama understood as well, but sadly it was not possible for him to govern that way - or he was unwilling to risk conflict in critical moments. It will be interesting contrasting Macron's future success - or lack thereof - with the one of Angela Merkel, who is definitely ascribing to a philosophy of government that aims for small, continued improvements over grand gestures.
I generally ascribe to the Merkel school, of incremental improvement, but that comes with a huge social cost of removing dreams and that leads, at least in my local experience, to the exact problems Macron mentions.
LaCroix wrote: 2018-01-08 10:54am Most of it is nice to hear, but makes one wonder how he wants to achieve such a thing in the modern political climate.

But that last thing makes me wonder... Alternative space launches? Since an elevator is out of the question for technical constraints, what is he proposing?

That Europe launches at least a test of a skyhook? Or starts construction of an orbital ring? Even a launch loop might be feasible if a couple of countries agree.
In this context, it doesn't matter, just do something :D
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Edit window passed and I feel the need to elaborate. Starting from the Innovation starvation, the central thesis there, as I read it, is that because we've stopped shooting for the stars (conceptually, but also literally), we've also stopped trying things that might fail. You see it in dozens of fields, primarily in science grants where (taking friends statements here), many grant applications are written up when they know the results ahead of time and just need funding to verify, rather than actually trying anything that might surprise you or fail.

On the Macron thing, I don't know enough about his policies to support/oppose them but I do agree with him that the incremental approach, while it does work, has a specific effect on how populations react to it. Or, to be precise, ideas like We will go to the moon by the end of this decade may be populist messages, but they do mean something. Or to directly reply to Broomstick, I don't see it as a negative when politicians co-opt popular messages to their needs in most cases.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Who actually believes in this shit?

Another day, another oligarch political project, another politician trying to flog the masses into enthusiasm. For WHAT? Do we still have plenty of dumb people who'd fall for this? Judging by Trump, yes, we do. But also judging by Cameron.

Those who think that all these sold-out pro-oligarch establishment dumbasses are "smarter" should think again. There is no dream. You can't "save the dream", because there isn't one. It was a fake prosperity, prosperity built, like Rome, on the back of slavery - first of your own kind, then of the immigrants, of the third worlders and of the rest.

Now it's disintegrating. Even an elaborate maze of lies collapses when reality hits right in the face.

What can they offer the youth as role models? Elon Musk, the infamous bus-hater ("A SERIAL KILLER COULD BE WITH YOU ON THE BUS!")? Angela Merkel - the woman who brough us SAFE SPACES FOR WOMEN ON NEW YEAR'S EVE? Who else, let's get some positive examples. How about Macron himself, Mr. "I AM NOT FATHER CHRISTMAS" towards impoverished French colonial posessions in the Carribean?

Yeah, yeah... I'm sorry, but to SAVE THE DREAM, there must be a worthy dream first.

You - politicans like Macron and other centrists like him - were shitting on the modern ideologies, because they were outdated, extremist and so on. You claimed the XX century ideologies were dead, buried, the dreams of the modern were "silly" and it was the fucking end of history, a post-ideological era. Professed by professional professor Fuck-u-yama.

Very few understood back then that "no ideology" means actually total societal collapse, atomization and full submission to the ideology of the ruling class - but not just that, a total submission to the ideology of even select companies, towns, etc. A fragmented society, a fragmented world.

Too late, Humpty Dumpty fell from the wall. I think we have to live with it, and I am sorry, but I'd only consider supporting a grand narrative of my own choosing, not Macron's.

Not for a grand story of transforming the world to the world of Blade Runner, sorry.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Ace Pace wrote: 2018-01-08 01:28pm Edit window passed and I feel the need to elaborate. Starting from the Innovation starvation, the central thesis there, as I read it, is that because we've stopped shooting for the stars (conceptually, but also literally), we've also stopped trying things that might fail.
That's because the current system has been the penalties for failure immense, even potentially lethal (in some places, if you screw up enough to become poor you no longer can access health care, for example, which can make a curable illness deadly).

