Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Gandalf » 2017-10-30 08:58pm

Elfdart wrote:
2017-10-30 02:11pm
I love how Kevin Spacey's attempt to pin a 14-year-old to a bed and rape him is being euphemized as a "sexual advance" by the media. The only differences between what Spacey is accused of doing (and which he's more or less admitted to with his bullshit "apology") and what Roman Polanski admitted to doing are:

1) Polanski used drugs to disable his victim while Spacey's victim was able to get free before he could be forcibly sodomized.

2) Polanski's victim was a 13-year-old girl as opposed to a 14-year-old boy.

I guess Spacey didn't have roofies at his disposal. Thank heaven for small favors. :roll:
Also, to my knowledge Polanski didn't try to hide his acknowledgement of the crime in a coming out message.
And George H.W. Bush not only gropes women but makes them listen to puns first ("You know who my favorite magician is? David Cop-a-feel!"). Is there any low that is too low?
I saw a great joke on Twitter about how Spacey will be the first American president to lose their job for sexual assault.

Unsurprisingly, House of Cards has been cancelled.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Flagg » 2017-10-30 09:28pm

No, he just hides in Europe.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Solauren » 2017-10-30 09:44pm

I have to confess, I'm seeing Kevin Spacey's response a lot differently from other people.

He didn't deny it. He said he doesn't remember doing it (which is NOT a denial of guilt), and that he is sorry over it. In other words, he apologized for something he says he doesn't remember doing.

Most people wouldn't do that.

The "coming out" part, I don't see as an attempt at deflection (which I can see why people think it is), but rather, confirmation that he might had did it.

Now, that being said.
Yeah, scumbag action on the part of Spacey all those years ago. If his accuser were to take him to court in some way, I wouldn't blame him in the least.


Also, I don't see why people are celebrating the cancellation of House of Cards. That's putting alot of people in a bad spot. Wouldn't it have been better to write Spacey's character off the show (off screen death), and continue on the remaining storylines with other people taking over/trying to clean things up?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2017-10-30 11:00pm

Solauren wrote:
2017-10-30 09:44pm


Also, I don't see why people are celebrating the cancellation of House of Cards. That's putting alot of people in a bad spot. Wouldn't it have been better to write Spacey's character off the show (off screen death), and continue on the remaining storylines with other people taking over/trying to clean things up?
My understanding is that House of Cards is essentially the Kevin Spacey show; so if he goes, it goes.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Gandalf » 2017-10-30 11:04pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:
2017-10-30 11:00pm
Solauren wrote:
2017-10-30 09:44pm
Also, I don't see why people are celebrating the cancellation of House of Cards. That's putting alot of people in a bad spot. Wouldn't it have been better to write Spacey's character off the show (off screen death), and continue on the remaining storylines with other people taking over/trying to clean things up?
My understanding is that House of Cards is essentially the Kevin Spacey show; so if he goes, it goes.
Yeah. As good as the rest of the cast is, they can't really carry the show.

Better to just take the resources and put them elsewhere.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Flagg » 2017-10-31 05:56am

Kevin Spacey saying he doesn’t remember it is essentially not saying anything that could implicate him, is trying to mitigate any legal action by setting up an “I was under the influence” defense in the public sphere, and came out to try and get any support that homosexual groups may give (I expect none). It’s pretty much a “save my career” move.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by LaCroix » 2017-10-31 06:11am

Or, he could be honest. Sometimes, people do stupid things when drunk and don't remember.

To be fair, a single incident that might be due to gross intoxication with he apologized for is quite a different league than the other sleezebags we have been discussing here. Unless there is more evidence for his misbehavior being systemic instead of a one time thing, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That doesn't excuse his actions, nor does it mean he should not see punishment or at least have to pay damages if the victim seeks those. It just means that we should keep apples and oranges in their respective place.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by mr friendly guy » 2017-10-31 06:26am

Flagg wrote:
2017-10-31 05:56am
Kevin Spacey saying he doesn’t remember it is essentially not saying anything that could implicate him, is trying to mitigate any legal action by setting up an “I was under the influence” defense in the public sphere, and came out to try and get any support that homosexual groups may give (I expect none). It’s pretty much a “save my career” move.
You're right about him getting none support from LGBTQ groups, people have been in a rush to condemn him.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Flagg » 2017-10-31 09:10am

LaCroix wrote:
2017-10-31 06:11am
Or, he could be honest. Sometimes, people do stupid things when drunk and don't remember.

