Democrats backing away from gun control

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by Simon_Jester »

Soontir C'boath wrote:The fact that Democrats have been doing poorly for several years now in federal and local seats such as only a third of state legislating bodies show their campaign tactics such as tacking to the right do not work. They'll just vote for the actual Republican. The rhetoric coming out of Democrats have been mealy mouth with no actual sense of policy other than vague or little change of promises. For example, majority of Democrats and Republicans have been polled to want single payer healthcare and yet majority of Democrats refuse to endorse it. Warren, probably the second most staunch Progressive behind Bernie took awhile to finally recently stated she is behind it, it's ridiculous.
The point I think is being missed here is that there's no obvious reason ALL the (D) issues need to be correlated.

Why does thinking single-payer health care is a good idea mean you have to think gun control is a good idea?

If there are large numbers of Americans who could be persuaded to support single payer health care, who could be persuaded to loathe the idea of the loss of the ACA causing millions to lose health insurance... But for whatever reason those same Americans think that the right to own guns is so important it's worth massive sacrifice...

Why not just say "okay fine, keep the guns, guns are not the point right now, health insurance is the point?" Why not pick the battle we can win and that is certain to affect millions, as opposed to the battle we will inevitably lose with the outcome that will affect thousands, and where it's not even obvious we're in the right?

It's not "running to the right" to give up on a single specific issue while continuing to fight hard on other issues where victory is more likely.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by Soontir C'boath »

You are mixing different things together in a thread that has been changing. My reply was not to the original post, but the more recent one regarding Democratic tactics.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Soontir C'boath wrote:The fact that Democrats have been doing poorly for several years now in federal and local seats such as only a third of state legislating bodies show their campaign tactics such as tacking to the right do not work. They'll just vote for the actual Republican. The rhetoric coming out of Democrats have been mealy mouth with no actual sense of policy other than vague or little change of promises. For example, majority of Democrats and Republicans have been polled to want single payer healthcare and yet majority of Democrats refuse to endorse it. Warren, probably the second most staunch Progressive behind Bernie took awhile to finally recently stated she is behind it, it's ridiculous.
The point I think is being missed here is that there's no obvious reason ALL the (D) issues need to be correlated.

Why does thinking single-payer health care is a good idea mean you have to think gun control is a good idea?
Because the sheer amount of gun related injuries and deaths in the United States is very high and treating them would be a drain on resources?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Soontir C'boath wrote:You are mixing different things together in a thread that has been changing. My reply was not to the original post, but the more recent one regarding Democratic tactics.
Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post directly above yours.
Flagg wrote:Because the sheer amount of gun related injuries and deaths in the United States is very high and treating them would be a drain on resources?
Gun-related deaths and injuries in the US aren't even in the same order of magnitude as the number of Americans affected severely by their lack of good health care.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Flagg wrote:
Because the sheer amount of gun related injuries and deaths in the United States is very high and treating them would be a drain on resources?
More minors die from ODing on drugs than firearm deaths. Certainly, more die from things like cancer or heart disease. More people probably die from drunk-driving related incidents than firearm related homicides.

I'm not wholly convinced that suicides will be waved away because a gun isn't handy; Over the Edge, when talking about suicides at the Grand Canyon, related a study about how less than 20% of suicides happen at a spur of a moment; the individual had been thinking about it for awhile. As it is, there are countries with very low gun ownership where the suicide rate remains high(higher than the US).


BTW, I find it hilarious that Shep is in here arguing essentially the same thing he always does. He de-friended me on FB because I had the audacity to post a blog entry by a well known figure in the US gun community saying, essentially, that gun rights is not the same thing as conservative, and you shouldn't treat it as such. Then he went off to his safe space after I told him to use his brain or expected to get some of his comments deleted. He thinks because his alt-reich buddies and Idiot King won the electoral college it's now acceptable to dial his lack of empathy up to 11.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Stricter Gun Control has a growing amount of support until people start to realize that it will affect them. Like a lot of surveys, you can swing the results easily through question phrasing. Like:

"Do you think a person should be able to walk into an Academy and walk out with a high-capacity assault rifle, like the one used in <insert shooting here>?" NOTE: I know that question is incorrect, but we've all heard of the AR-15 referred to as an Assault Rifle (That's what AR stands for right? RIGHT?)

Or you ask: "Should you, as a law abiding citizen, be able to purchase an AR-15?" Or just say "Hunting Rifle."

