UKIP Leadership thread 2017

[jwl]

Paul Nuttall has resigned as Ukip leader after his party's woeful showing at the General Election.

The Eurosceptic party had been hoping to make gains in Thursday's poll, with Mr Nuttall running a campaign pledging to "ensure there is no backsliding on Brexit".

But after Ukip failed to gain a single seat in Westminster - and with Mr Nuttall coming third in Boston and Skegness - he opted to leave his position, telling reporters: "A new era must begin with a new leader."

He said he had left the foundations for the new leader to build on and ensured that the party was "still on the pitch".

And he insisted Ukip was "more relevant than ever" and would play the role in the coming months of the "guard dogs of Brexit".

Mr Nuttall told a news conference: "It is clear that Ukip requires a new focus, new ideas and a new energy - and it is there amongst out ranks.

"I think, regardless of the score last night, I have laid the foundations for the future in this General Election campaign but it will be for someone else to build on those."

Asked about a future role for former leader Nigel Farage, Mr Nuttall said: "If Nigel Farage wants to come back, I would be more than happy to do a job swap. I'll take his slot on LBC and he can come back as leader of Ukip."

Earlier, Mr Farage said he did not blame Mr Nuttall for the party's poor showing.

Asked on LBC radio about the prospects of a comeback, he said: "Whether leading or playing a prominent role is perhaps a different question."

Mr Nuttall failed in his bid to win a Commons seat on Thursday, finishing a distant third in Brexit heartland Boston and Skegness behind the Tories.

It was the Ukip leader's sixth attempt to get into Parliament, having finished second behind Labour at the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election earlier this year.

The party was hoping to make gains in the Lincolnshire seat, which yielded one of the highest votes for Leave in last year's EU referendum.

But Mr Nuttall saw Ukip's share of the vote slide 26.1% to 3,308 votes, while Labour increased its vote by 8.5% to 10,699 and the Tories by 19.8% to 27,271.

The decline in the Ukip vote was seen across the country, with the party's vote share down to around 2% nationally, splitting between Labour and the Conservatives.

Asked what next, Mr Nuttall replied: "What now for me? Holiday. Or if that bar is open, a pint..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06 ... -election/

The thread poll includes the current top 5 candidates on oddschecker, excluding Aaron Banks who is ineligible.

[The Romulan Republic]

"Eurosceptic" is far too flattering a term for them. They're fascists. May they flounder in continued irrelevance.

[Iroscato]

They're pretty much done, stick a fork in 'em. Farage will probably come back as interim leader but it won't stop it petering out further.

[Dartzap]

The massive drop in votes basically means they don't get any airtime ever again. It's a glorious thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer party.

[Zaune]

I'd be more inclined to celebrate if they weren't becoming irrelevant because they've basically accomplished everything they were founded to achieve.

[JI_Joe84]

So which were the brexit people and which party has won? Keep in mind I'm no from great Britain.

[Zaune]

So which were the brexit people and which party has won? Keep in mind I'm no from great Britain.

Think of UKIP as the Tea Party and the Conservatives as the mainstream GOP. Except that UKIP didn't start out making a few valid points before getting hijacked by wealthy donors with their own agenda.

[HortonX25]

So which were the brexit people and which party has won? Keep in mind I'm no from great Britain.

Think of UKIP as the Tea Party and the Conservatives as the mainstream GOP. Except that UKIP didn't start out making a few valid points before getting hijacked by wealthy donors with their own agenda.

UKIP remind me more so of the Trump wing of the GOP. The DUP seem more like the Tea Party, not that there isn't obvious overlap between the two that is.

[Darth Tanner]

"Eurosceptic" is far too flattering a term for them. They're fascists. May they flounder in continued irrelevance.

In what way are they fascist?

Its a shame Nuttel couldnt stay until after Brexit conclude, it would be a good way to keep Farrage out and further erode any UKIP support by him pushing a racial politics. If they get someone more reasonable in or god forbid Farrage returns Brexit will get more attention and our chances of getting a softer Breixt are lessoned.

[jwl]

So which were the brexit people and which party has won? Keep in mind I'm no from great Britain.

Think of UKIP as the Tea Party and the Conservatives as the mainstream GOP. Except that UKIP didn't start out making a few valid points before getting hijacked by wealthy donors with their own agenda.

