Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

"Security" likely being a euphemism for "thugs" in this case.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... tia-groups
As tensions continue in Portland following the racially charged murder of two men on Friday, the top Republican in the city said he was considering using militia groups as security for public events.


Portland knife attack: tension high as 'free speech rally' set for weekend
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Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, 23, and Rick Best, 53, were stabbed to death and 21-year-old student Micah David-Cole Fletcher was injured when they came to the aid of two women being subjected to hate speech on public transport. The suspect, Jeremy Christian, 35, was found to hold white supremacist views and to have attended an “alt-right” rally in the city.

On Monday, Donald Trump issued a belated message of condolence. Asked about the president’s tweet, Portland mayor Ted Wheeler told the Guardian: “Our current political climate allows far too much room for those who spread bigotry. Violent words can lead to violent acts.

“All elected leaders in America, all people of good conscience, must work deliberately to change our political dialogue.”

Multnomah County GOP chair James Buchal, however, told the Guardian that recent street protests had prompted Portland Republicans to consider alternatives to “abandoning the public square”.

“I am sort of evolving to the point where I think that it is appropriate for Republicans to continue to go out there,” he said. “And if they need to have a security force protecting them, that’s an appropriate thing too.”

Asked if this meant Republicans making their own security arrangements rather than relying on city or state police, Buchal said: “Yeah. And there are these people arising, like the Oath Keepers and the Three Percenters.”

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Asked if he was considering such groups as security providers, Buchal said: “Yeah. We’re thinking about that. Because there are now belligerent, unstable people who are convinced that Republicans are like Nazis.”

Buchal ran for Oregon attorney general in 2012 and has stood for election to Congress and the state legislature. The Oath Keepers are described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as “one of the largest radical antigovernment groups in the US”, recruiting current and former military and law enforcement personnel. They have recently appeared at rallies from Berkeley, California, to Boston, standing with activists from the far right, activists holding what were once fringe positions who have recently risen to national prominence.

The Three Percenters are described by Political Research Associates as “a paramilitary group that pledges armed resistance against attempts to restrict private gun ownership”. They were a highly visible presence in Burns, Oregon, before and during the occupation of the Malheur wildlife refuge by rightwing militia early in 2016.

Buchal told the Guardian it was important not to become involved with extremists, and said that on the Three Percenters website, “right there on the front page there is what looks like a solid commitment to this not being about race at all”.

The main reason Buchal gave for his attraction to the militia groups was the cancellation of the Avenue of the Roses Parade, an annual Portland community event scheduled for 29 April, after organisers received an anonymously emailed threat of disruption.

The anonymous message claimed “Trump supporters and 3% militia” were encouraging people to “bring hateful rhetoric” to East Portland. “Two hundred or more people”, the email said, would “rush into the middle and drag and push those people out”.

When the parade was called off, Buchal issued a statement in which he bemoaned a “criminal conspiracy to commit crimes of riot” and a letter to Mayor Wheeler in which he lamented “rising lawlessness” in Portland.

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In response to the cancellation, a local far-right organizer, Joey Gibson, organized a “free speech rally” – the event at which Christian, the suspect in Friday’s double murder, was filmed throwing fascist salutes and yelling racial epithets, and where he approached antifascist counter-protesters armed with a baseball bat.

Asked about Gibson’s organizing efforts for the far right, including a planned rally this Sunday which leftwing counter-protesters have vowed to oppose, Buchal said such actions were understandable.

“I think that for a long time there has been a closing of the mind and a censoring to a point where now people feel justified in using force to prevent the expression of opinions with which they disagree,” he said. “I believe that the left – the ‘antifa’ [antifascist] crowd – fired the first shot in that regard.

“There is definitely something wrong if criminal gangs are essentially allowed to shut down normal and traditional activities of Republicans. With that climate arising, the question becomes: what do you do? A lot of the rank and file party members are old and frail people. They are intimidated by what’s going on.”

Buchal appears to have made radical statements in the past. Portland reporter Corey Pein surfaced a video of Buchal addressing a Multnomah County Republican central committee meeting.

The video depicts Buchal making a fiery pro-Trump speech. He says of the president: “His enemies are my enemies and his enemies are all our enemies.”

