So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

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So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by SolarpunkFan »

(Autoplay vid warning)

Escape from Putin's info bubble emboldens Russian youth
LONDON -- The worldview of Russians under the age of 30, like their contemporaries everywhere, is shaped by YouTube, V'Kontaktye (Russia's answer to Facebook) and hundreds of news, music and political websites and blogs.

They don't bother to watch Russian TV, with its Kremlin-controlled content, so they're not trapped in the state's information bubble. That has made them sceptical, inquiring and bold.

Last weekend, we travelled 150 miles west of Moscow to the city of Vladimir, to meet the organizers of one of the anti-corruption protests that was set for June 12.

We met Danil Belyakov, a 15-year-old with coppery hair who was handing out fliers for anti-corruption campaigner Alexei Navalny. Danil had attended Navalny's first big protest in March, which brought 60,000 Russians into the streets.

A few days after going to that protest, Danil and two other high school students who had attended were summoned to the principal's office for a telling off. Danil didn't only stand up for himself, he secretly recorded the conversation on his phone, and posted it online.

It went viral, and kicked off a lively local debate -- about respect, authority and the influence of the World Wide Web in today's Russia.

The conversation between the principal and Danil perfectly illustrates the tension between young, irreverent Russians who want change, and their elders who believe what they see on TV -- even if they have been left exhausted by years of instability and the very corruption millennials are protesting against.

Danil's principal started out by asking him what he and his friends had been chanting at the protest, and very quickly the discussion highlighted Russia's generational online/offline divide.

DANIL: We get [our slogans] from the internet. Maybe you've seen them.
PRINCIPAL: Where would I have seen them?
DANIL: There were pictures online.
PRINCIPAL: I don't look online. I'm not interested. The internet is full of lies.

Danil explained that he and the other protestors wanted to highlight allegations that Russia's Prime Minister, Dmitry Medvedev, had stolen billions of dollars. Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner at the forefront of the opposition movement, posted a video online purporting to prove that Medvedev had used powerful friends and a network of charities to hide luxury properties, and even a yacht.

The video has been viewed more than 20 million times.

Danil's principal, who came of age under the officialdom and hierarchy of the Soviet Union, can't accept that Navalny, a self-styled watchdog and campaigner should have any authority at all.

"Who is this guy?" he asks sarcastically. "Is he a policeman?"

DANIL: He's an opposition figure.
PRINCIPAL: An oppositionist! Is he a policeman?
DANIL: But Navalny has provided evidence of Medvedev's stealing.
PRINCIPAL: Where does he show this evidence? On the internet? Do you know how much crap is out there -- for public access? Crap used to be scrawled on public toilet walls. Now they're writing it on the internet…"

Danil tries to make the case for the internet as a force for something that has been denied Russian citizens since President Putin took power; freedom of expression.

The principal, clearly rattled by the obvious power of information that is neither verifiable nor officially sanctioned, pushes back.

DANIL: But on the internet you can write whatever is necessary and that's good. You can express all your thoughts online..
PRINCIPAL: I am not going to argue with you. Any idiot can write whatever comes to mind on the internet. That's why it's a big garbage can. Anyone can write anything. So Navalny decided to post his ideas there - on the internet.

Not ideas, Danil insists, but findings. For him, and millions of young Russians like him, Navalny offers facts to counter the Kremlin's lies.

A little later on, the principal agrees with Danil that Russia is riddled with corruption, but he doesn't agree that President Putin and his inner circle are to blame. Instead, the principal, who lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union and the chaotic 1990s, blames the oligarchs who pillaged Russia's industries, and the man who was president at the time, Boris Yeltsin.

Yes, it has left a mess, and he concedes he's not happy with what he calls, "the current power structure."

PRINCIPAL: I don't like it either. I'm telling you openly.
DANIL: So we need to fight it. Why aren't you coming to the rally?
PRINCIPAL: Me??? To the rally. Why? Do you think I'm insane?

The principal may think demonstrating publically will get him into trouble, and he is probably right. The Russian government, rattled by the anti-corruption rallies, has put pressure on local governments and officials to suppress them.

But there's another reason he doesn't support the protests; he simply doesn't see the point. He's a man nearing the end of his career who has never seen good governance in his country. In his view, crooks and cronies always come out on top.

He brings up the example of Ukraine and the huge Maidan protest in 2014, which toppled Russian-backed President Viktor Yanukovitch.

The principal, who watched coverage of the Maidan on Kremlin-controlled Russian TV, believes the Kremlin line; that the vast crowds in Kiev that spring were malcontents who were manipulated by foreign spies and Ukrainian billionaires.