You could swing both ways on the last question: You've heard about the AR-15 due to it's use in mass shootings. Or you've heard of it because you own one, it being one of the most popular rifles today.

Americans are in favor of this ubiquitous idea of gun control. We don't want the "bad guys" to get guns/etc, but when it comes time to actually take a hard stance on what needs to be done, support tends to drop out for expanding the system. And support has bumped around a bit, from what I can find shows decreasing support for stricter gun control. It's gone up since 2013 (almost certainly due to Sandy Hook), but has dropped considerably since the crime waves of the early 90s.

It's like asking people about a U.S. Driver's License. Most people believe the average driver is a dumb-shit that needs to re-qualify or just get more training every X years. But actually going through with it? "I'm a good driver, why should I have to bother with that? Everyone else sucks, not me!"

Personally, even as a huge gun-nut (who's already bought near every gun I would ever want, so I can opt out of a lot), I have become increasingly in support of tougher gun control. But there are just much better areas to burn political capital to achieve the same result, if not better results: lower crime and murders.

Sure yea, maybe a mugger can't shoot me if he has no gun. But that "no gun" doesn't mean he suddenly does not need to commit crime to survive.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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TheFeniX wrote:It's like asking people about a U.S. Driver's License. Most people believe the average driver is a dumb-shit that needs to re-qualify or just get more training every X years. But actually going through with it? "I'm a good driver, why should I have to bother with that? Everyone else sucks, not me!"
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I don't hear very much about people clamoring for a federal issued driver license. Are there proposals for a federal DL (and disallowing state-issued DLs) that has tighter requirements for acquisition and renewal than the various states?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by Elheru Aran »

houser2112 wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:It's like asking people about a U.S. Driver's License. Most people believe the average driver is a dumb-shit that needs to re-qualify or just get more training every X years. But actually going through with it? "I'm a good driver, why should I have to bother with that? Everyone else sucks, not me!"
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I don't hear very much about people clamoring for a federal issued driver license. Are there proposals for a federal DL (and disallowing state-issued DLs) that has tighter requirements for acquisition and renewal than the various states?
He's saying that people respond to gun control proposals similarly to how they might respond to the idea that they should re-qualify to get a driver's license, if I read him correctly.

"I know how to use a gun/drive safely, why does this apply to me/why is this necessary?" basically.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by TheFeniX »

Elheru Aran wrote:
houser2112 wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:It's like asking people about a U.S. Driver's License. Most people believe the average driver is a dumb-shit that needs to re-qualify or just get more training every X years. But actually going through with it? "I'm a good driver, why should I have to bother with that? Everyone else sucks, not me!"
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I don't hear very much about people clamoring for a federal issued driver license. Are there proposals for a federal DL (and disallowing state-issued DLs) that has tighter requirements for acquisition and renewal than the various states?
He's saying that people respond to gun control proposals similarly to how they might respond to the idea that they should re-qualify to get a driver's license, if I read him correctly. "I know how to use a gun/drive safely, why does this apply to me/why is this necessary?" basically.
What he said.

Texas has had more than a few pushes over the past couple decades to revamp the Driver's Education system with limited success. And to be fair, experience DOES actually account for a lot of driver skill. However, no one who already has a driver's license wants to deal with relicensing, so Texas has had much more success pushing stricter driver's education on new drivers, while "grandfathering" already licensed individuals.

Basically, people want to feel safe, but they also don't want to be hassled.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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TheFeniX wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:
houser2112 wrote: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I don't hear very much about people clamoring for a federal issued driver license. Are there proposals for a federal DL (and disallowing state-issued DLs) that has tighter requirements for acquisition and renewal than the various states?
He's saying that people respond to gun control proposals similarly to how they might respond to the idea that they should re-qualify to get a driver's license, if I read him correctly. "I know how to use a gun/drive safely, why does this apply to me/why is this necessary?" basically.
What he said.

Texas has had more than a few pushes over the past couple decades to revamp the Driver's Education system with limited success. And to be fair, experience DOES actually account for a lot of driver skill. However, no one who already has a driver's license wants to deal with relicensing, so Texas has had much more success pushing stricter driver's education on new drivers, while "grandfathering" already licensed individuals.

