Democrats backing away from gun control

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Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by FireNexus »

For the love of God, please back away from this albatross of a losing issue already
Politico wrote:The progressive hope in Thursday’s special election to represent Montana’s at-large House district can be seen in an ad caressing a gun he lovingly calls “this old rifle.” In another spot, Democratic nominee Rob Quist pulls a shiny bullet from his barn coat pocket, locks and loads, and fires at a TV airing a spot questioning his Second Amendment bona fides. “I’ll protect your right to bear arms,” Quist pledges, “because it’s my right too.”

None of this is subtle, but Quist’s break with the Democratic Party platform hasn’t produced a peep from the activist left; the gun issue wasn’t even raised before MoveOn.org decided to endorse him. Are progressives knowingly practicing hard-headed electoral pragmatism? Or, as is more likely, are they ducking a divisive and frustrating issue for as long as possible, until another horrific mass shooting produces a fresh wave of outrage?

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Quist is not an isolated case. Progressives celebrated the spirited run in Kansas’ fourth congressional district made by Democrat James Thompson, who brandished an assault weapon as he pledged to “fight for our personal freedoms.” They have not been bothered by Jon Ossoff’s avoidance of the gun issue in his bid to represent Georgia’s sixth congressional district. When asked about his gun control position during an online interview with a Democratic activist, Ossoff stressed that he “grew up with firearms” before airily offering his support for hypothetical legislation that would “help keep people safe and uphold the Second Amendment.” And he avoids the issue entirely on his website. (Ossoff did come out against Georgia’s new law permitting concealed weapons on public college campuses, however.)

The “big tent” mentality among progressives today only seems to apply to guns. Ideological flexibility was not on display when the Democratic National Committee and Sen. Bernie Sanders endorsed an Omaha mayoral candidate with an anti-abortion voting record. NARAL Pro-Choice America excoriated the move in a blistering statement, warning the party not to turn “its back on reproductive freedom.” In response, party chair Tom Perez hastily declared that reproductive rights are “not negotiable and should not change city by city or state by state.”

(Quist and Ossoff have both backed abortion rights, but neither may be taking much of a political risk. Libertarian-flavored Montana has a solid pro-choice majority according to a 50-state Pew Research Center poll. Georgia’s sixth district is heavily college-educated, and there is strong correlation between college degrees and support for abortion.)

Sanders also wasn’t inclined to cut Ossoff any slack regarding his economic platform. To reach right-leaning voters in his district, Ossoff emphasizes his support for “cutting wasteful spending” and does not embrace single-payer health care or free tuition. When it came to Mello, Sanders defended the endorsement on the grounds of political geography, “If you are running in rural Mississippi, do you hold the same criteria as if you’re running in San Francisco?” But when it came to Ossoff,
Sanders sniffed, “He’s not a progressive,” before belatedly offering an endorsement under duress.

NARAL and Sanders have a strong incentive to protect their agendas from Machiavellian strategists. They want to prove that their platforms are not political albatrosses in the red-state districts Democrats hope to reconquer. And they don’t want their issues to become second-class priorities, easily sacrificed when the going gets rough.

Which is exactly what is happening to gun control, and not for the first time.

***

Democrats have been squeamish about gun control ever since they felt the backlash to President Bill Clinton’s enactment of a ban on assault weapons and “Brady Law” background checks, which shouldered some blame for the Democratic loss of Congress in 1994. But 2000 presidential nomine Al Gore doubled down. In the wake of the 1999 Columbine massacre and a liberal primary challenge from New Jersey Sen. Bill Bradley, Gore ran on a robust gun control package that included a ban on cheap handguns. When he lost gun-friendly states that Clinton had won—namely Arkansas, West Virginia and his own home state of Tennessee—guns were blamed again.

Soon after, Democrats began keeping their voices down about gun control, even when mass shootings occurred. The Republican Congress let Clinton’s assault weapons ban expire without a vote, but Democrats didn’t fight exceptionally hard. Former Vermont Governor Howard Dean touted his “A” rating from the NRA during the 2004 presidential primary. The nominee that year, John Kerry, futilely tried to pick off Ohio, and leaven his support for reinstating the assault weapons ban, with an October goose hunting expedition.

