The other independence vote that doesn't seem as well known

[Thanas]

Lack of violence? A desire to be a new democratic state in Europe, minus the Spanish rule?

1. A lack of violence = intimidation and threats of such?
2. A new democratic state in Europe which would pretty much wreck Spain as it is, probably not be viable and cause huge amounts of problems. I can see no positives from it.

Even if that was all true, alas, it is not for you to decide how they are treated, nor for the central government. The sovereignity always lies with the people, and the ultimate expression of such sovereignity may also lie in utter and total defiance of the government. The Catalans were mistreated historically, just like the Irish, and it is their right to raise the question of independence now, with decades of fascist boot on their face still fresh in their memories. Raising it even later would be even stranger, do you not agree?

There is no current mistreatment, nor are they persecuted, nor is Spain a dictatorship. If we were to allow secession for historical ills then there wouldd be no state in Europe at all. This thing is primarily driven because rich catalonia is tired of financing other poorer parts of the country. No sympathy for them.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

Part of what holds together a federal government is trust, namely trust that the federal government will treat the provinces fairly- and will not uniquely single out any one province for oppression or the crushing of its culture. While the current Spanish government may well be treating the Catalans entirely fairly, as I recall, Franco did not. And Franco died recently enough that people who remember him are still a significant political force.

Saying "oh well, nothing like that can ever happen again, because we're a democracy now!" may seem self-evidently true, but it doesn't fully address the trust issue.

[K. A. Pital]

1. A lack of violence = intimidation and threats of such?
2. A new democratic state in Europe which would pretty much wreck Spain as it is, probably not be viable and cause huge amounts of problems. I can see no positives from it.

1. Are you sure these threats are a major feature of the campaign, or are they a minor occurrence blown out of proportion by the Spanish and anti-secessionist European media? And in any case, worse things have been done in the name of independence, as I have already said. 2. Wreck Spain? If Spain depends on Barcelona so much, it should be named capital of the country, heh. Not be viable, I guess like Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Andorra, San Marino and Monaco are not viable. All of them still exist, you know.

There is no current mistreatment, nor are they persecuted, nor is Spain a dictatorship. If we were to allow secession for historical ills then there wouldd be no state in Europe at all. This thing is primarily driven because rich catalonia is tired of financing other poorer parts of the country. No sympathy for them.

Somehow I think you are falling into the narrative of the Spanish media. If Catalonia's secession was driven by "being tired of financing poorer parts of the country", would the politicians be eager to potentially lose their fredom over a blatant violation of Spain's laws? I mean, that is a good way to lose both lots of koney and freedom to boot.

[mr friendly guy]

However you raise an interesting conundrum, most probably without meaning to. Countries can deny regions a vote on secession using a legal framework, as long as they are democracies. But if they do this, are they still democracies? It doesn't seem very democratic does it to deny people the right to vote on such an issue as self determination.

They are perfectly able to vote for a political party representing them in the national asssembly.

Being democratic in one area invalidates the fact they are being undemocratic in another area?

2. A new democratic state in Europe which would pretty much wreck Spain as it is, probably not be viable and cause huge amounts of problems. I can see no positives from it.

Slightly off topic, why do you think Catalonia would "probably not be viable". I mean its economy is better than Kosovo's, South Ossetia and Abkhazia and these three enjoy de facto independence. It will just have to go through the pain of renegotiating with the EU over trade rules.

[The Romulan Republic]

If Russia declares voting in Crimea or some other part illegal in regards to independence or some anti Putin measure, are you going to agree on it on the grounds of legality. Just curious.

What Thanas said.

Though I'll add that I am sick of any time Russia's critics make any sort of argument, the default response is always and without fail to accuse us of hypocrisy (regardless of weather its true or not), because if someone else does something wrong, that apparently makes the wrongdoing of the side you favour okay.

[The Romulan Republic]

Still, it is a peaceful vote which is, at its most, as specified by the organizers, meant to help a regional government to carry out a peaceful secession from Spain.

Is it a peaceful vote if the catalan government tries to use death threats and hate mail by its supporters in order to force mayors to carry out the referendum? I feel for the mayors, on the one side you have the spanish government threatening you with prison, on the other you have the secesssionists threatening you with violence.

I wasn't even aware of the threats of violence, but I'm not terribly surprised. And thanks for giving me even more reason not to support the secessionists.

In that case, this is not a peaceful secession movement. Its an armed revolt, or at least a threat of one. Against a legitimate democratic government.

Which is something said government, in my opinion, has both the right and responsibility to suppress by force.