Basically, people want to feel safe, but they also don't want to be hassled.
I guess I was hung up by your mention of a "U.S. Driver's License", which is not necessarily the same as having to re-license periodically.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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houser2112 wrote:I guess I was hung up by your mention of a "U.S. Driver's License", which is not necessarily the same as having to re-license periodically.
You're right, I misspoke: The U.S. has no national Driver's Education, just a reciprocity agreement with different states to honor all State Issued (though I guess also some territories, but I'm no expert) Driver's Licenses. Another difference being I can drive all over California, but own more than a few guns I'm near certain are illegal to bring into State. Whereas, a lot is talked about at the national level, there is more than a little Gun Control legislation at the state and local level.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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As far as I know, most of our neighboring states are good with a local CCP, but it's not constant, so you need to check. I just play it safe and don't carry out of state. Somebody wants to kill me at a wedding or funeral, we're going hands up.

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Soontir C'boath wrote:You are mixing different things together in a thread that has been changing. My reply was not to the original post, but the more recent one regarding Democratic tactics.
Sorry, I thought you were responding to my post directly above yours.
Flagg wrote:Because the sheer amount of gun related injuries and deaths in the United States is very high and treating them would be a drain on resources?
Gun-related deaths and injuries in the US aren't even in the same order of magnitude as the number of Americans affected severely by their lack of good health care.
I think you misunderstand. I was simply saying that a reason single payer and gun control can go together is due to the amount of gun related deaths and injuries.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Lonestar wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Because the sheer amount of gun related injuries and deaths in the United States is very high and treating them would be a drain on resources?
More minors die from ODing on drugs than firearm deaths. Certainly, more die from things like cancer or heart disease. More people probably die from drunk-driving related incidents than firearm related homicides.
Well the obvious hole in that argument is that there are dead people who never would have died from what you mention who do die from gun violence/accidents. But I'm not trying to actually push gun control, I simply gave an example of a liberal agenda issue that pairs well with single payer. I hope I don't need to point out that you can also make a greater push to deal with the issues you mentioned at the same time. But I'm not interested in a gun control debate. I'd rather eat a cactus with my no-teeth.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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I guess my point was one of those issues is going to bring out the single-issue voters more than the other. I think that there would be a net societal good if gun people didn't get out to vote on off year elections because they legitimately feared one of the parties was going to sharply curtail what is perceived to be their rights.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Raw Shark wrote:As far as I know, most of our neighboring states are good with a local CCP, but it's not constant, so you need to check. I just play it safe and don't carry out of state. Somebody wants to kill me at a wedding or funeral, we're going hands up.
If you're referencing my post: yes, that's also true. But I was referencing something like.... my CX4 which has a "swoop" in the design that attaches the stock to the grip. From talking to a Beretta salesman, this exists to "bypass" California's ban on pistol gripped short-barreled rifles. So, just ownership alone can be illegal depending on what state, or even city, you end up in. CCW/CCL need not apply.

This becomes another problem for the gun control side of the debate: we have examples of stricter gun control in places like Chicago with "no effect." Now, it's not that simple, but it's easily spun into the narrative of "They just took all the guns from us law abiding citizens and gave them to the criminals."

Personally, while some changes need to be made, the U.S. already has comprehensive gun control laws on the books, provided they are enforced. Anything more than what we have seemingly has no short-term benefit and arguable long-term ones. Like, the AWB ban COULD have dropped crime in the long run, but I've also seen credible evidence (I mean, I'm fairly certain it was) that switching to unleaded gas, the legalization of abortion, and the economic upswing during the later parts of the 90s did much more.

Meanwhile, guns aren't any harder to get and are in fact easier in some areas and yet crime continues to drop. So, I still posit that more gun control is a losing proposition.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Lonestar wrote:I guess my point was one of those issues is going to bring out the single-issue voters more than the other. I think that there would be a net societal good if gun people didn't get out to vote on off year elections because they legitimately feared one of the parties was going to sharply curtail what is perceived to be their rights.
Yeah, but the NRA pushes gun control fear anyway. I mean I guess maybe it's harder for them if they have to find file footage rather than recent statements.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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It didn't help that HRC and Obama both indicated they wanted to look at Australia as a way to solve gun violence/stop spree killings. That was a def "ho-ho-ho it's Christmas" set of moments.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Lonestar wrote:It didn't help that HRC and Obama both indicated they wanted to look at Australia as a way to solve gun violence/stop spree killings. That was a def "ho-ho-ho it's Christmas" set of moments.
Yeah. But at the same time the NRA wasn't just saying "even people on the terrorism watch list shouldn't be restricted from buying guns" they we pushing for more guns for everyone. And really, we still have the 2nd Amendment so an "Australia type" solution is laughably absurd.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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TheFeniX wrote:Meanwhile, guns aren't any harder to get and are in fact easier in some areas and yet crime continues to drop. So, I still posit that more gun control is a losing proposition.
Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. Like I said way back at the beginning of the thread, I am a proud gun-owning Democrat who thinks the party should abandon the issue.