Henry Ford went bankrupt twice before hitting the big time, but he was able to recover and start a new business each time. Back then, that's what people did. Donald Trump has filed for bankruptcy four times (so far!), but still remains a respected businessman - yet I remember not that long ago calls to abolish bankruptcy for the common man, which would result in de facto debt slavery for an ordinary person who either made a mistake or had a misfortune beyond their control - so, an oligarch like Trump could be forgiven bankruptcy but not one of the lowly commoners.

With a system set up like that the penalty for failure becomes so steep that fewer and fewer dare to take risks. It becomes a matter of survival.
Or to directly reply to Broomstick, I don't see it as a negative when politicians co-opt popular messages to their needs in most cases.
It's not an inherent negative, but it can be one in practice.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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I'm of two minds about the Heroic individual vs. Larger Trends debate on history. Ultimately, I think both see only part of the picture.

There are absolutely forces and trends larger than any individual, which it is very difficult (I won't say absolutely impossible) to overcome. I also acknowledge that large scale changes of any kind generally require the work of more than one person to accomplish. These are both self-evident facts of our reality.

At the same time, I do think that one person, or a few people, in a critical moment can shift the direction of events. For example, it is easy to image a very different (and probably much darker) world today had the passengers of United 93 not brought that plane down before it could reach its target. Or to take the most extreme possible example, there are IIRC multiple incidents where the actions and judgement of a single individual in a crucial moment potentially determined weather nuclear weapons would be launched.

Moreover, while an individual may require the support of some portion of the masses to effect great change, an individual can provide a focus for the masses to rally around, as Macron seems to acknowledge.

There may be a general outline that history will most likely follow, regardless of weather you add or remove a single individual, but there is a lot of room for variation within that.

In either case, however, Macron has my respect as a political leader, based on his actions so far. Mostly because of all the other First World leaders, he seems the one most willing and able to directly challenge Trumpism. Let's hope he keeps up the good work.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2018-01-08 03:08pm Who actually believes in this shit?

Another day, another oligarch political project, another politician trying to flog the masses into enthusiasm. For WHAT? Do we still have plenty of dumb people who'd fall for this? Judging by Trump, yes, we do. But also judging by Cameron.

Those who think that all these sold-out pro-oligarch establishment dumbasses are "smarter" should think again. There is no dream. You can't "save the dream", because there isn't one. It was a fake prosperity, prosperity built, like Rome, on the back of slavery - first of your own kind, then of the immigrants, of the third worlders and of the rest.

Now it's disintegrating. Even an elaborate maze of lies collapses when reality hits right in the face.

What can they offer the youth as role models? Elon Musk, the infamous bus-hater ("A SERIAL KILLER COULD BE WITH YOU ON THE BUS!")? Angela Merkel - the woman who brough us SAFE SPACES FOR WOMEN ON NEW YEAR'S EVE? Who else, let's get some positive examples. How about Macron himself, Mr. "I AM NOT FATHER CHRISTMAS" towards impoverished French colonial posessions in the Carribean?

Yeah, yeah... I'm sorry, but to SAVE THE DREAM, there must be a worthy dream first.

You - politicans like Macron and other centrists like him - were shitting on the modern ideologies, because they were outdated, extremist and so on. You claimed the XX century ideologies were dead, buried, the dreams of the modern were "silly" and it was the fucking end of history, a post-ideological era. Professed by professional professor Fuck-u-yama.

Very few understood back then that "no ideology" means actually total societal collapse, atomization and full submission to the ideology of the ruling class - but not just that, a total submission to the ideology of even select companies, towns, etc. A fragmented society, a fragmented world.

Too late, Humpty Dumpty fell from the wall. I think we have to live with it, and I am sorry, but I'd only consider supporting a grand narrative of my own choosing, not Macron's.

Not for a grand story of transforming the world to the world of Blade Runner, sorry.
I halfways agree with you, but I think you're missing the point I cared about in these quotes. It's not about Macros, but about his general message that without any ideology, people are not satisfied and will search out any other ideology and in order to function, the West needs to offer some message.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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It does not. It‘s time of supremacy is at and end.