This is the equivalent of Texas passing a state law declaring that it is legal for them to secede from the union.

Yes, and I'll remind everyone that that happened once before in the US, in 1860. The courts eventually ruled it illegal, and we expended 600,000 lives to prevent it.

Now, granted, the Catalans are not supporting secession in the name of slavery, so its not really fair to compare them to the Confederacy, but a state cannot survive or function if a minority is permitted to unilaterally rip it apart whenever they please. Which was pretty much Abraham Lincoln's argument at the time.

And frankly, if Texas (or even a liberal state like California) did that today, I'd fully support the federal government rolling the tanks in if need be to prevent it*, so I don't want anyone to think that I'm holding the Catalans to a standard to which I would not hold my own country.

*Well, at least if the Federal government weren't currently run by someone who is a fascist dictatorship waiting to happen. If it had happened under Obama, or probably even under W. Bush though... yeah.

[Thanas]

Being democratic in one area invalidates the fact they are being undemocratic in another area?

How so? I suspect you are just in favor of no democracy existing though because according to your idea of democracy the flavor of the month would be able to abolish the state via illegal means if they so chose.

Slightly off topic, why do you think Catalonia would "probably not be viable". I mean its economy is better than Kosovo's, South Ossetia and Abkhazia and these three enjoy de facto independence. It will just have to go through the pain of renegotiating with the EU over trade rules.

Because it would have to renegotiate all the trade treatiess while being forced to trade under WTO rules....while Spain would veto any such treaty. How long do you think they can keep that economy going while facing punitive tariffs with pretty much all their trade partners?

Somehow I think you are falling into the narrative of the Spanish media. If Catalonia's secession was driven by "being tired of financing poorer parts of the country", would the politicians be eager to potentially lose their fredom over a blatant violation of Spain's laws? I mean, that is a good way to lose both lots of koney and freedom to boot.

Again, I repeat myself. There is no oppression going on. So why would they secede? What is their reason that is not "I am a nationalist" or "I don't wanna pay"? Don't give me "just because" because that is not good enough to break up a state.

[K. A. Pital]

Because it would have to renegotiate all the trade treatiess while being forced to trade under WTO rules....while Spain would veto any such treaty. How long do you think they can keep that economy going while facing punitive tariffs with pretty much all their trade partners?

No idea. How long would the EU punish Barcelona because Spain wants to destroy any chance of their independence? Years? Decades?

Somehow I think you are falling into the narrative of the Spanish media. If Catalonia's secession was driven by "being tired of financing poorer parts of the country", would the politicians be eager to potentially lose their fredom over a blatant violation of Spain's laws? I mean, that is a good way to lose both lots of koney and freedom to boot.

Again, I repeat myself. There is no oppression going on. So why would they secede? What is their reason that is not "I am a nationalist" or "I don't wanna pay"? Don't give me "just because" because that is not good enough to break up a state.

You said they do it for the money, but above you say that they would be utterly destroyed economically by independence, because they would fall out of the EU. Either of two can be true, but not both, please!!! So either they are honest - yes, nationalists, seeking independence for their nation - or they are money-seeking vultures who want to get rich, but the second is extremely unlikely.

Their reasons seem fairly transparent (they dislike the history of Spanish domination and place a high value on their short-lived sovereignity in the Spanish Civil War, as anyone who'd been to Barcelona could tell you), and it certainly doesn't look like they are in it for money only, given the enormous level of risk to property, life and economic well-being such an endeavor contains.

I can only conclude they have balls, and their own reasons, but money isn't one of them.

[Zaune]

And the fact that there are (currently) no secret police and black-sites and similar dystopian unpleasantness doesn't mean they aren't getting a bum deal. (See also Scotland.) Or that it's possible to rule them out in future: Did Spain get their youth unemployment figures back under the 20% mark yet? If not, I'm sure the "Franco wasn't that bad really" brigade are taking advantage of the situation.

[Simon_Jester]

For that matter, maybe the Catalonians blame Spain's present economic crisis on bad policies from the central government, and think their provincial government could do a better job as an independent nation? Chronic 20% youth unemployment is nasty enough that if you thought secession would fix it, you'd have a tempting argument for secession.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's true.

On the other hand, I tend to think that secession would just cause economic chaos and leave both countries' economies weaker. But then, I'm not an economist.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's true.

On the other hand, I tend to think that secession would just cause economic chaos and leave both countries' economies weaker. But then, I'm not an economist.