Danil, informed by video and online news, thinks they were brave citizens who wanted to rid their country of a tyrant.

PRINCIPAL: These people (protesting in Maidan Square) they organized a coup.
DANIL: Let's suppose...
PRINCIPAL: But the people who took power next were no better.
DANIL: But we hear it is better there now. I don't say they're perfect, but...
PRINCIPAL: No. Now criminals have taken power in Ukraine. Billionaires.
DANIL: But it's possible that good people can come to power (after a political shakeup).
PRINCIPAL: Oh? And where will they come from? Out of thin air?
DANIL: So are you saying we should leave bad people in power?
PRINCIPAL: What do you think is going on now in Ukraine?
DANIL: Why do you keep talking about Ukraine? We're living in Russia!

Eventually, the principal runs out of patience.

PRINCIPAL: Oh, you are stupid. And ignorant. You don't know anything.
DANIL: Okay. Fair enough. I may be ignorant, but can I point out the roof of our school is falling apart, there are cockroaches everywhere and there isn't even power in all the rooms.
PRINCIPAL: Okay. We have some problems. So what?
DANIL: And you are pulling students out of class because they were at an opposition rally? You should be paying attention to the state of the school.
PRINCIPAL: How dare you tell me what to do.

Predictably, Danil was expelled. But he did well in his exams, he told us, and was sure he'd get into another school this fall.

Meanwhile, the chasm between young, plugged-in Russians and the government that rules their lives from Moscow, grows wider.
Interesting. :shock: This caught me by surprise a few days ago and I usually know a bit about international events. Maybe I was too focused on domestic politics after the Trump win.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Khaat »

There's also some fun stuff going on with Russian censorship online: there was a recent mass exodus of LiveJournal with new Terms of Use that included nasty language about "prosecution by authorities for (dissent*)".

*no, basically, that's what it was, though they were super helpful in that the translated Terms of Use wasn't the binding agreement, the original Russuian language ToU was....
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by TheFeniX »

But remember, millenials are too busy maintaining the status quo in their liberal hugboxes and tweeting those Facebooks and trading likes and memes for free emojis so that they can increase their sum of Internets.

On a more serious note, I've read a couple articles about Russian "police" bashing protester skulls. I just don't/didn't know enough about the situation to bother posting about it. That said, I wish the protesters luck.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by CetaMan »

I'll be watching these to see if they go anywhere, to see if anything major or disrupting happens. I'm somewhat curious about the effects on some neighboring countries if the political situation is shaken up.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I doubt they'll actually be able to force Putin out, but I wish them the best. I'd like to see Putin's authority shaken a bit, especially since he's done so much to destabilize my own country's internal politics.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Thanas »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I doubt they'll actually be able to force Putin out, but I wish them the best. I'd like to see Putin's authority shaken a bit, especially since he's done so much to destabilize my own country's internal politics.

I can't think of anybody replacing Putin who would not be worse, a puppet of his or just simply too weak to hold things together.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:I doubt they'll actually be able to force Putin out, but I wish them the best. I'd like to see Putin's authority shaken a bit, especially since he's done so much to destabilize my own country's internal politics.

I can't think of anybody replacing Putin who would not be worse, a puppet of his or just simply too weak to hold things together.
Worse in what way? More militarily aggressive? Because anything else, while perhaps worse for Russia, would surely be better for the rest of the world.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Ralin »

The Romulan Republic wrote: Worse in what way? More militarily aggressive? Because anything else, while perhaps worse for Russia, would surely be better for the rest of the world.
Pretty sure plenty of Russians felt similarly about Trump's candidacy
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by K. A. Pital »

Khaat wrote:There's also some fun stuff going on with Russian censorship online: there was a recent mass exodus of LiveJournal with new Terms of Use that included nasty language about "prosecution by authorities for (dissent*)".

*no, basically, that's what it was, though they were super helpful in that the translated Terms of Use wasn't the binding agreement, the original Russuian language ToU was....
LJ was already half-dead after the mass media law (which basically told you anyone with over 6000 views is a mass media - a lot of people just fled the space, or fled the country). This was just the last step in wiping out political discussion on the net.

But it doesn't help much because the darknet is developing, and thankfully more and more people become aware of how to use darker parts of the web, how to protect themselves online and escape the all-seeing eye.