What it needs to do is simply to accept that the time when the West decided on the ideology of the entire world, producing all ideas and all thinkers, influencing every nook and cranny, are gone forever.

It is not possible to flog the population of a no-longer center of the world into following a grand idea, simply would not work.

Most interestingly, it would not work because of intense competition and fragmentation of thought. How can the West form a grand narrative, when it is in the physical process of decay and collapse?

Let me make it clear in simple, non-hostile terms: when the USSR won over Germany, launched a satellite and first man into space and was at peak power, its narrative was convincing to its own population, which participated creatively in it - books, films, even jokes were formed within the narrative. Even satire. When the US was at peak power, launching rockets and putting man on the moon, winning the Cold War and spreading their ideology everywhere, people believed in the narrative and made Star Trek and a host of other markers of the age.

When the USSR collapsed, nobody was interested in a great story anymore. When the US started failing, culminating in Trump‘s joke reign, nobody is interested in its grandness and its goals except a few out of place people, who cannot sense the wind changed.

It is pointless to beat a dead horse. The world will produce new stories, new ideas. But not the West, they will now be only as a small part of the world. They will accept the stories of others once others start moving. As it happens in reality.

China, India can produce the next share of grand stories. Others will now be spectators or assistants.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2018-01-09 10:12am It does not. It‘s time of supremacy is at and end.

What it needs to do is simply to accept that the time when the West decided on the ideology of the entire world, producing all ideas and all thinkers, influencing every nook and cranny, are gone forever.

It is not possible to flog the population of a no-longer center of the world into following a grand idea, simply would not work.

Most interestingly, it would not work because of intense competition and fragmentation of thought. How can the West form a grand narrative, when it is in the physical process of decay and collapse?

Let me make it clear in simple, non-hostile terms: when the USSR won over Germany, launched a satellite and first man into space and was at peak power, its narrative was convincing to its own population, which participated creatively in it - books, films, even jokes were formed within the narrative. Even satire. When the US was at peak power, launching rockets and putting man on the moon, winning the Cold War and spreading their ideology everywhere, people believed in the narrative and made Star Trek and a host of other markers of the age.

When the USSR collapsed, nobody was interested in a great story anymore. When the US started failing, culminating in Trump‘s joke reign, nobody is interested in its grandness and its goals except a few out of place people, who cannot sense the wind changed.

It is pointless to beat a dead horse. The world will produce new stories, new ideas. But not the West, they will now be only as a small part of the world. They will accept the stories of others once others start moving. As it happens in reality.

China, India can produce the next share of grand stories. Others will now be spectators or assistants.
So you agree with my point, which is the need for grand stories as motivators, rather than just telling people "things will improve" or poking holes in every other story.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

Post by K. A. Pital »

In some way - yes.

I agree that there would be a captivating story, but I don't think the West needs one.

It's like that macho bad drinking dad who has lots of kids, lots of broken relationships. Now is the time to first, let the kids live out their own lives, and second, reflect a bit on what you've done.

Yes, maybe some of your kids will become great people, but it's generally not advisable for a broken alcoholic to overstretch whatever's left of the cardio resource. It can lead to death ahead of time.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2018-01-09 10:12am It does not. It‘s time of supremacy is at and end.

What it needs to do is simply to accept that the time when the West decided on the ideology of the entire world, producing all ideas and all thinkers, influencing every nook and cranny, are gone forever.

It is not possible to flog the population of a no-longer center of the world into following a grand idea, simply would not work.

Most interestingly, it would not work because of intense competition and fragmentation of thought. How can the West form a grand narrative, when it is in the physical process of decay and collapse?

Let me make it clear in simple, non-hostile terms: when the USSR won over Germany, launched a satellite and first man into space and was at peak power, its narrative was convincing to its own population, which participated creatively in it - books, films, even jokes were formed within the narrative. Even satire. When the US was at peak power, launching rockets and putting man on the moon, winning the Cold War and spreading their ideology everywhere, people believed in the narrative and made Star Trek and a host of other markers of the age.

