Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote:And I say again that I do not object to individuals exercising the right to self-defence if attacked, nor do I object to private ownership of weapons in all circumstances.

And you know, I have friends and family in the US, most of whom are liberals, and some of whom are members of minority groups. So I'm not entirely unable to relate to your concerns.

I simply don't want to see understandable anger and fear drive people to ill-considered reactions that will make the situation worse. Because, you know, I don't want to see people killed.
Believe it or not, I don't want to see people killed either. But I don't think we can avoid people getting killed at some point, and letting the other side fire the first shot buys us nothing but a minor moral victory, which would be cold comfort to the families of the dead and of dubious benefit to the living; if you're at the point of choosing your government with gunfire then who the hell cares whose side the media take?

And hell, I'd rather get the complete collapse of Western Civilisation over with already instead of watch it slowly and painfully deteriorating around us. Maybe whoever's left standing afterwards will build something better.
The Romulan Republic wrote:I'd also like to hear why you apparently feel that the responses I proposed would be less effective than street battles or terrorist attacks to make an example of Republican officials.
Because your responses lack one important characteristic: They don't affect the kind of Republican officials we need to target, ie the ones who are motivated only by greed, ambition and self-preservation.

We can't incentivise them to not do this kind of awful shit by offering them money or power because they can't be trusted with either, and we can't appeal to their better nature because we'd never be able to find the poor shrivelled nub of a thing. But what we can do, if we're willing to take the necessary measures, is make them scared. In a perfect world we'd do this with a justice system and law-enforcement organisations free of partisan politics, and a press that was committed to reporting nothing but substantiated fact no matter what the editorial line. But we don't, so we have to use the tools we have available: Buckets of hot tar, sacks of feathers and a fence rail. Hell, that might even work in the Left's favour from a PR perspective; conservatives like to ramble on about Traditional American Values, and what's more traditionally American than mob justice?

(I wish we had a 'laughing on the outside, screaming at the sky in despair on the inside' smiley.)
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote:Believe it or not, I don't want to see people killed either. But I don't think we can avoid people getting killed at some point,
Do you have any idea how many evil things have been justified by the assumption that they were inevitable?

Fate is a wonderful excuse for people to act on their impulses without considering other options.

Moreover, their are degrees of catastrophe. Let's say that you're right that some people will inevitably die. Alright then, the question is: should we pick a course of action that will try to limit the number of dead, or should we just say "Fuck it, their are going to be dead people, so let's just make a few more?"
and letting the other side fire the first shot buys us nothing but a minor moral victory,
Hardly a minor one, and you completely ignore the symbolic importance.

In terms of public perception, and sympathy, there is a great deal of difference between a victim fighting back in self-defence, and an aggressor who fired the first shot.

Keep in mind that the majority of the public do not share your belief that political violence and murder are inevitable or necessary. If elements of the Left start a riots, or God forbid a civil war, for the purposes of intimidating the opposition, do not imagine that public opinion will be in their favour.

Remember also that in the run-up to the American Civil War, a time where violence very much was inevitable, insomuch as anything is "inevitable" (thanks to the fanaticism of the South on slavery), just (to overthrow the institution of slavery and put down an unlawful armed rebellion), and necessary (to preserve a united, democratic America), Abraham Lincoln's administration nonetheless went to great pains to limit their initial response, to offer the South a chance for peace, and only declare war after the South started it- in part to make it abundantly clear that the South, not the North, was the aggressor.
which would be cold comfort to the families of the dead and of dubious benefit to the living; if you're at the point of choosing your government with gunfire then who the hell cares whose side the media take?
You do know that PR and public support matter tremendously in both politics and warfare, don't you?

I'm sorry, but when you say things like this, it makes me think that either you are reacting purely on emotion and have put zero thought into the consequences and implications of your position, or that you are being disingenuous.
And hell, I'd rather get the complete collapse of Western Civilisation over with already instead of watch it slowly and painfully deteriorating around us. Maybe whoever's left standing afterwards will build something better.
This is the classic "apocalyptic fantasy". The world will end, all the bad people will burn, and then a new utopia will arise from the ashes. You even regard your apocalypse as inevitable, predestined.