Downplaying gun control finally paid off for Democrats in the 2006 midterms, when four Senate candidates (in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Montana and Missouri) and more than a dozen House candidates used pro-gun rhetoric to win their seats and help the party take control of Congress. The results affirmed the strategy laid out in the 2006 book “Whistling Past Dixie” by political scientist Thomas Schaller, who argued that while “God, guns and gays” was too much for Democrats to overcome in the socially conservative South, tacking rightward on guns would earn Democrats a hearing from relatively libertarian voters in the Midwest and interior West.

Barack Obama took that cue in 2008. When the Supreme Court decreed that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, Obama said the ruling tracked his views: “I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms … I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne.” His path to victory ran through several states with significant gun ownership: Ohio, Nevada, Colorado, Virginia, Indiana and North Carolina.

The rhetorical strategy had real-world impact. Gun-shy Democrats did not pursue gun control legislation in Obama’s first term, even though those years were marked by the mass shootings at Fort Hood, Rep. Gabby Giffords’ Tucson constituent meeting and the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado. Seeing no reason to junk a winning game plan, Obama kept gun control out of the 2012 election, and he held on to most of his gains in the Midwest and interior West.

Then came the gut-wrenching horror of the December 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre, and looking away became untenable. Obama made a fateful decision to temporarily shelve plans for a full-court press on immigration reform in favor of one on guns.

Still scarred by the past, Democrats set their sights low: They aimed to pass expanded background checks, not a fresh assault weapons ban and certainly not a handgun ban (even though 80 percent of gun deaths are from handguns.) Anti-gun activists “got smart,” according to The Atlantic, using the phrase “preventing gun violence” instead of “gun control” and showering praise on “law-abiding gun owners.” A bipartisan duo, both previously endorsed by the NRA, crafted the background check bill. Yet the effort still ran into a brick wall of NRA opposition, and four red-state Democratic senators joined most Republicans in a successful filibuster. Obama ended up with neither a gun control law nor an immigration reform law.

Republicans suffered no consequences from their obstruction, taking nine Democratically held Senate seats, mainly in red states, to win full control of Congress in the 2014 midterms. Undeterred, 2016 Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton ran on the most explicitly pro-gun control platform since 2000, calculating that it would help her against Sanders in the primary and betting that Sandy Hook had changed the political equation for the general election.

It did not. As OpenSecrets reported after the 2016 election, “the NRA’s investment, which was more than any other outside group, paid for a slew of ads that directly targeted the same voters who propelled Trump to victory.”

Committed gun control activists may not be inclined to attribute Clinton’s loss to her stance on guns—after all, there were a myriad of other factors behind her loss and polls show broad support for expanded background checks. Yet there have always been strong poll numbers for specific gun control proposals, and the NRA wins time and time again. Clearly, the polling data is not giving us the full picture.

Bill Clinton delivered that warning weeks after Sandy Hook to a room of Democratic donors: “All these polls that you see saying the public is for us on all these issues — they are meaningless if they’re not voting issues.” The Arkansan further explained the cultural significance of guns in rural America, “A lot of these people … all they’ve got is their hunting and their fishing. Or they’re living in a place where they don’t have much police presence. Or they’ve been listening to this stuff for so long that they believe it all.” North Carolina’s John Edwards summed it up more succinctly during his 2004 presidential bid: “Where I come from guns are about a lot more than guns themselves. They are about independence.”

If you thought that the urbanization of America would lead to a decline in hunting culture and a loosening of our attachment to guns, you’re half right. The percent of American households with a gun has ticked down in the last 20 years from 25 percent to 22 percent. And hunting is no longer the primary reason why people buy firearms.

But the gun industry and its allies have merely changed strategies. As the New York Times explained, following a landmark study of gun ownership by Harvard and Northeastern universities last fall, “A declining rural population and waning interest in hunting have pushed gun companies to look for new customers. Industry groups have heavily marketed the idea of concealed carry and personal protection.” Now 63 percent of gun owners, gripped by fear of criminals and terrorists, cite personal protection as their rationale for exercising their Second Amendment right. There’s scant evidence that owning guns actually makes them safer. But when the NRA says even the littlest gun control measure is a step toward taking away their guns, their protection, their independence, they believe it.

Democratic operatives eager to expand the political map, and economic populists hungry to build a broad coalition, are tempted to jettison gun control all over again. And if Quist and Ossoff win, they’ll have a strong case. But are Democrats across the board really resigned to sweeping America’s gun violence problem under the rug?

The gubernatorial primary in Virginia, an increasingly suburban and diverse state with memories of the 2007 Virginia Tech mass shooting, suggests otherwise.