When the USSR collapsed, nobody was interested in a great story anymore. When the US started failing, culminating in Trump‘s joke reign, nobody is interested in its grandness and its goals except a few out of place people, who cannot sense the wind changed.

It is pointless to beat a dead horse. The world will produce new stories, new ideas. But not the West, they will now be only as a small part of the world. They will accept the stories of others once others start moving. As it happens in reality.

China, India can produce the next share of grand stories. Others will now be spectators or assistants.
The west isn't some sort of monolithic entity that rise and decline. Some countries would do better than others, but it's a stretch to tie countries like Norway or Germany with the Anglo-American countries. More to the point, the Western ideas or the western way of thinking isn't confined to the "west" either. Places like China and India are practically "western" in their intellectual framework.

I personally dislike the idea of a "West" in comparison to the "East". An East-West dichotomy is fundamentally rooted in old Colonial era thinking and simply does not reflect the world we are living in today. As places like East Asia becomes more developed as a whole, I think that will break down the distinction between the "western" world and the "Eastern" world. If China achieved the economic status of most Western European countries, should we need to look at it as if the West has declined?
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

Post by K. A. Pital »

If China achieved the economic status of most Western European countries, should we need to look at it as if the West has declined?
Yes.
Image
And yes.
Image
As places like East Asia becomes more developed as a whole, I think that will break down the distinction between the "western" world and the "Eastern" world.
Yes, which means the "western world" won't even mean anything more than just a bunch of previously rich and powerful countries, and why would anyone then follow a grand narrative from these nations?
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Why do modern democracies refuse to allow their citizens to dream? Why can't there be such a thing as democratic heroism?
Modern European democracies, maybe.

It's no EK or RK

Why not just issue the 1957 EK or RK's with the year changed?
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2018-01-09 04:05pm
If China achieved the economic status of most Western European countries, should we need to look at it as if the West has declined?
Yes.
Image
And yes.
Image
That's if you understood decline in regards the relative share of global wealth. If the "western" world can maintain a good level fo comfort for most of its citizens, I don't see it as a decline in any meaningful way.
Yes, which means the "western world" won't even mean anything more than just a bunch of previously rich and powerful countries, and why would anyone then follow a grand narrative from these nations?
Why should anyone else follow the grand narrative from those nations? A French grand narrative is one that is used by the French. If it works for them, by all means, go ahead. China today has their own form of grand narratives, but there is no reason why any other country needs to adopt their grand narrative.

It's not like a grand narrative of France needs to be a grand narrative of the world. A grand narrative of democratic heroism is useful for democracies, but that does not mean it needs to apply to all nation-states in the world.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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ray245 wrote:A grand narrative of democratic heroism is useful for democracies
Is it?

What is the use of it? What is the end product of this grand narrative, the achievement?
ray245 wrote:A French grand narrative is one that is used by the French.
Seems like even Macron is aiming higher - no matter my distaste for the man, at least he understands that a grand narrative which can't captivate anyone but yourself isn't worth much.
OP wrote:Macron: What's new is this: Since 2005, when the French and the Dutch voted "no" on a constitution for Europe, nobody has developed a real project for the EU. And certainly not France. If there were ideas, they came from Wolfgang Schäuble or Joschka Fischer, and these German ideas were downright quashed by France. I want to put an end to that. Perhaps I am following in the footsteps of Mitterrand, who really did want to shape Europe.
Now I will translate this to plain-speak:

1) Dutch and French voters said no European constitution.
Image
2) I want to ignore this and let German Eurocrats like Schäuble and Fischer dictate the future of a Euro-Empire to French citizens
3) I will put an end to democracy because people vote wrong and follow wrong movements and fake dreams I don't like
4) In the future, democratic nations will only allow people dream about sweet democracy and democratic heroes like me

End. Fin. Ende.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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K. A. Pital wrote: 2018-01-09 04:28pm
ray245 wrote:A grand narrative of democratic heroism is useful for democracies
Is it?