With all due respect, you are operating off much the same basic psychology, in my opinion, as the Book of Revelations. Just with a different ideological coat of paint.
Because your responses lack one important characteristic: They don't affect the kind of Republican officials we need to target, ie the ones who are motivated only by greed, ambition and self-preservation.
I did mention suing the Republican Party/Republican officials over any incidents. Go after their money.
We can't incentivise them to not do this kind of awful shit by offering them money or power because they can't be trusted with either, and we can't appeal to their better nature because we'd never be able to find the poor shrivelled nub of a thing. But what we can do, if we're willing to take the necessary measures, is make them scared. In a perfect world we'd do this with a justice system and law-enforcement organisations free of partisan politics, and a press that was committed to reporting nothing but substantiated fact no matter what the editorial line. But we don't, so we have to use the tools we have available: Buckets of hot tar, sacks of feathers and a fence rail. Hell, that might even work in the Left's favour from a PR perspective; conservatives like to ramble on about Traditional American Values, and what's more traditionally American than mob justice?

(I wish we had a 'laughing on the outside, screaming at the sky in despair on the inside' smiley.)
You are directly and explicitly advocating terrorist acts, and I do not share your assumption that this will win, or at least will not cost, a great deal of sympathy with the American people (and the rest of the world).

I think, to be honest, that your problem is that you've allowed your emotions to get the better of you, have latched onto a single option as the only viable one, and are actively ignoring both the problems with what you propose, and any alternative possibilities.

Edit: I wonder how many of the Oathkeepers feel that it is inevitable that a civil war will be fought when the government comes to take their guns? How much of the current situation we're in is a result of people who are frightened and angry concluding that violence is the only option, and actively steering us toward that eventuality because they cannot, or refuse to, see any other?
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'll add that violent extremism on one side tends, in general, to feed violent extremism on the other. Right-Islamophobes gain strength and numbers when Daesh runs a van into a crowd or something, and Daesh in turn wants Muslims to be persecuted, to feel persecuted, because it means more recruits for them. Both sides want a "West vs. Islam" war.

I do not wish to see the same phenomenon in our domestic politics, where Left and Right wing violence fuel each other, with extremists on both sides wanting a Left vs. Right war.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think, to be honest, that your problem is that you've allowed your emotions to get the better of you, have latched onto a single option as the only viable one, and are actively ignoring both the problems with what you propose, and any alternative possibilities.
Now you mention it? Yeah, very probably.

I am however willing to be persuaded to stop doing that if a) the US Left actually bother doing the stuff you suggest instead of continuing to essentially ignore the problem and hope it goes away by itself, and b) it actually has some sort of tangible effect.

I'm not getting my hopes up, though. Nothing good ever comes of me doing that.
The Romulan Republic wrote:I do not wish to see the same phenomenon in our domestic politics, where Left and Right wing violence fuel each other, with extremists on both sides wanting a Left vs. Right war.
Could you live with a Left vs Right Cold War, kept from going hot by the threat of Mutually Assured Lynching?

Sorry. That sounded funnier in my head.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

Ghetto Edit: If at any point in this discussion you have questioned whether I'm entirely right in the head? Yeah... probably not.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote:Now you mention it? Yeah, very probably.
Well, at least you recognize that.

What I'm saying, and I'm saying this to everyone, is to please stop and try to consider, rationally, the consequences of your actions, especially in politics. The stakes are too high to do anything else.
I am however willing to be persuaded to stop doing that if a) the US Left actually bother doing the stuff you suggest instead of continuing to essentially ignore the problem and hope it goes away by itself, and b) it actually has some sort of tangible effect.

I'm not getting my hopes up, though. Nothing good ever comes of me doing that.
I'm no stranger to pessimism, but I try to keep in mind that the future is unpredictable, and that their are both good and bad outcomes possible.