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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TheFeniX wrote:Like, the AWB ban COULD have dropped crime in the long run, but I've also seen credible evidence (I mean, I'm fairly certain it was) that switching to unleaded gas, the legalization of abortion, and the economic upswing during the later parts of the 90s did much more.
I can see how an economic upswing might decrease crime, and maybe legal abortions, but unleaded gas?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Flagg wrote:
Lonestar wrote:It didn't help that HRC and Obama both indicated they wanted to look at Australia as a way to solve gun violence/stop spree killings. That was a def "ho-ho-ho it's Christmas" set of moments.
Yeah. But at the same time the NRA wasn't just saying "even people on the terrorism watch list shouldn't be restricted from buying guns" they we pushing for more guns for everyone. And really, we still have the 2nd Amendment so an "Australia type" solution is laughably absurd.
That anything like the no-fly list which is kept secret and there is no way to appeal to get off it?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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houser2112 wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:Like, the AWB ban COULD have dropped crime in the long run, but I've also seen credible evidence (I mean, I'm fairly certain it was) that switching to unleaded gas, the legalization of abortion, and the economic upswing during the later parts of the 90s did much more.
I can see how an economic upswing might decrease crime, and maybe legal abortions, but unleaded gas?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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houser2112 wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:Like, the AWB ban COULD have dropped crime in the long run, but I've also seen credible evidence (I mean, I'm fairly certain it was) that switching to unleaded gas, the legalization of abortion, and the economic upswing during the later parts of the 90s did much more.
I can see how an economic upswing might decrease crime, and maybe legal abortions, but unleaded gas?
Environmental lead exposure in infancy and early childhood leads to lifelong increases in criminality. Total brain volume gets smaller, and there is particulary poor connectivity in areas related to empathy and impulse control. Ever wonder why there was so much crime in cities, even in relatively affluent neighborhoods, that just seemed to all of a sudden stop? If you look at the crime curves and the uptake and reduction of leaded gas, they are almost exactly the same in a twenty year delay. And areas that banned lead in gas sooner had the crime rate drop sooner.

There was never such a big suburban crime wave because the traffic density was so much less. Lower overall exposure.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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houser2112 wrote:I can see how an economic upswing might decrease crime, and maybe legal abortions, but unleaded gas?
Lead is serious shit. In a Forbes link (the first is the direct line, but longer) summary: "Every country studied has shown this same strong correlation between leaded gasoline and violent crime rates. " "The bottom line, as Drum points out, is that "even moderately high levels of lead exposure are associated with aggressivity, impulsivity, ADHD, and lower IQ. And right there, you've practically defined the profile of a violent young offender.""

There's been historical research into the links between it and crazy/violent aristocracy over the years as, before switching to pewter. Then again, I'm no history buff and I'm not going to try and debate historical aspects of lead contamination.
Raw Shark wrote:Hey, you're preaching to the choir here. Like I said way back at the beginning of the thread, I am a proud gun-owning Democrat who thinks the party should abandon the issue.
Yea, I trailed off there like I always do and got into something unrelated. A big point I try to bring myself to look at for a given divisive issue (even if it's not personally divisive for me) is can you easily tie the negative and positive impacts to the issue?

It's like, kill the ACA and ask is there a giant net negative both short term and long term? Definitely. Even Republicans know this which is why they want to slowly phase us back to to good ol' days of "fuck em all" US healthcare. So, if they ease us into an ass-fucking, we'll take it easier.

Ban guns: will it drop crime? Maybe. Will it drop suicides? Maybe. Aussies had a small uptick in suicides over the next few years when their ban went into affect. Then it started dropping off considerably. Did "no guns" cause that? Maybe. Will it stop mass killings. Maybe. I got maybes, AT BEST.

That's what gun control is to me: a whole lot of "maybe" and I'll grant there are some "in this specific instance, it would likely help." But that's not good enough for me. Unlike the ties of violence to lead.
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