UKIP remind me more so of the Trump wing of the GOP. The DUP seem more like the Tea Party, not that there isn't obvious overlap between the two that is.

Well one of the favourites for leadership I put in the poll, Raheem Kassam, is editor-in-chief of Breitbart London and therefore one of Farage's biggest links to Trump (via Bannon). If you look back to those pictures of Farage in Trump Tower, Kassam is there.

In other news, Jonathan Arnott resigns his position with an implied attack on Susanne Evans: http://news.sky.com/story/jonathan-arno ... e-10910078

[Tribble]

UKIP was a one-issue party that doesn't really need to exist anymore. The referendum was held, the Leave Vote won, the vote in parliament was held and they voted to leave, Article 50 was triggered, another election was held where the two main parties supported Brexit... I'm pretty confident now that the UK is leaving. The only question is whether or not it is going to be a "soft" Brexit or a full break from the EU; given the election results the former seems more likely atm.

IMO wanting to leave the EU does not = Fascism in and of itself, though some of the attitudes surrounding it certainly are.

[The Romulan Republic]

"Eurosceptic" is far too flattering a term for them. They're fascists. May they flounder in continued irrelevance.

In what way are they fascist?

Its a shame Nuttel couldnt stay until after Brexit conclude, it would be a good way to keep Farrage out and further erode any UKIP support by him pushing a racial politics. If they get someone more reasonable in or god forbid Farrage returns Brexit will get more attention and our chances of getting a softer Breixt are lessoned.

They're xenophobic bigots and nationalists (in the worst sense of nationalism), and Farage has known ties to and sympathies for Trump and Bannon.

I repeat, he is now a person of interest in the Trump/Russia investigation.

So if he and his supporters aren't fascist, then they are certainly, at the very least, in common cause and collaboration with neo-fascists.

UKIP was a one-issue party that doesn't really need to exist anymore. The referendum was held, the Leave Vote won, the vote in parliament was held and they voted to leave, Article 50 was triggered, another election was held where the two main parties supported Brexit... I'm pretty confident now that the UK is leaving. The only question is whether or not it is going to be a "soft" Brexit or a full break from the EU; given the election results the former seems more likely atm.

You think all they want is Brexit? Maybe some of them, but I dare say a lot of them won't be satisfied while anyone who's not lily-white and English going back several centuries is in the country.

IMO wanting to leave the EU does not = Fascism in and of itself,

I don't believe anyone said it did.

though some of the attitudes surrounding it certainly are.

The reasons why certain people (particularly many in UKIP, I think) want Brexit is why I call them fascists.

[Tribble]

You think all they want is Brexit? Maybe some of them, but I dare say a lot of them won't be satisfied while anyone who's not lily-white and English going back several centuries is in the country.

In the 2015 election UKIP received ~3.8 million votes. In the 2017 election they received less than 600,000. IMO its safe to say that the majority (though not all) of UKIP's supporters in the 2015 election did view Brexit as the #1 priority, but now that Article 50 has been triggered they have reverted back to more mainstream parties. Many of the ones that are left are probably as you've described (though some likely voted UKIP to keep up the pressure on Brexit). Seeing as the "UK Independence" part of the UK Independence Party's platform is about to be fulfilled I really don't see how they plan on staying relevant long term, unless they undergo some major rebranding or something.

I don't believe anyone said it did.

There has been debate on other threads over whether or not leaving the EU should be considered extremist politics. IMO there are enough legitimate concerns over the EU that the desire to leave is not an extreme position to take in and of itself, though I acknowledge that Brexit has been more or less hijacked by anti-immigrant dogma. Some here may disagree.

The reasons why certain people (particularly many in UKIP, I think) want Brexit is why I call them fascists.

Fair enough.

[bilateralrope]

The only question is whether or not it is going to be a "soft" Brexit or a full break from the EU;

Why do you think the EU is going to allow the option of a 'soft' Brexit ?

[Tribble]

The only question is whether or not it is going to be a "soft" Brexit or a full break from the EU;

Why do you think the EU is going to allow the option of a 'soft' Brexit ?

If "Soft Brexit" involves EEA membership and the UK decides to take that option the EU may not have a choice in the matter. The UK is a separate signatory to the EEA agreement, and the EEA agreement contains a withdrawal clause which is separate from Article 50 (which as far as I know has not been triggered yet).

Whether or not the UK takes that option is another matter, right now I'd say odds have gone up when compared to before the election but its far from certain.