I do agree that more needs to be done by the Left in response to political violence (both from the Right and from our own ranks). My suggestion is not to simply do nothing in the face of aggression.

The way I see it, there are two potential evils: one is to allow the situation to escalate to wholesale violence, and the other is to role over and do nothing. I consider neither of those outcomes remotely acceptable, and perhaps the foremost challenge of the Left today to be finding a third option.
Could you live with a Left vs Right Cold War, kept from going hot by the threat of Mutually Assured Lynching?

Sorry. That sounded funnier in my head.
I have no confidence that it would remain a Cold War, as I've previously said.

Hell, the actual Cold War very nearly didn't on a number of occasions.

You play with fire, and sooner or later, you're likely to get burned.
Zaune wrote:Ghetto Edit: If at any point in this discussion you have questioned whether I'm entirely right in the head? Yeah... probably not.
Again, at least you recognize it.

God knows I don't know much about psychology, but I tend to think that the most concerning people are the ones who lack self-awareness.

I'm also aware that I may be throwing stones in a glass house when it comes to self-awareness, to some extent.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'll add that, as far as escalation vs. deterrence is concerned, during the run-up to the American Civil War, we had a great deal of political violence on both sides (see Kansas-Nebraska and John Brown, for a start), and a culture that legally permitted formalized duelling. It did not deter further violence- it simply escalated and escalated until a third of the country decided to walk, and we ended up burning cities and firing massed volleys of musket balls and artillery shells at each other.

So, not a great precedent. Especially considering that a repeat today would replace musket balls and artillery shells with machine guns and drones/missiles, and probably involve a lot more urban warfare.

Edit: In fact, looking at the Civil War is essential, in my opinion, to any understanding of how America got to where it is today, and what is potentially at stake. The situations are in many respects very different, thankfully, but we are nonetheless still grappling with many of the same divisions, particularly on race and the rule of law- only with the Republicans and the Democrats having effectively switched places. And it provides the clearest historical example, for America, of just how bad a place such divisions can take us to.

There is a reason a Lincoln quote is my sig.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Raw Shark »

Awww, you beat me to Altamont. I should've read this thread sooner.

A friend of mine's Dad back when I was a kid was an oldschool Hell's Angel who knew a couple of guys at that concert, and he always swore up and down that, "Sure, we stabbed him! But it was the hippies that finished him off!"

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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Solauren »

Raw Shark wrote:
Awww, you beat me to Altamont. I should've read this thread sooner.

A friend of mine's Dad back when I was a kid was an oldschool Hell's Angel who knew a couple of guys at that concert, and he always swore up and down that, "Sure, we stabbed him! But it was the hippies that finished him off!"
And yet the video footage says otherwise
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Tvpnbb »

Solauren wrote:
Raw Shark wrote:
Awww, you beat me to Altamont. I should've read this thread sooner.

A friend of mine's Dad back when I was a kid was an oldschool Hell's Angel who knew a couple of guys at that concert, and he always swore up and down that, "Sure, we stabbed him! But it was the hippies that finished him off!"
And yet the video footage says otherwise
As far as I know the video footage actually says that the Hell's Angel in question acted in self-defence, which is why he was acquitted at the trial.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Tsyroc »

Raw Shark wrote:
Awww, you beat me to Altamont. I should've read this thread sooner.

A friend of mine's Dad back when I was a kid was an oldschool Hell's Angel who knew a couple of guys at that concert, and he always swore up and down that, "Sure, we stabbed him! But it was the hippies that finished him off!"

That's what this thread made me first think of too.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

Kon_El wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Kon_El wrote:You can't really look at the things that have been going on in Burkeley and act like this is some out of the blue development. People will defend themselves if attacked and prepare accordingly if they expect to be attacked.
Precisely who has been attacked, by whom, in what way, and is allowing political parties to sprout paramilitary goon squads rather than politically neutral police the correct response?

