Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Thanas »

Guardian
Germany to vote on same-sex marriage after Merkel drops opposition

A lesbian couple who inspired Angela Merkel to soften her opposition to same-sex marriage have said they will invite the German chancellor to their wedding if a bill to legalise the ceremony is passed on Friday.

A free vote is expected to take place in the Bundestag on Friday, a day before the summer recess after being hurriedly put on the parliamentary agenda on Wednesday by the Social Democrats (SPD), Merkel’s junior coalition partners. The SPD said last weekend that an agreement on same-sex marriage would be a central condition to any future coalition.

The bill is widely expected to pass as it is backed by most parties and Merkel has told lawmakers of her centre-right party, the Christian Democrats (CDU), that they can vote according to their conscience.

“The path to equality is open,” tweeted Renate Künast, head of the Greens in the Bundestag, on Wednesday.

The proposed legislation would grant full marital rights – including the possibility to jointly adopt children – to same-sex couples, who in Germany are now only able to enter civil partnerships.

The vote comes after Merkel softened her stance on gay marriage at a Berlin debate on Monday night. In a live question-and-answer session organised by the magazine Brigitte, she said a personal encounter with Gundula Zilm and her partner in the chancellor’s Mecklenburg-Vorpommern constituency had helped change her mind after years of feeling conflicted over the issue.

“I had a life-changing experience in my home constituency,” Merkel told the audience. She said she had confided in “a lesbian constituent” that her personal “sticking point” on gay marriage was the “welfare of children”.

Merkel said Zilm, who had fostered children from troubled homes for years with her partner, had responded: “‘I tell you what, come and visit me in my home, where I live with my lesbian partner and eight foster children. The foster children have been with us for a long time, and I think they’re doing well.’” Merkel said she had not yet taken Zilm up on her invitation but hoped to do so.

The German chancellor told the Q&A session: “When the state has decided a child is much better off … in a same sex partnership, than they are staying with a violent mother and father … then I have to acknowledge that positively and include it in my judgment.”


Reacting to Merkel’s words, Zilm said she and her partner Christine were “happy to know that this decision might be down to us”. Recalling her encounter with Merkel in the marketplace in the town of Barth, Christine Zilm told the newspaper Ostsee-Zeitung: “I told her I didn’t want us in this century to still be thinking in a medieval way.”

Zilm said she had appealed to Merkel to change the law, “because why shouldn’t same-sex couples bring up kids? To be gay or lesbian isn’t contagious, and the children grow up and go their own way … It’s nice to know she remembered us.”

Merkel said she was in favour of “a decision of conscience” and preferred a free vote because the issue was “a really personal matter”.

Some conservatives from within the CDU and its Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union, have signalled that they may try to block the vote.

Merkel’s comments sparked a heated debate on social media, and prompted the hashtag #Ehefüralle (marriage for all) to trend on Twitter.

Germany was one of the first European countries to legalise same-sex partnerships in 2001 under a SPD-Greens government. But since 2005, Merkel’s CDU-led government has refused repeatedly to legalise gay marriage owing to strong opposition from the conservative alliance’s right wing, despite granting same-sex couples full marital rights, including the right to adopt.

Other countries across Europe have already legalised gay marriage, including Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Spain and the UK, except for Northern Ireland.

Merkel said she did not want the question to be politicised, particularly before parliamentary elections in September. But if the bill is passed, her conservatives will be able to take credit for it, despite having opposed the motion for years while the opposition SPD, Greens and pro-business liberals have strongly pushed for it. About two-thirds of Germans are believed to support the legislation.

Already in a civil partnership, the Zilms said they will marry when it is legal. “And Angela Merkel will get an invitation to the wedding,” they told the Ostsee-Zeitung.

Legally this bill will not change that much as gay couples had already been allowed to do almost everything married couples had been allowed to do (as gay civil unions had been the same as hetero civil unions) but they had not been allowed to call themselves married due to the special protection for marriage in the constiution. This will change that.