“Our enemies are more dangerous than ever,” he continues. “We are really in a life and death battle for the future of our society. And these globalist people are not going to give up.

“If we don’t tell out fellow citizens that there are these dark forces in the government, like the CIA and the shadow government, who are trying to take Trump down with lies, who is going to tell them?”

Spencer Sunshine, an associate researcher at Political Research Associates who last year co-authored a major report on the growth of the far-right Patriot Movement in Oregon, said: “The Oath Keepers have been acting as a de facto security team for white supremacists and neo-Nazis for the last month or two.


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‘Violent words can lead to violent acts’: Portland mayor blames bigotry after double murder
“The Three Percenters have no accountability and are implicitly a deeply racist group, and sometimes have explicitly racist members. They have no interest in screening those explicit racists out.


Portland attack: Trump says victims stood up to 'hate and intolerance'
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“Consideration of the use of unaccountable, private paramilitary groups by one of the main political parties is a dangerous lurch to the far right.”

In a statement, Rose City Antifa, a Portland antifascist group, said: “That the GOP need to bring in private armed security rather than rely on Portland Police speaks volumes on their stance against ‘violence’. These private security elements of the extreme right claim to be supporting ‘free speech’ when in reality their main goal is directing violence and hate speech towards antifascist protesters and activists while protecting white supremacists.”

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The group pointed to what it said was evidence of Oregon Three Percenters attending “alt-right” rallies.

On Tuesday, the Center on Extremism at the Anti-Defamation League wrote an open letter to Buchal in response to his comments to the Guardian.

The letter read: “We think it is important for you to know that the Oath Keepers and Three Percenters are not a benign ‘security force.’ They are, in our judgement, militia-style, anti-government extremist groups.”

It also urged him to “reconsider any plans to use these extremist groups to provide security services.”

Mayor Wheeler said in a statement on Monday that he had denied a permit for the planned “free speech” rally on Sunday and a possible follow-up.

“I have confirmed that the City of Portland has NOT and will not issue any permits for the alt-right events scheduled on 4 June or 10 June,” Wheeler said.

The mayor added: “The federal government controls permitting for Shrunk Plaza, and it is my understanding that they have issued a permit for the event on 4 June. I am calling on the federal government to IMMEDIATELY REVOKE the permit(s) they have issued for the 4 June event and to not issue a permit for 10 June.

“I am appealing to the organizers of the alt-right demonstrations to CANCEL the events they have scheduled on 4 June and 10 June.”

Gibson told the Guardian that he would press on with the rally.

“There will be hundreds of people down there regardless of what I do. I will be down there with a permit in a controlled safe environment,” Gibson said.

“Without a permit it could get ugly because we have no right to kick people out.”

Portland police bureau spokesman, sergeant Peter Simpson, told the Guardian that using private security was ambiguous under state law.

“It’s a complex issue. Private security in Oregon needs to be certified by the state. That said, people showing up to assist do not. We don’t advocate bringing in outsiders to police an event.”

He also said that police were monitoring the build-up to the planned rally on Sunday.

“We are aware of the heated rhetoric regarding the planned events next Sunday and are working to determine what our role may be in protecting public safety.”


Are these lunatic fuckers trying to start a riot?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Very possibly? Angry leftists trying to bash their heads in would probably be to their long term advantage.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

Simon_Jester wrote:Very possibly? Angry leftists trying to bash their heads in would probably be to their long term advantage.
Unless the angry leftists succeed, of course.

Oh, and this made me chuckle:
Asked if he was considering such groups as security providers, Buchal said: “Yeah. We’re thinking about that. Because there are now belligerent, unstable people who are convinced that Republicans are like Nazis.”
... and then he went and did the sort of thing the Nazis were infamous for even back whjen Fascism was sort of mainstream and respectable. Does the US high school history curriculum skip over anything that happened in Europe between 1929 and about 1942 or is he just completely bereft of self-awareness?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Zaune wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Very possibly? Angry leftists trying to bash their heads in would probably be to their long term advantage.
Unless the angry leftists succeed, of course.
That would be tremendously advantageous to the overall welfare and success of Right Tribe, even if it would be risky for the Right Tribe individuals physically present as the angry rioters start handing out skull fractures.