As we've seen before (with Brexit and the Scottish Referendum)economic arguments don't tend to hold as much sway as others do. If you're in a position like this, with both a present economic crisis and a historical issue, then independence sounds more reasonable, especially if phrased as "well Madrid/Brussels/Westminster haven't fixed it and don't seem to know how, why not try this?"

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, yeah, I don't expect practical arguments to sway nationalist secessionists. Because that's a position based (almost always) on anger and pride, not pragmatism.

[Crazedwraith]

They're actually arresting people now.

Spain's Guardia Civil police have detained a senior Catalan official and raided regional government ministries involved in organising a banned independence vote.

Tensions were already high before the arrest of Josep Maria Jové, secretary-general of the Catalan vice presidency.

Catalan leaders are defying a court order to halt the vote, condemned by the Madrid government as illegal.

One official called for peaceful resistance to protect the buildings.

"The time has come - let's resist peacefully; let's come out and defend our institutions," the president of the Catalan National Assembly, Jordi Sánchez, tweeted.

'We will not allow it'

The economy, foreign affairs and presidency buildings were all targeted early on Wednesday, 11 days before the referendum.

The detained official's boss, Catalan Vice-President Oriol Junqueras, accused Spanish police of attacking the region's institutions and therefore its citizens too. "We will not allow it," he said.

The night before, Spanish police discovered a mass of documents directly related to the banned vote.

Catalan police officers, on patrol outside the building in Terrassa, scuffled with pro-secession protesters trying to block the street outside.

The Catalan government is trying to organise the 1 October referendum, in the face of determined resistance by the national government to prevent it going ahead.

The Madrid government has been backed up by Spain's Constitutional Court, which suspended the referendum law passed by the Catalan parliament.

Some 7.5 million people live in Spain's well-off north-eastern region. Although opinion polls have been rare, one survey commissioned by the Catalan government in July suggested that 41% of voters backed independence while 49% were opposed.

Stacks of boxes of envelopes found

One of the most important aims for the national authorities is to stop voting cards being sent out in the first place.

Among the documents seized in Terrassa were stacks of boxes containing some 45,000 envelopes with the Catalan government's logo. The envelopes were suspected of containing voting cards.

In earlier raids, only posters and other promotional election literature had been found.

A local judge in Terrassa authorised police to seize the envelopes and open one to assess whether a company official may have been involved in "misappropriating public money" for the 1 October vote.

Up to 200 local people gathered outside the Unipost offices, placing flowers on police vehicles. For more than two hours they stopped a local judiciary official from entering the building. Catalan police eventually intervened to let the official through.

The mayors of three small Catalan towns appeared in court on Tuesday on suspicion of helping the vote take
place.

Spanish prosecutors have opened an investigation into more than 700 local mayors who have backed the referendum. If voting does go ahead, it will take place in Catalonia's schools and municipal buildings.

The Spanish government has also moved to take control of the region's finances, in an attempt to stop public money being spent on the vote.

A deadline for the Catalan leadership to abandon the vote has run out, with Spain preparing to take over funding of most public services, including the payment of workers' salaries.

However, the vice-president of the Catalan government, Oriol Junqueras, went to the Supreme Court on Tuesday to appeal against the decision.

Accusing the national government of irresponsible behaviour, he said he was confident the appeal would in effect suspend Madrid's move.

The Catalan administration had all the resources it needed to meet its obligations, he said.

Angle they seem to be taking is, we've not approved an election so where are you getting the money for it. Those things aren't cheap so it was something I've wondered myself.

Interesting Factiod: "Although opinion polls have been rare, one survey commissioned by the Catalan government in July suggested that 41% of voters backed independence while 49% were opposed." According to their own poll there's not a majority of people for independence.

[Dartzap]

Apperently the key to success is not having a written constitution. Who knew?!

Spain Has Hit Back At The Scottish Government After It Backed A Catalonian Referendum

The Spanish government told BuzzFeed News that the Scottish government has misunderstood the situation in Catalonia.

The Spanish government's ministry of foreign affairs has accused the Scottish government of misunderstanding the situation in Catalonia after a Scottish minister backed the community's right to hold an independence referendum.

The Scottish government's minister for external affairs, Fiona Hyslop, said on Saturday that Catalonia should be able to "choose the form of government best suited to their needs" and suggested that the Spanish government follows the example of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014.

However, a spokesperson for Spain's ministry of foreign affairs told BuzzFeed News it was impossible for the country to follow the Scottish example under its constitution, and a spokesperson for the Spanish parliament's foreign affairs committee said the Scottish government "totally" misunderstood Spanish law.