Hint: political parties with their own armed goon squads break democracy every single time, unless the goons are suppressed.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp ... nt-n715711

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/us/u ... oulos.html

150 goon squad members with masks and carrying sticks stormed the event and started kicking asses and setting fires because they didn't want Milo Yiannopoulos to speak. I have even read accusations that the Burkeley police were suspiciously absent until well after the damage had been done even though threats of violence had been issued beforehand. When the rescheduled event took place things got really crazy. This didn't start in Portland.
Good. Nazi's should get the shit kicked out of them at every opportunity. They want to at best take away the rights of people based on how they are born and at worst murder them all. Fuck Nazis and anyone who defends them.
Napoleon the Clown wrote:Bro, literal fucking Nazis are the ones that left-leaning individuals have punched.
Even literal fucking Nazis have the right assemble and speak without being attacked.
Why? Fuck Nazis. Just like the second amendment that needs serious modifications so that Americans can go to movies without worrying about sitting in a shooting gallery, the first amendment needs to be modified to ban hate speech by Nazi cunts.

Your post boils down to "THE NAZIS! OH WON'T SOMEBODY THINK ABOUT THE NAZIS?!?!" :lol: :wanker:
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

Kon_El wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Their are appropriate means by which to defend oneself, and then their are approaches that serve no purpose other than to increase the risk of violence all around. Inviting partisan radicals who are not professional security or law enforcement to provide security at a public political event during a tense and volatile situation is definitely the latter.
To be sure it is a terrible idea but that was my point. There is a big difference between the things you listed and organizing small armies to attack political opponents in the street. Escalation breeds escalation. That is how civil wars get started.
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
Kon_El wrote: Even literal fucking Nazis have the right assemble and speak without being attacked.
You know, I'm not gonna lose sleep over a genocidal fucklord getting punched. If you think advocating genocide is a-okay that's your thing, and you have a right to that opinion. The end goal of Nazis is to kill or enslave the "lesser" races. Those fuckers should be afraid to spread those views. "Debate" doesn't kill Nazi-ism.
They have the right to say it. That is what freedom of speech is about. I may hate the vile things they say but I will defend their right to speak without the threat of violence. There are people who would be just as willing to silence your speech with violence. I would oppose them too.
Why? Words on paper? Fuck Nazis. They have literally nothing to say of any value to society, and in fact, it's the exact opposite. If a magic button got pushed that erased every Nazi from existence it would be a net benefit to society.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Flagg wrote: Good. Nazi's should get the shit kicked out of them at every opportunity. They want to at best take away the rights of people based on how they are born and at worst murder them all. Fuck Nazis and anyone who defends them.
Who gets to decide who is a Nazi? Bullshit.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

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Kon_El wrote:Who gets to decide who is a Nazi? Bullshit.
I think if someone does the 1488 on video, it's safe to say that person is a Nazi.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

Kon_El wrote:
Flagg wrote: Good. Nazi's should get the shit kicked out of them at every opportunity. They want to at best take away the rights of people based on how they are born and at worst murder them all. Fuck Nazis and anyone who defends them.
Who gets to decide who is a Nazi? Bullshit.
People with ears that hear Nazis talk and eyes that see Nazi emblems? If that's bullshit, what standard would you use? I'd suggest telepathy but then you'd defend Nazis by whining about thought crime.

Next you'll cry about freedom while gleefully ignoring Western and much of Central Europe.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

Is Milo a Nazi? That is who they used violence to silence. If you are advocating violence against people who have been given a label how do you prevent that label from growing to encompass people for the sake of silencing them with violence? Advocating violence to silence people (even vile people) is oppression.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Dragon Angel »

Kon_El wrote:Is Milo a Nazi? That is who they used violence to silence. If you are advocating violence against people who have been given a label how do you prevent that label from growing to encompass people for the sake of silencing them with violence? Advocating violence to silence people (even vile people) is oppression.
If you'd bothered to have done a modicum of research, you would know just why people tend to violently dislike Milo.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

