Captain Seafort wrote: ↑2017-10-04 02:22pm
Edi wrote: ↑2017-10-04 06:21amProblem for Spain with letting Catalonia go is that IIRC Catalonia is one of the richest regions and their taxes are subsidizing much of the rest of the country, which is why the central government wants to retain such tight control.
The problem is that I suspect Sunday's events have probably sent support for independence in Catalonia through the roof. Everything I've heard suggests that if the government had agreed to the vote and actively campaigned against secession, they would probably have won, and had a rock solid argument to point to every time the local government kicked up a stink about something. As it stands they've shot themselves in the foot with a small artillery piece.
Oh, I firmly agree that they bungled their handling of this, although I'm not sure that allowing (and thus legitimizing) an illegal vote would have been the right course of action.
Certainly, though, the heavy-handed police response made things worse.
Dragon Angel wrote: ↑2017-10-04 06:56pmOh, how persecuted you are. Oh, how everyone is picking on you.
It's rich seeing you say this since you are quite a fan of using other people's posting histories against them. Hey, everyone on this subforum does it, just admit your hypocrisy and be done with it. I'd respect you more than your acting like a total coward.
I'd hardly claim that it rises to the level of "persecution". More just irritating.
Personally, I think that nobody should use someone's posting history against them unless its directly relevant to the arguments they're making in the thread in question. I'll try and stick to that if others will.
Okay, fine, but then you continue onward to...
The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-10-04 06:05pmAs to weather the referendum should have been allowed to proceed without legal consequences- in my opinion, no. That would have been an abrogation of the government's responsibility to uphold the rule of law, it would have made them appear weak and set a precedent that would encourage further attempts at unilateral secession. That said, I would certainly have preferred that they simply arrest the organizers of the referendum rather than employ force against crowds of voters, or at the very least refrain from beating people unless those people were actually armed/violent first. For both moral and pragmatic reasons.
Its generally poor policy to do anything that makes you appear as the aggressor in a political dispute, without very good cause.
What ..... makes you think that arresting the organizers of the referendum would be
that much better an option? You will still have the separatists saying the government is obstructing an internal democratic process, but now it's just "less dirty" to you and out of the view. Congrats, instead of the cops beating the shit out of them, they are now disappearing people. Hooray?
"disappearing people".
Seriously?
I am talking about
arrests, and
trials, and
due process. Not the secret police kicking in doors in the dead of night and dragging people off to the torture chambers.
And yes, from just a PR perspective, I'd consider that preferable to "civilians beaten bloody in the streets for trying to vote". And from a moral perspective, superior because its precisely targeting the most guilty parties only.
A better way to have dealt with this would have been to argue this in Spain's courts, since this would certainly have to be litigated. Don't arrest anyone yet, because that brings to mind rightfully images of a fascist state.
I mean, I thought the whole point here was that the courts already
did rule against the referendum, and were promptly ignored?
Any interactions via the police would have erupted public sentiment, it's just that Spain decided to carry out the worst possible action here.
What happens when the courts rule in favour of the government, and the separatists say "fuck you, we're leaving anyway?" Which we have every reason, based on everything that's happened so far, to suspect would happen.
At some point, you have to actually
enforce the law, if it is to have much practical meaning. But perhaps they could have held off on doing so until further options had been tried, if only to make it clear for PR purposes who was in the wrong here.
It's also been mentioned that Catalonia having a vote to secede is not unprecedented, as this has been happening many times before. If this being the exception as it was claimed to be "binding" was indeed unconstitutional under Spain's constitution, then the courts handling this would have been incredibly better than summoning images of fascist boots to the population. The police is not the answer here. Your suggesting their continual usage is making me doubt your veracity.
At what point would you consider the use of the police justified? Or is there no point where it would be?
If the referendum was ruled to be illegal and/or the results fraudulent, and the separatists said "screw you, we're leaving anyway", and started taking steps to act as an independent government in defiance of the authority of the Spanish government, would that be the time?