The Spanish government is attempting to prevent a referendum on Catalan independence from taking place on 1 October, and the Spanish Constitutional Court has blocked Catalonia's referendum law while it considers if such a vote would be illegal under the Spanish constitution.

"Spain cannot apply the United Kingdom’s solution for the Scottish issue: our historical origins and our legal-political systems are different," said a spokesperson for Spain's ministry of foreign affairs. "Spain has a written constitution, submitted to the vote of all Spaniards in 1978 and approved by 87.7% (and 91.4% of the Catalonian voters), which makes the rules of the game clear.

"The Spanish constitution enshrines the Spanish nation as a political and social reality prior to the constitution itself. Therefore, national unity is the basis of our constitution. There are established procedures to amend the constitution. Therefore, in our legal framework, a referendum in the form proposed by the United Kingdom to Scotland would only be possible if the constitution were amended.

"The British case is an exception to an overwhelming majority of written constitutions that do not recognise this possibility. Recent judicial decisions in Germany and Italy have underlined the same constitutional approach as Spain. More concretely, according to Germany’s Supreme Court 'there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede'."

The Scottish government's statement suggested that Catalonia's right to self-determination was "enshrined in the United Nations charter" – the set of rules each member of the UN signs up to – but the spokesperson said Hyslop had misunderstood that section of the charter.

"Concerning the right of self-determination of peoples contained in the UN Charter (art 2) and developed by resolutions 2625 (XXV) and 1514 (XV), it is limited to the process of decolonization," they said. "Apart from this context, it can only be argued in cases of peoples annexed by conquest, foreign domination or occupation, and peoples oppressed by massive and flagrant violation of their rights."

Fernando Maura, Spanish MP and a spokesperson for the Spanish parliament's foreign affairs committee, also told BuzzFeed News that the situations in Scotland and Catalonia are different and that Hyslop's suggestions "totally" misunderstood Spanish constitutional law.

"These two issues – Catalonia and Scotland – are completely different," Maura told BuzzFeed News. "In the Catalonian case the self-determination right is not allowed by the Spanish constitution; this right only can be exercised by the whole integrity of the Spanish people, according to the Constitutional Court."

He added: "I don't know if this statement is made as a fair approach or as an interest to meddling unnecessarily in a very different debate than the Scottish. You must ask this question to the Scottish government."

Asked if the Scottish government's statement was an unhelpful misunderstanding of the Catalonian situation, Maura replied: "Totally."

If nothing else, it demonstrates the importance of a flexible approach to these things. If those polls are correct (hahahaha) They've nowt to worry about.

[White Haven]

The ironic thing from where I sit is that the heavy-handed response to the very idea of the Catalan referendum is probably doing more than a little to encourage the separatist sentiment.

[Thanas]

No idea. How long would the EU punish Barcelona because Spain wants to destroy any chance of their independence? Years? Decades?

The EU does not matter as much as the spanish veto, which I would imagine could go on for generations.

You said they do it for the money, but above you say that they would be utterly destroyed economically by independence, because they would fall out of the EU. Either of two can be true, but not both, please!!!

It would not be the first independence movement that would promise that everything could go on as always except that this would clearly not be the case. Just look at the UK and Brexit.

[Murazor]

*waves hand*

Hiya there.

Spanish forumite here, moderately well informed about all this stuff, with rusty but moderately serviceable ability to understand catalan.

Can I help you guys with any doubts you might have about this thing?

[The Romulan Republic]

Apperently the key to success is not having a written constitution. Who knew?!

Spain Has Hit Back At The Scottish Government After It Backed A Catalonian Referendum

The Spanish government told BuzzFeed News that the Scottish government has misunderstood the situation in Catalonia.

The Spanish government's ministry of foreign affairs has accused the Scottish government of misunderstanding the situation in Catalonia after a Scottish minister backed the community's right to hold an independence referendum.

The Scottish government's minister for external affairs, Fiona Hyslop, said on Saturday that Catalonia should be able to "choose the form of government best suited to their needs" and suggested that the Spanish government follows the example of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014.

However, a spokesperson for Spain's ministry of foreign affairs told BuzzFeed News it was impossible for the country to follow the Scottish example under its constitution, and a spokesperson for the Spanish parliament's foreign affairs committee said the Scottish government "totally" misunderstood Spanish law.

The Spanish government is attempting to prevent a referendum on Catalan independence from taking place on 1 October, and the Spanish Constitutional Court has blocked Catalonia's referendum law while it considers if such a vote would be illegal under the Spanish constitution.