What is the use of it? What is the end product of this grand narrative, the achievement?
If the grand narrative could result in a society less suspectable to extremism, I think that works out well for democracies. I'm not saying this is this needs to be ideal or the only approach, but merely one of the many solutions that may work.

ray245 wrote:A French grand narrative is one that is used by the French.
Seems like even Macron is aiming higher - no matter my distaste for the man, at least he understands that a grand narrative which can't captivate anyone but yourself isn't worth much.
Why does a grand narrative need to captivate people beyond France, or beyond the EU?

Now I will translate this to plain-speak:

1) Dutch and French voters said no European constitution.
Image
2) I want to ignore this and let German Eurocrats like Schäuble and Fischer dictate the future of a Euro-Empire to French citizens
3) I will put an end to democracy because people vote wrong and follow wrong movements and fake dreams I don't like
4) In the future, democratic nations will only allow people dream about sweet democracy and democratic heroes like me

End. Fin. Ende.
I'm not talking about Macron's vision of Europe. I'm talking about whether the idea of a grand narrative is inherently useless to a democracy. It's not like there can't be competing models of grand narrative within a democratic society. If anything, most democracies is built around one or two differing grand narratives of their society.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Re the whole thing:

Image

Elon Musk laughs as each recovered Falcon 9 booster nails the bullseye at CCAFS. He will laugh harder later this month if Falcon Heavy succeeds in sending his roadster on a slow parabolic arc near mars.

And regarding this:

China is frequently cited as a country now executing on Big Stuff, and there’s no doubt they are constructing dams, high-speed rail systems, and rockets at an extraordinary clip. But those are not fundamentally innovative. Their space program, like all other countries’ (including our own), is just parroting work that was done 50 years ago by the Soviets and the Americans.

Shows profound ignorance by the author. The Chinese are moving at their own pace; slowly and surely. They are planning to send a droid to the FAR SIDE OF THE MOON, which nobody has EVER FUCKING DONE BEFORE.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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The Chinese are also working hard on enclosed zero-waste artificial ecosystems, which means they are serious about orbital and/or Moon bases. It is often overlooked, because sending humans somewhere is just the first step. If there are no options to stay, the affair is only a temporary prestige matter. If you can make them stay, science can take a huge leap beyond what Mir / the ISS could offer.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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MKSheppard wrote: 2018-01-09 06:23pm
Shows profound ignorance by the author. The Chinese are moving at their own pace; slowly and surely. They are planning to send a droid to the FAR SIDE OF THE MOON, which nobody has EVER FUCKING DONE BEFORE.
Well the author of that piece is a sci fi writer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Stephenson) and his relevant degree is a minor in physics.

However this Chinese isn't innovative (although to be fair, he seems to be saying not just the Chinese) brainbug has been going on a while even up to US politicians (Joe Biden anyone) and Western media in general, so I am not surprised someone picked up on this and didn't look too closely.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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mr friendly guy wrote: 2018-01-10 06:43am
MKSheppard wrote: 2018-01-09 06:23pm
Shows profound ignorance by the author. The Chinese are moving at their own pace; slowly and surely. They are planning to send a droid to the FAR SIDE OF THE MOON, which nobody has EVER FUCKING DONE BEFORE.
Well the author of that piece is a sci fi writer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Stephenson) and his relevant degree is a minor in physics.

However this Chinese isn't innovative (although to be fair, he seems to be saying not just the Chinese) brainbug has been going on a while even up to US politicians (Joe Biden anyone) and Western media in general, so I am not surprised someone picked up on this and didn't look too closely.
More like, the author wrote this when the Chinese space program was in it's infancy and could rightfully be accused of just using a bad example.
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Re: Political Heroism (Macron Interview)

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Ace Pace wrote: 2018-01-10 07:50amMore like, the author wrote this when the Chinese space program was in it's infancy and could rightfully be accused of just using a bad example.
More like the author is a brainbug.

China has been talking about going to the MOON, staying there; and going to MARS since the early 2000s.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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