And the alternatives (left-wing protestors intimidated into silence by goons, empowering alliances with the right-wing militias, or left-wing rioters attacking the goons and getting mowed down by gunfire thus both intimidating future protestors and making Right Tribe look like the victims) are even more favorable for the movement, and less dangerous.

On top of all this... of the fundamental fallacies committed by extremists on both sides is to assume that angry full-of-righteousness people will win the battle. I honestly don't understand why anyone in Left Tribe still believes it, after the Spanish Civil War. I can see why members of Right Tribe believe it because the tribal narrative supports the idea that Our Boys are more righteously violent than any other.
Oh, and this made me chuckle:
Asked if he was considering such groups as security providers, Buchal said: “Yeah. We’re thinking about that. Because there are now belligerent, unstable people who are convinced that Republicans are like Nazis.”
... and then he went and did the sort of thing the Nazis were infamous for even back whjen Fascism was sort of mainstream and respectable. Does the US high school history curriculum skip over anything that happened in Europe between 1929 and about 1942 or is he just completely bereft of self-awareness?
The curriculum includes it, but he may well not have been paying attention. The default for "everything I know I learned from pop culture" idiots is to view Nazis as a sort of exotic, scary supernatural creature that dresses in Hugo Boss uniforms and shouts "SCHNELL!" all the time.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Budget cutbacks, you know what I mean? Unionized police officers are damn expensive, especially when you gotta pay them overtime. At least they're not using free prison labour yet.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Kon_El wrote:You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
Precisely who has been attacked, by whom, in what way, and is allowing political parties to sprout paramilitary goon squads rather than politically neutral police the correct response?

Hint: political parties with their own armed goon squads break democracy every single time, unless the goons are suppressed.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Kon_El wrote:You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
Bro, literal fucking Nazis are the ones that left-leaning individuals have punched. Now, the right-wingers have actually killed people.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Kon_El wrote:You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
Precisely who has been attacked, by whom, in what way, and is allowing political parties to sprout paramilitary goon squads rather than politically neutral police the correct response?

Hint: political parties with their own armed goon squads break democracy every single time, unless the goons are suppressed.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp ... nt-n715711

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/u ... oulos.html

150 goon squad members with masks and carrying sticks stormed the event and started kicking asses and setting fires because they didn't want Milo Yiannopoulos to speak. I have even read accusations that the Burkeley police were suspiciously absent until well after the damage had been done even though threats of violence had been issued beforehand. When the rescheduled event took place things got really crazy. This didn't start in Portland.
Napoleon the Clown wrote:Bro, literal fucking Nazis are the ones that left-leaning individuals have punched.
Even literal fucking Nazis have the right assemble and speak without being attacked.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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I've been meaning to ask, what are "Antifa's"? All I've heard are the right's explanation of them, who are terrified of them (which makes me want to join, actually). What's the left wing explanation of them?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Block »

Kon El it's interesting that you're conflating Antifacist anarchists with the Democratic party in order to defend the actual local Republican government hiring thugs to "protect themselves". Are you claiming that the Black Bloc in Berkeley was hired by the local city government to be disruptive?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Dominus Atheos wrote:I've been meaning to ask, what are "Antifa's"? All I've heard are the right's explanation of them, who are terrified of them (which makes me want to join, actually). What's the left wing explanation of them?
The american strain seems to be an offshoot of/inspired by this group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fascism

"Sweden: Antifascistisk Aktion activities
See also: Antifaschistische Aktion § Sweden

Antifascistisk Aktion (AFA) is an anti-fascist group founded in Sweden in 1993. AFA's Activity Guide advocates violence against neo-Nazis. Some in the mainstream media have labelled them left-wing extremists.[43][44][45] An editorial in the tabloid newspaper Expressen argued that the label anti-fascist was misleading, because of the organization's methods,[46] such as stealing the subscriber list of the National Democrats newspaper, and threatening the subscribers.[46] Other critics say the group does not respect freedom of speech, because some members have attacked moderate conservatives and other nationalists.[47]"
Block wrote:Kon El it's interesting that you're conflating Antifacist anarchists with the Democratic party in order to defend the actual local Republican government hiring thugs to "protect themselves". Are you claiming that the Black Bloc in Berkeley was hired by the local city government to be disruptive?
I am claiming nothing of the sort. I am simply pointing out that their belief that they may need protection is not outlandish in light of recent events.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Block »