"Spain cannot apply the United Kingdom’s solution for the Scottish issue: our historical origins and our legal-political systems are different," said a spokesperson for Spain's ministry of foreign affairs. "Spain has a written constitution, submitted to the vote of all Spaniards in 1978 and approved by 87.7% (and 91.4% of the Catalonian voters), which makes the rules of the game clear.

"The Spanish constitution enshrines the Spanish nation as a political and social reality prior to the constitution itself. Therefore, national unity is the basis of our constitution. There are established procedures to amend the constitution. Therefore, in our legal framework, a referendum in the form proposed by the United Kingdom to Scotland would only be possible if the constitution were amended.

"The British case is an exception to an overwhelming majority of written constitutions that do not recognise this possibility. Recent judicial decisions in Germany and Italy have underlined the same constitutional approach as Spain. More concretely, according to Germany’s Supreme Court 'there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede'."

The Scottish government's statement suggested that Catalonia's right to self-determination was "enshrined in the United Nations charter" – the set of rules each member of the UN signs up to – but the spokesperson said Hyslop had misunderstood that section of the charter.

"Concerning the right of self-determination of peoples contained in the UN Charter (art 2) and developed by resolutions 2625 (XXV) and 1514 (XV), it is limited to the process of decolonization," they said. "Apart from this context, it can only be argued in cases of peoples annexed by conquest, foreign domination or occupation, and peoples oppressed by massive and flagrant violation of their rights."

Fernando Maura, Spanish MP and a spokesperson for the Spanish parliament's foreign affairs committee, also told BuzzFeed News that the situations in Scotland and Catalonia are different and that Hyslop's suggestions "totally" misunderstood Spanish constitutional law.

"These two issues – Catalonia and Scotland – are completely different," Maura told BuzzFeed News. "In the Catalonian case the self-determination right is not allowed by the Spanish constitution; this right only can be exercised by the whole integrity of the Spanish people, according to the Constitutional Court."

He added: "I don't know if this statement is made as a fair approach or as an interest to meddling unnecessarily in a very different debate than the Scottish. You must ask this question to the Scottish government."

Asked if the Scottish government's statement was an unhelpful misunderstanding of the Catalonian situation, Maura replied: "Totally."

If nothing else, it demonstrates the importance of a flexible approach to these things. If those polls are correct (hahahaha) They've nowt to worry about.

And there goes the last flicker of respect I had for the SNP.

[fordlltwm]

If the spanish gov't continue down this path I can see it ending up like the troubles in Northern Ireland if it is allowed to fester the way it is. I don't look forward to the Bloody Sunday analogue but, sadly, I can see it coming.

[Thanas]

*waves hand*

Hiya there.

Spanish forumite here, moderately well informed about all this stuff, with rusty but moderately serviceable ability to understand catalan.

Can I help you guys with any doubts you might have about this thing?

How do the seperatists propose to deal with not being a Member of the EU?

[Murazor]

How do the seperatists propose to deal with not being a Member of the EU?

Mainly, by claiming that they will remain members of the EU or be allowed in in no time flat.

After all, among the things being said lately, we have heard that after an hypothetical independence the citizens of Catalonia would retain Spanish nationality and therefore remain citizens of the EU, even if the new state itself isn't.

[mr friendly guy]

*waves hand*

Hiya there.

Spanish forumite here, moderately well informed about all this stuff, with rusty but moderately serviceable ability to understand catalan.

Can I help you guys with any doubts you might have about this thing?

How do the seperatists propose to deal with not being a Member of the EU?

I could have answered that one.
They claim that current EU law makes them EU citizens, and the EU cannot strip citizenship from existing citizens. I have no idea how true this is, but I suspect if the separatist win this will be tested in the EU courts.

[K. A. Pital]

It would not be the first independence movement that would promise that everything could go on as always except that this would clearly not be the case. Just look at the UK and Brexit.

Maybe, but promising and understanding are two different things. Surely the Catalonia officials who have gone forth with a blatant act of defying the central government, understand the consequences. The people may be misguided, but not the supporting officials, which makes me question their desire to get richer. They certainly risk a lot, possibly even unrecognized state status and black marks in their passports, if it comes to this.

[Murazor]

Maybe, but promising and understanding are two different things. Surely the Catalonia officials who have gone forth with a blatant act of defying the central government, understand the consequences.

Well, yes, they understand the consequences. That would be why they have given themselves a pre-emptive amnesty of all crimes involved in this proces, duh.