To be fair, a single incident that might be due to gross intoxication with he apologized for is quite a different league than the other sleezebags we have been discussing here. Unless there is more evidence for his misbehavior being systemic instead of a one time thing, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That doesn't excuse his actions, nor does it mean he should not see punishment or at least have to pay damages if the victim seeks those. It just means that we should keep apples and oranges in their respective place.
Sorry, I don’t give benefit of the doubt to powerful people seeking damage control. And even if he’s sincere it’s still damage control. You can feel however you want.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Flagg » 2017-10-31 09:12am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2017-10-31 06:26am
Flagg wrote:
2017-10-31 05:56am
Kevin Spacey saying he doesn’t remember it is essentially not saying anything that could implicate him, is trying to mitigate any legal action by setting up an “I was under the influence” defense in the public sphere, and came out to try and get any support that homosexual groups may give (I expect none). It’s pretty much a “save my career” move.
You're right about him getting none support from LGBTQ groups, people have been in a rush to condemn him.
Honestly the gay people = child molesters opinion is still held by a significant part of the idiotsphere so if this was a sincere coming out moment it probably does more harm than good.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Flagg » 2017-10-31 09:33am

Actually, fuck it.

Why was he blackout-inebriated with a 14 year old?

What about 14 year olds does Rapey Spacey find so goddamned attractive that when he loses whatever inhibitions that keep him from trying to rape a 14, he tries to rape a 14 year old? Or at least believes it’s possible he did?

Would you extend such an attitude to an actor you dislike who says “Yeah one time I might have raped a 14 year old boy, sorry ‘bout that I was drunk and/or stoned. Btw, I’m totes gay. Peace!” ?

This seems really fucked up to me.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Broomstick » 2017-10-31 10:08am

Elfdart wrote:
2017-10-30 02:11pm
And George H.W. Bush not only gropes women but makes them listen to puns first ("You know who my favorite magician is? David Cop-a-feel!"). Is there any low that is too low?
In the case of the elder Bush there's the possibility of dementia setting in. Which doesn't make it OK, but people of diminished capacity do things like that and since their capacity is diminished they can't be held as fully responsible as non-demented people.

If he's not suffering from dementia then he should be punished as any other offender but let's get real, it's highly unlikely a former PotUS is going to be subjected to anything of the sort.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Gandalf » 2017-10-31 10:38am

Broomstick wrote:
2017-10-31 10:08am
Elfdart wrote:
2017-10-30 02:11pm
And George H.W. Bush not only gropes women but makes them listen to puns first ("You know who my favorite magician is? David Cop-a-feel!"). Is there any low that is too low?
In the case of the elder Bush there's the possibility of dementia setting in. Which doesn't make it OK, but people of diminished capacity do things like that and since their capacity is diminished they can't be held as fully responsible as non-demented people.

If he's not suffering from dementia then he should be punished as any other offender but let's get real, it's highly unlikely a former PotUS is going to be subjected to anything of the sort.
There's also the possibility that Bush just knows he's untouchable as a rich, well connected, white guy in America.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Dartzap » 2017-10-31 10:44am

Something that has mildly confused me about several of these cases is that (alleged,) attacks are being reported to HR departments, but not the police, who apperently only find out about these things weeks after everyone else

Is there a particular reason why this is happening, particularly in the US?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Elheru Aran » 2017-10-31 11:28am

Dartzap wrote:
2017-10-31 10:44am
Something that has mildly confused me about several of these cases is that (alleged,) attacks are being reported to HR departments, but not the police, who apperently only find out about these things weeks after everyone else

Is there a particular reason why this is happening, particularly in the US?
It depends on the particular cases, but generally you see women (and the occasional guy) being preyed upon by men (and the occasional, but very rare, woman) who perceive themselves to be in the position of power. When that happens, they tend to talk (if they talk) to people who they feel are more able to control the situation. And frankly, in the US, that's not really the police, or at least, the police aren't trusted enough to control it. Within a business, complaints are taken care of by HR departments; in other contexts such as actresses being preyed upon by producers, usually the actress complains to her agent, who then threatens lawsuits and what not.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by TheFeniX » 2017-10-31 11:58am

Also of note, while slimy, there are employment contracts that require you to forgo informing law enforcement, instead forcing you into HR arbitration, even in the case of criminal acts. I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch for companies with known offenders in this area to do more than the average Arby's to protect the big fish from themselves.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Dartzap » 2017-10-31 12:19pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2017-10-31 11:58am
Also of note, while slimy, there are employment contracts that require you to forgo informing law enforcement, instead forcing you into HR arbitration, even in the case of criminal acts. I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch for companies with known offenders in this area to do more than the average Arby's to protect the big fish from themselves.
There are contracts that explicitly state someone is not able to contact the police even if they are a victim of crime at the hands or behest of a colleague?