Then they should hire cops, or private security. Not Neo Nazis and white supremacist militias, right?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

Block wrote:Then they should hire cops, or private security. Not Neo Nazis and white supremacist militias, right?
The article describes the Oath Keepers as anti-government and the Three Percenters as Pro-Gun ownership. Where are you getting Neo Nazis and White supremacist from?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by TheFeniX »

Relying on untrained and unlicensed (thus, unlikely to have any official policies on anything, nor insurance) anything for your official political gatherings is an incredibly bad idea. They would need to be organized, trained, and insured like a Volunteer Fire Department (or a private security firm, that just doesn't get paid). Allowing your volunteer requirements to revolve around "grinds the same political axe I grind" and "has a gun" is not going to end well.

And, not that they wouldn't, unless they write some incredibly twisted legislation, they can't get around the fact that in nearly any field, including security, knowingly using someone unqualified for a job also opens you up to liability. For the record, I am licensed by the State to carry a firearm. And there's even open-carry in this state now. However, were I to take a job as a security guard, I would NOT be licensed to carry a gun in that instance. There is some grey area here as theoretically I could carry a concealed handgun to protect my person, but that's a whole other bag of cats.

Since they would be knowingly "hiring" unlicensed and untrained individuals to perform an already clearly defined job (read: security, which has multiple laws already attached) for them, they would deal with any insurance provider denying any claims outright. So, they'd be paying out of their own coffers when one of their Brute Squad inevitably screws up.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Very possibly? Angry leftists trying to bash their heads in would probably be to their long term advantage.
Unless the angry leftists succeed, of course.
I expected this sort of argument, to the point that I considered not posting this story, but decided to regardless because news is news and should not be censored, just because some people will misuse it.

In any case, and regardless of your overall views on political violence, your response is extraordinarily naïve.

"Unless the angry leftists succeeded"? What, you think that they can bash a few heads, and then the Republicans will all be cowed into not trying something like this next time? :lol:

As I may have said before, this is basically the fantasy of the "short, victorious war". Its the same damn mindset, on a smaller scale, as the people who marched eagerly off to fight in WWI, assuming that the war would be over in a few months and they'd be home by Christmas.

More likely, the Right would use any violence to further fuel their propaganda machine, portraying all Leftists as terrorist thugs, and use any violent incident that resulted in injury on death on their side to make the case for why they need militia thugs at all their events, and their would be plenty of those thugs who would answer the call. Also, the Right tends to have a lot more firepower in this country when it comes to domestic violence and terrorism. As Simon_Jester noted, it is entirely possible that these asshats are hoping to provoke a violent clash, for precisely such reasons. And that your response is exactly the sort of reaction they are looking for?

Now, I do completely support the right of any individual who faces a direct, immediate threat to their life (or the lives of others) to use force defensively if necessary. If (as is quite possible should this plan go ahead) these Right wing militia nuts start beating on or shooting Left-wing counter-protesters as a means of silencing dissent, then those protesters would have every right in the world to fight back with armed force.

But no one has the right to start that, nor should anyone deliberately take a course of action that increases the likelihood of that outcome. There are circumstances where violence is a necessity, yes. But I cannot agree with anyone who rushes to embrace that option, or actively tries to increase its likelihood. Or do you deny that you are making an argument that is obviously intended to encourage a violent outcome at a specific event?

Once you start down that road, their are no guarantees of a quick, easy victory. Far more likely is an escalating cycle of violence, which could be anything from something akin to the 1960s to a full civil war.