I'm just curious as to weather our disagreement is on the exact point at which it would be appropriate to enforce the law, or weather you simply do not recognize the government's right to enforce the law in the case of illegal secession. Because those are somewhat different debates.
Out of curiosity, what was your position on Scotland leaving the UK again? I know you love the world united under as little separate entities as possible but I don't recall you having nearly this much of an issue with that. Why? And would you have approved of the UK blocking Scotland from secession, if hypothetically that did happen?
As I'm pretty sure you're aware, I oppose Scottish separatism. I'd have a little more sympathy for them because a) I'm well aware of what a clusterfuck the current British government is, b) they held their referendum legally and democratically, and c) they'd be leaving in part so that they could remain in the EU, which Britain is trying to drag them out of against their will. But I'd still consider it an ill-advised move. And if they did try to illegally, unilaterally secede... I suppose I'd have to come down in favour of the British government suppressing such an attempt (though in both cases, I also recognize that their may come a point where pragmatism requires one to admit defeat to avoid greater bloodshed).
If this wasn't what most Catalans wanted, then why not let the referendum continue anyway? Like I said, debate this in the courts, don't disappear the people leading it.
Please desist from characterizing my position as favouring "disappearing" the leaders. "Disappearing" someone has connotations (of which you are doubtless aware) that do not apply to my argument, however badly some people here seem to want to argue that "Spanish government=Franco). I consider this characterization of my argument dishonest, and defamatory.
Thanks to the Spanish government's absolute fuckup though, remaining is probably not going to be "what most Catalans want" anymore, so you had better brace yourself for a possible uncomfortable prospect.
As I said, while the secessionists are in the wrong in my opinion, the Spanish government absolutely fucked up. Those are not contradictory positions.
Edi wrote: ↑2017-10-05 03:30am
The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-10-04 06:11pm
And I'll add, again, that I am holding Spain here to the same damn standard to which I would hold my own country- which is that unilateral, illegal secession, likely conducted against the will of the majority of the people, is not something a democratic government can permit without undermining its own legitimacy, and betraying its responsibilities to the people (not just of any one region or faction, but of the whole nation) whom it serves. The Spanish government would be derelict in its duty if it allowed the referendum to proceed unchallenged.
Would you kindly fucking look up some basic Spanish history before you start spouting more bullshit about things you know nothing about?
Spain is not a monolithic single national identity state, but a state formed up of several regions that used to be independent kingdoms and that have strong regional identities. As in, regional identity first, Spanish second and depending on which region you happen to be from, [insert other region here] never. That has to do with how whoever has been in power (mostly Madrid, aka Castilia) has treated all the others and a lot of it hasn't been very nice, so there are long-simmering regional resentments (think centuries here) in play. Then there is the very recent (as in, well within living memory) fascist dictatorship of Franco, who had a lot of people killed and oppressed the fuck out of a lot of people.
The Spanish government's reaction is straight up Franco era fascism, so expecting this thing to do anything other than blow up the way it has is utterly unrealistic. Given the history involved, your simplistic "can't allow them to do something because of inapplicable comparison to the US" is straight up fucking stupid.
That's more or less a simple summary of it, there's a lot more detail to delve into if you wish to look into it.
I am aware that Spain is comprised of multiple regions and regional groups. That does not change the fact that it is a single country, under a single government, and has been for a very long time. And that at present, I do not see that it is in any body's best interests for that to change, except possibly those (like the Russian government) who have a vested interest in weakening the EU and NATO.
That said, apologies for once again being imprecise in my terminology, and making the mistake of mixing up "country" and "nation". Its a common mistake, but I ought to know better.
However, I sincerely hope that you are not seriously trying to equate the current Spanish government with Franco's. I mean, seriously? Unless their are a lot of recent atrocities in Spain that I haven't heard about in the news (in which case, links please), that's some serious hyperbole.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
and it will be interesting to see what Russia officially says. That is the one I am not too sure I can predict correctly. It may say nothing and let RT put forward some interviews from those highly sympathetic to a splitting of the EU.