[jwl]

You think all they want is Brexit? Maybe some of them, but I dare say a lot of them won't be satisfied while anyone who's not lily-white and English going back several centuries is in the country.

Don't be ridiculous. A good amount of promenant UKIP people aren't lily-white and haven't got an English family going back centuries.

Anyway, David Coburn (the Scottish UKIP MEP) is running for UKIP leader, and he also said many of the same thing Jonathan Arnott said during his resignation. http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-cob ... ?r=US&IR=T (Interestingly enough, he doesn't have an English family going back centuries, seeing as he's not English).

[Thanas]

The only question is whether or not it is going to be a "soft" Brexit or a full break from the EU;

Why do you think the EU is going to allow the option of a 'soft' Brexit ?

If "Soft Brexit" involves EEA membership and the UK decides to take that option the EU may not have a choice in the matter. The UK is a separate signatory to the EEA agreement, and the EEA agreement contains a withdrawal clause which is separate from Article 50 (which as far as I know has not been triggered yet).

Whether or not the UK takes that option is another matter, right now I'd say odds have gone up when compared to before the election but its far from certain.

I thought I explained multiple times already that one of the membership requirements is to either be an associated country or a EU member and with Brexit the UK would be neither

[The Romulan Republic]

You think all they want is Brexit? Maybe some of them, but I dare say a lot of them won't be satisfied while anyone who's not lily-white and English going back several centuries is in the country.

Don't be ridiculous. A good amount of promenant UKIP people aren't lily-white and haven't got an English family going back centuries.

Anyway, David Coburn (the Scottish UKIP MEP) is running for UKIP leader, and he also said many of the same thing Jonathan Arnott said during his resignation. http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-cob ... ?r=US&IR=T (Interestingly enough, he doesn't have an English family going back centuries, seeing as he's not English).

Yeah, and Trump has a black man on his Cabinet. Doesn't mean he doesn't pander to white nationalists.

[Tribble]

Why do you think the EU is going to allow the option of a 'soft' Brexit ?

If "Soft Brexit" involves EEA membership and the UK decides to take that option the EU may not have a choice in the matter. The UK is a separate signatory to the EEA agreement, and the EEA agreement contains a withdrawal clause which is separate from Article 50 (which as far as I know has not been triggered yet).

Whether or not the UK takes that option is another matter, right now I'd say odds have gone up when compared to before the election but its far from certain.

I thought I explained multiple times already that one of the membership requirements is to either be an associated country or a EU member and with Brexit the UK would be neither

And I've explained multiple times you'd probably need a court ruling on this. Generally speaking when it comes to contract law a signatory to an agreement is also a separate party to that agreement. It's not just the EU that signed off on the EEA, each country signed off on it as well and is listed as a contracting party. Also there is a separate withdrawal provision for the EEA (Article 127 of the EEA agreement), which implies that the process for leaving the EEA is separate from leaving the EU.

What's interesting is what would have happened if the UK had triggered Article 127 of the EEA agreement, but not Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

At any rate I don't see why the EU would be opposed to the UK staying in the EEA as the four fundamental freedoms would be preserved. The EU has demonstrated that's its willing to liberally interpret rules when it suits their purposes (such as holding off on countries being required to join the Euro), so unless their current plan is to punish the UK out of spite I don't see this being any real issue. Whether or not the UK ends up trying to remain in the EEA is a different story, as I've already said odds are higher now post-election but far from certain.

[Thanas]

And I've explained multiple times you'd probably need a court ruling on this.

No you don't.

Generally speaking when it comes to contract law a signatory to an agreement is also a separate party to that agreement. It's not just the EU that signed off on the EEA, each country signed off on it as well and is listed as a contracting party. Also there is a separate withdrawal provision for the EEA (Article 127 of the EEA agreement), which implies that the process for leaving the EEA is separate from leaving the EU. [7quote]

Again, not even the UK is believing they will be successful with doing this kind of a stunt to reap all the benefits without paying into anything. Because that is what this would result in and nobody for a second believes that this is an available choice.

I can tell you right now what would happen if May were to try something like this. The EU would laugh at them, say "nice try" and immediately enact border controls and tariffs.

[jwl]

You think all they want is Brexit? Maybe some of them, but I dare say a lot of them won't be satisfied while anyone who's not lily-white and English going back several centuries is in the country.