In a mirror image of the 2016 presidential primary, the establishment Democrat, Lt. Governor Ralph Northam, is trying to fend off a progressive insurgent, former Rep. Tom Perriello, by hitting him for past flirtations with the NRA. In 2008, Perriello was one of those pro-gun rights Democrats when he ousted a Republican incumbent in a right-leaning district. But his NRA rating didn’t protect him from his Obamacare vote and he was quickly sent home. Now running statewide, Perriello has turned on the NRA, while Northam argues his efforts for gun control measures in the wake of the Virginia Tech killings prove his credibility on the issue.

It has been easier for Quist and Ossoff to keep their distance from gun control without angering progressives because America hasn’t suffered a major mass shooting since last June’s Orlando nightclub massacre. (Public mass shootings are far from the main cause of America’s gun deaths, but they are what grabs the public’s attention.) When a mass shooting is fresh in the public mind, Democrats feel a sense of urgency. But memories can be short.

However, the lull won’t last. America didn’t go a year between public mass shootings of more than five people throughout the entire Obama presidency (including the 12-and-a-half month span between the misogynistic Isla Vista rampage of May 2014 and the racist Charleston murders of June 2015). It’s been almost a year since Orlando. There will be another.

At that point, Democrats won’t be able to sweep the gun issue under the rug. They will have to make a choice: to be or not to be the party of gun control. And if they are still going to be party committed to reducing gun violence, they had best not waste time figuring out how to do it.

Bill Scher is a contributing editor to Politico Magazine, and co-host of the Bloggingheads.tv show “The DMZ.”
If Democrats would just ditch gun control for the more-or-less correct but ultimately losing and fruitless issue it is, they might actually win some red districts. It's the ultimate "support it despite it never having a chance of passing" issue that "mainstream" Dems support. And we made fun of Sanders Bros for their untenable positions on a lot of different issues despite being totally unwilling to dump it.

I don't want guns to be as accessible as they are, but I'm not delusional enough to expect my desire to become law. Nor to advertise it to swing voters who might not be supportive of it.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Won't happen. The hardcore urban liberals like Clinton will keep it from happening.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Literally already happening in some rural districts. Predicting it won't happen doesn't change that.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Speaking as a gun-owning progressive, I think it's about time. The Democrats need to cut this dead weight and fight battles that they can actually win. I live in a city where I walked down the sketchiest street as a responsible citizen with a weapon on my hip openly-carried (Guess what? Nobody fucked with me) and fired off a couple of magazines at the range last night just because I was a little stressed out, without breaking a single law, and I fully agree with that. An armed society is a polite society.

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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If the Democrats move away from gun control, will they have any new policies for dealing with gun related deaths, or are they just deemed "not popular enough to address?"
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Gandalf wrote:If the Democrats move away from gun control, will they have any new policies for dealing with gun related deaths, or are they just deemed "not popular enough to address?"
Gun-related deaths can be addressed separately from gun ownership. Having a gun is a lot different from actually shooting somebody, the latter of which is still illegal under most circumstances.

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Raw Shark wrote:Gun-related deaths can be addressed separately from gun ownership. Having a gun is a lot different from actually shooting somebody, which is still illegal under most circumstances.
It's really hard to shoot someone without a gun. So if they're not going to control the guns, what policy would they propose to stop bullets going fatally into ten thousand odd people a year?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Gandalf wrote:It's really hard to shoot someone without a gun. So if they're not going to control the guns, what policy would they propose to stop bullets going fatally into ten thousand odd people a year?
What policy would they propose to stop somebody beating somebody else to death with the chair I'm sitting on, or the hammer in the drawer next to me? In my humble opinion, the law should focus more on, "Don't murder people," than the exact method.

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Gandalf wrote:If the Democrats move away from gun control, will they have any new policies for dealing with gun related deaths, or are they just deemed "not popular enough to address?"
Attempting to address the issue has so far done fuckall to actually fix the problem for decades. It only got better such as it has when violent crime as a whole dropped. And it has demonstrably hampered Dems up and down the ballot and hurt their other goals which also keep people from dying.