As somebody who has gay relatives and friends, this is obviously something I support deeply.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12212
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Lord Revan »

I would say that the importance here is the symbolic meaning of what has happend then any practical change, to explain what I mean is that before while practically speaking there might have not been that much difference between marriage and civil union, there was symbolic idea that homosexual relationships were something "less" then heterosexual ones, but now they both of those relationships have been put into equal terms as far as I can tell that trace of homophobia is gone (hopefully for good) from german laws.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7455
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Zaune »

This is the first I knew that Germany didn't already have it.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by The Romulan Republic »

About damn time, and I too am surprised that Germany didn't have it already. Germany is a civilized 21st. Century nation in most respects, so its nice to see them working to remove this blemish.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5193
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by LaCroix »

The Romulan Republic wrote:About damn time, and I too am surprised that Germany didn't have it already. Germany is a civilized 21st. Century nation in most respects, so its nice to see them working to remove this blemish.
Germany was one of the first European countries to legalise same-sex partnerships in 2001 under a SPD-Greens government.
They have it, it's just that it was called a "partnership" instead of a marriage, but the institutions and legal consequences were practically identical. This is pretty much just a name change.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If you're not allowed to call it "marriage", then no, by definition, they don't have it.

I am well aware that they have civil partnerships, but the refusal to call it marriage is still a slight, still an inequality, and the two should not be treated as the same.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7455
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Zaune »

I have to confess I can think of better hills to die on than a matter of mere semantics, but then that probably has more to do with the fact I'm a bit cynical about the whole concept of marriage on account of Dad spending my college fund on divorce lawyers.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Vendetta »

The worth of the fight for actual marriage even when civil partnerships are functionally the same is that separate but equal rarely ends up delivering on the equal bit.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12212
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Lord Revan »

The thing is that there's a impression among the general population that same-sex relationships are second class relationships and "not real", by making same-sex relationships be for all intents and purposes equal footing with hetero-sexual relationships the german goverment is saying that "we consider same-sex relationships to be just as valid as hetero-sexual ones". There may be very little practical change but symbolic change is huge.

Lets remember after all that USA and UK don't have an exclusive deal on bigots within the western world and most European countries have their fair share of scum whose values(and I use the term loosely here) and actions don't belong in the 21st century.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5193
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by LaCroix »

Aaand.... The bill got passed.

Well done.

Now maybe the parliamentary cowards in my home country can come around, as well, that would be nice, wouldn't it?
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Excellent. Congratulations, Germany!
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by mr friendly guy »

If marriage is just a word and in all practical aspects civil union is the same, then why would conservatives fight tooth and nail to stop gay people using the term marriage? Who are they fooling with this rhetoric? Its clear this word has quite a lot of importance to them, whether its symbolic or just a way for them to openly rub it in to gays.

In any event, congrats to Germany. If only my country could do the same.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7455
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Zaune »

mr friendly guy wrote: 2017-07-08 09:13amIf marriage is just a word and in all practical aspects civil union is the same, then why would conservatives fight tooth and nail to stop gay people using the term marriage? Who are they fooling with this rhetoric?
Spite?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12212
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Lord Revan »

Zaune wrote: 2017-07-09 05:31am
mr friendly guy wrote: 2017-07-08 09:13amIf marriage is just a word and in all practical aspects civil union is the same, then why would conservatives fight tooth and nail to stop gay people using the term marriage? Who are they fooling with this rhetoric?
Spite?
I'd say fear of the unknown is a more likely motive then spite.

I they fear being in world where gay people can say they're married, is it rational, nope but these things rarely are.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by mr friendly guy »

Are any Germans crying out about how bad it will be.

Then its time to bring this out again from when New Zealand legalised it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSGOK5jC9I
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Germany to vote on gay marriage after Merkel expresses hope for a conscience vote

Post by Thanas »

Honestly it passed with very little fanfare, Germans are way too busy to fuss over the G20 violence in Hamburg to spent much time thinking about gay marriage it seems.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Post Reply