Am I understanding that correctly?

How the hell is that legal? That's entrapment, surely?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Elheru Aran » 2017-10-31 12:29pm

Dartzap wrote:
2017-10-31 12:19pm
TheFeniX wrote:
2017-10-31 11:58am
Also of note, while slimy, there are employment contracts that require you to forgo informing law enforcement, instead forcing you into HR arbitration, even in the case of criminal acts. I wouldn't think it's too much of a stretch for companies with known offenders in this area to do more than the average Arby's to protect the big fish from themselves.
There are contracts that explicitly state someone is not able to contact the police even if they are a victim of crime at the hands or behest of a colleague?

Am I understanding that correctly?

How the hell is that legal? That's entrapment, surely?
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More seriously: remember that the great majority of employees in the US are at-will, and no contract is involved. There may be internal policies that do apply, and in general the rule of thumb is that if an associate is caught or witnessed in the commission of a crime, HR and/or management should be brought into the loop first before the local constabulary are involved. The logic behind this is so that it can be dealt with internally before involving the police. More cynically, it probably has something to do with how the circumstances of leaving one's job involve one's collection of benefits.

Once one gets to the level that they're signing employment contracts... well as long as it doesn't outright violate the law, pretty much anything goes. And in most of the US, I don't think there's any law that requires the law enforcement be informed FIRST when a crime has been committed, only that they have to be informed at SOME point...
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by TheFeniX » 2017-10-31 12:41pm

"Business Friendly" politicians? They can't stop you from going to the police, but the police might not even care enough (tieing into Elheru Aran's post) to do anything about it. Then you get fired and possibly sued for breach of contract.

And let's face it, Hollywood probably has some of the dumbest fucking contracts ever since they employ a shitload of people but don't actually produce much of a "product." That's not a cheap-shot at Hollywood. But having a shitty spokesperson for Aflac didn't tank them, but Spacey going out tanked House of Cards. Protecting your "faces" is much more important for shit like movies, TV, and the News.

Remember the Jones case back in 2005? She's even forced to pay the court costs because... that's just how rape works in this country.

The ONE exception I know of they CANNOT do this with is kiddie porn. The only crime I am REQUIRED (as a Network Admin) to call 911 (actually the FBI) before contacting anyone else is that. I mean, if I find evidence of a murder, I'm sure no one is going to bust my ass for calling the cops first. But sexual harassment or rape?

The U.S. (and large swaths of the 1st world) don't take these things seriously enough anyway.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Broomstick » 2017-10-31 01:13pm

It's also a cultural phenomena - the police are not a first resort in personal conflict. Under current US custom, the steps to take are:

1) talk to the person in question
2) take it to HR
3) escalate to law enforcment

There are exceptions - the aforementioned kiddie porn and murder - but if you do take a complaint to HR one of the first things you will be asked is "did you try to address this with the other person?". That's not meant as a hostile thing, it's part of documenting the incident. "I told him I did not want to be touched and he continued touching me" makes it clear that you stated your views in a way that could not be misconstrued. It's takes away the "I didn't know the person was offended!" defense.

Of course HR, is not your friend - they exist to cover the ass of the business and/or owners. In may cases, businesses do not want chronically offensive people because they're bad for business. Unfortunately, in other cases HR is more concerned with stamping down the complaints than actually solving the problem(s). But if you DO go to the police you will almost certainly lose your job. If not immediately, something will be found later that is worthy of termination.

That's what it comes down to - you are free to go to the police. And your employer is free to fire you for doing so. Employment contracts (which, remember, are rare to non-existent below the executive level in the US) just make that more explicit by requiring the person to go through HR rather than the authorities.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by TheFeniX » 2017-10-31 01:27pm

Broomstick wrote:
2017-10-31 01:13pm
Employment contracts (which, remember, are rare to non-existent below the executive level in the US) just make that more explicit by requiring the person to go through HR rather than the authorities.
This is true. I should have added that it also applies to Employee Codes of Conduct. Which also has the added caveat as, even though heavily abused and sometimes ignored, the employer is required (at least in Texas, though like I said, judges have ignored this) to train the employee on proper reporting procedure. They can't just say "read the employee handbook." You agree to it by taking the job (and usually signing something at larger outfits), but they still have to train you on it.

Lets face it, they do whatever they want: you're still going to lose your job. But you might come out with a bit (or even more) of scratch if you get shitcanned for refusal to follow policy if you can show you never received training on said policy.