Kon_El wrote:Is Milo a Nazi? That is who they used violence to silence. If you are advocating violence against people who have been given a label how do you prevent that label from growing to encompass people for the sake of silencing them with violence? Advocating violence to silence people (even vile people) is oppression.
I'm not advocating violence against Nazis and other peddlers of hate and pro-genocide speech, I'm simply saying I don't overly give a fuck and won't cry too hard if at all over a few (or more) spilled Nazis. What I am advocating is modifying the First Amendment to allow for the total banning of all hate speech (especially the advocacy of genocide and mass murder) of people based on conditions of birth.

So violence against Nazis and hate-speech peddlers? No, though it doesn't overly concern me even though I'd rather it not happen. Arresting the shit eating fuckers and tossing them in prison for a few years? Hell yes! (You have no idea how hard it was to not say "Heil yes!").
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Zaune »

The problem with that argument is that if we start bending the 1st Amendment "just this once for a really good reason", it becomes easier to justify doing it again for a moderately good reason. Then a merely okay reason. And so on and so forth until we're on our way down a slippery slope that has nothing good at the bottom.

Either the rules apply to everyone or they're not worth the paper on which they're written.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

Zaune wrote:The problem with that argument is that if we start bending the 1st Amendment "just this once for a really good reason", it becomes easier to justify doing it again for a moderately good reason. Then a merely okay reason. And so on and so forth until we're on our way down a slippery slope that has nothing good at the bottom.

Either the rules apply to everyone or they're not worth the paper on which they're written.
Slippery slope is a logical fallacy for a reason. It's really hard to get an amendment passed and adding "except for hate speech" is worth it. Like I said, Western Europe is doing just fine.
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houser2112
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by houser2112 »

While I agree with the sentiment, just defining "hate speech" is probably too difficult to pass the amendment process, let alone be enforceable. Just look at all the bullshit that surrounds the 2nd Amendment language "well regulated militia" and "infringe".
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Flagg
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Flagg »

houser2112 wrote:While I agree with the sentiment, just defining "hate speech" is probably too difficult to pass the amendment process, let alone be enforceable. Just look at all the bullshit that surrounds the 2nd Amendment language "well regulated militia" and "infringe".
Well we can get the lawyers to solidify it before we take Shakespeare's advice and kill them all. :lol: :twisted: :wink:
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Kon_El »

Dragon Angel wrote: If you'd bothered to have done a modicum of research, you would know just why people tend to violently dislike Milo.
I have watched the man speak. I know who he is.
Flagg wrote: I'm not advocating violence against Nazis and other peddlers of hate and pro-genocide speech, I'm simply saying I don't overly give a fuck and won't cry too hard if at all over a few (or more) spilled Nazis.
The problem with that train of thought is that if people don't feel like they will be protected by the law they tend to arm themselve (or hire less than reputable security) which leads to violent escalation. You may laugh when those rotten bastards get punched in the face but when it leads to a massacre you may feel differently.
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Re: Portland Republicans considering using militia groups as "security" for public events.

Post by Dragon Angel »

Kon_El wrote:I have watched the man speak. I know who he is.
Then you should know the consequences of his follower base going ballistic on whomever he targets. A trans woman whom he wrote a hit piece on alleging that she was a pedophile. A black woman whom he sicced so much harassment on that Twitter had to finally stop ignoring the damage he was causing. In this story, another trans woman whom he outed in front of an audience of frothing dogs. There were reports that he was going to out several undocumented students at another university, and I trust I don't need to tell you what that means in today's administration.

What Milo does is not a mere "exchange of ideas". It's not "just a discussion". He actively endangers people and those in power who have witnessed it have refused to act to stop him. Therefore, people begin to view nonviolent protest as ineffective. Stronger measures are adopted.

If there are people to blame for this happening, it is the vast numbers of university officials, law enforcement authorities, and clueless bystanders who allow this to continue. Not those who are affected.
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