It's sucks ass that the gun control problem is unsolvable at this time. But pointing to the dead people like continuing to lose ground due to the issue does them any good isn't a good argument against backing away.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Gandalf wrote:
Raw Shark wrote:Gun-related deaths can be addressed separately from gun ownership. Having a gun is a lot different from actually shooting somebody, which is still illegal under most circumstances.
It's really hard to shoot someone without a gun. So if they're not going to control the guns, what policy would they propose to stop bullets going fatally into ten thousand odd people a year?
They have been comically unsuccessful in controlling guns. This argument is basically the same as "It's hard to get Syphillis without having sex". If you can't actually expect to prevent sex, it's a meaningless point even though it's technically correct.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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FireNexus wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Raw Shark wrote:Gun-related deaths can be addressed separately from gun ownership. Having a gun is a lot different from actually shooting somebody, which is still illegal under most circumstances.
It's really hard to shoot someone without a gun. So if they're not going to control the guns, what policy would they propose to stop bullets going fatally into ten thousand odd people a year?
They have been comically unsuccessful in controlling guns. This argument is basically the same as "It's hard to get Syphillis without having sex". If you can't actually expect to prevent sex, it's a meaningless point even though it's technically correct.
You can theoretically expect to control guns. Australia and I think Germany both managed to go from having plenty of guns in circulation to much stricter gun control successfully.

Admittedly it's harder to do culturally in America.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Crazedwraith wrote:Admittedly it's harder to do culturally in America.
Which is the whole point. I'm not saying nobody can control guns anywhere or in America at any point in time. I'm saying that today and for the foreseeable future I'm the US, it's a lost cause in an obvious way.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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The only way Americans are going to give up their guns is if we start seeing way more terrorist attacks using them. Americans love to give up their rights to "fight" terrorists.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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There is a lot of money going for gun control. If someone gives me $25 million to spout some shit for them, I'd do it from my gold plated Prius all day every day.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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FireNexus wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Admittedly it's harder to do culturally in America.
Which is the whole point. I'm not saying nobody can control guns anywhere or in America at any point in time. I'm saying that today and for the foreseeable future I'm the US, it's a lost cause in an obvious way.
Fair point.

Kelp wrote:There is a lot of money going for gun control. If someone gives me $25 million to spout some shit for them, I'd do it from my gold plated Prius all day every day.

Interesting. Intuitively, I'd have thought the situation was the opposite that there's a lot more money in gun lobbyists?

Who'd be making money from gun control?
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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etA: fudge, double post.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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FireNexus wrote:The only way Americans are going to give up their guns is if we start seeing way more terrorist attacks using them. Americans love to give up their rights to "fight" terrorists.
I doubt it then, if anything it might drive up gun sales both because of fears of a ban and because of fears of needing to stand strong against the terroristic hordes.

Though I suppose part of that goes back into culture of America. Compared to Europe and Australia I'd say Americans are far more individualistic then them, far less likely to give up their supposed individual protection in favor of supposed societal safety (I say supposed for both because for some guns won't make them any safer because of a lack of will to use them or a lack of need and supposed societal safety because just deleted guns doesn't move into the trash folder the problems that create gun violence, too often gun violence is looked at the problem itself rather then a symptom but thats a whole other thing).

And to be fair there is for some reasons, good reasons, to not trust in da cops. Either abuse of power or lack of timely arrival certainly are concerns for some people. They won't want to give up their firearms because they probably aren't going to see the benefits of only having the police or criminals armed and the police being minutes away when seconds count when you can even count on them.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Crazedwraith wrote:Interesting. Intuitively, I'd have thought the situation was the opposite that there's a lot more money in gun lobbyists?

Who'd be making money from gun control?
There are well-funded interest groups on both sides of the issue. But The anti gun control people vote on the issue, the pro gun control people don't really. And since the anti folks tend to have their power amplified geographically, and the pro people who do vote on the issue get their powered muted by the same process, the anti folks get a buff to their political importance as long as we keep our shitty current system.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Joun_Lord wrote:Tag!
The people who have legitimate reason to fear or mistrust the police have their right to own guns removed by the other consequences of the factors that lead to same. There isn't a lot of overlap between people who fear state power enough to arm themselves and people who have good reason to fear state power in this country.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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FireNexus wrote:The people who have legitimate reason to fear or mistrust the police have their right to own guns removed by the other consequences of the factors that lead to same. There isn't a lot of overlap between people who fear state power enough to arm themselves and people who have good reason to fear state power in this country.
This is a pretty solid point. Also of note: minorities benefit from Stand Your Ground laws more than whites do per capita. This however, due to the way crime works here, means more are killed as a matter of course because of it. (NOTE: most U.S. crime is intraracial and stays within or near economic backgrounds as well).