Off-topic: "Hilariously," I think some Law Enforcement offices specifically poorly train their officers so when shit hits the fan they can say "you can't hold the officer responsible, they weren't trained enough." Then the "company" picks up the tab. But those coffers are filled by the taxpayers, so who gives a fuck, right?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Elheru Aran » 2017-10-31 01:32pm

A big part of employment culture in the US, unfortunately, consists of 'not making waves'. Ask too many times about promotions or raises? Not good. Make a public fuss about your supervisor on the floor? Bad. Attempt to talk to your fellow employees about joining a union? BAD. Going to law enforcement BEFORE you talk to management/HR about illegal doings? Bad.

They play it up as a whole 'we're just a big family' kind of thing... and what do families do when they have trouble? They keep it in the family. More than often, whether it's right or wrong.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Solauren » 2017-10-31 04:46pm

Gandalf wrote:
2017-10-30 11:04pm
Imperial Overlord wrote:
2017-10-30 11:00pm
Solauren wrote:
2017-10-30 09:44pm
Also, I don't see why people are celebrating the cancellation of House of Cards. That's putting alot of people in a bad spot. Wouldn't it have been better to write Spacey's character off the show (off screen death), and continue on the remaining storylines with other people taking over/trying to clean things up?
My understanding is that House of Cards is essentially the Kevin Spacey show; so if he goes, it goes.
Yeah. As good as the rest of the cast is, they can't really carry the show.

Better to just take the resources and put them elsewhere.
Ah, that makes more sense. Remove him, it is essentially a new show then.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by Solauren » 2017-10-31 04:50pm

Flagg wrote:
2017-10-31 09:33am
Actually, fuck it.

Why was he blackout-inebriated with a 14 year old?

What about 14 year olds does Rapey Spacey find so goddamned attractive that when he loses whatever inhibitions that keep him from trying to rape a 14, he tries to rape a 14 year old? Or at least believes it’s possible he did?

Would you extend such an attitude to an actor you dislike who says “Yeah one time I might have raped a 14 year old boy, sorry ‘bout that I was drunk and/or stoned. Btw, I’m totes gay. Peace!” ?

This seems really fucked up to me.
Since it was at a party where booze was being served, and Space is supposed to have been drunk (Mr. Rapp hasn't contradicted him on that), it's possible in his inepriated state, he though Mr. Rapp was older. (Especially if Mr. Rapp had been drinking).

That's not excusing it, but I've heard of similiar happen before. There is a reason a former associate of mine started checking the IDs of people he meet at bars.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein: fall of Hollywood player they once called ‘God’

Post by TheFeniX » 2017-10-31 05:37pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2017-10-31 01:32pm
They play it up as a whole 'we're just a big family' kind of thing... and what do families do when they have trouble? They keep it in the family. More than often, whether it's right or wrong.
This kind of shit kills it with OSHA. See a dangerous situation, report it, no fault, everything is good for the next guy/gal who doesn't get hurt, but you're the one in the unemployment line. They play it up real big as "we reward responsible reporting," but you're much better off making sure you report it as anonymously as possible.

I've even read some guides online on how to do it as OSHA has a reporting line that handles it anonymously. A big one is, don't report it immediately, especially if you've been working in the area. How nice, work around dangerous shit and hope you survive long enough to make an anonymous call.

Thankfully, I've never personally been in that situation, but many of my friends have. Especially those who work for general contractors. Like the worst of the worst.
Solauren wrote:
2017-10-31 04:50pm
That's not excusing it, but I've heard of similiar happen before. There is a reason a former associate of mine started checking the IDs of people he meet at bars.
Man, at this house party when I was 19-20 (shh), I met this really cool girl. We were hitting it off well. Talking about all kinds of shit. She was into IT, played Unreal Tournament, was really easy on the eyes, could talk at length about all kinds of shit.

After I got her number, we kept talking, and I offered to walk her to her car. She said she was fine, but I was at least going to walk her to the door, didn't want to just stand there like an ass. So, she grabs her jacket off the bed where they all got dumped.... it's a letter jacket.... dated 2 years in the future. And I finally ask "How old are you?" She gets a panicked look and then sheepishly admits she 14. IIRC, she already lettered in band and had seen the party from her house and snuck in. I swear, easily looked early-to-mid 20s. And didn't act anything like a high school kid. Seriously, what person even talks about the merits of OpenGL vs DirectX? And is laughing at my terrible humor? And is interested in me? I bailed pretty quick after. I prefer not to be buried in Texas after being gunned down by an angry father.

Like you said, not excusing anything, and this likely doesn't compare, but man it can be hard to tell sometimes. And I wasn't even drinking that night. Bet she made some other dumb nerd real happy.... or dominated him with shock rifle combos. Shit, why not 17 and a Senior? I could have worked with that.

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