Don't be ridiculous. A good amount of promenant UKIP people aren't lily-white and haven't got an English family going back centuries.

Anyway, David Coburn (the Scottish UKIP MEP) is running for UKIP leader, and he also said many of the same thing Jonathan Arnott said during his resignation. http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-cob ... ?r=US&IR=T (Interestingly enough, he doesn't have an English family going back centuries, seeing as he's not English).

Yeah, and Trump has a black man on his Cabinet. Doesn't mean he doesn't pander to white nationalists.

Who is "he"? Nuttall, Farage, or Trump? You aren't really clear here.

In terms of UKIP's cabinet though, they have the mixed-race Irish-ancestry Patrick O'Flynn as their economics spokesman (i.e. he would have become chancellor if UKIP won the election). It's not what you would call a token addition, that's not a minor role.

I was addressing your claim that UKIP are fascist and that they want everyone who isn't white and doesn't have a family in England going back centuries to leave, not who they may or may not be pandering to. Although it seems unlikely Farage, Nuttall, or UKIP in general would pander to white nationalists, there aren't enough of them for it to be electorially worthwhile.

[Zaune]

UKIP as a party aren't really fascist, although they're the kind of hard-right populist movement that tends to attract people who believe a lot of the same things as genuine fascists but lack sufficient courage of their convictions to go the whole nine yards and wear the swastika. (Or rather the lightning bolt.) Individual members, however... Well, one of them once advocated mandatory abortion of foetuses with severe birth defects and another one I recall was heard saying that "Negros" make her nervous.

[Tribble]

No you don't.

Explain specially why not, and what parts of the EEA explicitly prohibit a signatory from remaining if that signatory leaves the EU. Particularly since there is a specific withdrawal provision for the EEA (Article 127) vs the EU (Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty).

Again, not even the UK is believing they will be successful with doing this kind of a stunt

As far as I am aware the Conservatives under May do not want to be in the EEA as that would involve respecting the four fundamental freedoms (goods, services, capital, and labour). They are fine with the first three but obviously have issues with the fourth, so they haven't even considered it as an option. As for Labour, I'm not exactly sure where they stand atm, though they seem to be leaning towards some form of "soft" Brexit. I wouldn't be surprised if they start pushing for the EEA at some point. Funnily enough UKIP did promote EEA membership, at least for awhile.

to reap all the benefits without paying into anything. Because that is what this would result in and nobody for a second believes that this is an available choice.

...?

You do realise that EEA members pay their fair share towards the EU budget, right? IIRC Norway pays something ~90% per capita what the UK does right now.

I can tell you right now what would happen if May were to try something like this. The EU would laugh at them, say "nice try" and immediately enact border controls and tariffs.

So they would deliberately sabotage things out of spite, even though the UK would likely still end up paying the around same amount per capita as Norway into the budget? Even though EEA memebership would still preserve the four fundamental freedoms, including immigration? I find that hard to believe.

It's far more likely that it will be the UK that insists on leaving the common market rather than the other way around IMO, though at least the odds swinging a bit more towards "soft" Brexit.

[The Romulan Republic]

Don't be ridiculous. A good amount of promenant UKIP people aren't lily-white and haven't got an English family going back centuries.

Anyway, David Coburn (the Scottish UKIP MEP) is running for UKIP leader, and he also said many of the same thing Jonathan Arnott said during his resignation. http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-cob ... ?r=US&IR=T (Interestingly enough, he doesn't have an English family going back centuries, seeing as he's not English).

Yeah, and Trump has a black man on his Cabinet. Doesn't mean he doesn't pander to white nationalists.

Who is "he"? Nuttall, Farage, or Trump? You aren't really clear here.

In terms of UKIP's cabinet though, they have the mixed-race Irish-ancestry Patrick O'Flynn as their economics spokesman (i.e. he would have become chancellor if UKIP won the election). It's not what you would call a token addition, that's not a minor role.

I was addressing your claim that UKIP are fascist and that they want everyone who isn't white and doesn't have a family in England going back centuries to leave, not who they may or may not be pandering to. Although it seems unlikely Farage, Nuttall, or UKIP in general would pander to white nationalists, there aren't enough of them for it to be electorially worthwhile.

I was referring to Trump- he has a token black cabinet member in Ben "stabby" Carson.

My point being that just because you include non-white people in your ranks, doesn't mean you aren't racist.