Better education, better safety nets, better economy (or at least one where the better mean more and higher paying jobs), rehabilitating criminals (the U.S., I believe has the highest (or one of) recidivism rates in the 1st world), rather than just incarcerating, and combating racism will do more than banning handguns or making them harder to get.

But helping people like that costs a pretty penny, even compared to a universal background check system. And this is provided you want to fight crime other than mass murders.

And I'm actually in favor of stricter background checks WRT firearms and other such controls, but even for me it's hard not to peg Democrats using that as a precursor for a gun grab.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Helping people like that is costly, but also beneficial. Our economic growth is hobbled by the failure of racial minorities to be properly cared for. Prime age men end up incarcerated or unemployable, and all of the economic power and innovation they could provide by getting a little chunk of the American dream (see Asian Americans, who open businesses and work in high end stem jobs and all around make their surroundings thrive because most of the old timey racism and institutional discrimination against them had burned itself out by the time the current huge wave of Asian immigration (south, west, and east) started pouring in. Asians aren't better than hispanics or blacks, they just face less systemic obstruction to pursuing prosperity.

Maybe that's a different discussion, though. But diversity has only ever done well for anywhere I've worked. And my black coworkers are routinely easier to work with and more intelligent than the white coworkers when controlling for education level. That could just be white privelege letting dumber folks climb the ladder, though.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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FireNexus wrote:The only way Americans are going to give up their guns is if we start seeing way more terrorist attacks using them. Americans love to give up their rights to "fight" terrorists.
Experience tells us otherwise, because we have been getting a bunch of terrorist attacks using guns, and it has resulted in absolutely nothing, even for measures that are supported by both non-gun owners and responsible gun owners. When it's a white terrorist, what typically happens is that some people on TV will cluck their tongues and talk about how we need better mental health care, or we shouldn't report the shooters' names to avoid inspiring copycats (while going into great detail about the shooters' life story), or that this is just another isolated incident that keeps happening every week, or that video games/movies/rock and roll music glorify violence, etc., before quietly dropping the subject and never doing anything about any of those things, while the Alex Joneses of the world will claim that nobody was actually killed and it was all staged by paid actors of the Democrats/Illuminati/Lizard People in order to take away everyone's guns. When it's a non-white terrorist, then troglodytes will come out of the woodwork to use it as justification for their desire to purge Muslims from the country, or defend aggressive and militant police behavior in black neighborhoods, or call for deporting anyone with a Spanish-sounding name and building a wall to keep out anyone darker than Tilda Swinton.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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Gandalf wrote:If the Democrats move away from gun control, will they have any new policies for dealing with gun related deaths, or are they just deemed "not popular enough to address?"
The Democrats have a suite of policies that deal with poverty and crime (causes of gun murders) and untreated or poorly treated mental illness (causes of gun suicides). Many of them fall under the heading of 'never tried,' so it would be premature to criticize the Democrats for not doing enough about the issue.
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

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I don't believe that this is politically necessary. From what I recall of the polls on this issue, the majority, the vast majority, of the American public supports some degree of greater gun control. And it is absolutely galling that the Democratic leadership is apparently trying to once more run to the Right in the face of defeat, especially when the opposition here does not have popular support- this is just a case of the gun lobby having the Congress by the balls.

That's not to say that this is an essential issue that the Democrats must not compromise on ever, but its also not, to my mind, one we need to completely retreat from. Frankly, I think that its become a somewhat less crucial issue of late, at least at the national level (it may be very crucial in some areas, I'll allow). So follow your conscience, and hold whatever position you damn well please on it. The single-issue gun voters are not likely to vote Democrat, ever.

And again, I also don't think that we lost 2016 on any single issue, or group of issues. Certainly every little bit helps, but we lost, frankly, because of a biased system, unprecedented interference, and because, however qualified she might have been to be President, Hillary Clinton's personal baggage and lack of charisma made her a God-awful candidate.

Also, while off the main topic, I can't help but note the OP's completely gratuitous referencing of the "Bernie Bros" narrative (a slur that was promoted expressly for the purpose of portraying Sanders supporters as misogynists). So speaking of losing issues that (some) Democrats need to drop... gratuitously insulting Sanders supporters is definitely one of them.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
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Re: Democrats backing away from gun control

Post by MKSheppard »

Simon_Jester wrote:Literally already happening in some rural districts. Predicting it won't happen doesn't change that.
A (D) from Montana having actual influence in a party full of LA and NY political leaders? Surely you jest. :lol:
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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