Let me ask you: As a liberal, did you support George W. Bush's preemptive strike on Iraq? If not, why would you condone a preemptive strike on anyone else?
Oh, and this made me chuckle:
Asked if he was considering such groups as security providers, Buchal said: “Yeah. We’re thinking about that. Because there are now belligerent, unstable people who are convinced that Republicans are like Nazis.”
... and then he went and did the sort of thing the Nazis were infamous for even back whjen Fascism was sort of mainstream and respectable. Does the US high school history curriculum skip over anything that happened in Europe between 1929 and about 1942 or is he just completely bereft of self-awareness?
Well, he's a Republican politician, so both malice and stupidity/ignorance are possible.

Or it could be both, I suppose.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Kon_El wrote:You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
Their are appropriate means by which to defend oneself, and then their are approaches that serve no purpose other than to increase the risk of violence all around. Inviting partisan radicals who are not professional security or law enforcement to provide security at a public political event during a tense and volatile situation is definitely the latter.

And yeah, its totally just been violence from the Left against the Right, and now the poor innocent persecuted Republicans are just standing up for themselves. :roll: I must have just imagined how our Republican "President" has an incitement of violence lawsuit going against him (which a judge has refused to throw out), and how multiple protesters were assaulted at his rallies, and how Right wing radicals have shot up/bombed abortion clinics, and how I recall reading that death threats against the President increased four-fold when Obama was sworn in, and how Right-wing militias engaged in an armed stand off with Federal law enforcement at Bundy ranch, where they threatened to use women and children as human shields, and how they repeated the offense by engaging in an armed occupation of Federal property, and the multiple shootings by Right-wing/White Nationalist extremists, and the Oklahoma City Bombing, and "Second Amendment remedies", and on and on and on.

I do not condone Left-wing political violence, but let's not pretend that this escalation is happening in a vacume, or that its a simple narrative of Left-wing perpetrators and Right-wing victims. Their are people on both sides who have been actively pushing us in this direction, but until the era of Trump, it was overwhelmingly coming from the Right, and the Right has kept it up, with the tacit (and sometimes explicit) support of the President.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Kon_El wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote:Bro, literal fucking Nazis are the ones that left-leaning individuals have punched.
Even literal fucking Nazis have the right assemble and speak without being attacked.
You know, I'm not gonna lose sleep over a genocidal fucklord getting punched. If you think advocating genocide is a-okay that's your thing, and you have a right to that opinion. The end goal of Nazis is to kill or enslave the "lesser" races. Those fuckers should be afraid to spread those views. "Debate" doesn't kill Nazi-ism.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Their are appropriate means by which to defend oneself, and then their are approaches that serve no purpose other than to increase the risk of violence all around. Inviting partisan radicals who are not professional security or law enforcement to provide security at a public political event during a tense and volatile situation is definitely the latter.
To be sure it is a terrible idea but that was my point. There is a big difference between the things you listed and organizing small armies to attack political opponents in the street. Escalation breeds escalation. That is how civil wars get started.
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Kon_El wrote: Even literal fucking Nazis have the right assemble and speak without being attacked.
You know, I'm not gonna lose sleep over a genocidal fucklord getting punched. If you think advocating genocide is a-okay that's your thing, and you have a right to that opinion. The end goal of Nazis is to kill or enslave the "lesser" races. Those fuckers should be afraid to spread those views. "Debate" doesn't kill Nazi-ism.
They have the right to say it. That is what freedom of speech is about. I may hate the vile things they say but I will defend their right to speak without the threat of violence. There are people who would be just as willing to silence your speech with violence. I would oppose them too.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Solauren »

This has problem written all over it.

There is a reason any sane organization uses police officers or actual trained security guards.

I mean, it's not like hiring armed/jacked up types for security has ever back fired.....

Oh wait, it has.....

The Time hells Angels was the security at a concert, and they stabbed someone to death in the course of their duties....

Sure, that's a rather unique circumstance, as Meredith Hunter was drugged out of his mind and drew a gun, but a security guard would have at least had a baton or something.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I expected this sort of argument, to the point that I considered not posting this story, but decided to regardless because news is news and should not be censored, just because some people will misuse it.

In any case, and regardless of your overall views on political violence, your response is extraordinarily naïve.

"Unless the angry leftists succeeded"? What, you think that they can bash a few heads, and then the Republicans will all be cowed into not trying something like this next time? :lol:
That wasn't quite what I meant, actually. What I was trying to say is that if these particular Republicans are hoping to provoke a riot so they have an excuse to gun down progressives in the street, their plan will rather badly backfire if they end up losing the ensuing pitched battle and getting lynched.