This applies to Russia as much as it does to China and the West. The net can't be censored, and won't be. The biggest threat to the net comes from corporations who try to coopt access channels - and not from failing governments, actually.
CetaMan wrote:I'll be watching these to see if they go anywhere, to see if anything major or disrupting happens. I'm somewhat curious about the effects on some neighboring countries if the political situation is shaken up.
Little will happen in the next several years. The Ukraine bogeyman will stifle any protests in the crib for many years, I think. "Do you want your state to collapse like Ukraine?" is a common refrain not just from mass media but also from Russian propagandists, some of which are really skilled guys, on the net.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by SolarpunkFan »

In essence, I don't really blame the protestors.

I've known about the alcoholism and drug problems (thank you Professor Quam and my college geography class!) for a while now, then there's this fascinating (albeit sobering) article.

Yeah, Russia has some really bad domestic problems. :wtf:

Edit: that is, I'm not blaming it solely on the current heads of the Russian state (though there's plenty of blame there), the whole "leave Russia alone and it'll become a free market utopia!" shit that was going around in the west (fuck you Reagan and Thatcher) played at least as big a role in that. I'm simply saying that here and now a lot of people there are no doubt frustrated and desperate as hell.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ralin wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote: Worse in what way? More militarily aggressive? Because anything else, while perhaps worse for Russia, would surely be better for the rest of the world.
Pretty sure plenty of Russians felt similarly about Trump's candidacy
Oh, no doubt.

But Trump is in no way better for the rest of the world than either Obama, or Clinton (destabilizing NATO, withdrawing from the climate accords, etc.). He's probably better for Russia (or rather the Russian political/business establishment under Putin), perhaps, at least in the short-term. But not much of anyone else.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by aerius »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:I can't think of anybody replacing Putin who would not be worse, a puppet of his or just simply too weak to hold things together.
Worse in what way? More militarily aggressive? Because anything else, while perhaps worse for Russia, would surely be better for the rest of the world.
Gotta love that compassion. I guess Russian lives don't matter to you, as long as it's good for the rest of the world.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:I can't think of anybody replacing Putin who would not be worse, a puppet of his or just simply too weak to hold things together.
Worse in what way? More militarily aggressive? Because anything else, while perhaps worse for Russia, would surely be better for the rest of the world.
Gotta love that compassion. I guess Russian lives don't matter to you, as long as it's good for the rest of the world.
That's a nice straw man. But about what I would expect from a Putin apologist like you. Still plugging away at the election denialism?

Of course I don't want Russians to die. But in purely logical, utilitarian terms, if I have to weigh the good of one country (including my own) against the security and stability of the rest of the world? There's only one obvious answer.

I suppose you would rather that Putin be allowed to continue persecuting religious minorities, homosexuals, and political dissidents, engaging in aggressive militarism in the Ukraine and Syria, and destabilizing western democracies by sabotaging their free elections with an eye towards subjugating eastern Europe, without anyone attempting to stand up to him?

Hell, I'd think that if you respect the Russian people so much, you'd want a solution to come from within Russia, rather than imposed by outside pressure or force.

Maybe its not the Russian people you support, but just Putin.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

TRR, look at the entire history of Russia over the past, oh... century or so, I think it is now. The country is a case study in how the new boss may not be any better than the old boss and may, in fact, be far worse. Vlady, if deposed, could be replaced by someone who is worse on civil rights and on foreign relations.

I would love to see someone with a bit less megalomania replace Vlady, but I don't see this being the particular movement. Hopefully, someone less horrid as a person will be able to replace the guy before age (or a fist fight with a bear) take Putin out of the equation, and that this person won't be a puppet.

I'm more concerned for the safety and well-being of the protestors than anything else, because Putin tends to respond very harshly to his critics, detractors, and rivals. In my view, he's a more measured, even-tempered version of Stalin. Utterly intent on keeping power, perfectly willing to have people imprisoned or killed, but also aware that if he seems arbitrary or paranoid then his guards might sort of just let nature take its course.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Simon_Jester »

Wanting a strong autocrat to stay in power because the alternative is a weak autocrat and people fear chaos... Does not strike me as a good long term strategy.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Napoleon the Clown wrote:TRR, look at the entire history of Russia over the past, oh... century or so, I think it is now. The country is a case study in how the new boss may not be any better than the old boss and may, in fact, be far worse. Vlady, if deposed, could be replaced by someone who is worse on civil rights and on foreign relations.

I would love to see someone with a bit less megalomania replace Vlady, but I don't see this being the particular movement. Hopefully, someone less horrid as a person will be able to replace the guy before age (or a fist fight with a bear) take Putin out of the equation, and that this person won't be a puppet.

I'm more concerned for the safety and well-being of the protestors than anything else, because Putin tends to respond very harshly to his critics, detractors, and rivals. In my view, he's a more measured, even-tempered version of Stalin. Utterly intent on keeping power, perfectly willing to have people imprisoned or killed, but also aware that if he seems arbitrary or paranoid then his guards might sort of just let nature take its course.
So your argument is: "Russians have always had shitty government, they always will have shitty government, so the young people there should just give up and stop hoping for anything better"?

Edit: And I'm more than aware of the danger of replacing one tyrant with another, as you're probably well aware. Its one of my main arguments against people who seem to think that violent revolt is a quick solution to our problems. But to extend that to saying "no one should ever make waves or protest against the government, because there's no point"... well, that's an argument that suites the despots very well.

Is it dangerous? Of course. But if the protesters want to knowingly run that risk, then I'd salute them for it, not criticize their choice.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

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The Romulan Republic wrote: So your argument is: "Russians have always had shitty government, they always will have shitty government, so the young people there should just give up and stop hoping for anything better"?

Edit: And I'm more than aware of the danger of replacing one tyrant with another, as you're probably well aware. Its one of my main arguments against people who seem to think that violent revolt is a quick solution to our problems. But to extend that to saying "no one should ever make waves or protest against the government, because there's no point"... well, that's an argument that suites the despots very well.

Is it dangerous? Of course. But if the protesters want to knowingly run that risk, then I'd salute them for it, not criticize their choice.
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If not, you end up with something like the Arab Spring.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:TRR, look at the entire history of Russia over the past, oh... century or so, I think it is now. The country is a case study in how the new boss may not be any better than the old boss and may, in fact, be far worse. Vlady, if deposed, could be replaced by someone who is worse on civil rights and on foreign relations.

I would love to see someone with a bit less megalomania replace Vlady, but I don't see this being the particular movement. Hopefully, someone less horrid as a person will be able to replace the guy before age (or a fist fight with a bear) take Putin out of the equation, and that this person won't be a puppet.

I'm more concerned for the safety and well-being of the protestors than anything else, because Putin tends to respond very harshly to his critics, detractors, and rivals. In my view, he's a more measured, even-tempered version of Stalin. Utterly intent on keeping power, perfectly willing to have people imprisoned or killed, but also aware that if he seems arbitrary or paranoid then his guards might sort of just let nature take its course.
So your argument is: "Russians have always had shitty government, they always will have shitty government, so the young people there should just give up and stop hoping for anything better"?

Edit: And I'm more than aware of the danger of replacing one tyrant with another, as you're probably well aware. Its one of my main arguments against people who seem to think that violent revolt is a quick solution to our problems. But to extend that to saying "no one should ever make waves or protest against the government, because there's no point"... well, that's an argument that suites the despots very well.

Is it dangerous? Of course. But if the protesters want to knowingly run that risk, then I'd salute them for it, not criticize their choice.
No.

I did say I would love to see this succeed, for a better government in Russia. But I also said that I don't see this being the one that accomplishes that goal. I fear for their well-being, and I applaud their willingness to take the risk. I do, however, take issue with "Maybe the next guy will be better for the rest of the world. Russians can fend for themselves."

Russia's best hope of gaining a functional government that respects human rights is through peaceful transition of power. I do not think this particular movement will be the one that accomplishes it. But the generation that constitutes the majority of the movement could well be key players in the future peaceful transition of power. It may take until Putin is unable to exert his will (due to health or death) for a true change in who holds power to occur, sadly.

One major concern I have is that Putin may brutally quash these protests to an extent that for years to come people are too terrified to speak out, even more so than they are now.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, yes, I agree with most of that.

But I think that Putin has persistently proven himself such a threat, both to his own minority groups/political dissidents and to the rest of the world, that such opposition to him (as opposed to the effectively unchallenged strangle-hold he's lately seemed to enjoy) is to be encouraged.

There is, of course, no way to be certain weather it will work out for the better or worse in the long run. But that is always the case with any kind of social or political reform, especially against a powerful tyrant.

And again, to be clear, its not that I don't care what happens to the Russian people (and I would like to think that they can do better than Lord Vladimort). Its just that if I, hypothetically, weigh Russia's interests against the interests of the entire rest of the world, well, that's not much of a choice. I'd of course prefer an outcome that benefits both Russia and the rest of the world.
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Re: So, there are protests against corruption occurring in Russia

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Alas, vicious autocrats tend toward wanting to expand their power. Russia is one of those nations that is big enough that it would give a vicious autocrat the means to attempt to exert influence upon the nation's neighbors. I think that it's more realistic to see a package deal than just striking off one checkbox. A more likely result than "vicious to the citizens but leaves the world alone" is a situation where Russia fragments to the point where no one vicious autocrat has the resources to fuck with everyone else.
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