Mind you, I stand by my position that if the Left made examples of a few egregiously unpleasant hardliners in the GOP then it might have a welcome chilling effect; some of them will probably double down out of spite, but the smarter ones will at least ask themselves the question, "Do I believe in this stuff hard enough to be tarred and feathered over it?"

And please don't take this personally, but you know how I said that if you keep ignoring a bully and trying to be the better person and suchlike instead of hitting back, they'll just keep on escalating it? This sort of stunt is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. And it's not going to stop here, either; I suppose in a few months some idiot will propose deputising the militia.

The line has got to be drawn somewhere. And I don't know about you, but I think it would be a good idea to shut this shit down hard before someone tries to bring about an American Kristallnacht.

(Emphasis on 'tries', mind you; if the current Republican Party had a head of media relations anywhere closes to as good at their job as Goebbels was at his then the USA's slow downward spiral into fascism would be a done deal already.)
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I agree that this can't simply be allowed to escalate, that the line has to be drawn somewhere. And I tend to hold Obama partly responsible, for not coming down harder on the Bundy crowd. But we have to ask what kind of response will be most effective- what sort of response is more likely to deter, and which is more likely to escalate conflict.

Sure, if you have a street battle in Portland, the Leftist faction might "win" (if you call "slightly more of them are hurt/dead at the end of the day" winning). But it would probably lead to escalating and retaliatory violence, and play right into the extremists' hands (on both sides).

Mind you, I'm deeply skeptical that they would win, since the Right wing extremists would probably be packing firearms, and the Oathkeepers are by definition people with military or law enforcement training.

I'm not sure what the best response would be. Making it clear that we are willing and able to exercise force in self-defence might serve as a deterrent, or it might simply encourage those for whom a violent conflict is the goal, but its hard to see how we could convey that message without someone deciding that the best defence is a good offence, and shooting first. Perhaps educating Democrats and Left-wing activists on what the laws are, what their rights are, and when it is appropriate to carry a weapon or use force in self-defence.

Obviously, where we have state/local government that is still amenable to the rule of law, they ought to restrict militia activities as much as the law permits, and governments unwilling to do so should be subjected to political pressure.

Suing the hell out of the Republicans if an incident happens might be an option, too- take it out of their pocketbooks if there's trouble.

I've also previously discussed (in the thread on a Democratic candidate withdrawing due to death threats) that perhaps the Democratic Party could hire private security for their candidates in high risk races/areas. No doubt, if so, that could be extended to our events. And before anyone asks how this is different from what the Republicans are doing, I'm talking about hiring trained, liscenced, professional private security.

This is just off the top of my head- I don't claim expertise in this subject, and doubtless others could offer more. But my purpose is to maintain democracy and the rule of law, and I don't think we do that by jumping to a violent response before trying the other options.

So what I am saying is not "knuckle under". What I am saying is "choose your response carefully". As opposed to going off half-cocked.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

Well, I envy you your continued sangfroid, that's all I can say. I've got family and friends who are damn near as close who will be high-priority targets if those militias get told it's open season on anyone the Republicans don't like, and I am deeply afraid for their safety to the point where I have all but begged them on bended knee to arm themselves.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote:Well, I envy you your continued sangfroid, that's all I can say. I've got family and friends who are damn near as close who will be high-priority targets if those militias get told it's open season on anyone the Republicans don't like, and I am deeply afraid for their safety to the point where I have all but begged them on bended knee to arm themselves.
And I say again that I do not object to individuals exercising the right to self-defence if attacked, nor do I object to private ownership of weapons in all circumstances.

And you know, I have friends and family in the US, most of whom are liberals, and some of whom are members of minority groups. So I'm not entirely unable to relate to your concerns.

I simply don't want to see understandable anger and fear drive people to ill-considered reactions that will make the situation worse. Because, you know, I don't want to see people killed.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'd also like to hear why you apparently feel that the responses I proposed would be less effective than street battles or terrorist attacks to make an example of Republican officials.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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